tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC March 4, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PST
ll or speaker boehner or the tea party or president obama. ask the supreme court deciders roberts and kennedy, because when you want to know what the lauf of the land is it's roberts and kennedy. they know because these two people are the pair who will decide the issues. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> some of those protesters -- >> the justice of report on ferguson is out. >> it's time for ferguson's leaders to take immediate, wholesale, constructual action. >> inside the federal government's jaw-dropping finding of systematic discrimination in an american city. then it's like 1998 all over again. the latest on the clinton e-mail mess. plus it's like 2000 all over again. >> it does appear to be a 5-4 opinion. >> why today's supreme court obamacare arguments could be the
most important since bush v. gore. and it's like 2003 all over again. >> the security of the world requires disarming saddam hussein. >> why americans are increasingly viing for another war in iraq. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. we begin with breaking news out of missouri tonight. the city of ferguson fired one person in authority and put two others on leave after a scathing new report from the department of justice turned up racist e-mails. >> today's report allows the city of ferguson to identify the problems, not only in our police department, but in the entire region. >> that report was one of two released this morning by the justice department. one document looked at the shooting death of michael brown in which the doj decided not to charge darren wilson with violating the civil rights of 18-year-old michael brown. wilson shot and killed brown who
was unarmed back on august 9th of last year. that report said quote, although no eyewitnesses corroborate brown's attempt to gain control of the gun, there is no credible evidence to disprove wilson's account of what occurred inside the suv. and there is no evidence upon which prosecutors can rely to disprove wilson's stated subjective belief that he feared for his safety. although wilson was not charged, a second doj report on the ferguson police department was scathing. and led to an incredible scene in washington, d.c. today, as the first black u.s. attorney general in the history of the nation came before a microphone and described a police department that has been running for years essentially an unconstitutional racket on the black residents of ferguson, missouri. a racket to extract revenue, to harass them and intimidate them and in many cases ruin their lives. >> this investigation found a community that was deeply polarized.
a community where deep distrust and hostility often characterized interactions between police and area residents. a community where local authorities consistently approached law enforcement, not as a means for protecting public safety, but as a way to generate revenue. >> this emphasis on extracting revenue through policing sometimes led to multiple arrests, even jail time. >> in 2007 one woman received two parking tickets that together totaled $152. to date she's paid $550 in fines, and fees to the city of ferguson. she has been arrested twice for having unpaid tickets. and she has spent six days in jail. yet today, she's still inexplicably owing ferguson $541. and her story is only one of dozens of similar accounts that our investigation uncovered.
>> the full 105-page doj investigation also said that violating residents' constitutional rights has become somewhat routine. in 2012 a 32 african-american man sat in his car cooling off after playing basketball in a ferguson public park. an officer pulled up behind the man's car, blocking him in and demanded the man's social security number and identification. holder told this story today as the ferguson police violating the constitution and the dignity of the people they are supposed to protect. >> the officer accused the man of being a pedophile. he prohibited the man from using his cell phone and told him to get out of the car for a pat-down search, even though he had no reason to suspect the man was armed. and when the man objected citing his constitutional rights, the police officer drew his service weapon, pointed it at the man's head and arrested him on eight different counts.
now, this arrest caused the man to lose his job. >> eric holder gave voice with a full authority of the government and the resources of the state to the complaint i heard time and time again, day after day, from nearly every single black person i talked to during my time in ferguson. do you feel like you all have a story about an interaction with a cop that made you want to come out here tonight? you all feel that way? and how routine is that? >> a firefighter in our school allowed us to stand on his drug. a police officer walked up and yelled at us to get off of the truck. >> the police force, there are three african-americans and 50 caucasian americans. we can't have a situation like that. the amount of citations, and stops. >> it got to a point when i was down there last year as a white guy coming from new york that i thought maybe i was starting to lose my mind. that i was losing my hold on reality. could it actually be as bad as it was being described. the answer is yes.
