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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  February 19, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PST

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ge you to take it back and quickly, because it really does no good at all, except score political points with those who hate. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> they're fighting for their god and all i can say is the person who has god on their side is going to win this. >> holy war talk from a republican member of congress as a majority of americans now favor ground troops to fight isis. >> these terrorists are desperate for legitimacy. >> tonight, as the president fighting his critics have we learned nothing? then, the political fallout from rudy's horrible obama remarks. >> i do hear him criticize america much more often than other american presidents. >> plus, benjamin netanyahu commissions a poll that would make dick morris blush. >> we're going to win by a landslide. >> the raise the wage campaign scores its biggest victory ever. and my exclusive interview with the former cia agent who did two years in prison for talking to a
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reporter about torture. >> you're the only person that has gone to prison over torture. >> yes. >> how do you feel about that? >> "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. nbc news has learned that iraqi military force backed by u.s. air strikes and possibly even american ground troops could launch an assault to retake the iraqi city of mosul from isis fighters as early as april. this news arrives on the same day that a new poll shows for the very first time a majority of americans now favoring the use of ground troops in the fight against isis. it caps a week in which war rhetoric has dramatically ratcheted up. a senior u.s. official from u.s. central command told nbc news pentagon contempt jim miklaszewski that as many as 20,000 iraqi military and kurdish forces could be involved in the operation to retake mosul, iraq's second largest city. the official said that if needed, u.s. ground forces
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including special operations forces and forward air controllers used to call in air strikes could also be involved in the operation. eerily arriving on the same day, word that for the first time, a majority of americans would support u.s. ground troops in the battle against isis according to a cbs news poll. 57% now favor using u.s. ground troops against isis. that support represents an increase. 47% in october of last year and just 39% one month before that. furthermore, 65% of americans now view isis as a major threat to the u.s. the war rhetoric is also not limited to discussion of isis or even iraq. a member of congress is now suggesting that the proposed authorization to use military force in the battle against isis include the nation of iran. congressman ed royce, republican of california and chair of the house foreign affairs committee, was asked in an interview about including iran in the administration's proposed aumf.
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>> do you, personally i don't know what the committee would do, but would you support giving the president the explicit authority to strike at the iranian nuclear capacity if they do not abandon it themselves? >> i think it is a good idea. and i will tell you, hugh there are two jihads going on. one of them is the isis jihad, which you and i are familiar with. the other is something that's not being talked about that much, but that is the jihad that's coming out of iran. >> that comment comes as hawks in congress are doing everything in their power to destroy the possibility of a deal with iran on its nuclear program. and a rise amid a crescendo of drum-beating for more war in the middle east with the u.s. waging those wars. and it furthers a week of particularly harsh criticism that has been unleashed on the white house. not only that the proposed aumf should more explicitly allow ground troops but that the president of the united states is not employing the correct war rhetoric. and that particular brand of criticism has not stopped.
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>> when you have the president of the united states unwilling to identify who the terrorists are as islamic radical jihadists, how can you solve a problem? we're taking god out of this country, they're fighting for their god, and all i can say is the person that has god on their side is going to win this. >> president obama speaking today at a global conference on violent extremism, bluntly responded to the complaint that he is not identifying isis as islamic terrorists. >> we have to confront the warped ideologies espoused by terrorists like al qaeda and isil, especially their attempt to use islam to justify their violence. these terrorists are desperate for legitimacy. and all of us have a responsibility to refute the notion that groups like isil somehow represent islam, because that is a falsehood that embraces the terrorists' narrative. >> if the terrorists' narrative in this case is coming from isis that they are fearsome and
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threatening and coming for the west and coming for the u.s. well that's a narrative being embraced all throw american politics and media at this moment. joining me now, lawrence korbes former assistant secretary of defense, and matt dust president of the foundation for middle east peace. mr. korbes let me begin with you, since you were at d.o.d. a while back. what do you make of this news leaking of a planned offensive against mosul, which seems at first blush at least a bit strange, because obviously there is no longer any element of surprise, were there to be one? >> well i think the isis knew we were going to come to mosul. what's very significant about this, back in the end of november, general dempsey, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, said we would go after mosul in the first quarter of 2015, but he said we'd need 80,000 troops. now they're talking about 20,000, which is a big difference. and the fact is that i think it shows that we're making some
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progress. the military always does worse case. if he could go from 80 down to 20 you know, to be able to take mosul, i think that it shows that you know, we are degrading them at least militarily. >> well let me follow up on that, and matt i want to ask you a question. this seems to me to be something that is essentially never talked about. i mean basically, we're getting these horrific images of isis that make you feel angry and terrified and disgusted. that they're beheading christians on the beach in libya or killing the japanese photographer or the jordanian pilot, that is distinct from whether they're having a good six months from a strategic standpoint, in terms of the ground they hold. and there's some evidence to suggest that they haven't had a good six months in terms of the ground they hold.
