tv Melissa Harris- Perry MSNBC January 10, 2015 7:00am-9:01am PST
good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry, and this morning i want to bring you the latest on the tense and violent week in france where a string of shootings and hostage takings left 20 people dead, that includes the the three suspected terrorists. now this was the scene yesterday in paris as police stormed the
kosher supermarket after a multi-hour standoff inside with many grocery shopping ahead of the jewish sabbath. police killed the suspect that was believed to be responsible for the shooting death of a police officer in paris on thursday. four hostages were killed in the market. as many as 15 made it to safety. at the same time police stormed a printing factory outside of paris, killing the two men believed to have killed 12 people on wednesday at charlie hebdo. the men, brothers said and cherif kouachi set off a a massive man hunt. officials say the brothers hoped fire at the magazine's office on wednesday during a weekly editorial meeting. they killed 12 people.
the magazine's editor has garnered several other staff members and contributors a guest at the meeting, a maintenance worker and another police officer outside. the attack is believed to be retribution for the publishing of offensive cartoons depicting the prophet muhammad. they were on the u.s. no-fly list for years and one, cherif had serveded a prison term. french officials say the brothers were connected with coulibaly, the suspect in the thursday police shooting and the prid hostage taking at the hostage market. coulibaly reportedly claimed the attacks were synchronized. the french president addressed the situation yesterday after the hostage situations ended and called for unity.
he said he would attend a unity rally in paris where he will be joined by several other european heads of state, includeing the leaders of the united kingdom, germany. ron allen, what's the latest regarding the search for the remaining suspect? >> well the woman, melissa, is still at large, and there's having little information about her whereabouts or what they know about her or her role in all of this. we know she is an alleged police and has a relationship with coup bally. we don't know if she was at the marketplace when the siege took place. there are rumors and reports she may have escaped. there's some speculation she may have never been there. but as you pointed out in your open authorities know a lot about the gunmen involved edinvolved,
the gunmen at the supermarket and the kouachi brothers. one of them was in prison for some time as well. they were under surveillance for some time. this is a period that goes back to 2005 when there was a first arrest. so one big question here is how did this happen when you have suspects under surveillance, or were under surveillance but apparently slipped through the cracks somehow. now there's an extensive manhunt going on in all kinds of neighborhoods all over paris, we believe. it's not very visible, however, because over the past few days i'm pretty confident, you have to be confident, that french investors have plugged into every relationship that they can trying to trace this woman who is missing. she's considered armed and extremely dangerous. but again what her role was and what she's capable of going forward and what her associates and others associated with these individuals, this apparent cell it's the big worry here. the threat the concern about
more violence that can happen at my in a moment here. >> on exactly that point, let me follow up with you. on one hand we see lovely, relatively normal images behind you. young people skateboarding. people walking, being outside, it has the sense of a community that is not at this moment kind of gripped with fear and terror. tell us a little bit about what sort of the mood is where you are, sort of at the beck end of this. >> well it's more subtle than that. people are out and about. but what you may not be able to see is a huge memorial that's been building and getting bigger and bigger. a tribute to the victims, the 17 french frenchmen who have been killed over the past number of days. there are candles, there are flowers. there have been huge gathers in the public square which is why people are using this as a reallilyy ly rallying point. there's a huge solidarity march
to begin here where they're expecting hundreds of thousands of people and leaders across europe to show solidarity with the french people. i think there's still a significant amount of anxiety. people say they're not sure if this is the beginning of something, the middle of something. they're aware it's not the end of something because terrorism and the threat of it is an demicdemic to the society. a lot of worry about what may happen next. already today there have been significant false alarms. there were reports of a shooting near a synagogue that turned out not to be true. reports of a man with a rifle at a sub way station, a metro station. disney land not far from here on the outskirts of the city was closed for a time because of threats or concerns about a threat there. so we've had that since we got here thursday morning. that's one indication of how people are very much on edge.
>> ron allen in paris, thank you for your reporting. we'll check in with you throughout the day today. linda, the executive director of the arab american association of new york, a foreign affairs reporter and former senior british officer. the founder of the moral courage project and charlie senate cofounder of global post and executive director the ground truth project. thank you all for being here. it's a tough sort of moment i think for all of us. but as distressing as the immediate moment is, i do want to pop back a little bit because the reports that the one brother cherif was arrested in 2005 makes me want to remind people what was going on in france in 2005. charlie, can you help us to remember the large riots occurring outside of paris in the suburbs largely around
issues of inequality poverty, and communities of color that tend to come from muslim disecent. >> you framed it well. it is about an economy that struggles to make them feel a part of the the culture and its economy. those suburbs outside of paris have struggled with that for a long long time. we're seeing h horrific murderous event over the last few days. but france has struggled with this for a very long time. i remember covering the subway bombings, the metro bokings when they were really struggling with terrorism. it's interesting some of the preachers who shaped the ideologies of the suspects killed or maybe still at large come from a lot of that background. i think it became like a virtual -- if you remember. there was events occurring with an israel palestine that would
suddenly erupt in the suburbs of paris, as if it had crossed right over to a neighborhood in paris. in the sense of fluidity with the expressions that come out of the middle east of militancy being alive and in many cases dangerously kicking in the suburbs of paris has been with paris for a long time. this is part of what i'm struggling with. that feels like one really important way to tell the story. and certainly knowing these brothers had connection. had gone to yemen, to syria, and had training. and part of what i'm struggle ling with is how much should i understand this as a global narrative, rooted in contemporary islam, even at the most radical edges, versus understanding this as a french story about the long colonial relationship with algeria, with its struggles around immigration
and inequality. like i'm not sure precisely the right way to think about this moment. >> well, nobody is sure the right way of thinking about this number one, because it is multilayered. and charlie mentioned that france struggled with integration, immigration for a very long time. let me be blunt. muslims make up 8 to 10% of the french population. muslims make up 60% of the prison population in france. so already you can see the tensions boil over and in many cases for good reason. but let's not sort of take this narrative. whether the colonial narrative or islam narrative to such extreme that we lose sight of the good news, the hope. and here's the hope. in france the race of marriage