yes, it is. this is the reality. the reality of the justice department investigators, ent countering it over and over again. reinforcing what the black residents had been saying all along. >> of course violence is never justified. but seen in this context, amid a highly toxic environment, defined by mistrust and resentment stoked by years of bad feelings and spurred by illegal and misguided practices, it's not difficult to imagine how a single tragic incident set off the city of ferguson like a powder keg. >> joining me now, national reporter for msnbc. this is quite a document. >> to say this report is blistering would be faint. spending time on the ground there in ferguson talking to folks, they have all these stories about how bad it is. this actually illustrates it's
actually worse than almost you could actually understand. >> it's like the most radical voices in the street being like, this is a -- you cannot imagine what's happening down here. now the department of justice, with their crest and seal on the front, 105 pages, we looked into it, and yes. >> even the summary release yesterday, we saw the percentage of folks stopped, 67% of the city, and so on. when you see the anecdotes of the man who was playing basketball he ended up with a gun to his head gets arrested loses his job, a woman who had been arrested and spent six days in jail a normal person this is every day. purely being african-american puts you in danger. >> that guy that told the story, the most infuriating detail is the guy is cooling off, and was cited for 11 violations one being that he gave false information, because he said mike, instead of michael.
>> the guy tried to express his constitutional rights, that's when the gun is pointed at his head. to actually have the attorney general of the united states laying it out, it was scathing. i said earlier it was like if there was ever a come to jesus moment for any law enforcement agency in the country, it's this one. as protesters said and folks i talked to this afternoon said the problem is you walk three blocks north you're in another municipality that looks and behaves just like ferguson. go to the south and the same thing. >> one more item on this report i want to take a second with. the use of dogs. there's an obvious resonance here. it appears to have been exclusively reserved for african-americans in every case in which ferguson police records the people bit by a police dog, that person was african-american. >> made worse not only by the history, but the manner in which they seem to be approaching and targeting african-americans from this report. we're seeing this
indiscriminate, by simply your manner of walking. >> the 85% of all -- 67% of the residents are african-american. 90% of all citations, 93% of all arrests. in the court system this is the thing that the court system just sits there to process people watch them miss court dates and have the money pile up so they are in reverse arrears. >> right. >> to the municipality. >> they're all complicit in that they were actually using the arrests and fines of the african-americans to buoy the revenue of the municipality. black folks were 68% likely to have their charges dismissed. so meanwhile in the same report the police are doing whatever they can to pull the strings for their own friends and family. >> that's another part of that right? >> exactly. >> favor trading, making sure people got favorable treatment if they knew the right people. >> that's right. >> you also have -- okay. so this comes out. you get mayor james nelson and he says we're going to -- he
refers to the four racist e-mails that were found. incredibly disgusting e-mails. one person's fired, two on administrative leave. we hired a few black people, we're going to do diversity training. not a word about whether they're going to cooperate with what the department of justice has in store for them. what was your reaction? >> i'm waiting for him to stand up and say we have to change everything we've been doing. >> top to bottom. >> there are real problems here. but instead, it was so vague. he said we hired a few corrections officers. she was african-american. we hired two court reporters, whoever they are. there's this program, that program. >> you look at this report and say, we have hired two black court reporters. >> that's it. no questions. we didn't hear from chief tom jackson. of course, do you want to put him up there and have darts thrown at him, but still, the
chief of police is going to say, i stand by my guys? >> an election comes up april 7th. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> joining me now, former deputy assistant attorney general and acting assistant attorney general for the civil rights division at the department of justice, william yeoman. you worked in the division that wrote this report. and i'm curious as someone who was there for, what 20 25 years, something like that your reaction in terms of where it stacks up. it read to me incredibly forceful. i'm curious to hear your response. >> chris, i think it's a stunning report. it's breathtaking. the detail that is contained in those 100 pages, it's just -- it's a blueprint for bad policing racially biased policing, for a police department that has completely lost its sense of mission. and as you pointed out, became more of a revenue raising institution than an institution designed to protect the public
