tv Up W Steve Kornacki MSNBC April 4, 2015 5:00am-7:01am PDT
borderless and secure. hp helps businesses move on all the possibilities of today. and stay ready for everything that is still to come. . making a deal with iran. good morning. thanks for getting up with us this first saturday in april of 2015. be beginning to feel like spring here in new york. hope it is where you are too. got a lot in the show this morning, including the iran deal and also the hard sell. the obama administration got iran to agree to a potentially historic framework to reduce its nuclear
capability. now the white house has to deal with congress where republicans and democrats are raising plenty of questions. a lot more of that. also this morning, the bigger culture war problem exposed in indiana. how do you reconcile the rights of those who believe in same sex marriage with the rights who believe they shouldn't have to make the cake for the wedding. ahead there is also word this morning of a brand new demographic who is flocking to hillary clinton. also today, kicks off the final four weekend for the men's and women's college basketball tournaments. is the secret to being the best of the best in that sport giving up your cell phone? we'll be looking into that question ahead. we'll be taking a closer look at the bob menendez indict the new jersey democrat is beat the wrap. all this plus the segment i have gone looking forward to all week. chris christie like you've never
seen him before. cooking up a storm in the kitchen, eating his favorite italian food sipping wine and talking politics. we'll have the first clip from his appearance on the new show called pasta and politics. i am not making this up. trust me you are going to want to stick around and see these clips. we begin this morning with the deal with iran. the tentative deal struck on wednesday. deal that president obama is now fighting furiously to keep congress from undermining. it saframework for a final agreement that would aim to reduce iran's nuclear capacity. it is being called by many surprisingly specific. the major points that iran has now agreed to include, cutting by two thirds the number of centrifuges it has enriching uranium. that's a key ingreedant for a bomb. slashing its stockpile of
enriched uranium. dismantling the core of a key reactor that could be used to produce plutoneument. >> it would get the end of sanctions that have wrecked havoc on their economy. iran has proven it can't be trusted in the past. it let's iran buy time to return to a path to a bomb. many questions about this but two that stand out. is it a good deal or not? two, is it a deal that congress is going to allow or undermine? we're going to dive straight into both questions in just a minute. first, we go to tehran where president obama's announcement of the deal was actually broadcast live on state television. that's an unprecedented appearance by the president of the united states in the living rooms of every day iranians. many of whom marked the moment by taking selfies with their
televisions. is iran's loourpeadership on board? we've been getting mixed reaction in the united states. how serious about how commitmented to this deal are they there? >> well, on the surface, they're committed. they have agreed to the joint plan of action. al when the president made his speech here he billed it as a victory for the iranian people. he said we'll get rid of the shackles of sanctions, the economy will be lifted and we've kept our nuclear program in tact. the foreign minister was greeted as if he were a rock star. to give even more weight to this deal, he signed off by the supreme leader the buck stopped with him and no deal would have happened unless he gave his blessing. he hasn't come out openly to
speak about it here on friday you have a very important thing is friday prayers here. -- they're relaying his message to the people to go to friday prayers. and all of the leaders of the sermons of friday prayers, billed this as a success. they said this was a good deal and it was good for the country. so indirectly, they were speaking his words so -- but having said that there is criticism already from conservatives here. the very powerful head of the conservative newspaper here the editor of the newspaper who is also an advisor to the supreme leader said this is a good deal for the west but a bad deal for iran. we gave up a fully to go race horse for a broken bridle. another head liner here said
reactors are only good for making -- >> having some technical difficulties there, unfortunately. that transmission from tehran. he is the bureau chief over there. getting afrom him a little bit of backlash. he is reporting from some hard liners over there lflt. we want to turn to the more basic question we raised at the top, is this a good deal? >> it is a good deal. a deal that meets our core objectives. this framework would cut off every pathway that iran could take to develop a nuclear weapon. iran will face strict limitations on its program. iran has also agreed to the most robust and intrusive inspections ever negotiated for any nuclear program in history. >> many republicans in congress and some democrats, though are
not convinced. as for international reaction to the deal thus far, it's been largely positive. although not from the prime minister of israel. >> such a deal does not block iran's path to the bomb. such a deal paved iran's path to the bomb. and it might very well spark a nuclear arms race throughout the middle east. it would greatly increase the risks of terrible war. >> so is this a good deal? joining me to discuss right now. is roger corinne a former foreign correspondent. and david frum a former speech writer for george w. bush. is this a good deal? >> yeah, hi. i think it's a very good deal. diplomacy deals with the real world. the toughest diplomacy, deals with enemies. and in an ideal world would iran
