tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC January 7, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PST
the breaking news tonight that nbc news is reporting that one of the terror suspects in the attack today in paris is dead. and the other two have been arrested. that's good news. our coverage continues now on "all in" with chris hayes. tonight on "all in," an attack in paris leaves 12 dead. gunmen open fire on the offices of the satirical magazine "charlie hebdo" tonight as the french fill the streets in protests, the latest from paris on the hunt for the gunmen. what we know about why this magazine and thee cartoonists were targeted again and again and what this attack means for free speech around the world. "all in" starts right now.
good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. a senior u.s. counterterrorism official tells nbc that at this hour one suspect has been killed and two other suspects is were in custody following today's attack on a french satirical magazine in which 12 people were killed. earlier this evening a police operation was under way in reims, northeast of paris, with police overhead in helicopters. french officials had just hours ago identified three men as suspects in the massacre. two brothers in their early 30s, said and sherif kouachi as well as an accomplice hamid mourai. one told the associated press the suspects were tied to a yemeni terror group, however no group has claimed responsibility for the attack. joining me with the latest pete williams. what do we know about who these people are? >> to be fair we just don't
know exactly what the situation is in france tonight. well into the middle of the night. there have been conflicting reports all afternoon about whether an arrest had been made the deputy mayor of paris thought someone was under arrest, then he said no that wasn't true. we were told earlier this evening that from two u.s. counterterrorism officials that one person was dead and two have been arrested but there are other u.s. officials that say they haven't been told that. the french aren't saying much. there's a natural desire by u.s. officials not to get out ahead of the french. so i think in fairness, chris, we have to say we just don't know exactly what the situation is there tonight. this has been something of a moving picture all day long about precisely what the status of them is. so i think we can't say with 100% certainty what the deal is over there right now. there are conflicting reports,
as i think the honest answer. as for who they are, the french authorities have decided not to release the names themselves, but the names have been out there. two brothers from paris, ages 34 and 32 and another younger person aged 18. one of the older two had been arrested by the french nine years ago and charged with trying to recruit people to fight against u.s. soldiers in iraq. he was convicted and served about a year and a half in prison. so he's someone known to the french, although u.s. officials tell us tonight that there is -- they found in going back and scrubbing through the intelligence, no warning that this attack was coming against this newspaper in paris. >> we also -- we do know it was three assailants. we can see from the videos that they were able to escape. there was a very active man hunt. are we under the impression that
at this hour they at least have identified the location of those individuals or is that still not definitively confirmed? >> i think we can say safely that they keep getting information about where they are, they keep searching those places but the french haven't yet confirmed that they have found them or that they've arrested them or that they've shot anybody. this was information, we understand, from french authorities to u.s. officials here, but there is uncertainty about that tonight and i think we just can't report with any confidence precisely what the situation is. >> pete williams thank you very much. let's go bill neely, chief global correspondent who is live in paris tonight. what is the latest in paris at this hour? >> yeah chris, just to back up what pete was saying it's 2:00 in the morning here. and we've been unable to get any confirmation from french officials of a shoot-out either
in reims, which is 90 miles northeast of here or anywhere else, but the french police were slow earlier today when french media and indeed on social media the names of the three suspects including the two brothers were circulating. the french police took a very very long time before they would confirm those names. so it may well be seven hours from now in the early hours of tomorrow morning before the french police say anything new about this manhunt. >> my understanding is that the scene in paris tonight was a lot of people flooding the streets as a sign of solidarity and mourning and grief and defiance. what is the mood in the country now? the prime minister, of course the president has declared a day of mourning tomorrow. what is the mood like? >> yes, french president francois hollande declared a day of mourning. flags will fly at half-staff for
three days. he said the country was in a state of shock. i think that's no exaggeration. it mi beght be too much of an exaggeration i heard today that this is france's 9/11. i don't think the casualty figures bear that out. but there's a great sense of shock here. this is the worst terrorist attack in france since 1961 so 54 years ago. and that was at the height of the algerian war. it's also because it was seen as such a soft target. i mean these are journalists and cartoonists who tried to make people laugh. one of them was 80 years old. i knew him. i've got one of his books on my book shelf at home wolenski. n tens of thousands of people in solidarity with the magazine many of them holding up posters
that says je suis charlie, i am charlie too, the magazine "charlie hando." in order to stand up to these killers, we must unite as a nation. . french imams including the main imam from the main mosque here in paris have condemned this attack saying this does not represent islam. these are not true muslims. >> bill neely live in paris, thank you very much. appreciate it. french president francois hollande declared tomorrow a national day of mourning as thousands took to the streets in paris, many expressing solidarity with the publ ligs "charlie hando" carrying signs saying "i am charlie." officials raised the terror alert to the highest level. 16 police forces as well as military police groups were deployed throughout the paris region. the manhunt began immediately
after the deadly attack this morning in paris. at 11:30 a.m. local time in paris, a van pulled up in front of the building housing the french satirical magazine "charlie hebdo." at least two masked assailants armed with automatic weapons entered the building. the magazine was in middle of its editorial meeting. the gunmen opened fire indiscriminately. >> translator: they went inside the offices. it's like a butcher's inside there now. there's so many dead. one of my colleagues is in a critical condition. >> the attack lasted just minutes. meanwhile journalists and neighbors took refuge on the roof. >> those who had been in nearby offices scrambled on to roof tops to escape. what fear must have gripped them. their phones captured the sight and sounds of the killers below.