between muslims and nonmuslims is at the highest level ever and it's growing. and historically when intermarriage happens, that is a check against the most extreme aspects of either partner's communities. so this is not going to make the news. this is nonsensational. this is not riveting tv intermarriage, but it is a fact. and the next generation of muslims is looking for much more flurlism, even as it struggles with islamophobia relations in its own economy. >> i want to bring you in on these questions as well as talking about the issue of anti-semitism. all of that when we come back. the pm pain reliever. that dares to work all the way until... [birds chirping]
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the kosher market was not an accidental target. officials told reporters the suspects long planned the attack and cased the location a week ago. france has the largest jewish population in europe, with 500,000 people. but some are citing an increase in anti-semietic. more than double the number that immigrated in 2013. joining ne now, editor at large for the jewish daily forward, jj goldberg. jj so help me to understand all
of this happening in the context of what felt like rising anti semitism for jewish polllations. is there a specific for these individuals, was there a specific strategic appalling region to target a jewish polllation? >> well there have been a series of attacks on jewish individuals and jewish institutions for the last decade. there was a kidnapping torture and murder of a woman. there was an attack of the school. there was the attack by a french individual two years ago on the jewish museum in brussells and numerous smaller attacks. fire bombings and so on. there was a mob attack on the synagogue in paris during the war in gaza last year. it often seems as though the muslim population views itself as -- or at least members of the muslim community identify with
the muslim world and therefore the palestinian population and see the jewish community in france as a surrogate for israel. in the same way that terrorists in israel and occupied territories will attack a school in northern galilee, when they're actually going over the state of israel. they'll attack israeli civilians. there are hot heads in the french muslim community who will attack civilians in the french/jewish community as their way of participating. >> but i do want to be clear. and it's not a problem anti semitism from french muslims. am i misunderstanding that? there is this problem of anti-semitism, but it's not primarily a problem of muslims versus jewish populations there. but rather a question of sort of french citizens in the broadest sense.
>> i don't think that's true at this point. there is a history. there was the dryfess a fair. there was the world war ii collaboration. what's going on now, the incidents that we hear about, and there's a frightening number of the incidents, are basically coming from the muslim population. so as much as we don't want to blame the hot head community for the charlie hebdo killings. we don't want to blame the muslim community at large. there's been a tremendous outpouring from the community leadership in solidarity. but the incidents that are happening are happening from the muslim community. the deputy mayor of paris, who has been on television a lot in the last few days.
and identifies with his parents converted from judaism to catholicism. so the integration of jews into france is very thorough. i was in paris attending a dinner. i got dragged into it. and the guest of honor was the the first lady because she was good friends with the chief rabbi's wife. so the integration on a business level, social level and political level is very deep. and 30% of the french jewish community goes back generations.
70% of french jews are now jews from north africa who have a historic experience and in many cases a personal experience of tension with their arab neighbors. both there and now here. >> thank you so much for joining us. when we come back we'll take all of that we're going to talk about the relationship of muslim communities in france. equal, oral-b toothbrushes are engineered with end rounded bristles so brushing doesn't scratch gums and angled perfectly to remove 90% of plaque for a healthier smile. trust the brand more dentists and hygienists use. oral-b.
according to a 2010 pew study, france has 4.7 million muslims. the largest muslim population in western europe. many are the children and grandchildren of people who immigrated from former french colonies in northern africa. i want to come to you a bit on this one. we just heard about the rising sense of anti-semitism. obviously there's a clear pain and loss in the community right now on the back end of these
attacks. but i also want to talk about the set of policies that are always muslim but not always particularly religious, quite secular communities. in 2005 there were riots after two young men were killed in the community. we know france banneded prayers in 2011. and are different varieties on muslim women wearing coverings of various kinds. including schoolgirls wearing head scarves. >> i mean france gets an "f" in multiculturism. islamaphobia is real. at the same time. both are area. we're having the discussion about freedom of expression and i a.m. charlie hebdo. but we're talking about freedom of expression but we're not
allowed to practice our faith. there's no freedom of religion including muslim population. girls can't wear the head scarves. you can't wear them at work for the government. i mean there's a lot of restrictions. this past summer the banning of protests. you're a european country and you're banning people's right to freedom of assembly and freedom of protest. and this is really a larger problem. i mean for example. right now an article came out that under the watch of the french troops, muslims were massacred while french troops with overseeing the violence. there's a lot of connection of the dots here. we can't look at isolated incidents. i'm disturbed by this freedom of expression. and you know of course you have the right. everybody has the right to free speech and draw whar cartoon you want. let's have a larger conversation
about who else has the right to do things in france and the muslims definitely don't. >> and there's no suggestion that these are reasons or justification or acceptable for the violence that we have seen upon france over this past week. i'm just trying to begin to understand whether or not we should be thinking. the president of france himself said this isn't about muslims. yet somehow that becomes the story. >> it's a multifaceted problem. it has the largest population in 5 million. it does. france also has the most restrictive laws when it comes to freedom of exsuppression and faith in public. it banned the covering of the veil in 2011. they tried to contest that. the european court overruled it. not a french court. you then look at the access to france in terms of the freedom
of borders. that makes the trafficking of people, the trafficking of weapons and the trafficking of finance through the european community, it makes it very easy. you then look at the historical culture of france. over 1200 islamic extremist have been known to travel in. and they are worried about the consequences of what comes back. so the ease of trafficking, it's easy for them to get back. but what about north africa. we have al qaeda, it's reported boko haram assaulted people yesterday. what i'm trying to describe there is it's the approaches i've mentioned. we also look at converts. there are people who take to islam at a late stage in their
life. whether it be from judaism or catholicism or christianity and they pick it up with a sense to commit violence because of foreign policy as a reaction of the u.s. going into ike in 2003. or the fact that we in some cases have created a mistake like libya. >> so again as i'm reading about the brothers and we talk about the peace of islam, and we talk about the training in yemen. but that original arrest is emerging from the 2005 riots, which were not about religious identity. they were, if anything much more about racial i dent and inequality and particularly the not so long ago history about algeria and the sense that there was horrors visited. and so again, it's like in the u.s. here right?