have no nuclear knowledge, yes u but it does. you can't bomb knowledge out of existence. what does this deal do? it cuts offer iran's path to a bomb for at least a decade and probably beyond that. you've seen how it cuts slashes the number of centrifuges, slashes the amount of enriched uranium iran has been able to amass. strictly limits its research. i don't think in the circumstances there was really a better deal to be had. i think it's very significant you saw those young iranians taking selfies with president obama as a backdrop. this is a pro western society under an antiwestern regime. this agreement condemns condemns the united states and iran to have a relationship. over the next decade 15 years, at least, and this i think, will gradually bring the
world -- the only top 20 economy in the world that is not integrated to the global economy into the world. that proamerican sentiment you found in those images will be allowed to be expression. i believe iran a youthful society to be fundamentally a hopeful society despite the oppressive theocracy that rules there. >> when you look at the framework as it was being -- goals for the framework as they were being described by iran's chief negotiator last summer is what's in this agreement, it would appear since last summer to today iran has given more ground and concessions. were you surprised, maybe pleasantly by some of the terms of this deal? >> the deal allows international inspectors to go anywhere in the iranian nuclear industry. it doesn't allow them to go at any time. there are not surprise
inspections under the deal. when inspectors say we want to take a look at this, iranians are able to be say, it's messy, give us six weeks to tidy up. the most davis thing to me about this deal t established a relationship between america and the iran. we're they will push and the limits of this agreement. the inspectors are from the international community. sometimes that community is robust as it is now. sometimes it was not so robust. we are going to have an endless series of points of friction conflict with the iranians. testing, the united states saying, you can't do that. the united nations maybe agreeing with the united states or maybe not. it's a pathway to institution
institutionalized conflict. >> what thing we can say for sure, if you look at the bigger picture here, there is a history of iranian duplicity. since these negotiations began, there's been an interim agreement in place iran has lived up to. given the other alternatives out there, isn't it worth going down this road and seeing if they continue to hold up the agreement? >> i'm not against diplomacy. but surprise inspections are the indispensable ingreedant to making a regime like this work. the inspectors have to be able to go somewhere on five minutes' notice, not six weeks. the united states did not get that. this goes to the way the obama administration approached the whole transaction. that when you negotiate there are a lot of different approaches. al the key idea was there was a lack of confidence between iran and the united states. it tried to do confidence building measures. when it detected snekts where the iranians were cheating they would come up with the most
benign possible explanation for it. they chose not to negotiate with the threat of intensified sanctions. the key component, surprise inspections they didn't get. >> that issue david is raising about not having surprise inspections here how big do you think that is? >> i don't think it's huge steve. i think it's significant. is it a perfect deal? no. no perfect deal was possible. but i think iran has given up a lot. and david just spoke about institutionalized conflict. i'd much rather have institutionalized conflict than conflict without any framework. the middle east is in huge disaway. i'm not announcing anything in saying that. and iran is a major player. the islamic republic like it or
not, has been around for 35 plus years now. it has survived through prudence. and iran and all the upheaval of recent years -- i witnessed the terrible oppression after the 2009 election. it has been a relative area of stability. and if you look at iraq afghanistan, if you look at all the problems of the middle east if you have some kind of institutionalized framework within which the united states and iran can for the first time in 35 years speak to each other, i mean, nick burns, who was number three at the state department who is now at harvard, he was in charge of the iran dossier not so long ago for three years. never spoke to an iranian official. that's a reminder of how far we've come. i think a u.s. iran communication of some kind -- we're in conflict about a lot of things about attitudes towards israel. the heinous things that iran
says from time to time about israel. i'm happy to see that in a framework. i'm happy to see the end of the freeze in u.s. iranian relations over more than three decades. >> thanks to you both joining us. more on this potentially historic arms agreement ahead and why it's not just republicans that the president has to worry about as he tries to sell this deal to congress. stay with us. minnesota winters are brutal it's tough being cooped up it gets a little stale. when dad opens up the window what's the first thing he does? the tobin stance spring is in the air and pollen, dog hair... the sunshine looks like fairy dust. (doorbell) whoa! what's this? swiffer sweeper! swiffer dusters! removes up to 70% of dust and allergens. stays on there like glue wow! look at that! ew! the tobin stance! that is totally what it is!