this was the day militants brought terror to paris. >> at the office the attackers killed 11 people including 8 journalists a maintenance worker and a guest in the office. after the attack they fled. witnesses say they yelled allahu akbar and we have avenged the prophet mohammed. police exchanged gunfire three times. during the last exchange video shows a gunman killing an injured policeman who said no no as he was shot at close range. before the attackers drove away one carefully picked up a shoe before getting into a black car. they continued on into a paris suburb where they abandoned the vehicle and hijacked another car. >> this eyewitness came and said the car stopped here armed men
got out on the pavement and a threatening man had guns and what looked like a bazooka. they took another car and then left and blocked everything. >> in total, 12 people are dead 11 people are injured, 4 critically. the magazine "charlie hebdo" had been a target of extremists for years. it's part of a long-standing tradition of french satirical magazines taking aim at the political establishment, organized religion but the repeated depictions of the prophet mohammed put the magazine and the staff under the threat of violence for nearly a decade. in 2006 the magazine republished cartoons of mohammed from a danish newspaper. the offices were firebombed in 2011 after it named mohammed as its editor in chief for the week's issue. the following year it published an illustration of mohammed naked. that prompted the french government to temporarily close embassies around the globe. but none of those events caused
the people behind "charlie hebdo" to stray from the mission including the editor stephane charbonnier. >> it is not to defend freedom of speech but without freedom of speech we are dead. we can't live in a country without freedom of speech. i prefer to die than live like a rat. >> his last cartoon, earry prophetic. >> but the figure of the armed militants replies, wait till the end of january before you get a gift from us. >> today charb was among those killed. hours after the attack, the "charlie hebdo" website published this statement, je je suis charlie, i am charlie. joining me is the editor of
huffington post. what are the streets of paris like tonight? >> but there was a big rally at the end of the day because the emotion is really big about this situation situation, including the police. >> there's obviously the three gunmen remain at large, and yet -- and there's concerns about security, i'm sure but it seems that parisians were taking to the streets to kind of express defiance at least from the images i saw. >> yeah. there was defiance but it was a picture of solidarity and to show that they were really defending freedom of speech.
it was more that than defiance. it was a symbol of solidarity and to show that we are together. >> has the murder of these journalists and cartoonists, also a police officer and maintenance worker is the country reacting in a kind of united fashion or has it been -- obviously the magazine itself was polarizing. i wonder if there's been a polarized response to it or is everyone fairly united in grief and outrage? >> no no right now it's really -- there's a big, big showing of unity from political persons also from representatives. it's really a big, big unity now. >> there was, i saw, a statement issued by the grand mosque in paris absolutely condemning the attack. i've seen a number of parisian
muslims, french muslims other muslim institutions there also condemning it. obviously, they had nothing to do with this but it does seem noteworthy in this context how unanimous that has been as well. >> yes, there was a debate at some point on some drawings but now what happens this morning, nobody can accept it. freedom of speech is something that is really universal in france and even if there has been debate on some details right now everybody is unified. >> thanks very much. seems like many countries have gotten good at defending against major terrorist attacks but not smaller scale ones. why is that? and is it even possible to do so? and we'll talk about all that ahead. and the 45 highway mpg tdi clean diesel.
