tv The Rundown With Jose Diaz- Balart MSNBC January 9, 2015 6:00am-8:01am PST
reporting at least two people have been killed. massive police presence in the area of eastern paris. as this situation unfolds. the french media is identifying the gunman in this attack as the same man police are seeking in the shooting incident that left a policewoman dead on thursday. and when police released a wanted poster linked to that shooting, it also included a 26-year-old woman. well, all that has been going on. there's another hostage situation unfold sing outside paris. that's where cherif and said kouachi, two men previously identified in the shooting that killed 12 people at charlie hebdo offices, had apparently been cornered. initial reports they were holding one hostage but there may be as many as seven, possibly including the owners that run the business. the building is surrounded by hundreds of anti-terrorist police and s.w.a.t. teams. officials say they are in contact, full phone contact, with the gunmen.
according to a french lawmaker they told police they want to die as martyrs. one final point, the incident in which a policewoman was shot on thursday and the attack on charlie hebdo offices on wednesday have now been linked by the french prosecutor's office. that means both these standoffs as well as the people involved appear to be somehow connected. the question is how will it end. joining me now is nbc producer chapman bell who just arrived at the scene of this kosher grocery standoff. chapman, good morning, what can you tell us? >> good morning, jose. when i arrived, police shifts getting ready, putting on full riot gear helmets and as well as bulletproof vests, armed with rifles, as well as sidearms. they then loaded into vans and moved closer to the scene. they've cordoned off the area. in addition to the heavy police presence there are helicopters
as well earlier. there's also a heavy ambulance presence. there are several ambulances. they set up a medical tent as well as it looks like they're prepareing for whatever could happen any possibility, they're getting ready for. there are hundreds of police. and heavily armed. we have heard the negotiations are taking place. but it looks at this point they are ready for anything that could possibly happen from this. this situation, this standoff. >> take us as far as a time line is concerned. do we know when this hostage situation began? you say there are ambulances. but so far no one has come out of that supermarket. >> well it's unclear because of the cordon if anyone has left the supermarket. there were about 20 minutes ago two ambulances did leave the scene with their sirens driving at speed.
so there were reports that two people had been killed here. so perhaps it can be linked to that situation. but at this point, things are just unfolding. very fluid. the police have been arriving in huge numbers. it was about a couple of hours ago when we were in the area of paris where many vigils and support for charlie hebdo victims have been taking place. we saw many vehicles driving through. on my way here we were stopped by police who were gearing up who stopped our vehicle and wanted to make sure who we were make sure that -- prove we were press, as well as make sure we didn't have any other passengers in the car. so paris is very tense at the moment. really just trying to make sure there are no more incidents as they have going on right now. >> nbc's chapman bell thank you very much. we're going to go now to the other focus point right now in
this fight against terrorism. i want to bring in nbc's bill neely. on the scene of that other hostage standoff in danmartin en goele. tell us what's going on there. we see you. what's going on right now? >> well we have just the most extraordinary situation. i mean this is unprecedented. after the biggest massacre in france in 50 years, now we have two hostage situations with at least three gunman involved and police s.w.a.t. teams. here you can see, we're about 25 miles from paris, police all over this area. and not far from me in a family-run printing firm there are two gunman the kouachi brothers believed to be responsible for the charlie hebdo massacre. completely surrounded by
s.w.a.t. teams. there is a hostage negotiator. he has spoken to one or both of these brothers. a french lawmaker has told the media and told everyone that the brothers said they wanted to die as martyrs. we understand there is one hostage. we do not know whether that's a man or woman. there are reports maybe the hostage had been released. that is unconfirmed. a little confusion because there are two locations. the police have actually just put out a wanted notice in connection with the other siege. that involves a man and a woman who they are saying are armed and extremely dangerous. absolutely unprecedented situation here in and near paris. >> and, bill we understand that there may be some communications, some relationship between what's going on where you are and what's going on in the supermarket in eastern paris.
>> that's right, the police have not confirmed this but it is believed that the two kouachi brothers who are the people holed up in the factory near here are friend s withs with the man who is the armed man who is in the jewish supermarket on the edge of paris. let me take you right back to the massacre itself. you remember the videos we saw. we saw two gunman only. the police had always insisted there were three suspects. an 18-year-old was named on social media. he handed himself in to police and said i had nothing to do with this. the question that that raises is, is the man who was in the jewish supermarket this morning, in fact the third suspect in the charlie hebdo shooting. we don't know that. but there are certainly believed to be links between the two kouachi brothers and the man involved in the other siege at the jewish supermarket about 20 miles from here. remember, this was a day when that supermarket would have been
packed with shoppers. tomorrow is the jewish sabbath. they would have been filling up with goods today. it's a very well-known popular supermarket. we believe there are hostages in there. there are reports there's been a shooting there. here, no reports of shots yet, but this building is completely surrounded. here you get the sense that there is an end game. that these men are cornered. >> this is so intricate, bill what we're seeing. because in this wanted poster that you referred to and that showed the picture of amedy coulibaly and hayat boumeddirene is it says they're wanted in connection with the murdered female police officer. so now four tied to this incident. >> let's go back to the incident yesterday morning.
which is the one in a sense lost in all this. yesterday morning, a man -- was approached by a female police officer. he was apparently dressed in black combat gear and carrying a kalashnikov rifle just like the kouachi brothers in that video. he shot that policewoman dead. now, the wanted poster that's been released this morning is believed to be related to that shooting yesterday morning. it has the man in it. but the new element is there's a woman there as well. now, she is a woman who is believed to be a former companion of this guy. they live together in the paris suburbs some years ago or -- are then believed to have separated, so they are linked. the man in that poster is believed to be the man at the jewish supermarket. the whereabouts of the woman, we do not know where she is. so it could be that if even if they either kill or capture the kouachi brothers even if they kill or capture the man in the
jewish supermarket, the woman is a new element in all of this and she is not reported to be in any of these buildings. so immensely complicated situation. as you've said there are at least three separate incidents now. this is unprecedented. >> bill neely, thank you. i'm going to go back to the french capital. nbc's ron allen. with the very latest from there. near where the standoff is happening at that kosher grocery store. ron, good morning. >> good morning, jose. yes, we have been standing here about a couple miles from where that standoff is taking place. we've been hearing police cars go screaming by. perhaps as many as 15 in two separate swarms going down the streets. of course that catches everyone's attention here. this capital has been on edge. people are nervous and anxious. if there's anything to be seen that's positive about all this
it is that these incidents are being tied together. that these suspects have a relationship and that the attack yesterday, particular that took the life of a policewoman, was not a random act. that's been the concern of so many parisians. is what was happening and was it going to happen again and were there just random assaults going on around town. i think you can hear in the background another one of those wailing sirens that's been going off that's been happening pretty constantly. again, the scene of that standoff is over in that direction. they're all heading in that direction. although some are now coming back in this direction. it's been quite a morning. it's been a really intense morning here. we started off of course with a car jacking up in the north where that other standoff is going on. then there was a gunfight there. then a pursuit that led to the hostage situation involving the kouachi brothers.
now we're hearing about a second assault and hostage taking at this grocery store. the president of france has also spoken this morning to the community, trying to reassure people trying to say this is a time for unity. he revealed the government has been aware for some time and has thwarted a number of possible attacks. so this came as perhaps no surprise to the french authorities. we do know there's a big concern here about young men going back and forth from places like iraq and syria. sympathetic to the jihadi movements. we know the brothers involved in the attack on the magazine have ties that go back to -- as far as '05 to those organizations. so this is clearly a problem here. the fact that the suspect in the grocery store situation and the brothers are connected makes some continuity here and suggests that this is not random violence, that there is a pattern to this.
and that may, in fact help the authorities solve this problem, stop this problem. but, again, unclear how long all this is going to go on. the authorities have said their main concern of course is the safety of any hostages. we've been getting conflicting numbers about whether there are one or more hostages not only in the grocery store but northeast in that industrial park. just an incredible morning in paris. everyone just hoping that anyone who is in custody -- anyone who is a hostage is released safely and of course everyone wants this situation to be over and calmed down. >> ron allen in paris, thank you very much. we'll of course be staying very close to you as well as all our correspondents throughout france. to keep you updated on this still break situation. i want to bring in our guest, former white house middle east policy adviser. and michael kay. both thank you very much. when this broke on our air, we
were talking about how these two -- apparently these two brothers were acting in a very organized systemic cold-blooded way. and now we're seeing that it wasn't just a random attack that there are some planning and there are more than just two people involved. >> we could be seeing a number of different things here. not only the paramount safety of the hostages and civilians around these locations. but also the contagion effect. that's a short-term contagion effect. with people who are disenfranchised. maybe getting an idea to go out and do something in the next hour the next day. also the strategic contagion effect of fuelling this ideology in terms of people getting away with this. what's really interesting jose about this is they're two different locations. the first location is danmartin en goele, a very rural area
where the kouachi brothers are holed up. the second location is right in the center of paris. both of them causing maximum disruption. danmartin-en-goele is about five miles away from charles de gaulle. charles de gaulle had to shut down one of its runways. the authorities have to set up restricted operating zones. that will have not just a diameter on the ground but it will have a level of airplane space up to 20,000 feet where helicopters try and put imagery on to the target will have to operate operate. that's going on downtown paris right in the center. so there's maximum disruption going on here. >> it's easy to close the schools and surround the area. than it is to deal with a capital of a country that is very packed and is seeing something break out in the middle of it. >> you're absolutely right. the authorities will be using what we term as the four cs.
