tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC January 8, 2015 1:00am-2:01am PST
apparently an 18-year-old has surrendered to police, but the search is still on for the two older suspects in this attack. french police tonight have put out this wanted poster with the names and images of those two suspects. wanted poster. with the names and images of those two suspects. they're calling the two arranged and dangerous -- armed and dangerous and asking for the public for any information about their whereabouts. solidarity vigils continue around the world tonight. francois hollande has called for a national day of mourning tomorrow for the 12 people killed in the attacks. we have some breaking news out of france right now. police confirm a new shooting this morning at 8:00 a.m. local time in montrouge, southwest of paris. two people were shot one is a local traffic officer. their conditions are unknown at this time. there's no indication if this has any connection to yesterday's mass shooting that
left 12 people dead. we'll continue to monitor this. stay right here to msnbc for the very latest. i'm francis rivera. >> lawrence a donnell? >> thank you. the news is continuing to break. thanks, we'll continue our live coverage of the manhunt in france. one suspect is in custody and two are still at large. >> three masked gunmen stormed into the paris headquarters of the weekly magazine "charlie hebdo." >> killing at least a dozen people in the newsroom. >> one of them stayed in the car. the other two entered the building and began firing. >> a series of gunshots were heard, at least 30 rounds by some estimates. >> killing editor stephane charbonnier, his bodyguard and eight others. >> "charlie hebdo" has been very, very satirical in their approach to religion. >> with a long history and a
controversial history. >> the offices had been firebombed several years ago because of satirical issues that featured the muslim prophet muhammad. >> francois hollande said this was a terror attack of exceptional bar barty. no one can believe they can act like this in france, against the very spirit of the republic and get away with it. >> je suis charlie. je suis charlie. >> it is 4:00 a.m. in france an intense manhunt is underway for the terrorists who killed 12 people and injured 11 at the paris headquarters of the french satire magazine, "charlie hebdo." or charlie weekly. the attackers headed east right after the attack and this is the latest video from the scene of a police operation underway in the
french city of rehm east of paris. heavily armed police entered an apartment that french media reports belongs to one of the suspects. just a short time ago, french police said the youngest suspect, 18-year-old hamyd mourad, has turned himself in. and they are still searching for two brothers. said kouachi and cherif kouachi, who are in their early 30s. the three attackers wore masks and carried assault rifles. the attack took less than ten minutes. people climbed on to the roof of buildings to make sure they were getting away from the shooting down below. [ gun fire ]
>> that completely blurred figure you saw on the screen was the police officer being shot. the people who decide what you are allowed to see on american television have decided you should not be able to see that police officer clearly. i don't know how those decisions are made. a witness who encountered the escaping gunman says they yelled you can tell the media that it's al qaeda in yemen. joining me now from paris is nbc news foreign correspondent bill neely. bill, what is the latest there? >> reporter: well, lawrence interesting you mentioned that policeman, the ironic thing is that the policeman who was shot at point blank range was a french muslim policeman. what is absolutely clear here tonight is that the french police know exactly who they're
looking for. they have released in the last couple of hours photographs of those two brothers the kouachi brothers, and they have said that these men are armed and extremely dangerous and they're asking the french public for their help. we know that one of the brothers was jailed for terrorist offenses ten years ago, jailed for 18 months. we think the other brother was in syria and returned in august of last year, having -- well, done something in syria. we don't know what, but from the look of those videos, these are two gunmen who are quite at ease with weapons the way they hold the weapons. if you saw one of the stills, there were 15 gunshots in very, very close proximity to one another as if the person doing the firing had been very steady. they do things very calmly and this is what eyewitnesses report, that these were two calm, almost trained professional, if you like,
gunmen. but of course to say professional of a horror like this is not quite right. and police have also issued now the names of all of the victims. you know, the people who were in that editorial meeting were of a certain age. one of the cartoonists was 80 years old. he's called woe whensky. i have one of my books on my bookshelves at home. he's a very well known cartoonist. another was 78 and he was given france's highest award, highest civilian honors. these were very well respected, very well known men and women who were killed in the most brutal fashion. but it does not seem that the french police know exactly who they're hunting. the manhunt very much on. >> bill what do they know about how long the suspects have lived in france? were they born in france? >> reporter: it appears they were. they seem to be of french
algerian extraction, but they were born in paris, at least that's what we hear from some anti-terrorism experts. so the french police have not given detailed biographies. also remember, reports that one of them have returned -- had returned last year from syria. french police estimate that around 300 french nationals are in either sirria or iraq -- syria or iraq at the moment fighting for isis so this is a big problem in france, in germany. and of course the suspects could be anywhere at the moment. they were heading north of here at speed along motorways. they could be in belgium by now. it's not just a french issue. this is a northern european manhunt. >> bill neely, thank you for staying late and joining us on this incredible day. thank you very much. joining me now from