the muslim community has been racialized. nobody understands why we pray how we pray that's not the issue here. my concern with the story is you're on the ugs no fly list. you've been arrested. you served prison time. and then we talked about this on your show before here. then we engage in unwarranted surveillance like in the united states, then we miss out on these people like these two brothers. we missed out on the boston bombers, who were on the radar of the u.s. government. >> when we come back we'll go exactly to that issue. we can talk about exactly this question of appropriate counter terrorism efforts within the context of not wanting to engage in inequality and islamaphobia. out of 42 vehicles... based on 6 different criteria... why did a panel of 11 automotive experts... ... name the volkswagen golf
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attack on charlie hebdo claim the gunman shouted this phrase as they stormed publication headquarters. tell the media that it is al qaeda in yemen. now we now know that said kouachi, one of the two brothers suspected of killing 12 people in the attack was trained by al qaeda in yemen in 2011. since wednesday, french and american officials reported that he spent a few months in yemen being trained in small arms combat and other tactics. during that trip he also met with a prominent american born al qaeda preacher anwar alaki. and yesterday they told the associated press that they ordered the attack for revenge of the honor of the prophet muhammad. and this comes after a threat that yemen's al qaeda in 2013
when they released a magazine placing charlie hebdo's editor on the list with the words wanted dead or alive with crimes against islam. joining me now is former hostage negotiator christopher vass. so a crime has been committed. a horrifying crime. and a crime by someone who was on a variety of international watchlists. was there a failure? is there an overall factyour or is it simply that this is a big thing, and sometimes horrible things will nonetheless happen even if everyone is doing everything right from a law enforcement perspective? >> well clearly there was a failure. but it's a larger failure of collaboration and how much help does law enforcement get because they can't be everywhere. how much help do they get from the surrounding community that these people moved through. this individual moved through a
variety of communities. clearly he was a criminal. they were probablyall criminals and probably destabilized. so the communities that see them failing to alert law enforcement is where they should look. >> so this is an interesting question because you brought up the idea that maybe no one has quite talked about which is an individual story. that these are individuals. you talked about potentially with psychological problems and distress and yet because of the language of terrorism and connection to yemen, we call this group a cell. we think of them as connecteded to a broad international network. in doing that are we missing what could be a more individualized story, or is it right to be telling this as a big connected story? >> well i think it's both. i mean you have to look at the individuals that commit these crimes these murders.
they're violent, unstable people drawn to causes that give them an excuse to commit violence and be violent. we've always said every terrorist organization is made up of crusaders, criminals and crazies. the criminals and crazies become involved to commit the violence. so we try to sort all that out and stop the criminals and crazies from committing the violence is a dilemma law enforcement is faced with. >> i great complily that these are series. but they have to be put in context. i've covered a lot of counterterrorism efforts. they had a sfis kated understanding, i think in france. how they misseded this is going to be addressed. but we're making a mistake if we go too far to say they're not doing their job there.
they've blown it. and i want to add one last thing which is you know these guys are of criminal mind and certainly would have to be mentally ill to do what they did. i think you have to accept that on face value. but if we in america could ever get to the point where we understand the murderous act that happened in a newsroom and put it in the context the way we did when timothy mcveigh went to oklahoma city and did what he did. or john vsalvey who shot up abortion clinics in boston and came out a catholic tradition of anti-abortion. we don't condemn in the the same way, with the sweeping indictments because we look at them as people who are crazy and have done an expression of violence. if we got more sophistication that way, we would solve this crime better.
>> something just alluded to. which i want to throw on its head, the bbc are reporting a neighbor living right next door to cherif has described him as a well behaved, friendly polite clean looking and above all, which is very important, he was willing to help old and disabled people. so if we just go backseat to the conversations we just had about crazies and trying to identify who these mentally ill people are. >> people said the same thing about tim mcveigh. >> it's a complex problem. identifying who someone is before they're about to go and commit something, as this description is just outlined isn't easy. >> so chris, let me come to you on that. that's quite a challenge to what you suggested earlier. they were complicit with people who were obviously ticking time bombs of violence. it's not nbc news reporting that. it's bbc news so i can't
confirm. if those are the the experiences that neighbors had. why would they be informing on their neighbors, and particularly to a french government with whom they have a lot of tensions. >> it's almost a cliche in law enforcement and every case of a serial killer. you can always find a neighbor that described them as quiet polite cooperative. one witness' description of a person being that way is not an indicator of that's the way they were perceived in the community. >> you also bring up the larger point that you have to look at multiple indicators. there are a number of places to look for individuals like this and see where they act out. the very difficult problem is because i've arrested and interviewed people that recruited people like this to commit these acts of violence. and the fine line we always have trouble walking is the fact is the recruiters look for these people in the mosques. that's where they find them.
>> chris, chris, all right. unfortunately, we're out of time. just for this. we're going to stay on this topic. before we go to break, new pictures of a rally for the people in paris. thousands turned out. rallies like this are taking place across france. it will be attended by several heads of state. getting my table back in when we come backment ♪ the nissan rogue, with safety shield technologies. the only thing left to fear is your imagination. when the game's on the line. hit him with a hard count, see if they'll tip their hand. the nfl trusts duracell quantum to their game day communication.