confirm, clear, cordon and control. and then the fifth "c" is containment. that's what they'll have to do in both locations. as you pointed out, we saw ron reporting from paris city center. you just have to look behind him to see how busy it is with traffic and with people. going out to the northeast about 30 miles, you're absolutely right, it is quieter, and it should be technically easier to contain, but that doesn't necessarily mean the disruption is any less. because obviously charles de gaulle has been affected quite dramatically and there will be aircraft stacking up and waiting to get in there so there's a lot of disruption going on but at very different levels. >> ambassador ginsburg let's talk big picture for a moment. we're talking about something that is happening in the french capital. this is going on now for more than 48 hours. it is extending beyond the parameters of the capital. but it also has implications throughout the world. the fact is ambassador you, for example who lived in morocco and see how that country has dealt with its own internal processes and how they've dealt with terrorist organizations,
but it seems as though in this case there is a very strong link between these -- at least these two brothers and terrorist organizations. >> well, indeed jose. and help just put this into even broader context. the hostage takeover at the kosher supermarket. where i was at this past summer. the ties between the jewish community and north africa are significant. particularly in morocco. and indeed one of the great concerns here has always been the moroccan jewish community which is a jewish community in paris, has long extensive ties in north africa and back into paris. it's interesting these two brothers and most likely the woman whose name is very much sounding like an algerian name boumeddiene, may be part of this al qaeda cell which had ties originally in yemen. it was clear in 2011 one of the brothers, said may have
traveled and been part of the broader al qaeda cell tied to amman anwar al awlaki. there have been threats since the escalation of tensions between palestinians and israelis. i visited the business areas that had been firebombed by muslim extremeists this past summer. and the jewish community was already on edge because of threats against it. it's something that's been going on for a considerable time. one of the most important things for us to put into perspective is the interesting potential link here between this attack on the jewish supermarket and, in fact expanding the broader extremist muslim narrative to include this palestinian/israeli narrative. i'm merely speculating, but that was the fomenting reason why there had been these attacks against the jewish community in paris this past summer. >> ambassador as you correctly point it's among those attacks
was firebombing of jewish supermarkets. just thinking, as you were saying this, an ambassador it may be no coincidence. the fact is these two brothers stormed into the magazine when they apparently knew that they were all going to be there. and now you have this situation going on in this supermarket when they probably knew it would be the becausest day of the week. >> absolutely the friday before the jewish sabbath. as your own reporters have pointed out. this would be the day the jewish community would be preparing for the sabbath dinner on friday evening. and that supermarket most likely would have shut down probably in the early afternoon. so it's interesting to see the fact that they timed this attack to coincide probably with the maximum number of people who would be in the market just before it closed jose. >> correct. and the sabbath starts tonight, in about two hours in france.
so they would have known that this was a very popular time for people to be in this market. gentleman, stay with me throughout the remainder of this program. your expertise is invaluable. i want to go now to nbc contributor for the fbi, clint van zandt. good morning. you mentioned one of the challenges for negotiators is the suspects might be talking to each other. >> over my years as an fbi agent, i've had doubles before two different prison riots in two different locations. and the challenge is many times they're trying to see what's going on at the other location. and they may try to build whatever negotiations they're doing not just for that sole location but for both location. so you contain, isolate, negotiate negotiate. you isolate them from any
contact with the outside world. that means shutting down televisions, shutting down cell phones shutting down any means of communication, except a single line with that hostage negotiator. and then you do that last item. you negotiate. again, thebs guys have indicated they want to martyr themselves. they've had 2 1/2 days to do that. but it's like -- this is like a bad novel and they're writing it, they're making it up as they go along. they knew what they wanted to do initially, but this has kind of been a pickup game. they're just kind of filling in the pages as they go. now we have these two situations. as my friend has pointed out to you, this may have been a coordinated act to hit this market at this time. now both locations likely know what their comb padries, comb padres are doing. >> it may be somewhat easy to do
that in dan martin-en-goele, which is close to charles de gaulle airport. it's kind of isolated. when you're talking about downtown paris and, you know, take me and our viewers into this, because while you're in a supermarket, you have your smart phone and then the amount of people that are in there, the customers, the people that are working there, also have smart phones. and so how do you contain and isolate something like that with so many devices that can communicate to the outside world? >> well technically, many governments, and i'm sure the french do have the ability to come in and really shut down cell phone communication. shut down internet communications, in a given area. if they're able to do that and close that off, so much better for them. in the meantime realize, jose there's two entirely different and yet totally related situations going on at each location. the tactical teams in this case
french gign, realize this is the equivalent of u.s. army delta. gign has about 400 operators. so they're fully capable of dealing with two different situations. they'll have an inner perimeter. which is the assaulters. these will be the men ready to go in and deal with the shooting situation. and then they'll have an outer perimeter to keep everybody else back. and of course they'll have that second plan a deliberate assault plan that if it's in their timing when they'd like to go in if they had to and resolve the situation. the negotiators are talking, trying to reach a peaceful resolution. at the same time trying to gather intelligence and pass that on. it's a very well coordinated activity and it has to be between the tactical forces the police in the surrounding area
and the negotiators who are really right on the tip of the spear right now, talking calmly trying to bring the stress and anxiety let mel down of these guys. realize, at least in the case of the two brothers they've been up 2 1/2 days. they're tired. they're hungry. they're exhausted. they could make mistakes mentally as well as physically. the negotiators are going to try to help calm them down. the best case one will be sleeping. one will be awake. if we have to go in that might be the time we would choose to go in in a situation like this. but everything is working toward a peaceful resolution. if i was a negotiator, my message to the hostage takers if you want to get your word out, you come out with me. i garnty you and i will sit down with a camera. you can deliver whatever message you want to. if you hurt anybody inside you lose your message. what's your choice. >> and clint, just from your
expertise perspective, we've been seeing this for 48 hours. yesterday, we reported as many as 80,000 people were involved in the hunt for these two brothers. it's been focused mostly north of the capital. now, when this thing breaks out in paris, in the eastern part of paris, as we approach 3:24 in the afternoon france time does it take authorities a bit to kind of reorganization refocus and go into this new area? as we see the map there? does that buy time for these people to organize differently or maybe have some type in place? >> well we know time usually decreased stress and anxiety in a hostage situation. that's what authorities would like to do. gign is fully capable of managing two hostage situations. but let's look at the next factor that's coming in. it's in the afternoon. it's going into evening. it's going to start getting dark
soon. we're going to need artificial light to light up the area. does that play into the hands of the hostage taker? does it play into the hands of the government because they have a night vision capability? all these decisions are going to be looked at as minute by minute, hour by hour. the government is trying to decide how they can resolve it. but realize it's also in the hands of the hostage takers. if they start shooting right now when there's no reason there's no reason to shoot, the authorities may well have to go in to try to save lives. and that can change things dramatically. just like we saw take place in australia a few months ago. >> absolutely. clint van zandt, thank you very much. as we continue to monitor two hostage situations. there you see it on the left part of your screen paris. you see officials surrounding this area. on the right of your screen in danmartin-en-goele, you see military helicopters.
clearly, there is a lot of movement. this is just a couple miles from charles de gaulle international airport. you see the amount of hardware and amount of people officials have displayed in this small town. as they're also dealing with the very dangerous situation in the french capital. let me bring in the moderator of "meet the press," chuck todd. chuck, good morning to you. >> good morning, sir. >> how does this affect us in the united states? >> in talking with security officials in the administration this is the nightmare scenario what's going on in france. the combination of a soft target and a small conspiracy or lone wolf-style conspiracy. i mean look at the flashbacks that i know i'm having having to do with two brothers holed up as they're running, wanting to be martyrs. it feels like boston all over again.