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the cartoonist and journalists at "charlie hebdo" were doing. ♪ welcome to the most social car we've ever designed. the all-new nissan murano. nissan. innovation that excites. your mom's got your back. your friends have your back. your dog's definitely got your back. but who's got your back when you need legal help? we do. we're legalzoom, and over the last 10 years we've helped millions of people protect their families and run their businesses. we have the right people on-hand to answer your questions, backed by a trusted network of attorneys. so visit us today for legal help you can count on.
legalzoom. legal help is here. one thing you cannot say about the deadly terror attack is no one saw it comes. the offices were under police ro tekz. they were fire bombed after the magazine carried a caricature of the prophet mohammed. and al qaeda's branch in yemen instructed followers to kill stephane charbonnier in the form of a wanted poster in its online magazine with the headline yes, we can, a bullet a day keeps the
in infidel away. stephen char bon yea was killed in today's attack. there are some slaters, these were attacks involving a small number of assailants using guns and little else whose actions did not require a high level of coordination necessary to pull off a larger scale mass casualty, a bombing like those in london or madrid. america and many other nations have appeared to develop a whole range of techniques to combat such large scale attacks. something one man or a small group armed with a gun or even just a vehicle that seemed a different sort of challenge. joining me now is joint terrorism task force assistant special agent in charge don berelli. let's start with what conclusion we may be able to draw from the individuals involved as they walked through the streets. >> right.
so this one seems like it's a beth of an in betweener. definitely more training more sophistication that some of these one-off lone wolves like we saw in australia and canada but maybe not the level of sophistication that we saw with a 9/11 attack or a london bombing, for example. they did seem to move very methodically tactically seemed like they had a good idea of where they were going, may not exactly but probably had done some reconnaissance. i would imagine that there had been reconnaissance done on this building, probably had some information from the inside, and the fact that they were not deterred by police. i mean most people that are going to attack a soft target will see a police car and say, let's back off and find a different soft target. >> right right. they went ahead and went for it even knowing that they were likely going to engage police activity. >> and exchange fire several times with police murdered a police officer up close in cold
blood. what is the investigative trail you follow if you're the french authorities right now? i mean obviously, you have to find them. that's the most important thing. >> you're going to want to build this whole timeline and this network. you're going to -- not just the people involved in this attack but who are their circle of influence, their friends, their families, where did they travel? it appears they did get some training. where did they get the training where did they get the weapons, who financed them? was this their idea was it somebody else's idea? a lot more questions than answers right now. but these are the pieces of the puzzle that the french with the help of the rest of their allies are going to want to put together to figure out are there more of these out there? is this one cell of many or is this a one off? >> we have seen these attacks, she's sort of lone wolf attacks or even in the boston bombing situation, which again the suspects named here two of them are brothers of course that was the case in the boston bombing, in which you have essentially
disaffected violent militants who plot internally and pull something off, right? is it the case that essentially the most we can hope for for a sort of security apparatus is to prevent large scale mass casualty events but that is an order of magnitude to prevent something like this on a soft target with a small number of conspirators if that's what it proves to be? >> it is very difficult. you strive to have 100%. >> of course. >> but the reality of living in a free society, especially one where guns are available, and you don't even need guns. >> canada one individual who apparently still slight ambiguity, used a car. >> so whatever. if somebody is really that committed to an act of violence even if it's just a one person against, you know a police officer or whatever then it's very very difficult to stop in a society where, you know we have freedoms and openness and
freedom to express, you know our opinions and all these type of things. we don't live in a police state. that's the price we pay. unfortunately, sometimes is that we cannot find everybody that's committed to an act of violence. >> there are some reports indicating that -- well there are several reports indicating that one of the suspects involved here was previously convicted on charges of attempting to join the insurgency in iraq that he actually served time. what is your knowledge, the degree to which the law enforcement officials have a handle on you know people that have connections to networks that might produce such an attack? >> again, it's very difficult because once somebody's in the system and then they get out, you're looking at do you follow them 24 hours a day. you can't. that's very very resource intensive. >> also presumably there's a judicial argument someone's convicted and they served their time. >> exactly. but you try to build a network