chocolate is my other favorite... but apple cinnamon is my favorite too... and fruity... oh yeah, and frosted! okay, but...what's you're most favorite of all? hmm... the kind i have with you. me too. we've been talking about the france muslim population. the largest in western europe, and particularly the younger generation, many of whom are children of immigrants from north africa. according to a french newspaper report cherif kouachi was one of the terror suspects and raised in foster care. both he and his brother were under scrutiny for years by french and u.s. counterterrorism
officials. and the path to radicalization has brought renewed attention to the young muslim population living in france. joining me mow from paris is ronan farrow. what can you tell us about sort of the younger population in france around these questions? >> well as with so many things melissa, they're not youth issues that the young muslim population confronts, it's the young issues confronting all of france. the most iconic moment of young muslims coming forward was in 2005 when mass riots broke out in a lot of paris' suburbs. the driving factors was economics. a lot of joblessness. they had muslim sounding names on the job market. that hits young people hard # the paris reeling, there's an
ideological conflict. radicalization and cells springing up linked to either theize um lake state or as seems to be the case here al qaeda. so these two separate threats sort of collide and it's all coming forward. it's called a unity rally, but revealing deep fault lines. ethnic, religious and political. >> well we just saw a graphic on the screen a poll taken in france. i couldn't see what date it was. but what do french people think of muslims? favorable, 72%. unfavorable, 27%. that very much squares with my experience of france and i have to say that you know for all of what we're talking, the different potential motives and multilayered nature of french society, i am more convinced than ever that the path to radicalization for these two
brothers was the prison system itself. and i say this because we have seen prisoners in the jails of southern iraq, ooupsupervised by the u.s. and coalition partners. we've seen those prisons become recruitment camps. we've seen them become mosques in them of themselves. many, many isis fighters. >> they come out of the prisons. those prisons are turned into mosques. where radical preaching takes place. this is why, as i think more about your question at the very top of this show is it a narrative about france today, or is it a narrative about, you know, the global sort of spread of islam and what's happening in its name? i the fact that you know these brothers were in some way radicalized by yemen, and that
isis has come out of -- not just those places but also the prisons and that these brothers spent all this time in prisons. i'm connecting the dots right now. i'm thinking the path to radicalization for these two, not for everybody, for these two, may have been the fact that they were subject to this kind of preaching in jails, which is where they met their mentor. and when you finally connect it back to the fact that as i said earlier, 60% of the prison population in france is muslim or of muslim heritage there's a problem. >> ronan let me come to you on that. if you think about the experience of an average american tourist in france and our understanding of france as a great ally and then we think of france as a very free space. in fact, many going to france during the period of jim crowe,
in part because it felt like a freer, less racialized space. but to hear her reminding us of a prison industrial complex that we don't typically associate with our understanding of the french, all happening at the same time right? both the historical legacy of a free space and the contemporary legacy of imprisonment? does that square with you? >> reporter: that's exactly right. if sor long the remain was france and many other countries were better integrated. it favorly compared integration in the united states. obviously that is being called into question by all the news we're seeing. and it's been institutionalized in a troubling way. 5 million muslims live in so-called sensitive urban zones. which essentially means these are areas now passed over for surveillance, that are considered something of a lost cause. so exactly what you're talking
about, about these populations that are inaccessible to law enforcement and leading to tensions and violence we're seeing right now. i'll go back to how big the the problems is in the minds of french people in general melissa. 8% of the french population is muslim. the perception of how much of the french population is muslim f you ask a french individual, 31%. that says a lot. >> yeah we've seen similar statistics like that in places around the world but also in the u.s. you see that overestimation associateded with stereo typing and other types of problems. >> and i don't know if you could hear melissa, but we had shoutings. we've had it all day. people revealing exactly how tense this is. it's really striking here. >> thank you so much. i got to see you here in new york just as you were heading off to paris. thank you for your reporting
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the standoff between french authorities and the two brothers suspected in the charlie hebdo massacre may have ended just as the brothers intended when they were killed in a raid by french security forces. according to the associated press, a local lawmaker who was inside the command post during the siege told a french television station the brothers said, they quote, want to die as martyrs. jim kav nacavanaugh, former hostage negotiateer and retired fbi in charge. how does it answer the question of navigating with the hostage taker if they have indicateded they prefer death are at least are quite willing to die? >> well like we saw, they did die, melissa.
informed, the brothers charged the tactical officers and the man at the market charged the tactical officers, too, if you watch the videos what a great panel this morning. they have the insight, but we watch these guys in law enforcement. we listen to the intelligence people, the scholars. we tried to get inside these people's heads. but these guys are so classic, so classic. al qaeda, recruitment. recruitment of people by these agents. and i think you're spot on. it takes these tracks you know especially in the expatriot community, in a country like france, where the muslim population has a lot of trouble with the people the government where economic issues -- people search for a meaning. they want out of that. they want to get out of that. so it starts with the search of people for a change. how do they come to grips with the way they're being treated in
society? and so they search for something. and they search for religion. but they get the agent of influence. they don't get religion. they get a terrorist fake preacher, which in this case they got a janitor as a tony preacher. and as you're other guests talked about, the prison. so they would have really taught them religion they wouldn't have got to the terrorists. and then that fulfills a need for them. religion transcends centuries and transcends national boundaries. so that go to their identity. and then they go to second thing which lot of people have. the the same people young reason join the military or the police to be heros in the community, to help the community, to sacrifice for the community. but al qaeda and its agents of influence have learns how to exploit it. they've done it around the
world. >> it's an interesting point. that question of being willing to sacrifice oneself, of being bigger than time. those are the things we see in a sieve rights movement that we tend to hold up. those are also when twisted, the same kinds of things that lead to this willingness to die, in this case while killing others as opposed to making change through nonviolent direction action. thank you so much for joining us. it's quite an intense moment. i appreciate you, jim, in nashville, tennessee, thank you. we're going to go live to france for an update with a team of reporters there. and of course my panel still has much more to say. please stay with us. out of 42 vehicles... based on 6 different criteria... why did a panel of 11 automotive experts...