in some ways what paris is going through. i was talking to one security official who said they would love to publicly be able to say this could happen at any time in the united states. but they don't want to panic the country. but at the same time these are the most -- these are the hardest type of terrorist attacks to stop. the soft targets combined with these small either lone wolves or small packs and small conspiracies. especially the broader the conspiracy, the easier it is to stop these attacks. but the smaller the conspiracy the harder it is. we've got the other issue, jose which is the line between security and privacy and security and freedom. in a free society, you're going to have soft targets. that's just a fact of life. >> yes, chuck, i was just thinking of so many of the points you bring up. one of those points is do officials, you know, have they got any chatter about any
copycats even that would affect americans? >> this is how this conversation started, with these officials i talked to. the answer is no but at the same time these officials are worried about going public and saying, well look there's nothing imminent here in the united states. this isn't a broader conspiracy. it could happen tomorrow. that's their point. this is the new style of terrorist threat that has to be dealt with. now, that said, in talking to domestic officials, they say europe has a different problem than the united states when it comes to radicalized islamic citizens essentially, right, these are brothers that have french passports, french citizens. >> born in france. >> that's right. so this is -- they have a -- the muslim community in europe much more isolated for instance than it is even here in the united states. when you think about the largest enclave in the united states
population dearborn michigan arab community there. it's a much more intergrated community. in the united states, for instance than what you see in europe. then again, it's also a smaller population of the united states here in the united states than it is in europe. so i think there's part of the -- what american officials were telling me like hey, europe has a different problem than the united states does. it's not to say there aren't the concern of radicalized islamic fundamentalists causing problems here. obviously, it happened in boston. it's not like it hasn't happened in this country. but they believe the threat is much lower here in the united states because of the muslim populations in this country are not as radicalized in general. >> such a fine line for american officials. and, chuck, you expect the president to come out and, i don't know, have comments on this more than he's done so far? >> you know jose no. i don't.
other than probably after the standoff is through. because, again, in talking with officials here, there has been this line of not wanting to on one hand reassure americans that the security apparatuses are doing everything they can here to prevent anything similar happening here. at the same time not wanting to raise concern. not wanting to overhype things. so that's the line they're walking. when you put the president out, those are the things that go through the decision process about whether to put him out and when to put him out on something like this. what to -- you know, not just what to say, but when to say it. >> chuck todd thank you. you'll have more coming up on "meet the press" on sunday. i want to bring in nbc's richard engel in danmartin-en-goele. reporting that the hostage taker in the grocery store is demanding the kouachi brothers
be released? >> it's increasingly clear that these two hostage takings are related. and french authorities believe that perhaps it was even one cell. they also believe that these may have some links to al qaeda. what this -- what unfold the in the last five or six hours is that first, this morning, five or six hours ago here in this small village where i am now, which is quite close to the charles de gaulle international airport. the two brothers the kouachi brothers, who have been fugitives, wanted all across france, were driving. they were spotted in a parking lot in an industrial area which is about a mile from where i am. they were spotted by local authorities who had been -- had a dragnet set up. a gunfight ensued. during the gunfight the brothers took shelter,
barricading themselves inside a printing press a privately owned business in the industrial area taking at least one hostage. apparently the owner of that printing press there may be other hostages involved. as the security cordon was put in place here and you can see some of that security cordon behind me that's when we heard word of the other hostage taking. at the kosher grocery store in the center of paris. this suspect holding hostages at the grocery store apparently also shot a policewoman yesterday in paris. has also been on the loose for the last 24 hours or so. so it seems these two incidents are related. french officials say all three of these militants were previously known to french intelligence as islamic radicals. >> richard fascinating, the time line that you're painting
for us. because the fact that when these two brothers found themselves essentially up against the wall that's when this other situation broke out. then we have to add, richard, in this poster the french police have released especially -- bolo, it's two people, it's amedy coulibaly, believed to have shot the woman police officer, bleempled be in in the kosher supershth ma but there's hayat, believed to be in this interaccurate web. >> those are the two prime suspects in addition to those they're searching for now. french office military units have been searching across country to try to eliminate this web of home grown militants,
this terror network that is carrying out attacks in france right now. what we don't know are quite a few of the dots. so two days ago, the two brothers attacked the new charlie hebdo and killed the two people inside and on the street in front. then they went on the run. yesterday as the manhunt was taking place, the suspect now in the grocery store went and shot the police officer. what we don't know is was this all previously planned. did the suspect now in the grocery store decide to act on his own out of solidarity with his friends? was it a copycat operation and then he continued his rampage in the grocery store today? so there are still several pieces that are missing. but as you reported earlier, if in fact that hostage taker is demanding the release from here from the security cordon of the brothers, then it would imply their relationship is personal
or at least ideologically quite similar. >> richard, thank you very much. we will be continuing to chat with you throughout the remainder of this program. i just find it noncoincidental that this supermarket standoff would begin pretty much the same moment that these two brothers feel that they are corralled. just northeast of paris. i want to bring in contributor and counterterrorism analyst michael shield. good morning. what do you see when you see all these things breaking out? richard engel is saying one thing happened apparently right after the other. the police have brought out this bolo poster which includes two people and there seems to be right now a very dangerous, possibly deadly standoff in two places. >> that's right, jose. there's information now that do link these two situations. the individual at the grocery store does have connections with the two brothers held up near the airport. so there is some linkage.
when they planned this or whether he just reacted is unclear. but clearly they knew each other and had connections both personal and ideological. which makes this cell more broad and more dangerouses. perhaps there are more others waiting to also perhaps join in this assault. >> michael, i want to get your expertise. i'm just thinking out loud here. as we cover this breaking story. we want to make sure all angles are covered. and we don't give opinions that aren't based on fact. the fact is we know these two brothers were systemic in how they attacked this magazine. they were looking for specific targets. they were able to find every single person they wanted to kill and did so. then they went and hid. the police were not able to get them immediately the first 12 and 24 hours. which is key time right?
so do you sense that all of this is happening without coordination or does it seem to you there may be some previous thought-out things of what to do if this happens,s when there's an action, there's a reaction? >> i'm not sure about that. i think they're still winging it. one thing is clear. these people had connections with the al qaeda organization in yemen, aqap which is the operational arm of the al qaeda organization dating back that bin laden's central organization. that organization also specifically targeted charlie and specifically targeted the editor. so this is a planned attack. they knew where to go. they knew who they were after. the editor plus the cartoonist. they were not suicide people. they wanted to escape. the other guy at the grocery store has clear links to the two brothers. this is a broader conspiracy here. the degree of preplanning is not clear in my mind for the second
assault. that might have been something that he did to try to get those two released. not clear. but the initial attack well planned, well thought out. probably coordinated with the yemeni leadership of al qaeda. this is a very dangerous precedent. if more of those types of people are in france or in the united states for that matter. >> michael sheehan, thank you. i'll be going back to you throughout the remainder of this program. msnbc law enforcement analyst and former hostage negotiator for the bureau of alcohol firearms and explosives. we were talking about the fact these two brothers when they went into the french magazine in paris, were not sporting explosive vests. they were -- they had vests filled with magazine clips for the ak-47s that they handled so expertly. now we're seeing other things break out in paris. when you see this jim, and
you're seeing now, two different locations that are dealing with hostages and hostage negotiators, do you see a link? how would you handle this? >> great question. i do see a link. because first witnesses talked about three actors at the charlie hebdo scene. the 18-year-old that was reported to be involved. his classmates say he wasn't involved. there may be a real alibi there. he may not have been. the third actor who shows up pretty rapidly, killing the policewoman in the south of is france dressed in black, bulletproof vest guns down a policewoman for no apparent reason. he could have been the third actor. it's very different the way these targets were picked. by the two brothers. they pick a target where they are now barricaded with hostages. because the police are on their heels. the police are on their heels. they grab some people. they barricade in a building. the people they are currently holding were not targeting by
them. they targeted charlie hebdo. the guy now in the jewish grocery, this is a different dynamic. he has picked this jewish grocery store as the police of target. so he wants to go there. these are people he hates. he hates the jewish people. he wants to leverage this to get his friends released. >> he knows that supermarket is packed, jim. >> exactly, jose. the other part is important. this demand arises quickly. i would say it's likely that he could have been the third actor at charlie hebdo. he killed the policewoman. and he might have -- going to be laying low to see if his friends got apprehended by the police and then he would go somewhere, maybe scope out the grocery store, would take the hostages demand the police release his confederates. but they take hostages and barricade. he says, i'll do the same i'll get them released. so his plan is being winged as
well. he's developing it as he goes. he has some thought to it. certainly the targeting. the people are in great danger there in the grocery store, because he probably wants to be a martyr as well. they got to be isolated. communication has to be isolated. electronically. physically. the-on scene commander has to read the dynamics. we always try to read is it escalating, is it deescalating, and move our assets accordingly. talk is good. so if we hear them negotiating, it's very positive. >> jim, as you say all of this information, i kept thinking on the video. i haven't even talked to my producer about this i don't know if we have the video we can show of the aftermath of the attack on the magazine. if we can, find that. there's something that struck me back then that i've been thinking about. when you see them getting into their car, both the doors are
open. the person who ends up on the driver's side of the car, as they're entering as they're getting about five or six yards from that automobile makes a hand signal. i kept thinking who is that hand signal for. if there are two people in that that gets out of charlie hebdo massacre. watch the first. right there. you see that? there's a hand signal. he gets into the car. the other guy, as he sees the fallen shoe gets in and they go. if there are only two people in that car. >> who's he waving at? >> it's a good point. it's a great point. you've been following crime too long. it is behavior that could indicate he's signaling to -- >> right there. >> remember, there's witnesses that say there was a third man. whether that holds or not. but there's witnesses that say that. it's certainly within the realm of reason he could have done that. it could have been the third
man. he could have been waving to citizens on the street. it's very subtle. >> sorry to interrupt you. i'm just looking at this video again. the door has a rearview mirror. that's a front door. that's a driver door. you see. he's getting into it. the rearview mirror closes. that is the driver. if he's signaling someone, it's someone who had something to do with being there and that is probably not in the back seat right? >> exactly. if there's three actors. the hand signal you describe. the driver. they drive on the left side of the car in france. on the right side of the road. i agree with that. i think there's no one else in the vehicle. if he was signaling, it would have been to someone down the street which could have been the third actor.