safety. so the department i think, here now has its work cut out for it in ensuring that ferguson implements the 26 recommendations that are contained in the report. and they are recommendations that cut to the core of the ferguson police department. if they are implemented. and i think many of them will be implemented, they will completely restructure the department, change the culture of the department and focus much more on community policing and far less on raising revenue. >> let me ask you about the other part of the news today, which is the department of justice sort of officially clearing darren wilson on federal civil rights charges. we said in the beginning that it's going to be a hard case to make. that said, i mean the feds did come in in the wake of rodney king and the acquittal of those officers and they did successfully get federal charges, i believe convictions, against those police officers, on violating federal civil rights. what is your reaction to that decision based on what you know based on reading the report from
the doj? >> well i think those of us who are experienced prosecutors in this area have known from the start this would be a very difficult case in which to bring federal charges. you know in rodney king one of the big differences was that there was a videotape that actually showed the violence that actually showed the police officers hitting and kicking and beating rodney king with batons. in this case we didn't have that. and the facts were very much more in dispute. but it's also i think, the case that it is much more likely that there will be charges in the beating case than in a shooting case. police shootings very rarely end up in prosecutions. but i think the overall point that needs to be made is the federal standard is extremely difficult. and i think we've heard a lot about that while this investigation has been pending. but when people look for the various institutional reasons why there isn't a prosecution here they really shouldn't look
much farther than the legal standard. >> so we've talked about the particularities of ferguson. as someone who worked in the department, and a department that does this reliably we saw the report from cleveland, the practices of local police departments, i guess my question to you is if you threw a dart at the municipality police departments across this country, what would you find? >> well i think you would find a lot of disparity. so unfortunately, i think there are a number of other police departments out there, like ferguson, that are really rife for intervention. of course the department of justice has limited resources. there's something like 18,000 police departments in the country. so it is not going to get to all of them. but i think it's extremely important to do high-profile cases like ferguson and use the lerchl
leverage to try to spread the good practices to other jurisdictions. but i think it's important for the department of justice to put more resources into this area and to come up with a targeted enforcement program that will identify jurisdictions that are likely to have problems. >> thank you very much. really appreciate it. >> my pleasure. all right. how is today's king versus burwell, the obamacare case before the supreme court. we'll tell you ahead. [ hoof beats ] i wish... please, please, please, please, please. [ male announcer ] the wish we wish above all...is health. so we quit selling cigarettes in our cvs pharmacies. expanded minuteclinic for walk-in medical care. and created programs that encourage people to take their medications regularly. introducing cvs health. a new purpose. a new promise... to help all those wishes come true. cvs health.
a terrifying scene in seoul today. according to south korea police and media, lipert was wounded by a man with a knife who was screaming, north and south korea should be reunified. he is known and has a record in 2010, he threw a stone at the japanese ambassador. ambassador lippert's injuries are not life-threatening.
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brighter denture every day. all right. so today was argument today at the supreme court which is always a big day. it was a very big argument on obamacare, and to me the details of it which we're going to get to in a little bit are less important than what this means for the court. this is i think, the biggest test of the court's integrity since another big court case bush v. gore back in 2000. you'll recall, of course as the nation watched, wanting to know what the recount would be in florida.
the court stepped in in 2000 and they basically, well they awarded the presidency to george w. bush. and they did it by the slimmest of margins, 5-4, with the five conservative justices basically stopping a recount and declaring george w. bush president of the united states. the reason that that decision was so frustrating, and the reason it hurt the court's credibility and was so damaging is that the rationale those conservative justices used to do that was manifestly in opposition to things they've been saying their entire career. and they even put something in the opinion that was a kind of white flag, where they said basically we're hacked. they said our consideration is limited to the present circumstances for the problem of equal protection and generally presents many complexities. what that means in plain english is, we are ruling this way on this case so george w. bush can be president, but please never cite our logic here again, because we don't agree with our own logic. now, king versus burwell before
the supreme court, challenge to the obamacare law, the second biggest one, on whether states can pay subsidies to people on the exchanges if they did not make their own exchanges themselves. now, here's the thing, like bush v. gore if the conservative justices on the court follow their own logic, the things they've been saying forever, this never should have come within 100 miles of the supreme court. this entire case was reverse engineered by people who hate the law in an act of tremendous and historical bad faith to destroy it over a slightly ambiguous provision of the statute. and yet here we are in front of the court. and so the question is does the court basically say, yes, we hate obamacare, and we're going to knock it down or gut it because we don't like it or do they stick to the law. i mean this piece was written. basically saying to reject the government's defense of the law,