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good morning again from new york. i'm melissa harris-perry. a violent week in france that left 20 people dead culminated yesterday in near simultaneous raids on a kosher market in paris where a man had taken several people hostage, and on a printing factory outside the city where the two brothers suspected of killing 12 people at a satirical magazine were holed up. now at this hour in france police are searched for the suspecteded accomplice of coulibaly, who police say shot dead a police officer on thursday and killed four hostages in a kosher market in paris yesterday. before being killed himself by police. and nearly the same time as police raided the market, police outside paris killed said and cherif kouachi, after they killed 12 people at charlie hebdo. the attack of the magazine is believed to be retribution for
the the publishing of cartoons depicting the prophet muhammad. cherif said he was sent by al qaeda in yemen. a member of al qaeda in the array ban peninsula also took credit for the attacks. the kouachi brothers had been known to count terrorism officials. they were reportedly on the u.s.-no-fly list for years and one had served a prison sentence for recruiting frerj nationals. and the friday hostage taking of the kosher market. coulibaly reportedly claims the attacks were synchronized. the french president has called for unity in preparation for a rally under way tomorrow. on friday president obama spoke about the attacks in a speech in knoxville, tennessee. >> france is our oldest ally.
i want the people of france to know the united states stands with you today, stands with you tomorrow. we bereave with you. we fight alongside you to up hold our values the values that we share, universal values that bind us together as friends and as allies. >> joining us live now from paris, nbc news correspondent ron allen. have there been new developments in the story or the the understanding of the relationship between the suspect at large and the other three to this are now dead? >> the short answer is no. there is not much more about the relationships between these four individuals. and that's the thing that authorities here are most interesteded in trying to learn. first, they want to apprehend the woman, of course who is still at large. they want to understand exactly who these people know in addition to each other.
is this a viability terror cell quote,/unquote. were they really connecteded to al qaeda in iraq? and coulibaly said he for example, was working on behalf of isis. at least that's what he said to french mediate at the the moment of the attack or before the attack. and isis and al qaeda in the a arabian peninsula are at odds. it doesn't make sense they would be working together. the question is do they have real ties to people outside of this country or inside of this country who directed this. if they did, that's a bigger problem than if they were inspired by this or acted alone. so those relationships and the capability those relationships suggest are some of the biggest questions that the shorts have here. >> ron allen in paris, thank you for your continued reporting. at the table in new york executive director of the arab
association of new york. the founder of the moral courage project and charlie senate cofounder of the cloebl post in the break, we were talking about kind of the question of where europe is in this moment related to questions of identity and how those questions are then connected to as ron was saying wlosht these are individuals acting in perceived solidarity or an actual relationship with these terrorist organizations. >> i think there was a moment just over 300 years ago of a treaty very important in european history. ft where europe decided it was no longer going to be based on religious ideal. it was going to be based on sovereign ideals. that's the moment it went from being christian or muslim and decided people will identify
themselves as a frenchman or brit or german. i don't think the middle east has been through that moment yet. and when we're looking at our own foreign policies we have to understand where we are in our evolution versus where we're trying to engage with in their evolution. and egypt is a classic example. egypt has been through the moment, in my opinion, with the president morsy who is very much of the islamic faith. the way he ran the country, the people he put in power, the ministers of security it was all about their faith before their actual twablt to run the u department. and egypt chose to be an egyptian. ch that's what they should be using. >> it's an interesting question. >> egyptian 2,000 years ago, 5,000. depending on how you measure it. i don't know if i would agree with that. zblmt in terms of democracy. >> it's an interesting question
about the central identity in the u.s. we tend to think of that move as coexisting with rjs plurism, right? >> even if imperfectly, at least in theory right, that in the u.s. you could have a public public secularism but people are allowed to practice their faith and part of what happened in france where racial identity is not acknowledged, where religious identity is not acknowledged, that decision towards french identity still ends up sort of shoving down other identities rather than incorporating them. or am i missing them? >> we have that here in the united states. yes, i can practice my faith. i can work for the government if i wanted to. but i fill feel like an other. and my community has been otherized in the country. and islam, we believe we are part of a global family. so we do have -- we feel we have
a connection to a black muslim in sudan. and we have a connection to an iraqi muz limb and this idea of when there's oppression anywhere in the world, my question is always sh den there's never a justification for violence. but the question is why doesn't anyone go to the root of the problem? what cause someone to want to kill themselves and die? what kind of condition do you and your community live in. we looked at this in the suicide bombings. do you ever see a saudi prince committing suicide bombings? do you see a doctor who is a multimillionaire doing it? it's always the poorest. >> except for the son of a millionaire. ft. >> but osama bin laden was sending the poorest. osama bin laden himself wasn't the one committing the acts. >> so this is an interesting question. so let me ask about this a bit. when we hear terrorism in the u.s. we think of particular frame works and our frameworks
earlier in the week i thought, this feels like the boston marathon. later in the week it feld like 9/11, like in firms of the way we think about this. is there a framework that is the right to be thinking about. >> boston is any hometown. we had that boston strong moment we now see in paris. be not afraid. it's a wonderful movement. and i think a wonderful way to counter this terrible attack. but i've covered this in the cities i've liveded in boston. london. the subway bokings. i lived for years through the bus bombings in jerusalem. when you live in a place, whether from there or not, you experience them in a deeper way. what i want to point out is let's flip the question around. the martyrs were executeded in their meetings.