i agree. i think that could very well be. the way it played out now, we have this second hostage scene. this is a terror cell not any lone wolf actor. you have to isolate them. and then you've got to work them each separately for their demands and for -- to save the hostages. >> it's also, again, i think that no coincidence that when the world was looking for these two gunmen and they were looking actually after 24 hours going north because of the reports they had been spotted heading north that a policewoman gets shot in central paris. very intricate, this web. i want to bring in steve
clemens, washington editor at large for "the atlantic." we were together when this news first broke. we just learned police ordered all shops closed in a jewish neighborhood in central paris. a neighborhood a good ways away from the attacks. what does it tell you? >> tells me right now they don't know, they don't have a full-scaling of this going on. i think everything we're seeing happening in eastern paris was a huge surprise. a two-front conflict. now linking potentially the killing of the policewoman yesterday. they just don't know. and so i think they're being judicious and they're saying that this is a tense moment. we haven't talked about, you know, the political dimensions of this the -- i've been on the phone this morning with people in paris. everyone is watching. people are furious and angry. so it's raising tensions that have been boiling inside parisian society for some time.
and i think right now the police are appropriately worried about other things happening to make this even more complex. >> steve, you talk about the political repercussionings. we're hearing about the possibility of all the political parties have gotten together to have a joint either meeting or session or conference and yet they're not inviting le pen, who is probably going to be the group and the person that most benefits in a horrible way, from this frustration and anger that you're talking about. >> if there were an election today or tomorrow marine le pen would beat francois hollande. she's about twice as popular in the last popularity polls taken before this happened. she said in a statement, time's up for denial and hypocrisy. the absolute rejection of islamic fundamentalism must be clear. she's calling for a death penalty and suspension of the agreement which allows the
travel between various european countries to be unhindered. and wants french border control. >> just to give political context. it's easy to talk about these things -- we have to kind of put a context on it because the current president is from the socialist party. then you have the right wing party. that is now trying to kind of regroup after being defeated by hollande. then you have the extreme right, which is led by le pen. >> that's right, and nicholas sarkozy of course the former president has met with and is part of this effort to create a national unity with hollande in this time of tragedy. le pen was invited to meet with hollande at the elaze and she refused. >> there we see the president, hollande. let's talk about the broader repercussionings. it's clearer, i think, this just
didn't happen out of homegrown terrorism. there's a link to yemen and possibly al qaeda. >> i think this is something that many terrorism experts have been worried about for a long time. both within places like the united states, canada in london, in england. more complex cells of coordinated action of people that had fought in the iraq war or had trained with al qaeda camps or had gone into pakistan and the khyber region and had come out and re-entered these societies. what we've seen is occasional lone wolfs who may have done that before. there's monitoring going on. but this is truly a substantial a complex -- an al qaeda-like complexity. remember, al qaeda's markers are high-profile targets and multiple hits at the same time. and so there is that imprint in this, that sort of dna of complexity of an al qaeda hit. which seems to fit thus far. whether they've stumbled into it
by coincidence or whether or not the various players, in fact as richard engel was saying coordinated all of this in a complex design before the hit on charlie hebdo, we don't know the answer to that. but it certainly felt like and looked like something that was consistent with what al qaeda groups had been trained to do previously. >> steve clemens, thank you very much. i want to bring back ambassador mark ginsburg former white house middle east policy adviser, and michael kay, now an international affairs correspondent. ambassador, i'm thinking about what steve was talking about. about how the influence of yemen and al qaeda. and, you know, after last year when we when we found out about the strength of isis ambassador, a lot of the feeling was, well isis is the new al qaeda, that they took the mantle from al qaeda, isis is even more extreme than al qaeda. so almost diminishing al qaeda's importance and impact. and yet we see that it's not the case. >> indeed, jose the united
states' assassinated amman al awlaki who, as you'll recall was a u.s. citizen, from new mexico the and began mearabian peninsula. he recruited a number of persons from europe, apparently one of the brothers. and whether he was assassinated before or after he returned to france remains to be seen. that's conjecture. it's important to take into account that secretly and quietly and probably too much outside the per view of the media there has been an ongoing series of attacks by the united states drone strikes and special forces attacks during the last few months in yemen against al qaeda targets along with yem any forces. that has been going on virtually every day. just a few weeks ago, there was a major combined counter offensive by american and yemen
special forces against al qaeda strongholds in yemen. this is continued. and there are reports, jose that one of the brothers had been instructed to attack cartoonists in europe particular particularly charlie hebdo because ayman had attacked anyone and anything and called on his followers to take out anyone who had, indeed, engaged in caricatures of the prophet mohamed. let me add one other point. i have spoke ton the leader of the jewish community of paris. the name of the supermarket under attack is called the hyper kosher marketer which is a well known jewish area and the person who was one of the leaders of the community indicated to me that the hostage ordeal is continuing and the french police
are now aware of the number of hostages that are being held. >> and, ambassador that leads me to the image we're seeing live now on our television screens. let's go back up to the paris shot entirely. if we could for a second. right there in the middle of your screen there is that dark gray building the bottom of which is dark gray. it seems there it says hyper kosher. that is the area that the world and certainly french authorities are focussing on. and i want to bring back your expertise on something. we have been putting other parts of paris, the jewish community has been closed the markets, et. cetera. not even in the area where this is going on. talk to me about what officials are doing and what they need to do right now when there is so many questions yet to be answered. >> yeah. the first thing, jose the guys will be doing is looking to as i said confirm what is going on
clear the area coordinate and contain it. and in doing that they'll have to set up restricted operating zones which will be an area on the ground, for example, from where the location is with the radius of about a half mile. draw a circle around it and a level of air space up to 20,000 feet. that will allow security forces to act with complete impunity whether it be from the air looking using helicopters, looking at image intelligence and listening as well. there's been a lot of talk about shutting down communications. that, indeed is one option available to the security forces. and you do that through cell towers. or electric counter measures. you can shut them down or choose to listen. if they were trained in any form of communications specialty, they might not be using mobile phones and using walky talkies. but it might be an option for the security forces tochatter.
they have the restricted operated zones. then the guys what we used to call when we were doing sf operations in baghdad grid reference graphics. that will be a 50,000 scale ordinance survey map. a detailed map of the area. then they'll go after it with a fine tooth comb. they'll look at the exit roots, s-- routes. that will be part of the containment tactical plan. they'll put check points on roads. they'll be numbered a, b, c, d, f. all security forces will get a copy of the map. so that gives you a feel of how the tactical plan will be evolve evolving. >> i want to take you now to the border of belgium. it's far away from a major metropolitan area. i'm thinking and i want your thoughts on this mikey, that
maybe the relevant news is not that it's close to the airport but it's isolated and not on the major thorough fares. as we know when you go on any of the highways in france and throughout much of europe they're controlled. there are cameras, there are electronic devices. maybe the two brothers were avoiding the major thorough ways and going through the small back ward roads of france trying to get out of france. >> yeah jose. that is one option. there are two real key talents to what we in the military used to call e casescape and evasion. what it means is i've been basically when you get comprised in the military and you are comprised by the enemy, there are two things you need to do. you need to put as much distance between where you've been comprised and the enemy as quickly as possible.
you move by night and hunker down by day. i would caution we're talking about the capability of this team. it does seem on the one hand they were calm methodical calculated. we know about their history. we know they have training experience. some have been to iraq and syria. on the other hand we also know that two men held up a gas station in broad daylight. if they were wanting to evade authorities and be covert that's the last thing you want to do. it's a bit of a double edged sword going on at the moment. we should be cautious in giving them too much kudos when it comes to the operational capability and certainly it's going to be in where near what the security forces, the swat teams, and the special forces that are engaged on the assignment can do. >> there's a difference between being a thug and learning how to kill in a cold fashion and being, you know, james bond. they're two totally different things. >> absolutely.