of intelligence that would be people in the community, people that kind of are your eyes and ears. there are other technical surveillance. there's a lot of things you can do, again, all within the legal framework. >> how long can you -- i mean i have to say, surprised that they have not been apprehended as of yet when you consider the amount of resources that are being thrown as something like this. how long can you imagine plausibly they will be able to stay outside? >> with today's social media and crowd sourcing the information, i think not all that long. maybe they are in custody. i guess there's ambiguity about what the official status is. but once the names are released and people say, i know that person -- >> or i've seen their pictures. >> i've seen their picture. like we saw in boston it was very soon after the photos were released that the information was flooding in. and that's likely what's happening right now in france if in fact if they're maybe not
already in custody. >> don borelli, thank you very much for your time. what seems to be a near-miss terror attack here in the u.s. i know i have an 810 fico score, thanks to the tools and help on experian.com. and your big idea is hot dogs shaped like hamburgers? nope. hamburgers shaped like hot dogs. that's not really in our wheelhouse... you don't put it in a wheelhouse. you put it in your mouth. get your credit swagger on. become a member of experian credit tracker and find out your fico score powered by experian. fico scores are used in 90% of credit decisions. alright, so this tylenol arthritis lasts 8 hours, but aleve can last 12 hours... and aleve is proven to work better on pain than tylenol arthritis. so why am i still thinking about this? how are you? aleve, proven better on pain.
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ncacp building. a statement, we are investigating all potential motives at this time and an act of domestic terrorism is certainly one possibility. there's very little damage to the office building. it also houses a barber shop. thankfully nobody was hurt. but thins could have been much worse. the finn said a gas can had been placed next to the device but did not ignite during the explosion. yesterday's attack happened in broad daylight while volunteers were working inside a local chapter of america's oldest civil rights organization. although it is not yet known if the motive behind the home-made explosive was a hate crime, the fbi is quoted as saying we believe it was deliberately set. a hate crime is one possibility. if the attack does in fact turn out to be an attempted act of terrorism or a crime, it would not be the first time the naacp has been targeted. in 1989 what was described as a tear gas mail bomb attack the naacp's atlanta offices injured eight people including an infant. and of course there's medgar
evers to became the first field officer in mississippi who was assassinated in 1963. congressman and civil rights icon john lewis said i'm deeply troubled by the bombing in colorado. it reminds me of another period. these stories cannot be swept under the rug, #naacpbombing. jesse, what is the latest as of this hour? >> we still don't know too much beyond what the fbi said yesterday. i spoke to an fbi spokeswoman this morning who basically said that they weren't ready to release any new details in the case. i was down there this morning at the naacp office and at the barber shop, that building the federal investigators were gone all the evidence had been taken away. and except for some minor damage to the building you wouldn't really know the attack actually happened. >> did anyone see this happen when it happened? and is that how the description of the person of interest came
about? >> yeah. i mean it's unclear if there was a direct witness to the actual explosion. what i was basically told was that there were some neighbors that saw this person of interest fleeing from the area after the explosion happened. but this happened in broad daylight. a really nice day down in colorado springs. this naacp office is not in a strip mall it's in a small community, there's lots of people around, lots of people heard the blast. >> is the understanding that the item that ignited was placed next to a gasoline can, the can was there as an improvised explosive device intending to create a much larger explosion? >> i think that's what the fbi has been alluding to but again i think it's really important to mention that the fbi hasn't definitively said that the naacp was the target of what appears to be an intentional explosion. there was this barber shop there. i spoke with the barber today. he said i have no enemies. there's no way this was me.
the overall feeling is that this was targeted at the naacp, but i think it's important to mention that there hasn't been official word yet saying that the naacp office there was the direct target. >> we should also say the naacp itself has been relatively cautious about all this. yesterday they were sort of tamping down any speculation that it might have been of a political nature. they continue to do their work. jesse paul thank you very much. >> thank you. more on the latest developments in today's terror attack in paris, next. ht at the site of pain. wherever it is. advil stops pain right where it starts. relief doesn't get any better than this. advil. can't say thank you enough. you have made my life special by being apart of it. (everyone) cheers! glad you made it buddy. thanks for inviting me. thanks again my friends. for everything for all your help. through all life's milestones our trusted advisors are with you every step of the way. congratulations! thanks for helping me plan for my retirement.