the justices would have to suspend their own settled approach to statutory interpretation as well as how congress should act towards the states. in other words, they would have to pull another bush v. gore. they would have to take their previous rationale and throw it out the window and say we hate obamacare and you're going to have to deal with it. based on oral arguments today, what are they going to do. nina is here she was there. you're smiling. >> i have a connection with everything you just said. >> that was a slightly more partisan and ideological take on this. i am curious your sense today in that room where the justices were on this case. >> well you really couldn't tell in some ways because we had four of the more liberal
members of the court who clearly were saying, congress wrote a law that was quite deliberate in its purpose, and you cherry-picked out a few words, challengers, that do not represent what the law says. those are four votes for the obama administration's interpretation of the law. then there were two conservative justices, scalia and alito, who pretty clearly agreed with the challengers. and i think we can probably assume justice thomas who didn't say anything, will agree with them. then the chief justice said barely anything. and justice kennedy was left to sort of indicate that he has -- he's more inclined perhaps to side with the administration's viewpoint than the challenger's viewpoint
viewpoint, and i'll explain in a minute, but it was a sort of hamlet-like performance. and so i always say that you're a fool to make a prediction in most of these cases. especially a big case like this. and everybody who made a prediction that obamacare would be struck down as unconstitutional lived to rue the day. and i'm not about to make a prediction the other way just because there were a few tee leaves that say obamacare might prevail. >> a lot of people thought there's no way this thing's getting upheld. of course, it was upheld. roberts voting to uphold it in a way that sbrizurprised a lot of people. but here's my question to you. how much do you think, as someone who's covered the court for a long time knows the court as well as anybody else how much do the reputation of the players work on the justices? they say their empire is just the law. they are political actors. they understand where they stand
in relation to things that they create some huge you know nets for 9 million people, like that's going to be a problem. how much does that weigh on them? >> well, i think the chief justice and a number of other members of the court have been very strong desire to protect the court as an institution, and to protect its capitol. and if you go completely off the reservation, you do not protect its capitol. and, therefore i think the chief justice, because he's chief, has to consider that even more than other people. but that's sort of his personal inclination anyway. and what is really interesting in some ways is you look at this, is that justice scalia who is an amazing legal mind and wrote a brief this thick, all
briefs cited his brief from that tome, and what that tome says is you don't look at just a few words out of context, you look at the overall purpose of the act. and the sense i got today was that the solicitor general representing the obama administration was pretty forceful in making the case that the overall purpose of the act was to say to the states look you can make these exchanges if you want and if you don't want to, we'll do it instead. >> right. and a lot of people quoting scalia today. nina, thank you very much. >> thank you. there's a new metric for deciding who among the possible republican 2016 contenders is the strongest on foreign relations and that is how hard they clap.
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that was senator rand paul applauding as israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu wrapped up his speech to congress yesterday. according to some in the right-wing media, senator paul was not clapping hard enough. unenthused rand paul applausing netanyahu's speech. which made a handy gift of the moment. jennifer rubin famous for boosting mitt romney and her well documented dislike of rand paul seized on the report reporting, oops almost like he's faking his support for israel for now. and fox asked senator paul himself about it. >> we have some of your reaction during the speech. you look less than thrilled hearing the speech. what were you thinking? >> you know, what's funny about it is you have these gossipy websites by demeaning themselves
by putting it out. i co-sponsored bringing him here. on the day i also decided to co-sponsor the corker deal that says any deal has to be approved, we have the gossipy websites looking at the metric of how fast you clap. i think they demean themselves by putting that out. >> it's coming to this america, foreign policy politics in the republican primary are coming down to whether a potential candidate claps enthusiastically enough when applauding a foreign leader. if that's the case perhaps next time senator paul should take a cue on enthusiasm from his dad. help promote heart health. experience the meta effect with our multi-health wellness line. ♪ ♪ shopping online is as easy as it gets. ♪ wouldn't it be great if hiring plumbers carpenters and even piano tuners were just as simple? thanks to angie's list, now it is. we've made hiring anyone from a handyman to a dog walker as simple as a few clicks.