>> thank you very much. ambassador mark thank you very much. kristen welker good morning. >> good morning. the daily briefing getting underway at the white house. moments ago a white house official telling me president obama has been briefed on the ongoing situation in france. he's, of course, been on the road for the past two days rolling out policies he's going to announce in his state of the union address but he's monitoring the situation in france quite closely. in fact last night he convened a call from air force one with his national security team. not only to get an update on france but also to get an update on the ongoing security posture here in the united states. i can tell you that federal officials told local authorities across the country to be on heightened alert. we know there is extra security around french embassies in major cities including new york
chicago, d.c., boston, atlanta. secret service stepped up its patrol. this is something federal authorities are taking seriously in this country as well. they also stress there is no known threat here within the united states. now president obama is set to leave from the white house in less than an hour. he's going to tennessee. he's talking about college affordable. another stop on the prestate of the union tour. it is a key focus here behind the scenes. >> kristen welker at the white house. thank you very much. i want to show you the picture we're getting in of the president of france francois hollande is meeting with his national security team and we're just getting some pictures of that. which i'll show you in just a moment. there you see it. this is happening right now. he's meeting with his national security team.
going over exactly what is going on. let me tell you, at this level of danger of death, of bloodsheding, there is no doubt that any and all decisions major decisions that are going to be taken on what to do and how to handle this must come through the presidency of france. jim kavanaugh is still with me. as we go here we see right now our cameras are not capturing the intensity of what must be going on but the fact that in the two brothers that are corralled in the kosher supermarket in downtown for aparis, the condition to stop the violence from continuing is the release of these two brothers showed that negotiators have a very difficult road of hope >>well, they do. on the one hand, jose, but they also have something to talk about. and, you know, when you start in a situation like this for a
negotiator, for the chief negotiator who is leading a team of negotiators the way it works, and the onscene commander, something to talk about that's a good thing. so let's talk. let's talk about releasing your friends. you know, why do you want to get them released and who are you and who is there with you? is the girl with you? how many people are there. this dialogue goes on and you want to have it go on and let the emotion drop and let the tactical operators get in their positions and see if you can drop this thing down and get somewhere. i read that as a positive sign that he's made a demand and the demand gives you a picture of what he's trying to do with the hostages in the jewish grocery. >> and jim, as far as the situation situation. as time passes we're in 48 hours after the massacre that happened in downtown paris. does this affect the time that has passed for these two brothers and the fact they have
apparently told negotiators they wish to die as martyrs. the fact they have been on the run for so long. does it challenge authorities or is this a positive thing? >> well, that's a great point. you're trying to get inside their thinking and that's exactly what negotiators and the commanders are trying to do. the fact it slowed down since they went there to the printing company or catering company and talked to the witness who was released and said they don't kill civilians. look, when they say things like we don't kill civilians, when they say a thing like at charlie hebdo, we don't kill women. even though they killed a woman after that these are little fingers of humanity. they're trying to grab on a purpose. we're noble. we have a purpose. these are things that negotiators need to know and can use to talk to them and steady the thing down. there's a little time now.
they've been there a number of hours. they're not killing the hostages and throwing them out the front door. so hopefully there's negotiating time. time for the authorities to squeeze in close it in. you know, be ready for an emergency. be ready to get hostages released through dialogue. if you say you don't kill civilian, let's let some go and see how they can work to save some lives. >> and jim, stay with us. we're beginning the second hour with breaking developments from france. it's just after 4:00 p.m. in france. another extremely tense day. we're watching two very active hostage standoffs connected to wednesday's deadly attack on charlie hebdo magazine. on the left you're seeing a town five minutes from the airport. on the right part of your screen downtown paris. a supermarket there. it has been the scene of another hostage take over and
authorities have surrounded it. they are speaking with the person person. apparently inside that supermarket today. that is his face. that is his name. and this is the man police believe killed the policewoman yesterday and currently in the kosher supermarket. as the hostage taker in paris is a primary concern. the man opened fire at the grocery store and said you know who i am. there are reports he's demanding the release of the kolachi brothers. they deal with the unprecedented crisis. we heard moments ago from nbc's
kristin welker that president obama has been briefed. joining me now bill neely is on the scene. bill, good morning. good morning. you use the word unprecedented. that's absolutely true. it is extraordinary. after an unprecedented massacre in which 12 people were killed the biggest terrorist death toll in more than 50 years now we have a double hostage situation an clearly a terror cell that reawakened. the gunmen involved in the hostage situations are connected. may even be long standing friends. we're into the sixth oarhour of this sedgeiege situation. it began when the two chief suspects in the massacre of charlie hebdo bolted out of the
woods. they hijacked a car. the woman whose car it was recognized them. there was a high speed car chase which ended in an industrial area about 20 miles from paris. the men were heading in toward paris. they're not cornered in a printing workshop. it's a family run firm. they are totally surrounded. there are hundreds of anti-terror and police swat teams in the area. there is a hostage negotiator who spoken to one or both of the men. a french lawmaker says that the gunman said they wanted to die as martyrs. but it does seem here at least where we're in the end game of all of this. obviously for the frechblg police priority number one is saving the life of that one hostage and a finder of the french anti-terror team told nbc news that the troops and police would not move in unless that
hostage was killed and unless negotiations completely broke down. obviously once negotiations are open the idea would be to play for time. to wear out the gunmen until any time that the french antiterror police could obviously best case scenario is capture them alive. but, two, absolutely extraordinary situations going on here in and around paris. the gunmen in both locations are linked. >> bill neely, thank you very much. now i want to go to the capitol of france where the other situation is unfolding as we speak. ron allen is standing by in paris with the latest from there. ron? >> well, jose we still keep hearing sirens from police racing by the area heading toward the supermarket which is not far from where i'm standing. keep watching to see if there
are balanceambulancing coming back but i haven't seen any. just more police cars. some are milling around here. i'm not sure if it's becoming a stageing area or something. in any event, the situations are both evolving simultaneously and they're both obviously very connected. people here are watching very closely. this is an area where there have been gathers of huge numbers of people last night and the night before in support and solidarity for the victims of the massacre and, of course what followed. the president of france has spoken today and called for unity. we've heard over the of days there are been, for example, a number of attacks in various mosques in different parts of paris and the surrounding area. there's concern about retaliation. there's concern of the muslim community about retaliation because of this. i was just speaking to a young 17-year-old girl who was algerie
began. we she was concerned about how the americans were reporting was happening. she didn't want it to be seen in a religious context. a candid conversation for somebody happening to walk by here. they are anxious, who are concerned, who are trying to go about their normal lives. who are trying to show they won't be intimidated. the threat of terrorism is more endemmic to this society than it is in america. the president of france said there have been warnings and indications that attacks were coming. he said there have been an undisclosed number of attacks thwarted by authorities. this continues. one thing that is clear the authorities have said they have dozens of people if not hundreds of people who are under surveillance who have been under surveillance since the attack. they're trying to watch them.
the security forces i would imagine, are being stretched thin. there are more than 80,000 being involved in the operation this morning and the supermarket this afternoon. there could be more. there could be people associated with the brothers and the suspect in the supermarket. we don't know. everybody is watching and waiting to see what happens. >> ron allen. thank you very much. what we know is that officials have put out be on the lookout for four people. the two brothers the officials say were involved in the massacre at the magazine. you see them on the left part of your screen. and these two other people that are relatively new as far as information being released by french authorities. these are suspects in the killing of the policewoman yesterday. coulibaly is believed to have
shot the police officer yesterday. boumeddiene is a new player. and the two people on the right part of the screen are involved at least coulibaly is involved in the standoff occurring now in downtown paris at the kosher supermarket. we're joined by middle east expert expert. professor thank you for being with me. can you hear me? >> of course i do. pleasure to speak with you. >> thank you. when you see what is going on what do you see? >> well, this is a different operation than many of the attacks that have taken place in the past. either in australia or canada or britain. i think it is similar to in
terms of gravity. in terms of planning in terms an organization. this is not a lone wolf attack. this is a small unit. highly trained and organized unit. skilled. professional. cold-blooded cold-blooded cold-blooded, and aid logically motivated. we know both brothers have had certain training in syria and yemen. the most recent piece of information very critical piece of information by the american intelligence community is that cerif the younger brother, spent time in yemen has links with al qaeda arabian peninsula in yemen. the al qaeda in the arabian peninsula for your own views is the most globally ambitious of all al qaeda affiliates. as you well know al qaeda in the arabian peninsula in yemen
plotted several attacks against the american homeland. all of them were basically discovered by the americans. we do not know whether the al qaeda in the arabian peninsula in yemen ordered cherif to carry out the particular mission. we have plenty of information that both al qaeda and yemen and isis, the so called islamic state called on their followers to carry out attacks against france. because france is seen today as the spearhead in the fight against militant of al qaeda variety. whether in west africa, mali north africa syria. and also because the culture war. the kug churl struggle that has taken place in france itself. as you well know france in the eyes of many militants, seems to be basically imposing the so called hyper secularism on
society and feel their own identity culture is being targeted bit french state. that's why the targeted charlie the newspaper has been seen as a symbol. >> and just to continue in this information that you're sharing with us today. al qaeda and yemen has been the target of much of america's strikes in that area >>well not only al qaeda and yemen has been basically targeted by the united states in fact you have all out -- >> i'm going interrupt you very quickly. i'm sorry. i want you to continue that thought but we saw on our screen and we're seeing behind the tree here some movement of one person in this industrial park area. this is the first movement we've seen from our camera angles of anything going on near or right above -- we see a second person
now. near or above where the two brothers are corralled. they're not running. they're walking. we don't know it looks like they be running a wire maybe. maybe some communication device directly linking the negotiators with the brothers. this is the first movement we've seen, at least. remember we are some distance from where this is occurring. but this is the first time we have seen with our own cameras some movement. and there you see it. i apologize for interrupting. this is breaking news we're witnessing here together on msnbc. you were saying there is an all-out war by the united states and its allies against al qaeda in yemen, specifically.