washington is nbc news justice correspondent pete williams. pete, what are we learning in washington from the fbi and from the defense intelligence sources who would be looking at this? >> reporter: well, a couple of things. one, as soon as the french authorities got the names, the u.s. was going back and is looking to see if there was a possible connection between this attack and people in the u.s. and they say tonight they haven't found any. that they have been looking at their databases and don't see at this point any contact between the suspect in france and people in the u.s. that's thing one. thing two, whenever you have an event like this, the intelligence community takes the amount of material it's been collected, they sort of hit the pause button and look back before the event to see if they can find things that in retrospect would indicate some kind of warning for this attack. and they say they cannot. so it's an all hands on deck affair to try to help the french
and do what what they can and make sure there are no other attacks in the offing. couple other points here. there's been a decision not to raise the terror threat level in the u.s. you know, lawrence over the years that has sort of evolved. in the early days of the terror threat level, it was kind of raised based on sort of general jitters. now the policy is that the threat level isn't raised unless there's some specific intelligence indicating there's an attack planned on the u.s. and because there isn't they're not going to change the terror threat level. a couple -- >> go ahead, pete. >> reporter: a couple other points. as is typical with something like this when you have rapidly unfolding events you get a lot of contradictory information. it's still not entirely clear what the french authorities believe these three people did. it seems pretty clear from the videos that the two older ones were involved in the shootings. but what's the role of the third suspect? that's never been very clear,
and at one point today just to indicate the confusion here at one point, one french official had said there had been an arrest and that was retracted. earlier tonight, two senior u.s. counterterrorism officials told nbc news that one of the suspects had been killed and the two were in custody, but now they say the information that was the basis of that account couldn't be confirmed and that appears to have been wrong. so it's just been a day like that. >> pete williams, thank you very much. thank you, pete. >> you bet. tonight, france raised its terror alert to the highest level. that is called attack alert and bolstered security at media offices, places of worship, and public transportation hubs. joining me now is a senior terrorism analyst at flash point global partners and msnbc law enforcement analyst jim kavanagh. what's your reading of the evidence so far? >> well, there has been a number of confusing details emerging, whether from french authorities, from american counterterrorism
officials. they indicated that at some point one of the attackers was killed. at another point that he was arrested. and a third point that he hadn't himself in. so there's a lot of speculation, but we know that based on all of the details that have come out that the two individuals -- the two brothers remain at large. that one of them might have traveled to syria last year and that he might have returned up noticed. >> what do you make of the one thing they said to bystanders, tell them -- tell the press that it's al qaeda and yemen? >> reportedly because we cannot completely ascertain that's exactly what they said. but if it's based on that, let's retract back to march of 2013 when al qaeda in the arabian peninsula released inspire magazine number ten in which it had a hit list and one of the names on that hit list was mr. charb. >> we have that -- i think we have that hit list. there it is. there's the wanted list they put
othere -- out there. one of the names on there -- >> the editor of the paper. >> along with salman rushdie and people they have been after for years. >> and one of those was in inspire magazine's first issue that included names of other cartoonist danish cartoonists who featured prophet muhammad. >> what do you make of what you have seen on the video, of the way they handled the weapons, the weapons they were using, how would you obtain weapons like that in paris? >> right. i think it would be difficult to get them just normally in paris. looking at the kalashnikovs and, you know the tactical vests. the desert tan and ammo vests that one of the actors was wearing. i think the way they acted, lawrence, looked to me like one or both had been in a conflict area. you know, they carried these rifles comfortably. not highly trained military like of a western nation. they weren't that kind of
people. they didn't move like that. but they moved as people that had been in conflict before. they weren't scared away by police officers who came on bicycles or in vehicles. they knew they were going to win that fight with their rifles. but they're bumbling as well. they went to the wrong door. the one guy lost his shoe. you know highly trained military operatives would tie their shoes. they'd have the right door. you know -- >> jim, as you're saying that we showed the video of them having to stop and pick up that shoe as he was getting in the car. >> right. >> jim, we have a report tonight indicating in the black car that we were seeing in the video, one of them left an i.d. by mistake. that's part of out they got tracked down. >> right. exactly. you know, shades of the pakistani taliban terrorist in times square who --
even if there was some security out there, a couple of guards a policeman cannot prevent heavily armed gunmen -- >> the armed policeman guarding them was the first person killed. >> exactly. they had high powered rifles that could kill dozens of people within minutes. what does that tell us though about france's gun policy? i think that's -- that's another discussion for another time. but it's important to look at how they obtained their weapons. who provided them who helped them. you know going back in their communication trail, how were they able -- did they communicate with individuals outside the country? did they indeed travel did they communicate with commanders or fighters on the grounds somewhat in a jihadi spot.