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personal e-mail account to conduct government business as secretary of state. clinton did not take steps to have her official e-mails preserved in realtime by the state department in an apparent violation of regulations that have been in place since 2009. while she turned 55,000 pages of e-mails over to the state department two months ago, it was left up to clinton's advisers which of those e-mails to release and which to hold back raising significant transparency concerns. we learned from the a.p. today that clinton was running her own e-mail server registered under her home address in newark which may not have been secure from hackers, and that despite her spokesman's statement that clinton had, quote, every expectation that her e-mails would be retained because she was e-mailing state department employees on their department account, at least one top aide appears to have used the same @clinton address that she set up for herself. hillary clinton was also not alone in using personal e-mail for government business.
jeb bush who she could face in the general election next year used his personal e-mail as governor. republican representative jason chaffitz is planning to investigate clinton's use as an official house business card that lists a gmail address. we blacked it out, which is nice of us. that brings us to another development of the other story you always have to discuss whenever the latest clinton scandal comes along. for more than two decades, nearly uninterrupted, bill and hillary clinton have been, quote unquote, at the center of scandal. some of those have raised real and significant questions, some were clearly drummed up and ridiculous. but all a river of scandal that runs off into tributaries only to return back to the mighty main river. case in point, benghazi who lawmakers have tried to use to destroy hillary clinton, flat-out refuteing the most damaging allegations.
no matter how often those claims were debunked gop kept digging. today latest house committee investigating benghazi, trey gaudy, submitted subpoenas for e-mails to find a scandal that will stick. that gets to the fundamental dynamics. you have on one side the clintons and their team who are justifiably paranoid that people are out to get them and who as a result can act in ways that appear shady and not transparent. and the ones going after them pointed at behavior as evidence that the clintons are just as guilty as they always thought. joining me now, senior political writer, and jonathan allen at "bloomberg news." jonathan, i'll start with you. so okay. why do they do this? you wrote about hillary clinton's time at state. did you know about this? was this commonly known? and why do you think they did it? >> i don't think it was commonly
known that she didn't have a state department e-mail address. i think it's commonly known, fairly commonly known she e-mails a wide range of people about a wide range of subjects many of which wouldn't be considered government business so it's not surprising she has a personal account. to your point in your opening there, chris, just because they're paranoid doesn't mean people don't have to get them. i think that's what you're seeing here. it's hard to know the chicken or the egg, which made what happen first, but clearly there was an effort to evade at least the spirit of the open records laws and rules. this is a situation where hillary clinton didn't want her e-mails to be available to anybody else without her permission. and also wanted to be able to take her documents with her from the state department. you know most former state department aides, you ask them for their e-mails with hillary clinton, and they say i can't give them to you, because i no longer have access to my state department e-mail. but she with her private server has the documents. the result of this we're going to see a big tussle over whether
she has to turn those over to congress. >> we got the trey gowdy subpoenas today. if i was trey gowdy, this is way off. of course, you do it. are we now at the moment everybody remember kenneth starr didn't start off with monica lewinsky, it started about, i guess it started off with whitewater, paula jones, then like the river ran through a bunch of different things. this to me feels like we're now at the point where the benghazi committee becomes the e-mail committee. >> like you said i think this is the obvious starting point for republicans. we know that for the next year and a half these e-mails will be central to how republicans talk about hillary clinton, and her tenure at the state department. the obvious starting department is the benghazi committee that's looking for pieces of evidence that support their view of how this was scandalous. so let's do this, let's do the subpoena. the question now is going to be
yeah, who knows what the benghazi committee specifically will focus on going forward. but certainly i don't think we'll hear republicans over the next year and a half keep beating the drum on benghazi. they'll be talking about the e-mails. and anytime a new allegation comes up with hillary clinton, how she handled one thing or another, the question is always going to be -- who knows in the e-mails that we never got. it could support our entire theory of the case. >> talk to me jonathan about the sociology of the people in clinton world. this to me is such a perfect example of a group of people who were born into crisis, and basically lived in the bunker. they're all just used to being in the bunker. like people are trying to destroy us and we must act as if people are trying to destroy us or they will succeed in destroying us. >> never give an inch chris. these people were born into that culture, the folks around the clintons, most of the older generation of clinton aides has moved on. some of them are still around,
but the next generation just grows up in it. look they're absolutely secretive. they absolutely want to fight over everything. and they want to sort of muck every issue up. and so you know that's what we're going to see. >> braines is a famous person in that world, extremely smart, charismatic guy, working with the clintons for a long time. he's sort of hillary's press person. he today, an amazing thing happened in which this story is going on and he just picks a fight with like nine different reporters. you're seeing more and more of them on the record. >> including my editor in chief. >> including your editor in chief. and he had to retract. which was just a little bit of a window into this. he basically makes a factual case. his point was, if you think we set this up to avoid requests you're absolutely out of your mind. that's crazy. we would, of course never do that.