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collapse. and the path to conflict will widen. >> that was president obama on thursday warning congress not to derail the tentative nuclear deal with iran. many republicans in congress were unmoved. >> there is no deal or framework with iran. there is only a list of very dangerous united states exceptions that is going to put iran on the path to a nuclear weapon. >> republican senator of illinois likening the deal to the appeasement of the nazis. this is not just about republicans trying to torpedo that would be a signature achievement for obama. it's also his own party. >> it's certainly a mixed bag of tricks. we're going to have to assess it in these next few months while the bill and the details that are being hammered out. >> democratic congressman ted deutsch from florida greeting the deal with skepticism. the white house is not calling
this a formal treaty. that means it doesn't need formal approval from congress. many in congress are trying to change that with a bill that would essentially give them an up or down vote on the deal with iran. that bill as of yesterday afternoon, now only one vote away from a veto proof majority in the senate. all of this leads to the question, will congress kill the deal with iran? joining us to talk about it we have our panel for this morning. a former republican congresswomen from jork a managing editor and a contributor to the root. and a contributor to the daily beast. thank you for being here. let me start with this in terms of a lot of objections or at least a lot of concerns being expressed by congress. again, the information we put up at the end there, one vote away in the senate. let me put up the public opinion on this. this was a washington post poll this week. before the the terms of the deal, the concept of the deal
had basically two to one support in the poll. 59%, 3 #1%. the country says we like the idea. you've been tlrkshere, what's your party going to do? >> we have to look at this deal and negotiations in terms of motivations, incentives and verification. and i think david frum made excellent points about the dubious nature of being able to trust iran in carrying out any terms of a deal if they won't agree to on the spot inspections. so politics aside, and it should not be a political issue at all h. we understand that politics are obviously going to play into it. but those who are skeptical about this deal and there are democrats as well as republicans, need to approach it from a standpoint of making sure that we are protecting america and its interests. i think the president does need to heed the opponents of this
deal and take them seriously. they need to act in a way that would be serious and not political. >> what does that mean? just really curious what it would mean to be serious and not political? it seems like they're being political. >> well, no. i think the objections that are being raised are reasonable objections. and reasonable appropriate criticisms. they shouldn't be catched in political terms. we don't have strong reason to support. >> we heard the same criticisms before the deal was made. >> and so the same people criticizing the deal before it was made are criticizing it now. you have the added complication of people coming occupy -- tim cain was having an argument with the president over the war powers act. it's likely that sort of the
thing from the democratic side will show up. from the republican side we heard the same people criticizing the president before anything happened. >> it seems there are two or three thing husband going on. somebody like tom cotton has a world view that is fundamentally at odds with the white house. just the concept of deal ing with iran that's not something -- >> he's not making specific objections so much as he's giving objections to the entire idea. >> he's not saying hey, i don't like this deal let's do something else. he's not saying that. >> anyone who makes a comparison to neville chamberlain is saying the reason that -- the reason it resonates it implies we should have gone after hitler earlier. >> now the -- president obama -- we should say president obama this week also invoked sort of the possibility of war, the possibility of conflict. he basically was putting it out