>> the fact they got the location wrong indicates that someone else gave them the location information. it looks like maybe they had never been there before. >> that's a possibility. but also -- >> could be working off the address. >> working off that address and not knowing exactly -- >> thank you. coming up -- president obama's response to today's murders in paris. and one of the brave editors who has decided to actually publish the cartoons that provoked those murders in paris today.
that is why those people were executed. cartoons. cartoons that included depictions of the founder of islam. the killers said we have avenged the prophet. they said that. those were their words. the killers didn't want those cartoons to be seen by anyone and they are not the only ones. most major news organizations in america will not show those cartoons. some performed the self-censorship right before your eyes of showing a photo of the editor of that magazine holding the magazine but then cropping the photo so you can't see what all the fuss was about. you can't see why that man holding that magazine was murdered today. i will not be presumptuous enough to hold up a sign, a card saying je suis charlie. and i will not be able to show you the cartoons that got some very brave people killed today.
that's what they killed today. i just can't comprehend it. >> stephane charbonnier once said i would rather die standing than live on my knees. he died standing today for the principle of the freedom of expression. he was 47 years old, not married, he had no children which he cited as one of the reasons he felt free to risk his life making jokes about the founder of islam. two years ago, he told "the l.a. times" i'm more likely to get run over by a bicycle in paris than get assassinated. he also told "the times" if one person is injured or killed it doesn't mean that one people listen put on their knees. it is one person attacking another person. that's all. bernard maris an economist was visiting the magazine office today when he was killed. he was a frequent contributor to the magazine writing under the name uncle bernard.
he was 68 years old. tonight, french police released the name of the other victims who include jean cabut a cartoonist who the french newspaper lemond called a giant, and bernard verlhac said he was drawing cartoons since he was 13 years old. he said the best cartoons give rise to laughter and a certain kind of shame. he was 50 years old. georges wolinski was an 80-year-old cartoonist and he said my job is to look for ideas. i have spent all my life looking for ideas, like a pig looks for truffles. "the l.a. times" says wolinski's drawings encompassed a large range of subjects but he had a focus on women and current
affairs. when asked about death, he said i want to be cremated. i told my wife you will throw my ashes in the toilet. that way, i will see your ass every day. today his daughter posted this photo of his office. joining me now is the white house correspondent for the french network. laura, i want to mention some of the other names that have just been released by french police. michelle renault, he was a guest at the magazine. frank dee, it said he was a special protection service, that may have been the person that was guarding the office who was killed first. and ahmad maribet, a police officer, apparently himself muslim. laura, tell us about this magazine and its place in french media. >> this is a very special magazine for the french.
they wanted to do some serious journalism and they wanted to make people smile about real issues. france is completely traumatized by what happened. it's the journalists who have been killed team and the french people cannot understand why there's so much horror, terrorism against journalism. and people really wanted to change the world and who lived in freedom, freedom of the press, freedom of speech freedom to be about to do whatever you want and to say whatever you want. >> laura we see thousands of people in france today holding up the sign je suis charlie. was that the feeling? i suspect it wasn't the feeling about the magazine before today. >> it's the feeling that something has changed in france.