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>> okay again, i think it's important that we've killed several thousand of them and they are replacing them but the troops that are coming are not nearly as effective as the ones that we've killed. the kurdish -- the peshmerga is getting much better. we're beginning to train the iraqi forces. i don't worry so much about them going into mosul, because as that same pentagon press release talked about there's 1,000 to 3,000. i wonder what happens after, and i wonder what's happening if you're using shiite militias as part of this 20,000 troops force. >> matt, you were -- witnessed the buildup to the war in iraq in 2002 and 2003. it feels to me an eerily similar kind of crescendo happening, in which it's very hard to find any kind of perspective, or to find anyone asking hard questions about what actually happens the day after isis might be defeated or the fact that isis is a creation of the last military intervention there, or the fact that the last place in which we
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intervened militarily, 2007 in libya, we now have isis. are we just repricingseing all of our mistakes? >> i think the problem here is that it's a very seductive idea that military force is decisive in a way that political or diplomatic or the economic tool all of these other things are not. and i think that's very appealing to people. because they're confronted with these images day after day of the brutality of isil and they are brutal. they are a monstrous organization, there's no question. so i think it gives rise to this idea that we just need to strike them and we'll solve the problem that way. but i agree if anything should have the disabused us of this idea, it's the last decade and more of iraq. and i just want to pick up on something that larry said. yeah, so okay so even if we take mosul, we will still be stuck with the problems that we were stuck with in iraq which is that we have a shiite-dominated government, that's not inclusive. you have a sunni minority that feels completely unrepresented. this is a problem that we
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couldn't solve with over 100,000 troops in iraq. so the idea we're going to address it now, i just see no strategy for this. >> well larry, you made mention of the shiite troops and that gets to the fact that whatever political solution there might be to isis seems incredibly difficult to get your hands around. i mean what do you think we're going to see? are we going to see more u.s. ground troops in iraq before all is said and done? >> well you might see -- we already have 3,000 troops. the real question is are you going to send large combat divisions like we did when we invaded iraq? i think that's off the table. and, you know, when i saw your poll about the americans supporting this as matt just pointed out, they all supported the initial invasion of iraq. i think if you do use them and you have spotters on the ground that can call in air strikes if you need to maybe some special operations forces that's allowed in the aumf the authorization for the use of military force that president obama has set up. but that's what i said the real
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question is what happens after you get mosul? who's going to run it? are you going to have shiites in there? are you going to go house to house to root these people out and cause more damage? and then the final analysis, we're not going to defeat isis militarily. we have to undermine their narrative, so that young people around the world are not -- in the middle east and around the world are not attracted to join them. >> matt, i want you to respond to congressman royce. this is a fairly prominent republican he's the chair of foreign affairs, talking about including iran in the aumf. off situation now in which there is a war of all against all that's happening across syria and iraq. in which you have american members of congress who want us to be fighting assad, isis and functionally iran all at the same time. >> yeah. it's just crazy. there's no other word for it. i mean we're in the midst of a
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very delicate and very important and potentially very significant negotiation with iran that while would not solve all the problems, it would take the nuclear issue off the table and create the possibility of addressing some of these broader issues, between the united states and iran that could have very positive implications for u.s. security and for regional security. now, the idea that we would include iran in a declaration of war and authorization for the use of military force, i mean if you want to you know, empower iranian hardliners to simply withdraw from the negotiations, that seems like a great way to do it. and it seems agreesincreasingly clear that's what a lot of these hawks in congress want to happen. >> i just cannot imagine. i mean, we have -- every force that is currently fighting in iraq and syria is a force that at some point, some prominent member of congress or politician or media outlet has called for the u.s. to use military force against. and at a certain point, i mean, you imagine a quagmire of just
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ghastly proportions, should we see more and more u.s. troops brought in there. lawrence korb and matt dust thank you very much. >> thanks. why it seems like america's mayor doesn't understand the meaning of the word "patriot," ahead. ameriprise asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you have enough money to live life on your terms? i sure hope so. with healthcare costs, who knows. umm... everyone has retirement questions. so ameriprise created the exclusive confident retirement approach. now you and your ameripise advisor....