the martyrs are the people who risked their lives through freedom of expression to take on something they believed in. it was truth to power with laughter. truth to power that was sometimes crude and insulting to religion, which i don't personally like, but i love the the right to see it. that's what i love. i think this is an attack on my community, our community for our journalists here. because we lost a colleague. ch jim faux lee was beheaded by isis this year. he was with us at global post. he was brutally brutally treated before he was beheaded with two other american jurnlists. what i think is happening right now is an attack on freedom of expression that is concerted. do we know there's a cell in paris? i don't know. that's a complicated question. do we know what motivated them? >> i don't know. but there's a trend. >> you're stepping back. >> i think there's a new front in the war on freedom of
expression. through a new front that is let's go after the messengers. >> and yet charlie, yet. over the last several years i have received countless messages from young muslims around the world who have said you know whatever cartoons i may be offensed by i am way more offended by the violence committed in the name of our faith. so free expression through and through. and they have even made the point routinely that their right and ability to expression dissent, let's say with foreign policy is dependent on other people's, you know freedom of expression. >> right, right. even with them with whom we profoundly and deeply -- >> absolutely. >> last week we sat on the show and asked could we think of 2015 as the year of talk. we asked whether we wererer did to have conversations with people we find distasteful,
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on wednesday, nigeria faced an act of terrorism so brutal it's being called the most deadly terror attacks in world history. the nigerian terror group boko haram may have killed 2,000 people in a small city. the guardian reports most of the victims are children women, and the elderly, unable to escape when insurgents invaded the town. many survivors of the attack fled to nearby lake chad where
some have drowned and others have remained trapped on small, unstable islands, facing starvation cold and disease. wednesday's attack follows an assault four days earlier in which boko haram overran a military base. it marks an escalation of the ongoing inurgency. joining me now from washington, d.c. is akai perets. the counter terrorism analyst and author of "find, fix, finish." help me a little bit here. is part of what's -- i mean obviously whenever we're reporting breaking news other items are going to fall off the agenda. we have been very focused on what is going on in france. but is it also because we somehow see nigeria as a civil yar rather than an act of terrorism? help me to understand how 2,000 people are killed mostly
civilians and children women, and it barely come into the consciousness of western media. >> well it's actually relatively simple reason it's because there are no reporters and very few individuals reporting from that specific area. you remember part of eastern nigeria is quite sparsely populated. it's a difficult place. beau boko haram is committing all kinds of massacres for years and beyond in that area. it's also an area between nigeria, cameroon and chad where there are just not many people reporting from. so when you have something like the paris shootings where you have hundreds of reporters and bureau chiefs, news agencies there. you can report on it. but unfortunately in africa and especially in eastern nigeria, you really don't have people
talking about it. at issue is african news really gets short stripped here in the western media. for example, since the '90s there's been a civil war in the democratic republic of congo, which claimed up to 5 million people. i've never really seen it on tv. it's one of the worst wars in memory. >> stick with us. don't go anywhere. let me come to you on that. you were saying in the break that there's a way in which even as we're having conversations about who who are victims of terrorist, this is indicative of a blindness of how we think of this question. >> i think we have selective outrage on who are the victims. 2,000 people yes, there's not a lot of reporters there, but we do have u.n. posts there. right? we know what's going on there. i read about the congo and central african republic all the time. i also think we don't have the same conversations we would have
2,000 people massacred in gaza. we weren't having the same conversation. for me personally also looking at when we talk about isis and the beheading of journalists, for example, horrific. but isis and muslim extremists are killing more muslims than people in the midwest. who are the real victims. >> let me go back just one second. and i promise i will get back here. i want to go back for a second and talk about vulnerability here. it seems in addition to the question of media resources there may will less o a sense of vulnerability. it happens in paris. it may feel like it could happen in new york for example. but the first installation of attack before boko harameau koe hah -- boko haram, it makes me wonder is there any reason to think in a week in which this was
occurring with boko haram and paris that there is something going on with global terrorists that is about heightened vulnerability for all? >> well that's the thing about terrorists and terrorism. it can sort of be morpheded into anything. there are a lot of terrible things happening all over the the world, all the time. in the same day the charlie hebdo attack occurred a suicide attack in yemen killed 30 people. it almost did not make it into the news except for those who actually follow this. as we all know the yemenese are fighting a multifront war as well. there are all kinds of atrocities happening in that area. in terms of nigeria, remember as you said that on monday the boko haram, these are armed troops and according to reports, the troops kept fighting until they ran out of ammunition. they had o to get reenforcements
and they were not forthcoming. what do you do if you're a soldier out of ammunition? you run. therefore they took over a military operation. >> thank you so mch for joining us this morning. up next the apparent bombing of an naacp office. the world is filled with air. but for people with copd sometimes breathing air can be difficult. if you have copd, ask your doctor about once-daily anoro ellipta. it helps people with copd breathe better
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♪ nothing beats that new car smell ♪ ♪ chicken parm you taste so good ♪ ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ ♪ mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm ♪ we want to take you to paris where france's interior minister is speaking about preparations. >> several security areas where they installed lout the itinerary itinerary. parking will be forbidden to all cars and all itinerary.
nearby subway stationses will be closed from 11:00 a.m. in order to avoid crowd inging. -- will be closed starting at noon for the same reasons. the other stations subway stations will be closed as appropriate in coordination with the subway system to facilitate dispersion. public transportation will be particularly watched in the capital. ladies and gentlemen, 24 global units will be deployed composed of 2,500 men. the plan will be kept at a high
alert, and the mobilization will allow us to continue the protection of sensitive places. i think about media headquarters. all churches or confessional schools. and the 2,000 police will be mobilized in paris. and around the paris region. i remind you that there will be rallies all around france from today today, 700,000 of our fellow citizens marched all around the country country.