he actually is persuasive i think, certainly in that thread. but in the substance, it's the idea of the shear kind of like brawling bravado of this exchange is a remarkable thing. >> ben forwarded me that e-mail exchange before it went public but as it was happening. i was thinking, it is amazing that philippe and in general the clinton circle feel when they're under siege in a moment like this where they clearly -- there are serious allegations being brought and they know this is serious -- that thir reaction is let's start a huge brawl with tons of different reporters, and just like blow up the blogosphere and twittersphere with this. it's savvy, right? if you turn everything into a huge fight people have to pick sides, right? >> the other thing, john i said earlier in the green room i feel like anything to do with the clintons is like the visual effect, you can see the old
woman or young woman depending how you squint your eyes. i genuinely often -- like in this case there's part of me that thinks there's a real transparency issue, and another thing that is it basically like this year's version of cattle futures? remember cattle futures? the hair cut? i can site here for an hour and -- i was doing this in the meeting, and our staff had no idea what the heck i was talking about. that's the thing is like it's very hard with the clintons to have any sense of proportion between the trivial and actually important. >> like trying to stick an arm or leg off the bed to try to balance yourself. i haven't experienced that ever. >> yeah, yeah. >> but as far as philippe being savvy, i think what he did today is incredibly savvy. we're spending a fair amount of time talking about philippe and not hillary clinton. so he throws himself on a grenade. you would say there's nothing to the madness, because clearly the
e-mail exchanges are fairly odd. in addition to that you have all these reporters either on the e-mail exchanges with him or watching this play out on blogs and, you know and on the internet and not actually doing the job of investigating the e-mails. >> here's what i want to know why did you set up the whole system? that's the thing, right? what's the motivation? that's what we need to hear. >> the fact that they haven't answered that question, i assume there are probably legal issues that they have to work on. >> thanks to you both.
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push that button and your facebook feed will spring to life with everything you love about the show with yours truly every single week. go ahead. push the button. do it now. thank you. delivered it to that truck. here in san diego, we're building the first one ever to run on natural gas. ships this big running this clean will be much better for the environment. we're proud to be a part of that. do you have something for pain? i have bayer aspirin. i'm not having a heart attack, it's my back. i mean bayer back & body. it works great for pain. bayer back & body provides effective relief for your tough pain. better? yeah...thanks for the tip! these are our cats, wolf and bear. the cat hair is so constant, it's like it's growing out of the floor. it drives me crazy. can we do something about this? (doorbell)
all right. i don't even really know who is left. we're going to find out. >> neither do i at this point. >> heads or tails? >> tails. >> here we go. michael steele. martin o'malley! >> the former governor of maryland which officially makes him a washington outsider. the inspiration for the character tom carkedy on the wire. it's martin o'malley. >> hometown boy. you know him.
>> yes, i do. >> governor of the state that he was the governor of. that's nice. >> i am left speechless. >> it's time for yet another update if you're in the fantasy 2016 trap. martin o'malley said this yesterday. >> i'm seriously considering running in 2016. >> no points for anyone yet. but things are getting hot. the latest developments and we'll see how our players fare with the draft pick as the 2016 race heats up for now. check in on everybody's scoring system, where? at our facebook page face.com/all in with chris.