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earlier this week i sat down for a face-to-face on-camera interview with a former spy. and interviewing a spy, as you might imagine, is tricky business. before we go further i've got to ask you this. i've had some experience in talking to spooks in my reporting career. and two things have struck me. one is a lot of them seem a little crazy. and the other thing is you guys are trained, paid liars. >> yes. >> so it's like why should i believe anything you're saying to me now, right? i mean you literally, professionally lied for decades. >> yeah you're trained to lie. you lie all the time. you lie, you cheat, you steal, you swindle, you trick people. that's the nature of the job. >> more of my interview with
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john keraku the only is official to go to prison in connection with cia torture, coming up. ♪♪ expected wait time: 55 minutes. your call is important to us. thank you for your patience. waiter! vo: in the nation, we know how it feels when you aren't treated like a priority. we do things differently. we'll take care of it. vo: we put members first... join the nation. thank you. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ how do crest 3d white whitestrips compare to a whitening toothpaste? let's see. the paste didn't seem to do much for me. the whitestrips made a huge difference. that's not fair! crest whitestrips work below the enamel surface to whiten 25 times better than the leading whitening toothpaste.
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crest whitestrips. the way to whiten last night in manhattan, a group of conservative economists, media figures, and business executives came together for a dinner featuring wisconsin governor and likely 2016 gop presidential candidate, scott walker. and with walker just a few seats away, former new york mayor rudy giuliani addressed the crowd, had said something that even he knew was horrible. quote, i do not believe, and i know this is a horrible thing to say, but i do not believe the president loves america, giuliani said, as quoted by politico. he doesn't love you and he
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doesn't love me. he wasn't brought up the way you were brought up and i was brought up through love of this country. giuliani was asked to elaborate this morning on fox news. >> well first of all, i'm not questioning his patriotism. he -- he's a patriot, i'm sure. what i'm saying is that in his rhetoric, i very rarely hear him say the things that i used to hear ronald reagan say, the things i used to hear bill clinton say about how much he loves america. i do hear him criticize america much more often than other american presidents. and went it's not in the context of an overwhelming number of statements about exceptionalism of america, it sounds like he's more of a critic than he is a supporter. >> okay. giuliani opened that comment by saying he was not questioning the president's patriotism. what he had said again, was, i do not believe the president loves america. so here's the actual dictionary definition of the word "patriot." quote, a person who loves and strongly supports or fights for his or her country. so rudy giuliani is correct. he was not questioning the
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president's patriotism. he was flat-out calling the president unpatriotic. so, anyway scott walker who again was sitting just a few seats from giuliani last night was asked about giuliani's claim today on cnbc. >> the mayor can speak for himself. i'm not going to comment on what the president thinks or not. he can speak for himself as well. >> did you agree with those comments? were you offended by those comments? what was your reaction when you heard them? >> i'm in new york. i'm used to people saying the kind of things -- >> you know, people say the president's not patriotic. quick side note here. louisiana governor bobby jindal a likely walker rival in the gop race decided to send out a statement proactively this afternoon, quote, governor jindal refuses to condemn giuliani for his commons. since he wasn't at dinner just so you know to be clear, bobby jindal really wants all of us to know, he is squarely on team obama doesn't love america. now, back to scott walker. i want to be completely clear about what was going on last
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night. in addition to giuliani the dinner attendees were reported to have included larry kudlow arthur laffer and steven moore, as well as anti-tax activist grover norquist central figures in the gop's decades-love love affair with supply-side economics, whose driving concern is cutting taxes for the rich. what they want is to stick with the mitt romney and paul ryan agenda, and they're now auditioning to find a better vessel to sell that agenda to the american people. scott walker they seem to think they may have found their man. joining me now, charles pierce writer at large at "esquire" magazine, and a staff writer at grant. charlie, it's been a long time since i've seen a politician say something preceded by i know this is a horrible thing to say, but get to the claus, comma, and just keep going. >> that's right, once you get to the phrase "i know this is a terrible thing to say, but --" is when you take off your sock and stuff it in your mouth and you don't talk for the rest of the evening. chris, remember when you and i were young and mccarthyite used
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to be an insult? >> yes, yes, i do. >> well it's not anymore! it is permissible within mainstream republican and mainstream conservative dialogue to say anything about this president. >> really. it really is. and this is something, i mean, the president doesn't love this country, he wasn't raised the way you and i were -- which is just gross i don't know what that's supposed to mean but he wasn't raised what you and i were raised who knows what rudy giuliani meant by that. but also the fact i was genuinely, i will say, i was genuinely, and i probably shouldn't be surprised, genuinely surprised that walker didn't just say, of course i think the president loves this country. rudy giuliani doesn't speak for me on that. easy! like he won't say it he wouldn't say it! >> hey he's still backing and filling on charles darwin. he's got to work his way up to rudy giuliani. not only is this a party full of bullies, it's a party full of cowards. you heard rudy giuliani try to walk this thing back today, and as you pointed out saying i wasn't questioning his patriotism. well you weren't questioning his sense of style, pal.