which are cities like paris, they will have rallies again tomorrow. exceptional measures are being mobilized to ensure the safety of israelis and whom i've asked to be extremely vigilant. the first of the republic first minister as well as other heads of states from other countries will participate with israel. so these are exceptional measures give tennessee scope of the rally. the mooning, symbolism and context. so we are taking these measures to ensure the safety of this rally that will allow those who
wish to come together and think about those who lost their lives associated by terrors. and i thank you. >> that was france's interior minister giving an update on security preparations for the unity march tomorrow. i do want to turn back for a moment to a domestic incident. an explosion tuesday at the colorado springs chapter of the naacp subject of the investigation by the fbi, which is considering all possible motives for the bombings. the detectives say an explosion near a gas can that houses the naacp chapter. no one hurt in the explosion that caused only minimal damage to the building. a spokesperson said the device did not appear to be detonated accidentally. friday the fbi released this composite sketch of a possible person of interest who was
described as a balding white man, approximately 40 years old, two is driving a 2,000 or older white pickup truck. the fbi is offering a $10 thourk reward for information leading to the arrest of the person responsible for the bombing. i first heard because people on social media were saying hey, no one in the mainstream is covering this. we'll have more tomorrow. i thought it fit into the conversation about how it fit into what we ought to be afraid of. >> to linda's point, no one paid attention to what was happening. the slaughter in nigeria, to the extent where i've recently done reporting there. we were writing about it. this is not getting covered. that's true. the point is too broad. we have jernlists on our team at global post and at the ground truth project who every day are out there reporting on the innocent people who are brutalized by terrorism. but what i would say is qualitatively different is now it's an attack on the people who
risk their lives to go and tell those stories. so people like jim foley who is there on the ground in iraq trying the to bring home the truth of the war and in syria trying to bring home the truth of. when we find out the terrorist element is now targeting them us, the people who do this i think there's a qualitative difference because it will really hurt our ability to understand what's going on. if we don't have people on the ground, if we don't have people there going for the ground truth, then we're not going to know what's happen manager the world. that's why i put it at a higher level of concern. we all need to really think about what happened in paris. >> charlie senate thank you for joining us this morning. it's part of a conversation we'll continue to talk about as we move forward. the rest of the panel is sticking around. i do want to let you know tomorrow on this program we're going to have more on the bombing of the naacp of
colorado. also tomorrow, my interview with golden globe nominee selma director ava. >> the idea that anything i'm doing is being looked upon with any kind of pride, you know i said to one of my key collaborators about this as we set about to do this work,ty producing partner, paul garnes i want to really do something special with this. i have a lot of goals with it. one of the goals is to make black folk proud of it. black folk proud of this history and to really walk away with a sense of care and tenderness for this time and everyone who fought for freedom during it. bargain paper towels but the roll just disappeared. bounty is 2x more absorbent so one roll lasts longer. bounty. the long lasting picker upper
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the french magazine charlie hebdo, demonstrators in paris and other european cities gathered in public spaces in a show of resistance to the attackers and a show of solidarity for those attacked. they held a national memt of silence and raised pens and signs reading je suis charlie or in english, i am charlie. a treaz that quickly became a trending hashtag on twitter. the same was done in the afp newsroom. part of an effort to offer support for the stricken magazine. on thursday night the eiffel tower went dark in tribute to the 12 people murdered in wednesday's attack. the unity rally will be led tomorrow in paris by the french president, a rally that will be attended by the leaders of spain, germany, italy and great britain. a senior administration official tells nbc news that the u.s. ambassador to france will also attend. we've seen similar outpourings
here recently in the u.s. with the boston strong public rallying cry after the 2013 marathon bombing. and some might even argue that insisting we go see "the interview" after hackers threatened terror attacks on theaters, that was an act of public defiance. it obviously means something to a lot of people to show solidarity in the wake of a terror attack or threat and in public. so i want to explore that now. charlie was making the point that part of what happens here is journalists are attacked. and then journalists are part of what lead the expression of wait a minute you know we -- i am charlie. we are all together. is that sort of movement of solidarity a counter terrorism effort? like we will not be afraid. >> i think it sends a necessarymessage. a lot of discussions are what are the messages that are said?
a self sacrificing martyr. when they're carrying out that act and perpetrating the act, what message is that sending to us in the way that tens of thousands came out on the streets of france is an act of defiance. it's a message to say we're not affected by this and we're rallying together. it's important. the strategy for countering this is an interesting one. we talk about the technical aspects in terms of intelligence and the ability to look and listen. i think the real answer lies in humanitarian intelligence. it's in the intelligence community. and it's establishing those relationships within the muslim population within france and in this context, but more broadly, to self f police. and that's something i would love to hear linda's thoughts on in terms of having people of influence and power within the muslim community speak out over atrocities atrocities. so for example, have we heard from pakistan on the atrocityiesatrocities?
have we had condemnation recently? and that's important. >> interestingly enough. the nigerian president, good luck jonathan speck out against the terrorist attacks in france and did not mention boko haram in his own nation. the challenge for me isn't about my anger and disgust at the death that these 12 would be killed. it's that it would be impossible for me to say i am charlie hebdo. given some of what has happened. i want to read to you from -- this is arthur chu. he says they were human beings with families friends and loved ones. their death should be mourned for that reason. no more so than the sodesko building may not mans man or the two police officers cops also killed in the crossfire. >> and the difference between the others that you mentioned, this boston strong or i'll ride with you campaign is i am not
going to say i'm not charlie. i will fight for charlie hebdo and all cartoonist rights to draw whatever they want. i am not racism. i am not big bigotry. that's what charlie hebdo was for me and my faith. i'm not going to act on criticism of them. it's like me saying i'm the new york post. i'm not going to say that. it's important for me. the police officer. a noble man who took oath to protect the people of france was the first person to be shot down by his own fellow muslim. why can't we just be french? why can't we be i am french too, versus for me i couldn't bring myself to that place. >> i am charlie because i love irreverence and irrev reference is key, in my view to independent thinking. whether it is aboutist lam. about islam. whether it's about fascism or racial discrimination.