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on the largest most reliable network. today a stunning new poll shows a result of more than six months of beating the drums for war against isis. a testament to the effectiveness of isis' own brutality and its slick propaganda machine. the endless loop playing on tv screens across the country. increasing calls from politicians and commentators for a full-on reinvasion of iraq and even syria to vanquish the militant group. >> we're going to have to put boots on the ground my friend and we're going to have to do a lot more things than we're doing now. >> you're going to need boots on the ground not only in iraq but syria. >> tell the political left we want our military leaders to do whatever it takes. >> the president should have the
authority, he does have the authority to use all the force he wants. >> a poll shows that 62% of americans now support sending ground troops to fight isis in iraq and syria. the majority of both men and women. and that is a massive jump from a poll in november. when just 37% favored sending in ground troops. from 37% to 62% in just over three months. think about that. there's evidence that the kind of images we see on tv and online may have a lot to do with it. 2006 review showed two groups of people the same tv news item about terrorism, one with neutral visual and the other with visuals of the burning of the towers on 9/11. they were more likely than those who watched with nonvisual imagery to support military solutions to international problems. this is something we grapple with right here on this show every day.
in fact, we had a conversation about it earlier today before this segment. we have to show you something. but where is the line between showing you the story and straight-up fearmongering? there seems right now to be a palpable turn to darkness and fear in the political psyche by a steady diet of rhetoric about nazi level threats. whether from the murderers of isis beheading americans or from the evil regime in iran calling for death for america, and the annihilation of israel. >> iran and isis are competing for the crown of militant islam. one calls itself the islamic republic republic, the other calls itself the islamic state. both want to impose a militant islamic empire first in the region and then on the entire world. they just disagree among themselves who will be the ruler of that empire. so when it comes to iran and isis, the enemy of your enemy is
your enemy. >> if all this feels uncomfortably similar to the run-up to the last war in iraq it's because we're hearing from many of the same voices who sounded the alarm last time. >> if you take out saddam's regime, i guarantee you, that it will have enormous positive reverb rations on the region. i think people sitting right next door in iran young people and many others will say the time of such regimes of despots is gone. >> joining me now, someone who learned lesson from the last time in iraq. colonel, does it feel to you the way it does to me that we are entering as a nation as a sort of polity of psychological place uncomfortably similar to what led to the first iraq war, second iraq war? >> yes, it does chris. and i want to say that if the polls show 62% of americans want to use ground forces in syria or
iraq or whatever, then i suggest we have a draft and draft the 62% to lead the way. >> i absolutely agree with you that part of that 62% is borne of the fact that a smaller and smaller percentage of americans bear a greater and greater share of the actual fighting. >> absolutely the case. and we're seeing what that's doing to that smaller percentage, and the fact that we have such a high suicide rate, and post-traumatic stress rate and so forth and so on. if we want to succumb to these fears, and i agree with the way you characterized it it is a state of fear that we've created for ourselves, and i must say the media has exacerbated majorly, if we want to deal with that in the way that that 62% wants to deal with it then let's have the draft back. >> the other thing that is striking to me is i thought we learned back as we watched iraq develop, and even afghanistan,
right, which was a far more justified enterprise in certain ways than iraq to ask the question of what happens when we win, what happens afterwards what happens the next day. yet here we are back talking about vanquishing isis with it seems to me no one asking that question. >> i agree with you. let's look at mr. putin for a moment, to change the subject, but not to change the subject. mr. putin went to school on the russian experience in afghanistan. he went to school on the russian experience in chechnya. and he watched very closely the experience in iraq and afghanistan, and look what he's doing, he's taking up guerrilla warfare in ukraine. that's the kind of warfare that wins. that's the kind of warfare that putin's now taking up. we do not need to get into this as a conventional force on the ground in a region where we've already been handed really handed our rear ends. we don't need anymore. >> colonel lawrence wilkerson, we don't need anymore, a good a
summation as anything. thank you very much. i always appreciate it. >> thanks for having me chris. "the rachel maddow show" starts now. >> chris, you know that's my focus in life is what you're just talking about there. that was a really important segment. >> answering that poll is cheap, right? it's what comes after it that costs. >> just the -- but to see the change over time and to connect it to what's really going on it affects the way people think about these things. it is not abstract stuff. it's concrete and really important. you just did a great job with that. >> thank you. >> thank you for staying with us for the next hour. all right. this is also a little bit about the media. as a person who works in cable news, i have to tell you this is a little awkward to acknowledge, but it is true and sometimes it ends up being important. that sometimes cable news really does go a bit wobbly. we lose our way a little bit. we fail on what we are supposed to do.