i know that in the united states, you see france is a beautiful country with a lot of woman, wipe french cocoa and today it's over and today it is more over than ever. france is facing a difficult crisis about its identity about terrorism, about very serious issues, about the far right which is rising about a muslim population which does not have a job, which doesn't know how to do. but young people who are going to iraq to syria and who are coming back to france to strike the french society in the united states. you have -- you have in france today a lot of people are saying that it was 9/11 for the press and against freedom and against democracy. >> laura, what is your guess about what will be happening in france over the next couple of weeks in terms of a political reaction and a societal reaction to this? >> i think we're going to see
for the moment a -- a lot of people united. again, this is a shock so you're going to see like tonight thousands of french people demonstrating. you know the french love to demonstrate. they're going to stand side by side, to show to the world that the french people do not want the terrorism in the streets. then you'll have a lot of political questions. also along the french president does not have good ratings at this moment. he's between 15 and 20%. and the far right is rising in the past month and people have anxiety about the muslim population, and how they'll be integrated and how they'll face terrorism. so there will be a moment of grief and also a moment of how are we are going to solve to resolve this crisis, what's going to happen next? and what are we going to do about terrorism and in the fight against terrorism. >> laura, i'm very sorry about
the attack that your country suffered today. thank you very much for joining us tonight. i really appreciate it. >> you're welcome. coming up -- how the american press has responded to these murders today. a former editor at the onion will join me and ezra klein is here to talk about what his website has dared to do today. ♪ when you don't get enough sleep... and your body aches... you're not yourself. tylenol ® pm relieves pain and helps you fall fast asleep and stay asleep. we give you a better night. you're a better you all day. tylenol®
we're closely following breaking news out of france right now. a heavy police presence on the streets after a new shooting in the police suburb of montrouge. at least one is a local police officer and their conditions are unknown. there's no indication yet if this has any connection to yesterday's mass shooting. two shooters involved in that are still on the loose. we'll continue to watch this. now back to "the last word." in november 2011 the "charlie hebdo" offices were firebombed the day after the offices released a cover with prophet muhammad. and stephane charbonnier stood in front of his blownup offices holding up the cartoon that provoked the bombing. most major news organizations in
this country including this network, the associated press and "the new york times" had decided not to show any of the cartoons that led to today's murders. the cartoons can be seen online at vox.com. the huffington post the daily beast, gawker buzz feed and bloomberg. fred hyatte from "the washington post" confirmed to "the last word" tonight that newspaper will publish a cartoon from "charlie hebdo" on tomorrow's editorial page. it will be the same cartoon that provoked the bombing in 2011. it depicts muhammad with a hundred lashes if you're not dying of laughter. joining me now is ezra klein and former editor of the onion. ezra you decided to republish all of these cartoons today. how did you decide to do that?
>> i'd like to tell you it was a big decision we had a big meeting and we thought through the changes and the risks and the questions, but it honestly i spoke to my editors, it never occurred to us not to publish them. our job is to explain new stories when you can't explain the news story without showing people what this magazine did, what it published, what it wrote about. so it was an -- it was such an obvious call to us i have to be honest, i didn't make a call i talked to the editors to make sure i wasn't missing a link in the chain. but i do want to make one point because it speaks to my mindset on this. i don't really agree that this was about the cartoons and the way people are saying it is. i don't think this is about the cartoons anymore than a rape is what the victim is wearing. many people see the cartoons, many people do not go on mass killing sprees. and this was about the lunacy of
the murderers who did it and if they hadn't gone to the offices of this magazine they might have blown up a bus. they might have gone on a different kind of killing spree. but i think that saying it's about the cartoon is within their frame. and these are people who wanted to kill. you saw when they went out and shot policemen point blank these were killers and i think there was an excuse here about cartoons but i don't believe that was at the root of it. >> you know in motive in crime investigations, the first place the police go is they ask the people who did it why they did it. they told us very clearly today why they did it. they said they were avenging the prophet. so i get your point, ezra. i don't see why my judgment should override what the killers actually told us, but joe rendazo, i'm going to read something you wrote today. 12 people were murdered at the
offices of "charlie hebdo," a french satirical newspaper today apparently for doing the very thing the onion does -- satire. joe, they did one thing that the onion hasn't done -- they actually included images of muhammad. >> yeah. well, as far as my recollection goes there hasn't been a time when the onion has run an image of muhammad especially not for any inflammatory reasons. so i do think there's -- that there is a kind of fine line that has to be walked which is a sensitivity to the cultural preferences of your readership or anybody in the world versus the freedom to publish anything you see fit in a free society. so while the onion has poked a lot of fun and called out radical islam, i don't remember a time when it has run an image of muhammad.