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everybody knew what you were saying. everybody in that room knew what you were saying. and to have walker come out and say, well, it's new york, you can hear you know, anybody say anything. this wasn't some guy yelling out the window of a cab. this wasn't some guy on a soap box in central park. this guy was standing up in front of an audience of the creme de la creme of the conservative movement. i mean, you talk about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. you have the four horsemen of the fiscal apocalypse in that room. >> and to me what that signifies, i think, is that they are auditioning -- they see in scott walker matt o'brien, i think, a writer i follow on twitter, said he's the candidate for people who think that republicans just need to change their message or their packaging and not really change any of their ideas. that scott walker there's a sense that okay maybe this can be the guy who can successfully run on essentially the ryan budget and the mitt romney agenda. >> yeah, well he's the -- you know he's the mitt romney who doesn't have a car elevator. you know he's got this weird kind of blue-collar thing going now, and he's a victim because
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people have shouted terrible things outside their house. and, you know, i -- i saw this coming the night i was in milwaukee, the night he won his recall. i said this guy is everything everybody thinks chris christie is. all chris christie has done is yell at the various bets noir of the republican party. this guy's beaten them all. this guy has heads on his wall. and i thought that was a very compelling thing. the only thing i wondered about -- actually there are two things i wonder about. number one, why so many people who work for his campaign are going to jail. number two, whether or not he could overcome this charisma deficit he obviously had, and he did that in iowa. and now i think people are looking at him as a serious contender. >> and yet in the last week this is where i think, this is the peril that all republican front-runners or establishment choices or whatever you want to call them are going to have. which is, they believe it is impossible for them to survive a republican primary or not damage
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themselves by saying they believe in or they accept evolution as a theory of natural development, or that they of course, think the president loves this country. there's going to be one of these every week. and those are going to accrue. and they're going to come back to haunt whoever it is who ends up with the nomination. >> well i mean this is a chronic problem that goes -- no that has gone back to at least 2008 where john mccain felt obligated to put sarah palin on the ticket to -- at least partly to appease these people. you know we all saw what the clown car looked like in 2012. and it looks like in 2016 we're going to have a clown suv. >> i'm reminded also when you talk about mccain of there was that sort of iconic moment remember, where at one of these town halls, these town halls were getting rowdier and rowdier and angrier and angrier, and someone basically got up and requested the president, at the time senator obama's patriotism and john mccain basically put him in his place and said no -- you know called him a muslim. you're never going to see that
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in this version of the gop -- >> to me that was the high point of the 2008 mccain campaign, was that moment with that woman, where he said no he's not, he's a good american citizen, a fine family man, whatever. okay. none of the guys or ladies who are rumored to be are uprunning for the republican nomination have those kind of stones. it's simply not viable anymore, given the fact that you know, the size of the genie that's been let out of this bottle. >> charlie pierce as always a pleasure. stay warm up in boston. >> thanks! thanks, chris. all right. good news for half a million walmart employees, plus more of my exclusive interview with the only official who ever went to prison in connection with the cia's torture program, ahead. think aarp, you don't know "aarp." aarp's staying sharp keeps your brain healthy with online exercises by the top minds in brain science. find more real possibilities at aarp.org/possibilities. i make a lot of purchases for my business. and i get a lot in return
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there's record-breaking cold across the country today. it's winter, so it's supposed to be cold but it is really cold. so cold that things like this are happening, we think, although there are some in the office who are skeptical this could actually happen according to nbc meteorologist bill karins. this morning in barrow alaska the northern-most city in the u.s., it was 13 degrees. in nashville, tennessee, it was 11, and it was 40 degrees in both juneau alaska and new orleans. it's even cold in florida. cold for them. it's so cold there that the national weather service has issued a freeze warning for the town of frostproof. it's a real place. something called the siberian express is responsible for all of this. it's actually cold arctic air from northern russia and it's