so i think, you know the messaging here -- go ahead. >> charlie hebdo, he went -- he mocked catholicism, judaism. >> but i do want to ask the question. we'll take a break. but you know this is slightly different. but on the question for example, of bystander responsibility for sexual assault on college campuses the white house came out with it's on us campaign in which they were asking people to stand and say it's on us, sexual assault. i'm a sexual assault survivor. i can never wear a t-shirt to say it's on us. to do so would be the idea to take on it's on me as a survivor. so as we do solidarity can we say of course i will support charlie hebdo without saying i am him. of course it would never be okay to kill but i also -- so much more. more on this. we'll go live to paris as soon as we come back. [container door opening] ♪
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we've been discussing the solidarity shown in paris and throughout the world after the assault of charlie hebdo on wednesday and subsequent attacks believeded to be connected to it. i want to go live to paris, france and chapman bell for a better understanding of what we can expect tomorrow at the planned unity rally. chapman? >> reporter: melissa, hi. i'm here in front of the supermarket, one of the hostage situations from yesterday. where four people lost their lives. there's an outpouring of people coming to pay their respects. all across france impromptu gatherings of people. tens of thousands of people. and we're expecting hundreds of thousands. one number i've heard is 700,000 people taking to the streets here in paris in solidarity in
unity for -- to remember these people killed in these horrific accidents or horrific incidents i should say, over the last few days. security will be tight, as it is all across paris and it has been for a few days. world leaders for several european countries are expected to be in attendance. the u.s. ambassador to paris will also be there. a huge gathering of people to remember everything that's happened over the last few days. melissa? >> chapman bell in paris, france, thank you. i want to go to aki peritz who is still with us, and to simply ask you, basically, given that now there will be a large gathering of people of people showing solidarity is there any particular heightened concern in this moment, given what we've seen in the past week? >> i would suggest that the french government should take every precaution to make sure
this rally which is going to attract all kinds of leaders from across the globe as well as tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of regular citizens, make sure these things are as safe as possible because now you've created a very large, very static very accessible media centric target for anybody who would like to do harm or violence to further attacks on france. and so i would suggest that people should be at a heightened awareness. i personally don't like being in large crowds for this sort of reason. especially in political issues. i'm sure the french government will pull out all the stops to make sure everything is secure. >> let's come back. this unity rally is meant to show this sense of i am paris. i am france. for me it's much easier very easy to say compared to i am charlie hebdo, only because of the particular history, for you it's a history of irreverence. for me it felt more angry, nasty
than that. but which clearly never should allow this kind of violence. and so i guess i wonder if the act of standing in a public space, knowing there is the possibility of increased violence is an act of courage. we will stand here. you won't scare us away with our fellow men and women. >> being black in the united states and walking down the street is courage for me. one thing as an american and i look at them from the perspective, here we are calling for a unity rally. there's going to be hundreds of thousands of people. in our country here we have editorials calling for the unwarranted surveillance. congressman peter king former mayor giuliani saying we have to get mosques to the u.s. we have to up the count terrorism effort. so while we're trying to create unity, in the united states we
continue to divide communities in the country and what that does, is the impact that it has. the fear in our community now, the community that i live in when we walk in the streets, muslims in southwest brooklyn are horrified. they're like please let this pass. worried about the government but also the potential backlash that can come against us. >> just want to quickly say that, you know what i hope for tomorrow melissa is unity is not confused with uniformity. because in france there is still very much a dogma. not just a philosophy, but a dogma that you are not to be presenting yourself in any way, shape, or form as a person of faith. and that obviously, you know reduces pluralism, it reduces diversity, it reduces integrity, the wholeness of an individual. >> unity without uniformity. i am french. i am france. i am paris. >> i am many things at want. >> aki peritz in washington,
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welcome back. i want to bring in now from washington kristen welker. talk to me about the administration's response as to what has unfolded this week in france. and among other things, we know that attorney general eric holder is traveling to paris to attend an international ministerial meeting there tomorrow. >> reporter: that's right. we know those will focus on violent extremism and foreign fighters, two characteristics we saw in these attacks in paris. those meetings come after a weekend in which president obama has been briefed regularly on the ongoing situation in paris and the posture here in the united states. we know federal authorities have urged state and local officials to increase their awareness. we know krurt has been increased
at french consulates in major cities across the united states cities like new york washington, boston, atlanta. stepping up its patrols for a period of time. there is no known threat here in the united states. but obviously federal officials remain vigilant as they continue to monitor the ongoing developments out of france. >> we heard the president say that france is our oldest ally. i'd like to listen to that and then ask you a quick question about it. oh, i'm sorry. i don't have it. but the president said france is our oldest ally and he wanted the people of france to know that the u.s. stands with them. and yet i don't want us to forget -- that's going back to the 18th century. post-9/11, there was some tension between our nations, there was a sense of a lack of solidarity. we've talked a lot about complicated pasts here. as we move forward from this immediate moment of grieving do
we expect to be kind of lockstep in line in terms of our relationship about counterterrorism or do we expect some of these fault lines to open again? >> reporter: i think it's a really important point, melissa. the president has been so focused on expressing the united states' solidarity with france despite that very complicated history that you just mapped out. and in large part because, remember, france is a key ally in the fight against isis in iraq and in syria. white house press secretary josh earnest making the point over and over again this week that french fighters have flown alongside american fighters. while there is that complicated past, certainly the two nations have moved forward in lockstep to some extent in this new fight against extremists in the form of isis. so i do anticipate that that will really shape the future of this relationship moving forward, particularly in the wake of these attacks, melissa, as we were just discussing. attorney general eric holder is going over to france to hold discussions.
the united states along with not only france but other european allies have to address this threat together. >> nbc's kristen welker at the white house this morning. thank you. not much time, but i want to give you a moment to reflect and weigh in here. >> i'm thinking about it all still, i mean real time. >> linda, as we think about the u.s. as our role as our relationship with france, just communities, your reflection on that? >> the first country to recognize the independence of the united states was morocco. for me as an american and looking at me as an american or looking at a french muslim as a french christian or a french jew, this idea that -- of pluralism, that we're all equal. it's important in any conversation that we have that any anytime an incident happen, we have to look at the details. we can't zero in and focus on this obsession we have -- and this term that i don't want --
that i don't use, which is islamic terrorism. >> terrorism is -- >> terrorism could be anything or muslims can commit terrorism. but terrorism can't be islamic, for me. it reflects on the kind of conversation i see on the news what my young people are watching. and back to the naacp, this idea that there's a white man in our country who has the capability of detonating bombs and i don't know where he is right now. and if it was an arab or muslim would our country be taking the necessary security steps we should be taking. >> last 30 seconds? >> i think the problem is holistic. the counter needs to be holistic. we have to compartmentalize these issues and not apply it all with a broad brush. we have to look at our own foreign policy. and kristen just talked about how france was part of the military role. what are the imams teaching in the mosques? the prisons, is it a good opportunity for reform.
so many different facets of this we need to look at individually and look at the holistic approach. >> tastatue of liberty, its origin is the middle east. it was given to america by france but its origin is the middle east. >> thank you to my guests this morning. that is our show for today. thank you for watching. see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. tomorrow my interview with ava. police search for the suspected accomplice in the terror attacks. why experts say this woman is more dangerous now than ever before. a show of solidarity around france as hundreds of thousands march against terror and now an even bigger gathering in the works. protecting journalists from attacks like the one on "charlie hebdo." hear from a u.s. senator on what needs to change as journalists
face new threats to their safety around the world. i'll be right back. if you take multiple medications, a dry mouth can be a common side effect. that's why there's biotene. it comes in oral rinse spray or gel so there's moisturizing relief for everyone. biotene, for people who suffer from a dry mouth.