not for my particular reason beyond that i don't recall it having come up. >> ezra klein, did you have any -- i mean, the way you described running these cartoons seems very simple and clear and i get it. but i'm wondering if at vox you considered any sensitivity issues as joe just referenced about these cartoons. >> yeah i think that's a real issue. i think the thing about free speech and i think we should all be aggressive about publishing these in today of all days. but what makes it so great, you don't have to endorse all of it and in free speech there's an implicit endorsement often by the state and in free speech there isn't. to me, i think that these cartoons had a category change around today, right?
a week ago, a month ago, two months ago i might not have published them outside of a context of a news story. i think a lot of them arguably were in bad taste. but today they became a news story. and the point about publishing them was not to rile readers up. it was not to poke fun at a religion. it was not to make a political point. it was to try to explain what had happened in this incredibly horrible crime in paris. and once they made that transition from being what they were to being the -- part of the core of this incredible international terrible story, that made the decision a lot easier. because i don't think at that point the act of publishing them and the message of publishing them was about the message they carried. it was about doing the job we felt we needed to do to explain to readers what was going on. >> well, it's going to be fascinating, ezra and joe, to see what happens after you at vox have put these up. huffington post has put them up. "washington post" is going to have one in the print edition of
the newspaper tomorrow. that's going to be a big moment because every other time in the last several years that anyone has run any kind of image of this kind anywhere in the world, denmark, france, wherever you are, there has always been some kind of protest reaction. including some very very large protest reactions around the world at different times. and joe, you have to wonder what's coming next here. >> i don't know what's coming next. you know i think ezra put it really well. you know, flipping through as it were the images on vox today and it never occurred to me that vox would have been one of the sole publications to print them. i mean, the tragedy here is that they're images, they're cartoons, you know? i don't think they have to mean anything. and i think centering so much of our discussion on what is the
response going to be is this okay, is it not, given that there are very real safety concerns that were illustrated graphically and horribly and violently today, i think by centering our discussion solely on that gives them much more power than they need to have. and i think if we allow ourselves to kind of dwell on this -- in this fear, then the message that these three killers were trying to send, that i don't believe they sent on behalf of islam as a whole, is given much more strengthen that it deserves. >> well, ezra, to some extent there's a certain amount of the mission is accomplished when most news organizations in america absolutely refuse to show these cartoons in any way. that was the objective of the murderers today.
>> yeah. in so far as there is there's certainly a sense of intimidation. there's the fear of safety how do you balance what you think you need to do for your audience or what you think you need to do in your idealism as a member of the free press, and your fear of depriving the families of your employees of a father or a mother. but nevertheless, i think that more people have seen these images today than ever would have in the absence of this act. and i think that there's been an encouraging affirmation of a free press there and i hope internationally. >> ezra klein, i'm glad it wasn't a tough call for you at vox. and joe, thank you for joining us as well. coming up, president obama's reaction to the attack in paris. we will go back to france for another live report on the manhunt that's underway right now.