i have a cold with terrible chest congestion. i better take something. theraflu severe cold doesn't treat chest congestion. really? new alka-seltzer plus day powder rushes relief to your worst cold symptoms plus chest congestion. [breath of relief] oh, what a relief it is. there are conflicting reports at this hour on whether french authorities currently have two of the suspects in today's attack in their custody. earlier in the hour pete williams told me he heard from some u.s. officials that one of the suspects had been killed the remaining two were taken into custody. while other u.s. officials are saying that's not what they've been told. french authorities won't say. there's reports that reporters on the ground all night said there were no shots fired, no
signs of a suspect killed or arrested in reims outside pairs. the afp, the french wire service reports that the youngest of the three suspects has in fact surrendered to police. all around the world tonight people have been taking to the streets to show solidarity. holding signs that read je suis charlie, i am charlie. in iron where journalists are holding a vigil. so charlie can live three major media companies offer equipment to the remaining staff so "charlie hebdo" can continue to function after eight journalists were gunned down this morning. cartoonists around the world have been responding to the deaths of some of their most prominent colleagues as only they can. there's this cartoon from david pope retweeted nearly 60,000 times and counting.
this one posted to unofficial facebook page of banksy. or this arms with a cartoonist's tools. they find themselves in the cross hairs of the institutions and the individuals they ridicule. perhaps most famously the controversy in 2005 and '06 over danish cartoonists depicting the prophet mohammed that set off death threats against the artists and others. even now cartoonists are coming under threat in places like turkey. they've been cracking down. pulitzer price car soonist and the president of the board of directors of the cartoonists rights network international joel pett. your reaction to today's massacre? >> hi, chris. well, any of us who have been fortunate enough to meet cartoonists from around the world, go to cartooning confabs as i have been in asia and
africa and even in soviet era russia have recognized that this is a tribe of really like-minded kindred spirits. and it transcends nationality and even political ideology. we just like each other. and, you know we share the same sort of soul searching laments about the human condition on good days and on days like this, it's just pretty tough to take. >> the phenomenon of cartoonists finding themselves as subject of threats is more widespread than i think you might -- or folks might imagine. the danish cartoon controversy was the most publicized but in your role the organization you serve on the board of, i mean this is something that happens across the world every day. >> yeah it certainly is. if you look at cartoonist rights network international's website, you'll see that we have clients
all over the world and this happens on a very small scale, of course, so it doesn't make headlines all the time. usually not from terrorists but at the hands of their own government, who, you know intimidate and otherwise try to control this kind of free speech that is uncontrollable. >> what is it about the medium that makes it so feared and powerful? i mean we're having -- you're seeing people -- we're having internal debates over whether we'll show some of the more offensive or provocative cartoons. nbc news has decided we should not as have other networks. it packs a punch that mere words or monologues don't seem to. >> you know that's true. i think part of it is that it's difficult to respond to ridicule and satire. i mean if somebody draws you like a turtle the way i do our senator mitch mcconnell you just can't write back and say,
i'm not a turtle. and it's hard to respond to humorous satire and ridicule and if you're smart you just go along with it and if you're not, you try to stop it by force, which unfortunately happens all too often. >> is there a sense tonight amok the tribe that -- among the tribe you talked about of collective grief, collective solidarity and what steps to take in defiance of this? >> well certainly there is. and as you said earlier, the only thing we know to do is draw more cartoons. but the pen may be mightier than the sword in the long run but there are certainly days when it sure doesn't feel like it for right now. i think everybody shares the same sort of feeling of helplessness. for me and i can't speak for the rest of the cartooning world on this it is things like this are a wake-up call to not waste the opportunity that we have any of us fortunate enough to
have a platform in this country or anywhere else to draw satire, need occasional reminders, not like this of course, but that -- i hate to call it a serious business because clearly it isn't, but there is some obligation to if you're going to be a provocateur, to provoke the right people and the right institutions for the right reasons. so you know little as that might be that's what i take away from it. >> athe idea that there's a kind of -- in this satirical enterprise a sort of solemnity to the actual weight that you bear in doing something that's as meaningful and powerful that it is that people kill over it. >> yeah it's hard to fathom that. you know for all of the international incidents that we have at cnri tried to mitigate there are very few of them in