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predicted to be even worse tomorrow in some places like here in new york and this weekend, more winter precipitation -- this is like a sick joke at this point. more winter precipitation predicted for some including the state of massachusetts, where boston is already buried under 96 inches of snow. so really the only solution to cope with a seemingly never-ending winter is to stay inside and watch videos like this and contemplate whether they're real or not. [bell rings] you're not mr. craig. yeah, i'm confused where's mr. craig? well, i'm sorta mr. craig. we're both between 35 and 45 years old. we both like to save money on car insurance. and we're both really good at teaching people a lesson. um, let's go. cool. sit down! alright. sorta you, isn't you. only esurance has coveragemyway. it helps make sure you only pay for what's right for you not someone sorta like you. i think i blacked out from fear... did we ask him where mr. craig was? we did. esurance. backed by allstate. click or call.
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store management in the united states that comes from our hourly ranks. so today's cashier is tomorrow's store manager. tomorrow's store manager may have my job. so we want to make sure that that opportunity is there for people as it has been for some many of us in the past. >> upon hearing walmart's decision to pay its workers an hourly wage nearly $2 more than the federal minimum wage that currently sits at $7.25 an hour and hasn't been raised in over five years, the white house hailed the announcement and used it to put pressure on congress tweeting, quote, good to see walmart raising wages for about 500,000 employees. now it's time for congress to hashtag raise the wage. today's news also comes after years of political pressure from a national movement of low-wage workers and groups supporting them, from black friday protests and nationwide strikes to actions outside stores to workers exercising their right to unionize and also facing tremendous recrimination, there's been a sustained push to get retail employees a living wage. one of the groups that's been fighting that fight, a group called our walmart, put out a statement today claiming victory, but also pointing out,
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there's still more to do. quote, we are so proud that by standing together, we won raises for 500,000 walmart workers. adding that, quote, this announcement still falls short of what american workers need to support our families. for years, the walmart name has been synonymous with both low prices and low wages. the question now is could we imagine a future in which that changes? joining me now is saday with the national law project. so this is good news. this is big. that is a very significant raise for the people that are getting that raise. >> that's right. i mean look it's a significant raise both because so many workers are going to benefit, with 500,000 workers, and because walmart is the largest private employer in this country, employing 1.3 million workers, really through its actions sets the wage floor for this very low-wage sector that's growing. >> this is a really important point, right? because people -- other places other retail that are essentially competitors for walmart or competitors for hire
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those people right, we could imagine there's going to be some spillover wage effect for folks not even working at walmart. >> that's right. and in fact walmart is responding to what retailers before it has done. one of the reasons why walmart is raising its wages now, is because it is facing competitive pressure from other retailers like gap and ikea, that raise their minimum wages last year costco that pays a $12 an hour starting wage and nearly $20 an hour average wage. so walmart is responding to this realizing that it can't retain a workforce when it has to compete with companies that pay well and also provide, you know, good schedules, which is another issue. >> so let's talk about that in a second. but first, the big question to me also is are we seeing the fruits of sustained political activism organizing and pressure, or we're finally seeing some tightness in the labor market particularly at the bottom of the wage scale, which is what raises wages in a kind of econ 101 sense? >> we're seeing both tightness in the labor market and competitive pressure meaning
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that walmart is responding to it. we're seeing the fruits of very intense organizing activity over the last couple of years and walmart workers going out on strike and raising awareness to things like walmart doing a food drive for its workers, because its workers were relying on public assistance to make ends meet. you know, all of that feeds the consciousness. and then the third thing is we are seeing a radically shifting political and economic landscape, where 29 states have raised the midgenimum wage above $7.25 an hour. where cities like seattle and san francisco have instituted $15 an hour minimum wages. and in this environment, walmart's $10 announcement almost sees antiquated at this point, right? so that's why the workers are saying, look this is a great first step and it's welcome, was there is so much more to do that we're not going to stop. >> and there's also an interesting backstory here in terms of how walmart has reacted in the past to external efforts to mandate higher wages. >> total transition. >> completely obstinate and refuse. in d.c. there's a d.c. ordinance that was going to require a certain floor on the