>> absolutely. that is the united states has been waging literally a very systemic contained to undermine and weaken and dismantle al qaeda in the arabian peninsula in yemen. it has been plotting attacks against the american homeland. the united states used al qaeda and yemen as the most ambitious. the most potent. the most dangerous. much more dangerous than isis. isis has never plotted attacks against the homeland while al qaeda in yemen has done so. i'm not surprised even though we do not have specific information that about an operation relationship between al qaeda and yemen and the attack in paris. but i have no doubts in my mind in cherif spent some time in yemen has taken it into -- taken the orders the indirect orders by al qaeda in yemen to carry out the particular attack. in fact the magazine of al
qaeda in yemen basically called specifically on its followers to kill the editor of the newspaper charlie because the editor himself is seen as insulting the prophet in his various cartoons over the last few years. >> thank you very much for being with me. i want to go now to the french capitol. lester holt is there. good morning lester. >> good morning to you. what an tense day here. the wail of sirens ratcheting up the sense of tension here in the capitol. it was only a -- capital. we got word of shots being fired not far from where we are. on the eastern edge of paris at that grocery store. a kosher grocery store we're told might have had a lot of people in it. the morning before sabbath. it's a single gunman as far as we know who was apparently
wanted in connection with a shooting of a woman police officer yesterday. we have reported that yesterday and we were told it was not connected to this. in fact police are now saying the shorter, the person holding the hostages here in paris apparently is known to the two brothers. apparently part of the same jihadist group at some point. they have made now that connection between this man this hostage taking and the two men who are wanted in connection with charlie hebdo terror attack here. as we said we heard the wail of sirens in the area is largely cordoned off. strikingly we watch people go about their business here. curiously looking around every time the police car go by. it's not clear the level of awareness in other parts of paris. schools are locked down however. people are asked to stay in their homes. in addition to the neighborhood here traditionally jewish neighborhood of paris, jewish
shop owners are closing up and asked to close up their shops. we should know the sabbath is a short time away here given the time change in paris. very tense situation. twin hostage things going on right now in this area. >> lester holt thank you very much for being with me. joining me now is richard engel. richard, good morning. >> good morning. as lester was talking about, this is the second hostage incident going on right now in france. this was the original one. this began about seven hours. the kouachi brothers france accuses of carrying out wednesday's attack against the newspaper. for the last 48 hours they've been on the run. a massive manhunt has been underway until six or seven
hours ago they came to the village which is close to the international airport. they were spotted by french security officials and quickly got into a gunfight. there are reports that one of the french police officers was shot in that gunfight. as the gunfight continued, the brothers barricaded themselves inside a printing press. that printing press is less than one mile from here. there are believed to be at least one hostage, perhaps other hostages being held inside the printing press by the two brothers, and this village is completely surrounded. a heavy security presence has been brought in. behind me what we've been seeing for the last 20 minutes or so a school that has around 100 students inside they barricaded themselves inside. they couldn't evacuate because they're too close to the incident. they decided to hold barricade in place. extra security forces have been
brought in to evacuate them and bring them out of the town. commandos have brought in helicopters have been brought in. there's been no attempts so far to storm the building and local officials tell us they are in some sort of communications with the kouachi brothers inside the printing press. >> as far as distances, this school from the area where the two brothers are how close is it? zbl>> we're in a village. there are many house, there are buildings. so the actual distance is perhaps a kilometer, almost a mile 3/4 of a mile or so. there's not a clean line of sight.
ninds you as i understand you have a camera angle over the industrial park. i can't see it from where i am. we're in the center of the town. we're in the inhabited part of the town. but we're less than a mile from that industrial park. >> richard engel, thank you very much. joining me now is nbc producer chatman bell at the scene. good morning to you. tell us -- paint the picture of what you're seeing. >> good morning, jose. as i arrived there were hundreds of police on the scene armed with rifles and automatic weapons. they made a cordon around the supermarket where the hostage situation is talking about place. they've been expanding the cordon. they're having the area on lock down. it's unclear what is evolving at the supermarket. there are reports there have been some injured. there have been reports of
people killed a the scene. however, it's unclear exactly what is happening. it appears there's a connection between this shooting and the shooting of a policewoman yesterday in paris. and also -- we've lost that communication. thank you for being with us. the communication is a little bit tricky right now. let me bring in pete williams. pete good morning. so much going on in different locations. of course, the concern must be does it have any international repurr cushions. >> the authorities now believe the man who is holding the hostages at the supermarket was part of the original -- the man on the right coulabily was a
member of the same cell in paris as the kouachi brother. they rounded up number of them in 2005 and cherif was convicted at that point. that's the cell they're talking about. so that's the first point. they believe that they know each other. they have been -- they're long time associates or friends. that's the right word stemming back for at least a decade. what the connection is in terms of what is going on now, whether it was planned in advance, whether it was something that followed on just hastily put together after wards isn't clear. one thing that the authorities point out is that the younger, the one who served time cherif originally told authorities during his trial he wanted to
attack jewish targets in france in paris, and he was later persuade bid a collaric no the place to go is to iraq. he was arrested planning to go to syria and then get to iraq. that lead to his trial and the ultimate sentence of 18 months. he was released for time served. the judge reduced his sentence. you see a couple of connections. the fact they apparently knew each other. the fact that today's hostages in a kosher jewish supermarket, the fact there was interest originally by members of the cell attacking jewish targets in paris. so police do believe this all hazs connection.
>> and the new release of boumaddeine. >> right. they believe she knew coulabaly for a period of time. they believe they've known each other for some time. >> joining me now on the phone from israel is kelly and her niece is being held inside the grocery store. what are have you heard from your family? >> caller: hi. we heard from the family at the 3:00 in the afternoon. she called us and -- her mother. she called us and she told us
that her daughter and her baby are being kept. so we're waiting. >> your niece -- yeah. your niece was the daughter of your sister was able to call her mother and you're saying that your niece has a daughter also in this supermarket? >> no. she couldn't call. she couldn't call. >> thank you very much for being with me. it's such a difficult time. i thank you for your time and being with me this morning. jim kavanaugh on the -- continuing breaking news coverage we have on msnbc.