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the fact that this was an attack on journalists, an attack on our free press, also underscores the degree to which these terrorists fear freedom of speech and freedom of the press. but the one thing that i'm very confident about is that the values that we share with the french people a belief -- a universal belief of freedom of expression is something that can't be silenced because of the
senseless violence. >> joining me now is the washington editor-at-large from atlantic magazine and msnbc contributor. steve, the -- john kerry and the president gave these kind of pro forma statements it doesn't seem like there was much they could say today that would be particularly helpful in these circumstances. but what's really helpful to the french is what's going on backstage in washington, particularly now at the nsa. this is when the big silos of data -- communication data, including french data that snowden revealed they're collecting is valuable to the french. >> i think you nailed it. behind the scenes we are looking at every bit of associational intelligence that we can find on those that have been identified as the alleged killers in this. looking for every relationship
they have, every phone call they have made. what they have spent money on. where they have travelled to. putting a map together of the digital profile of these individuals. and i'm sure that we're working with them. i mentioned earlier today on tv a few months ago when the minister of defense of france was here, he met with a number of us and talked about france's concerns that they were seeing increased connections and efforts between different fragmented groups in africa and in europe, to try to connect with isis. so that was an example of at least the kind of sharing that was already going on government to government. but i'm sure that we're doing the kind of things that you nailed in your comment. >> steve, i suspect at the end of this story, whenever it is, we may never know just how much of a contribution is made by american intelligence information if any to solving this or bringing more details to how it all happened. >> well, i think, you know, the character of the u.s. intelligence establishment in most cases is to stay beneath
the surface, behind the scenes and not to disclose information publicly because it compromises perhaps means, methods and it signals to other parties what we can know. it was highly unusual for instance when we identified north korea as a culprit in the hacking of sony. that almost never happens. and so you're right, we may never see what we come out with because you don't want to disclose too easily to others out there. you want to have them continue to engage in the patterns of communication that they have got. >> steve clemens, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up next, live report from france on the search for the two suspects who are still at large. you wouldn't do half of your daily routine. so why treat your mouth any differently. brushing alone does less than half the job
it's about four minutes away from 5:00 a.m. in france. a judicial official has confirmed to the associated press that the two suspects are still at large in the deadly attack at the offices of the french weekly "charlie hebdo." french authorities released photos of the two brothers 32-year-old cherif kouachi and 34-year-old said kouachi. both born in paris who are considered armed and dangerous. a third suspect 18-year-old hamyd mourad surrendered to police earlier tonight. bill neely is live in paris. bill, what do we know about the suspect who surrendered to the police? do we know where he surrendered
and why he surrendered? was he basically cornered at that point? >> reporter: well we don't -- we haven't gotten official confirmation that he is even the suspect who was named initially by police. but we know the man who turned himself in to a police station is 18 years old. he turned himself in in the arden region up near the belgium border and suppose he turned himself in because he saw his name mentioned on social media and decided to go to the police station. but none of that has been confirmed by police. what police have confirmed and it's quite clear now they are looking for these two brothers. one of whom was convicted ten years ago of terrorist offenses of trying to encourage a group of men to go to iraq to fight u.s. troops and the other brother we believe who returned from syria in august of last
year. paris tonight is a city in shock at the worst terrorist attack in 54 years here. it's a city fearful because these two men, the two gunmen pictured in the videos are still on the loose. people fearful they might strike again. but it's also a city defiant, tens of thousands on the streets here showing solidarity with the journalists and with the magazine, "charlie hebdo." >> we are joined again by the white house correspondent. laura, what do you think the reaction will be in france to what we now know to be the fact that both of these people who are being searched trying to be caught now were born in paris? these are native born frenchmen? >> it's not going to be surprising for the french people because they know that it
happened before, it happened in tu loss with a young kid who went against a synagogue, who murdered kids. and people are expecting this kind of attack. in the past six months, people -- politics people, reporters, were describing how french people who are preparing an attack against journalists, against jews, against different symbol of democracy. so the french people are not surprised. the french people are shocked, the french people want to be now united and the french people are going to look very closely at what's going to happen in the next hours. how the people are going to be arrested, whether french police is -- what they're going to do. is there a battle between the french police and these two guys? are they going to surrender, are they going to fight against the cops? there are a lot of questions at this moment. french is resilient and french people at this moment just want to show to the world how they're
united in the fight against terrorism. >> bill neely in paris and laura thank you for joining me tonight. up next, first look. breaking news this morning on "first look." the french intelligence fears that the two could carry out another attack and across america today, dangerously low temperatures and bone-chilling winds blanket the nation. including fatal pileups on the roads and emergency warnings mounting. good morning, everybody. thanks for joining us today. we have some breaking news to tell you about. paris still on alert. the urgent hunt for two suspected terrorists on the loose. the fear they could strike again at any time. the two suspects, two brothers the kouachis, and an 18-year-old has al