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wages at that walmart store. they basically lobbied very hard, spent a lot of money, got the mayor to veto it. something similar happened went down to chicago, and they were basically like we will walk. what's fascinating to me is like, will well -- it's as much about power as it is money. about who gets to say when the wages get raised? >> exactly, exactly. and when you have you know, the momentum that's happened over the last couple of years, the fact that these workers, both walmart and workers have put $15 an hour into the national conversation about what our economy needs to recover, that is immense political power that walmart, you know, today showed that it was responding to. >> do you think we're going to see anything like this in the fast food sphere, which has been the site of so much sustained organizing? >> i think -- i mean look. i think that the fast food movement started two years ago and has already achieved immense gains, both in terms of raising workers' wages, being the force behind many of these minimum wage laws that went into effect and starting to bring the corporate parent to actually listen and be at the table, so
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who knows? i think it's two years is a very short amount of time but i think today's announcement bodes well. >> yeah. and hopefully tight labor markets continue. t tsedeye, thank you so much. >> thank you. ahead on the show -- >> when do you first hear about the program, as i believe they called it in the agency. >> yeah. >> am i right about that? they called it program? >> yeah the program. >> more of my exclusive interview with the only cia official who ever went to prison in connection with that program in a few minutes. 's time to drop your pants for underwareness, a cause to support the over 65 million people who may need the trusted protection of depend underwear. show them they're not alone and show off a pair of depend. get a free sample at underwareness.com.
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only one current or former u.s. government official has gone to prison in connection with the bush-era torture
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program. john kiriakou former cia officer, who once worked at the agency's counterterrorism center and who pled guilty in 2012 to intentionally disclosing the identity of a covert agent. kiriakou got out of prison earlier this month, 23 months into a 30-month sentence. yesterday, i sat down with him at his home in virginia, where he's in and out under house arrest, to talk about his time at the cia and his role in making the agency's torture program public. by 2007 there were multireports in the press describing the so-called enhanced interrogation program. then in an interview with abc, john kiriakou became the first current or former cia officer to confirm on the record that the agency had, indeed waterboarded a detainee. >> my understanding is that what's been reported in the press has been correct, in that these enhanced techniques included everything from what was called an intention shake, where you grab the person by the
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lapels and shake them all the way up to the other end, which was waterboarding. he resisted. he was able to withstand the waterboarding for quite some time, and by that i mean probably 30, 35 seconds. >> that's quite some time? >> which was quite some time. and a short time afterwards, in the next day or so he told his interrogate that allah had visited him in his cell during the time and had told him to cooperate, because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured. >> the man kiriakou is discussing in that clip a man by the name of abu za beta, he was on the team who helped capture that prisoner in pakistan, but wasn't present for the interrogations he described in that interview, and it turns out some of the information he gave abc was wrong. as detailed in a justice department memo from 2005 which came to light in 2009 abu za beta was water bothered at least 83 times, as opposed to just 35
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seconds. and as the senate report from the cia, the quantity and type of intelligence produced my zubaydah remained largely unchanged by the use of torture. kiriakou has come to feel very differently about the cia's detention and interrogation program than he did back in 2007. when we spoke yesterday, he gave me his perspective on what happened to abu zubaydah starting with the mission to capture him in pakistan back in 2002. >> we were told by headquarters at the time that abu zubaydah was the number three in al qaeda. that turned out to just not be true. he actually had never joined al qaeda. and he had never pledged fealty to osama bin laden. but he was an al qaeda associate. and he was the director of al qaeda's two training camps in afghanistan. so as such even if he wasn't the number three in al qaeda, he was a pretty important target for us. >> but you're operating at the time thinking, we've got the number three. >> oh, yeah. >> you must have been stoked? >> oh, absolutely. in fact, a lot of us felt it was
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just too good to be true that, you know, we've hit this one guy, we've hit this one guy, we're not going to catch the number three in al qaeda just by going out and looking for him. >> but you do catch him. >> elwell, we did catch him. >> so now you've got abu zubaydah. what happens next? >> well, he was shot and severely wounded in this raid. he was shot by a pakistani policeman in the thigh, the groin, and the stomach by an ak-47 and we didn't think he was going to leave. we got him medical treatment that night. once he was stabilized, we flew him to a military hospital nearby. and he was there several days spent most of it in a coma. we had a couple of brief conversations. and then, finally, the cia sent a private jet in with a trauma surgeon from johns hopkins university hospital. and they flew him off to a secret site. >> when do you first hear about