jim, you know, it breaks your heart to think that a young lady with her child is in there and her husband is outside and they're just separated by such a very difficult time. as time passes jim, we've already said that the situation is going past seven hours. in the supermarket inside paris it's a less period of time that progressed. as we see in the live shot that we have there is some movement of officials back and forth what seems to be the rooftop of the industrial area. what do you think is happening now? >> they're stretching the communication lines. they're stretching their video and audio feed. they may get to use robots. we use robots a lot of times to use equipment back and forth or go up to deliver the scene. they are setting equipment up. that's a good sign in that rural
area. the family of the witness you talked to certainly your heart goes out to her. her family members are in there. it's a very dire news. there's also good signs for her as well. she has to look at both sides of it. there's only one hostage taker that we know of there. there could be the woman with him also. we only know of one. so what lessor numbers of hostage takers is better for the police to deal with. also no one has been killed in the last hour or two that we know about. it's sort of static. and the hostage acre has made a demand. he wants his confederates released. those are slivers but they're positive sign that's police very skilled, the french police are very skilled with their negotiators and tactical unitn'ts can work to the best of the act. there's a lot of things that can work in favor of the law enforcement authorities as we
the right decisions are made at the right time by the onscene commanders they can make this and maybe move it to a safer place. >> certainly something we can hope for. thank you very much for being with me. i think to bring up the fbi nypd joint terrorism task force. thank you for being with me. two different scenes related one to the other. they've been able to contain this in paris, for example, we've been hearing from lester and others they closed parts of other super markets in the neighboring area to where this is going on. but also some distance. >> right. and jim brings up good points about there are some hopeful signs out there about some positive negotiation taking place. and normally you want to try to string it on as long as you can. time would normally be on the side of the officers. so they have additional time to gather intelligence to come up
with a plan hopefully figure out a way to resolve this thing with no more loss of life. but in this situation, the juxtaposition to that you're giving the terrorists tv time which is part of the goal. they want the media attention. for every minute this is on the air, they're getting a minivictory. and then you also would hope it doesn't bring on more people that are watching this and try to use it as a copy cat effect. so trying to find the right balance of coming up with a plan and executing it in the right amount of time without extending it too long. then you have a third situation or a fourth situation. very difficult. >> there's a big difference between a standoff between someone who is distraught and reacts in violent way not having planned anything and maybe can be talked down or certainly, you
know, try to reason with them after they committed a horrible act. it's different than two people who have been planning this who have ideological and religious reasons in their warped mind. how do you talk down someone who carry this out in a cold-blooded fashion has been planning it and to a very high degree proud of what they've done. >> they said we want to die as martyrs. i guess you have to take them at their word. they've shown they're not intimidated by police during the initial attack they took on police officers. so, you know, they have the training. they have the mind set but, you know, still hopefully you can find some type of a threat to latch on to you can open up a dialogue. jim's background as a negotiator can speak to this better than i can. i think they're trying to look for any common ground to keep that dialogue going and move it in a positive direction. but not just string it on indefinitely to just keep getting media attention. >> and, don, so the fact that
there are two focus points now. you talk about the fear and the possibility that something else could break out related directly to this or just inspired by it. >> either/or. right now you have the tactical situations we're seeing unfolding on television, but behind the scenes it's just as busy with the intelligence operation. trying to figure out who might be in the network of these guys and this woman. who are their influencers. what are their commune indication lines? is there anybody else that might come into assist them and then the other aspect as you mentioned, just copy cats that are oneoffs that are not on the radar screen at this point that could be watching and saying today is my day to join these guys. >> don, thank you very much. i want to bring back into our conversation ambassador mark ginsburg former white house
middle east adviser. i want to start with you mikey. these two guys inare related. is it unusual for officials to have taken so long in tracking these two guys down, i mean, we've seen reports they've been on the radar screen of officials since 2005. and one served time. but is it unusual it took this long to find them? >> i think the point you raise is a profound one, jose. just in terms of the history that cherifcouachi and his brother. he was convicted of terrorism charges
he was put in prison on a three year sentence i think 18 months suspend. he was involved in 2005 in a very expose within france as part of a documentary. he should have been on the radar. i just like, jose -- if i can to pick up on the conversation on the enlightening kfgts inging conversation with chuck todd. i want to address what it means if are the u.s. there are key differences here. i want to caution aligning the threat to what we're seeing in france to a direct impact on the u.s. they're very different at the moment. the first there are over 1200 extremists that travelled from france into iraq and syria.
less than 100 managed to get there from the u.s. geographically is a prime example. the access across europe is a lot easier for the trafficking of people, the trafficking of weapons, and the trafficking of funding. it's a lot easier to go from france to iraq or syria than it is to get to america. i think we have to look at culturally as well. france has a culture it's got a history of being in north africa. north africa is split in two. muslim in the north, christian in the south. you have groups such as al qaeda and boko haram that are operating in the north of africa as well. there are links and historical ties to two key areas in syria, which france had a part in but north africa algeria, places like that. that all come back to potentially compiling the situation that france sighing. i want to point out a couple of
key differences between what their seeing in france and how it might impact the france. >> no doubt france has a history it's dealing with to this day. ambassador, let's talk about that and the differences, for example, what we in the united states must deal with an what europe must deal with. going from france to belgium or italy is as easy as going from miami to atlanta as far as how the paperwork is needed. you don't really need anything. but the relationship between france and north africa is very deep. it also goes through the middle east. >> indeed jose. mikey hit the nail on the head. let me put some of my north african expertise on. the name is an algeriean name. it was a horrible interislamic
civil war that was being waged when i was ambassador to more rack more rack koe. hundreds of thousands of algerie algeries were killed. and boumeddiene family probably made their way to france. there were tens of thousands who were able to move to france because there was no border. in effect it wasn't that algeria was a colony of france jose. it was considered to be a part of france. it became independent in 1962. the interesting aspect to this jose, if i may add is that the ghost of an war al maliki the american clerk the leader of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula and the first american who was killed by the united states as a
member of al qaeda was the apparently the original inspirational theological al qaeda attraction to one of the boumeddiene brothers. when he went to yemen and returned to france, you're going to see when it unfolds in my judgment a direct against al maliki the threat in yemen posed not only to the united states which is long understood by the fbi and counter terrorism officials but also by the french. when you also add layer of anti-semitism and anti-israeli that affected france in the last six months it's another bad layer behalf islay er of what is i think going on in france. >> i think it's important we bring the issue up. the issue of terrorism is not new. it's not from september 11th to
2014, i mean, in more rack koe they've been dealing with this for decades. they've had to deal with the issue. they've dealt with it their own way. there's a strong link between france and north africa. even the middle east. than is in some way playing an important role. >> indeed. number one number of two. france was the colonial power in tunisia, in moracco, in algeria, in fact when i was ambassador there it was the forerunner of al qaeda.
the history of radicalism. if you trace how many moroccos how many have traveled not through france but to fight on behalf of isis. we need to understand how important it has been in effect the funnel for terrorism in europe. how much the terrorism comes from these extremists who come from north africa. >> and how long seated it has been. thank you very much. don, there is a difference between how the united states is being seen and how europe and specifically france is being seen by these terrorist groups. >> sure. we've seen so many foreign fighters come from europe versus the united states. and i think it's just, you know there's a lot of reasons for that. i think people feel a bit more integrated here as opposed to outcast over in europe and france. i want to mention something
based on what the ambassador said. al maliki when i was in the fbi, we were looking at the cases of the home grown extremists everything from the plot in 2009 for the subway and others. and anwar al maliki figured prominently. it's not surprising he's shown up in the investigation as well. >> don, the fact we have heard very little from al qaeda versus, for example, isis in the last year year and a half but then also when the united states started bombing in syria we learned of another organization that the united states bombed that first night that they bombed syrian isis targets. that an organization that was little known to at least the public before this attack that the united states felt was very close to planning or carrying out attacks on our homeland. >> if you're speaking about
quarson. >> i am. they were front and center during the makings of al qaeda. these are the committed guys part of the leadership, the taping. let's not forget there was particularly with aqap in yemen their focus is on western targets. they devote a lot of their time and resources and targeting the west. we've seen this bomb maker that was involved with the underwear bomber. there have been trying to perfect, basically, the ability to put bombs on-air craft undetected so they can target the west. that's what they're -- they're committed to doing that. thankfully they haven't been successful yet. >> thank you very much. i want to bring back a former atf special agent jim kavanaugh. i would imagine there's a lot of folks saying what are you doing show g
showing the officials walking around in an area that is dangerous. should we not be showing this image? i haven't seen anything that is going to giveaway, you know specific tactical deployments of the swat team. certainly officers, you know, stretching wire and walking around the outer perimeter is not really something, you know, drn it doesn't mean that much. what you don't want to show is if they're about to ready move in. if things are getting dicey. we asked the media not to show things like that. or to get too close where they can show the movement of every officer. it might harm a hostage. i haven't seen the close shot here that sees that. in a froee society in france too. the media will be everywhere. the police commanders know how to deal with that. >> and going back to the incident that we covered right
here on this broadcast sometime ago in australia where we saw, you know, the aftermath of the officials actually going in. it was in the middle of the night there. the one gunman that had the shotgun apparently decided to move when the hostages and the cafe. he was just one person. they decided to move in. we saw that. it's rare to see that kind of thing. >> right. exactly. you know, what the commanders never forget sometimes the dynamics change because the hostages change the dynamics like in australia when a fellow tried to escape another man, the manager who was very brave he went and grabbed the shotgun of the actor then he got killed and the emergency assault was launched. dynamics can change inside and both of these situations. and that's what the commanders are trying to read what is going on in there. what are the weapons? here are the other thing you talk so much jose about the --
you were knowledgeable. and this is another thing going on that the commanders have to know. what are the arms these guys have in both locations? the rocket propelled grenades if they're being held by the guys is a key piece they have know. what does the guy in the jewish grocery have? a suicide belt on? it raises the stake for the tactical operation. is he wearing a suicide vest? does he have a rocket propelled grenade? is he one man? does he have the girl with him? there's a lot of questions you try to gather the information to deal with the static on scene incident. >> just what we know which is so far removed from what officials know is that, you know we saw these two terrorists these killers, when they were coming out of magazine after they slaughtered 11 people point-blank shoot with an ak 47
inches from body an unarmed police officer with his hands up on the street that had been injured. we know jim, we talked about it on their vest they didn't have to be explosives but a good number of clips for the ak 47. and each one of the i clips have about 30 rounds per clip and they may have them doubled just flipping it from one side to the other. we know these are effective killing machines these guys have with them. >> right. ak 47 rifle or the variants they're carrying it's a high velocity round. they penetrate the vest of a police officer go through them and out the back of the vest. penetrates the car windshield and car metals. they're devastating weapons. >> jim, i'm going interrupt you. we're seeing a live shot of the president. he's boarding air force one. kristen welker is with us. 0 what is the president up to as we speak?