this country. and i think it's a combination of the fact that well first of all, the corporations have done a pretty good job of silenceing the cartoonists simply by laying us off, so much more civilized, but secondly and more seriously, i think that we don't take the kinds of chances, publishers and editors, cartoonists will but publishers and editors in this country don't take the kinds of chances that some others do around the world. it's impossible really to imagine "the new york times" or "the wall street journal," neither of which even run political cartoons or "usa today" which, to their credit do, really taking on something that had a real cutting edge possibility of provoking, you know something big. >> yeah it's hard to imagine a large american publication that would be running precisely the cartoons that were being run in
this publication which we should note had a relatively small circulation. this was not le monde. >> yes this was a satire journal, not a large daily, but even le monde runs page one editorial cartoons by jean-claude plateau against the jihadists. it takes guts to do that. >> if today's attack on the offices of "charlie hebdo" were in retaliation for the publication's representation of the prophet mohammed what does that mean for the future of free speech? i'll be joined by a panel including someone whose father was threatened in his home home after speaking out against fundamental fundamentalism and terrorism.
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at the exception of some jihadi supporters on twitter, the muslim world's condemnation of today's attack in paris has been more or less unanimous. organizations alike denouncing the shooting. at this point the attack appears to are been retaliation for the satirical magazine's representation of the muslim mohammed. if that bears out, this is a stick of dynamite thrust into what is a deep and dangerous fault line running through france europe and the world. what constitutes legitimate debate in an era of global media, when something published one place is something published everywhere. at a time of heightened tensions of identity and security in europe, like the isis beheadings
they're crafted to play into the worst fears of the jihadist threat. every bit as barbaric as you have been led to believe and they'll come for you. when i first heard about the murders at the magazine's office, i remember the controversy over danish cartoons mocking the prophet mohammed. at the time i thought those cartoons were stupid offensive and many were racist. if i were running a magazine i wouldn't publish them nor offer praise to those who did. they seemed to be a pointless prank. but upon seeing today's murders, i admit to reconsidering. i can't help feeling that what happened today retroactively enabled the cartoons because the magazine hebdo and its staff were actually genuinely subject to violent reprisals, repriseals they stood up against courageously and at a tremendous cost a cost we're seeing today. standing up against intimidation, that is noble even if the cartoons themselves may
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well, a mortgage shouldn't be a problem your credit is in pretty good shape. >>pretty good? i know i have a 798 fico score thanks to the tools and help on experian.com. kaboom... well, i just have a few other questions. >>chuck, the only other question you need to ask is, "what else can you do for me?" i'll just take a water... get your credit swagger on. become a member of experian credit tracker and find out your fico score powered by experian. fico scores are used in 90% of credit decisions. we're back. joining me now michael moynihan of the daily beast, author of "your fat wa does not apply here." her father was the subject of death threats after he taught about darwin. and senior editor of the islamic
monthly. all right. let me start with you. what is your reaction to today? and does what happened today change your -- the prior believe beliefs you had yesterday about speech offensiveness, violence and intimidation? >> i'm completely horrified by what happened today. and like so many people of muslim heritage around the world, i do want to say, i am charlie, in arabic -- [ speaking foreign language ] and in french -- [ speaking foreign language ] this has confirmed my belief that muslim fundamentalist movements are one of the major human rights threats we face around the world and we have to defeat those move moonts. >> what does that mean, though? what does defeat mean? >> it means first going after and discrediting the ideology that motivates them. it means exposing their terrorist atrocities.
unfortunately, what happened today has been repeated across majority regions of the world. it reminds me of an attack in algiers in 1996. so it means exposing the way they've victimized so many civilians including people of muslim heritage themselves. it means, in the case of the armed wing of these movements we've seen operating today, it means dismantling and taking apart and taking away the funding from those movements. and i think part of what it means is ta people of muslim heritage around the world have a ponlt to speak out against these atrocities, against the movements that carry them out, against the apologists for them. we have a responsibility to be as courageous as the people on the frontlines. people today are speaking out in places like algeria, even somebody from sudan signed a petition in support of the journalists at "charlie hebdo." >> i want to show you an image that people have been talking about this magazine and i've heard the phrase equal opportunity offender.