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the program, as i believe they called it in the agency? am i right about that? they called it program? >> i went back to headquarters in may or june of 2002 and i heard about it i think it was probably the middle of august when i first heard it. from a colleague who i had served in pakistan with. >> and you hear about it as sort of water cooler chat as a formal briefing as -- >> water cooler chat in the hall. yeah. that zubaydah had recovered from his wounds he was not cooperative, and that they were going to waterboard him. >> what is your feeling at the time about the program? like what is the feeling in the halls? like do people know this thing's existing. do they know that you're hearing it thirdhand? >> 99% of the people in the agency had no idea that this was going on. >> people literally had no idea. >> no idea. this was a very closely held program. and i'll admit to you that i like many other people was still
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so angry about september 11th i thought, well if these murderers don't want to cooperate, then we have to get rough. >> do you now feel looking back that the decision to do this was fundamentally driven by that kind of thirst for repriseal reprisal. >> absolutely. >> as opposed to some strategic -- >> oh, there was no long-term plan. right. there was no long-term plan. just like guantanamo. guantanamo was only supposed to be a temporary holding site until we could figure out where to put these guys on trial. and trials never came. and here we are, what is it 14 years later, and we still have guantanamo. in the agency, at the time and i'm talking about midway through 2002 now, there was no long-term plan. it was still all about reprisals. and at the same time osama bin laden had said that he was planning an attack that would dwarf september 11th. and we were petrified that would happen and we would be caught flat-footed again. >> do you have more occasion to
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hear about the program, about interrogation, about -- >> oh, sure. as time went on more and more people began talking about it. and that's how i heard that abu zubaydah had been waterboarded and that he had cracked, which is what i told brian ross on abc news in december of 2007. that turned out to not be true. >> so you hear that he's waterboarded and he's cracked. you come away thinking that -- >> wow that worked. >> right. >> wow. that was fast. that's what i thought. >> the senate intelligence committee's report on the cia detention and interrogation program released this past december revealed that abu zubaydah had provided interrogators with valuable intelligence before he was tortured a finding which contradicted the cia's assertion that so-called enhanced interrogation techniques were necessary because he'd stopped cooperating. the senate report revealed many other disturbing details about the cia program. ice water baths, detainees subjected to severe and prolonged sleep deprivation, threats of sexual violence to
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family members. and while the foreword to the report states that they had violated the law, none faced prosecution, a fact that's not lost on john kiriakou. he's now on house arrest serving out the rest of his sentence for identifying a covert officer to a reporter. you're the only person that has gone to prison over torture. >> yes. >> how do you feel about that? >> very disappointed. and not because i think people involved in the torture program should just across the board be prosecuted. i don't. i think reasonable people can agree to disagree about whether or not those people should be prosecuted. i don't think they should. but -- >> you don't think they should be prosecuted? >> no because they thought that they were following the law. they were told that the justice department had approved these torture techniques. that they had been signed off by the national security council and the president, and that what they were doing was legal. i get that. i understand. but we now know from the senate
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torture report that there was a lot that was done that was not authorized by those national security findings that was not approved by the white house. and in a couple of cases, people died in cia custody. i always maintained that there were torture techniques worse than waterboarding. sleep deprivation can make you so crazy you can't participate in your own defense. that's inexcusable. it's illegal. the cold cell where a prisoner is stripped naked, placed in a 50-degree cell and then has ice water thrown some him every hour. people die from those kinds of things. why aren't those officers prosecuted? >> that's interesting. so the line that you see for prosecution should be that things that were done within what agents were told was in the bounds of the law shouldn't be prosecuted, even if that actual retroactively was an erroneous legal judgment? >> exactly.
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i believe it was an erroneous legal judgment. i think that the justice department's office of legal counsel was wrong in issuing those opinions. but if you're a cia officer at the working level and the justice department says, go ahead and do it it's legal, well, if you don't have a moral problem with it what else are you going to do? >> but those incidents that we've learned from the senate torture report in which that was exceeded -- >> yes. >> you think that should be subject to -- >> i absolutely think that those officers should be subject to prosecution, yes. >> we reached out to the cia for a response. they declined to comment. up next the legacy of the torture program and whether a retired spy can be a reliable narrator of history.