>> jose president obama is about to depart for knoxville, tennessee where he'll talk about college affordability. but we know that the ongoing situation in france was a key topic at the white house today. president obama was briefed on the latest developments. he'll continue to get regular updates. he has been on the road for the past two days rolling out some of the policies he's going to announce in his state of the union address. he's continued to stay on top of the situation in france. we know last night aboard air force one he convened a call with his national security team not only to get briefed on the situation in france but also to get briefed on the security posture here in the united states. federal authorities have told state and local officials to be on heightened alert and there is stepped up security at french embarrassssyies in major cities across the country including new york, d.c., boston, chicago, atlanta. so this is certainly something that is a key focus here at the federal and also state and local
levels. president obama continues to show his solidarity with france while he stays on top of the situation. the ongoing investigation there. yesterday he visited the embassy in washington, d.c. and the white house has called france, one of america's oldest allies, and of course it's a key ally in the fight against isis. president obama heading to knoxville, tennessee. he's talk about college affordability but the ongoing developments in france continue to dominate the conversations and the discussion here's behind the scenes at the white house. >> kristin welker thank you very much from the white house. i want go back to jim kavanaugh, former atf special agent. from 1984 to 1986 i lived in el salvador. some of the most effective killers the guerillas had were 16 to 17-year-olds. they could shot an orange at some distance away.
they weren't necessarily the smartest people in the world. these two killers that we're dealing with are very effective killers, but as time passes i'm wondering what their mind set is. now we're plus nine hours as they've been in the industrial complex. the sun isstarting to set. how do you, as a negotiator, change your tactics as time passes and you're dealing with two well armed effective killers. >> you have to go into their head. that's what the negotiators are doing. trying to find out what it is they want. if you go to the situation out near the airport, you know, they've told you they want to be martyrs. we've talked about the slivers of humanity we identified. they don't kill civilians. we don't kill women. even though they killed a woman. these are possible slivers of humanity. you want to listen to them. look they're into this al qaeda
style theology and they're spewing it out. you have to work it closely. the fellas at the jewish market if she's alone, you know, he's got to keep up with a lot of things. he's been surrounded by the police tactical team he has hostages he has to control. they might not be as cooperative as he thinks. they may want to escape or jump him. the police are closing in. he that is to be looking out the window. he has a lot of things on their mind. they do. and the collective wisdom of the police, the negotiating team the commanders long riflemen that can usually, you know, give an edge to defeat them to save the lives of the hostages. they can kill themselves. they can kill themselves. they can kill the hostages. the wisdom, the practice, the training falls on the side of the police. >> take me into the supermarket now and with this latest incident. if you have a killer in there
who apparently who was very comfortable in killing a woman, a female police officer just yesterday. you have him in there and he says my only demand is you release the two brothers period. do it or else. how do you, as an official bide time? >> you're going to start talking with them. what do you mean you want to release them? >> release them now. give me them now. right now. >> you have to know, how do you know them. why do you want them released? list talk about that. how long have you known them? what's the relationship. get more information. why would you want them released? you'll get him in a dialogue about his wants and demands. as you can drop the emotion, like you said you pointed he killed a policewoman and he may have shot people when he took over the gauche prip as you can drop the e motion you can get a little bit more dialogue. maybe a little bit more reasoning from him. hopefully develop something where there is some humanity
between him and the hostages so he's not slaughtering them. and the police they have to make a tactical maneuver. they may have to shoot him. you have to buy the time. negotiators are great. if they can start talking they can bide time. i think they're doing it in both situations. i think there is dialogue. it will break down. they will hang up the phone. they will not talk awhile. that's pretty standard. they'll be able to get a conversation going. that will help them get an edge. >> think of any sliver of humanity by cold-blooded killer terrorists. thank you. i want to go back now to msnbc contributor and clint. thank you very much. we've been noticing movement on the roof where the brothers are holed up. what do you think is going on? >> a number of things. it could be something as simple as the authorities try to give them a hostage phone. it is a dedicated hand set that is on a wire that we give into the hostages.
the reason to do that because we're shutting down the telephones. we shut down the internet we shut down iphones or anything else. they have to have an instrument to talk on. it could be something as schismimple as that. it could be a negotiations where the hostage takers want food water something like that. as they show a good faith the negotiators may have agreed to do something like that. >> we're talking about what jim calls the small slivers of humanity shown. what do you do with the small sliver s slivers when you're dealing with people who had no problems shooting an unarmed man on the street after killing 11 other people. >> sure. i've done this before. the scenario the negotiations would be i know you shot somebody a couple of days ago but, you know, that was another situation.
it was another world. you moved on from that. you've already made the statement you don't want to hurt women or children. i don't either. you and i have a lot in common there. you have a statement to make. you wouldn't be there if you didn't have a statement to make. i can help you make the statement. we can work it out together. the only way we'll do it is get together and do this. you've got to a couple of choices. number one if you come out later you're only going to get nighttime news coverage. if you come out soon you'll be on both day and both night. what is going to serve your cause better to come out now to come out later? i would think come out now. how do you feel about that that's a conversation of where it might go. >> take me to the paris supermarket where there's one other person who apparently had no problem killing a female police officer yesterday. he's in a market where there are women and children and where he
is insisting his condition be the release of these two brothers some 50 miles away. all right. you're going to start with i understand what you're asking for. we can talk about that. in fact, we're going to work about that now. now we've got at least four of you. the two of you you and your girlfriend should it be this man and woman. you want out of this situation and what the realization only one of you may have fired any shots. you may not have intended. perhaps you were trying to scare the woman and the shot ricochetted off the street. you didn't intend to hurt anybody. i know, you want to get the two brothers out. i can help you, too. if you hurt anybody inside that's going to stop all avenues and negotiations. it's going guarantee the brothers are not going to get out. do you want to get them out or make a statement. let me help you do it.
negotiators may start slowing down. they're going to talk in a monotone. there is a lot of manipulation that the negotiationers -- >> clint, i'm stopping you for second. i want go to the live images now. you see smoke emerging from what seems to be the industrial center where these two brothers have been holed up for plus nine hours now. this is just happening. i'm watching it along with you here live. breaking news on msnbc. the two brothers suspected of killing the 12 innocent people at the magazine two days ago in paris have been holed up for more than nine hours. this is unusual. this is in a small rural area. you're seeing some smoke and
continuing smoke pouring out right now from the industrial center. take a look at the right shot. can we go to the right shot entirely just to see a bigger picture of the smoke emerging from the industrial center in france. this is breaking news right here on msnbc. as many as seven hostages may be inside. it could be just the two brothers with the owner of a print shop that was in this industrial center when the brothers barged in. clint, tell me what you're seeing in these images. >> one of the things you see coordination between negotiationers and the tactical team. if the swat team was going to go in they would want the negotiators to be talking just like you and i just were to keep at least one of the hostage takers fully occupied. the smoke is likely one of two reasons. number one perhaps the hostage takers started a fire for some type of reason. a diversion.
we don't know what. number two it could be part of an assault where gign went in. they used flash bag grenades that have gas and smoke. we see the smoke continue to rise. that could be the situation. an assault could be taking place live we're seeing the result of the smoke overhead. >> and, clint, i'm going to take you seconds ago when this began. let's go to tape we have moments ago when this began. take a look at your screen. this is just moments ago. there you hear it. >> yep. >> okay. flashbang. those are bangs. >> yep. yeah those are flashbangs. that is the very first thing the assault team would do. they would throw flashbangs into the area to disorient the two hostage takers and then gign tactical operators would go in to rescue the hostage and deal
with the hostage takers. >> we're witnessing something that is about to wrap up. somehow or another. we've been seeing this. i want to take you back live now. this is flashbangs. this is not a fire started through an electric fires or the brothers setting something up. this is precipitated from the outside to the inside. flashbangs that precipitate or the introduction to some form of action. that wraps up these two hours of the rundown on msnbc. thank you for the privilege of your time. tamron hall continues with the breaking news coverage in right now. i'll see you tomorrow. >> good morning. we continue to follow the breaking news of the day out of france. there are two ongoing situations connected to wednesday's deadly terror attack. i want to take you immediately to this scene where the two brothers said and cherif kouachi
are holed up in a printing plant. we heard what may have been flashbangs. the first sign that authorities perhaps were ready to bring this stand off to an end. you also see visible smoke. for the first time coming from this location. just outside of paris. near the airport. we have can sandrakassandra. did you marryhear me? >> yes. >> what just played out. as you see on images there is smoke what appear to be flashbang grenades going off. it seems like the french authorities over seven hours of a standoff decided to go in to the printing facility in this small town. there's been a huge police presence all day. helicopters overhead. it looks lik