here's one cartoon. at one point they sort of found themselves condemned by -- from rabbis catholic priests and islamic clerics. and there are going to be people today, tomorrow friday night on bill maher who basically say, well, look who -- they offended everyone, they went after jesus, they went after catholics, they went after jews and it's only the muslims who react violently. what are you going to say to the people who are going to and are saying that right now? >> chris, i think it's important to keep in mind that the acts of three murderers, gunmen in paris, france do not equate to the acts of 1.7 billion muslims on the face of the earth. it's important to keep in mind that the 2005 danish cartoon, the fire bombing at charlie hebdo headquarters in paris, we're in 2015 now, a lot of these cartoons are not even new.
it's important for free speech advocates and first amendment freaks around the world and in western and eastern societies to stand up in solidarity against any sort of violence perpetrated against people who are just trying to exercise free speech. we all know that free speech is not absolute. you know that there's no western liberal newspaper on the face of the earth that would publish anti-semitic cartoons and rightly so for understandable reasons. when it comes to islam and muslims, this sort of conflation in terms of the need for muslim public intellectuals and leaders to come out and condemn, obviously which we have today still remains large because we want the rest of western societies to know that we're part and parcel of our nations. one of the 12 people who were actually killed the 42-year-old policeman. >> that's right. >> who was gunned down on the sidewalk was actually a muslim.
>> right. >> so we're as much victims in this as anybody else. and you know we are horrified and saddened by the tragedy today. >> michael, i think of you as kind of a maximalist on this. i think you and i probably have very different views of the decision to publish the danish cartoons. you thought they were affirmatively -- >> i even published them too. on the website i ran in sweden after a website in sweden was shut down for publishing them. >> my feeling today is a very good post if it turns the out if a large enough group of people is willing to murder you for something, then saying that thing actually turns out to be something that needs to be said. but there is also the case of this question sort of offense for offense's sake. and i guess what is your thinking about this? >> i mean i can't question their motivations. i don't want to go around saying
that "charlie hebdo" and fleming rose in denmark didn't i know fleming rose but -- >> did you do it for the right reason. >> i hear this a lot today that charlie hebdo is a left wing it's a left wing i don't care if it's a right wing. nobody deserves to go to jail to be blown up to be shot for these things. i do make a few points fantastic intro to your first guest, it's right to say, as everyone does say ad nauseam but not all 1.7 billion muslims are terrorists. let's flip that here. not all 1.7 billion muslims are offended, by the way. many in the muslim world, many liberals in the world who are muslim are protesting against this and against censorship too. >> it does get inverted. the assumption of offense can be stereotyping as the assumption
of extremism. >> absolutely. and the research that i did on muslim opposition to fundamentalism, i interviewed a wonderful arts promoter in lahore pakistan and he said to me sitting in lahore this is somebody whose own festivals had been attacked he said if the prophet mohammed would have seen these cartoons they would have had a laugh. muslims can appreciate satire. and we have to defend the right to blaspheme, which is different than the right to discriminate, which i absolutely oppose. >> do you worry about what tomorrow and the next week and the next month looks like in france and around europe as the back dp backlash to this grows? >> in germany in the last few weeks there have been 17,000 people showing up at anti-muslim protests all around the country. this is only going to exacerbate that. there are reports that show the gunmen were screaming things like we are avenging the prophet and they've done nothing
but disgraced the prophet. the prophet was insulted many times in his life and never once did he kill anybody in retribution for that. this is completely devoid of religion. this is pure mass murder plain and simple. it doesn't matter the nationality or the religion of the perpetrators this is a crime against humanity. >> i would say this whether it's devoid of religion or not, we don't definitively know we have witness ngtaccounts they shouted about the prophet. it was meant to do something very specific which is create retribution and to intimidate people who are engaging in speech. that is what has so brought people out of the woodwork across the world, across a lot of faiths in opposition to it. >> i think that's the backbone of this is in very very radical reading of islam, but it is a political ideology. this doesn't surprise me that this happened unfortunately. i think the political fallout from this is very worrying because the