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so you can. [coughing] dave, i'm sorry to interrupt... i gotta take a sick day tomorrow. dads don't take sick days,
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dads take nyquil. the nighttime, sniffling sneezing, coughing aching, fever, best sleep with a cold medicine. you guys are trained, paid liars. >> yes. >> so it's like why -- why should i believe anything you're saying to me now, right? you literally, professionally lied for decades. >> yeah. you're trained to lie. you lie all the time. you lie, you cheat, you steal, you swindle, you trick people. that's the nature of the job. yes. the problem at the agency, oftentimes, is that those guys don't know when to turn it off. >> do you know when to turn it off? >> i hope that i do. i think that i do. >> joining me now, counterterrorism expert, malcolm mans. i thought that his point, john's point about prosecution, what do you think, first of all, to
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start this off, about the fact that he's the only guy who's seen the inside of a jail cell for this entire program and what he did was talk to a reporter about it. >> well within the intelligence community, you're always going to have a dim view of people who disclose highly classified information. unfortunately, when you're dealing with clandestine agencies like the cia, naming someone in their true name is a federal felony. he has copped to that. he admits to all of that. and he's served his time for that now. but the very fact that he is the only person who has been brought to account for activities which certainly coming from my perspective in the world, you know, i stand for the honor of the program that actually was brought out. that's the survival evasion, resistance, and escape program, which was brought out, drawn from the blood of tortured american service members, and what was reengineered into this
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program, which he described earlier. it's almost shameful. >> do you think he's hated, kiriakou? i get the sense that he is persona non grata inside the cia. >> well, he's a convicted felon. but he divulged that classified information, and that's what he's been held to account for. but the broad program of individuals who literally decided that these activities which the world has seen forever as torture, which we prosecuted people for in world war ii, was good enough for us to use. that in itself is a crime. i mean it's certainly enough to besmirch the entire honor of the united states. but that people should be held to account for that. >> what do you think the legacy of that period has been for counterterrorism and
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intelligence now? have things gotten better? is there some sort of internal repudiation that's happened, or is it basically, that was a bad chapter and if we have another attack and someone sends the order down again, we'll go back at it? >> well, let's just look at this on a day-to-day basis. look at today. we have isis and a large-scale al qaeda facility that is now taking over terrain in various parts of the middle east fulfilling bin laden jihad, executing people wearing the orange jumpsuits of prisoners that were sent to guantanamo bay and abu ghraib. the entire last 13 years that i've been operating throughout the middle east, i just came back from seven years in the middle east. every person has brought up abu ghraib, torture, waterboarding, and all of these atrocities, these activities which were carried out by u.s. personnel and u.s. government agencies. this is not the standard that we needed to defeat these enemies. we cannot allow a moral
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equivalency with our -- with the opposition. >> it's fascinating, you say that, of pointing out those orange jumpsuits, which has become now so iconic in the snuff films that isis seems so fond of. respond to someone like tom cotton, senator and veteran who says, that's making excuses for evil making excuses for the enemies. they don't need an excuse. how dare you bring that up. >> well you know, tom cotton, of all people should know better. he was a servicemember. he swore an oath to uphold and protect the united states, but not just to protect the citizens of the united states. we have a 200-plus-year history of serving with honor. and if honor and the dignity of the united states and when the united states armed forces goes into war or our intelligence agencies go into operations and we can't do it cleanly, then you know you're not actually working for our goals, you're working for our enemies' goals. we can not empower isis. we cannot empower al qaeda.
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we cannot empower boko haram to go out and do what they believe we've done. >> malcolm nance, really a pleasure. thank you, sir. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thank you, my friend. >> you bet. >> and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. we think of texas as a deep red state, where republicans are totally dominant. but like the rest of the south, texas was 100% blue not all that long ago. in the 1960s, when the democratic party embraced the cause of the civil rights movement, texas and other states in the deep south went through this whiplash right, where they had been lockstep democratic states but their party loyalty was no match for their hatred for civil rights. and so texas and all these other states started flipping from the solid blue they used to be, to the red that we know them to be today. and the guy who led all of that at the

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