there look, we put our best foot forward in terms of trying to strike this deal. if this evaporates the alternative is war. >> for mark crook to say that -- he's a moderates. that's moda republican on moderation. he's got an election coming up that he's got to be careful. to say that before the ink is even dry is pretty amazing. from what is a not so tom cotton like republican. it's amazing. >> i wonder -- >> he would not get uniform support from republicans. nor should he have. we have to take -- we have to take a way. we have to think beyond the politics of this. >> again -- >> i -- >> there are legitimate objections to this deal. >> what does it mean? if congress steps in -- i had a
conflict as a democrat i do believe this president has done some executive overreach. the war powers act exists for a reason. what i find out is usually the war powers is invoked is going awful half cocked to get utinto the war. it looks like we're putting on the brakes. congress is saying no, we would like to have more power -- >> but one point that members of congress would make it's democrats have made the point. the sanctions that are at the heart of the negotiations the sanctions iranians want lifted those are sanctions that were put in place by congress. if the administration is going to be out here negotiating over the sanctions, shouldn't congress have a say about whether these sanctions that we put in place get lift. >> that's a new thing that's happened with this president. congress wants to get overly involved with things. he doesn't need the vote in congress is my understanding. there may not be a direct vote.
there will be a lot of talk and a lot of hearings and so on. when you hear people like ed royce already coming out and saying if there isn't on the spot inspections right here right now anytime any place. that's a bad sign from congress. so obviously, we're going to see a lot of interference. >> the politization has been from both sides of almost every issue. and the reality is that -- it is a salient fact. it is an unassailable truth that iran will not allow spot inspections, what are they trying to hide? if you have nothing to hide open it up. >> we go to war. >> no not at all. >> on their nuclear, you know projects -- >> yes without anything at all. >> under sanctions and without us doing anything at all -- >> that's right.
>> do you keep the fragile coalition of people who are putting pressure on iran together, which is what happens if you do this deal. it's not just the united states making this deal. right? we either made -- so the question is we can't keep that coalition together putting pressure on them indefinitely. some people are going to flake off. this is an attempt to say we're going to do moderate lifting of sanctions. i think this will be in shajtages. >> lifting sanctions is still years away. >> we will get some inspections and hopefully at least put the brakes on whatever nuclear project they have. >> we haven't put any significant brakes on them so far. >> we haven't had any power to. >> but this -- >> this gives them incentive to do something about it. if we hold out for pop inspections all the time they're going to say now and keep on -- >> give you the final word. >> instead what we have you know --
>> what should we do instead? >> go ahead. >> there's no question about it t that's not at issue, from either side of the aisle. what is at issue, is it worth endorsing a deal that will realistically only being a sham. >> if we don't endorse it what are we doing, we're going to war? >> we have to end this. the debate will continue here and probably in congress. this is something to watch over the next few months. still ahead, what is a state supposed to do when it runs out of water? california governor has plans. a new statue of lucille ball is frightening residents. we're going to show you that stay with us. ♪ i'm going my way... ♪ ♪i leave a story untold... ♪
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today's pam. they call this one catching um. i call it the index card segment. here's my first card. we are going to "the washington post" this morning. here's the headline. ted cruz takes 2016 campaign to the air with easter weekend tv buys. his first ad is entitled blessing. showing the video, not the actual sound. there is the ad he's already on the air. this comes on the backdrop there is a new poll. he was stuck in single digits. he announced his candidatancy suddenly he's at the top. >> i think people will be surprised by him. he's personable. i think he's like that on the trail as well. i think him and rand paul are going to surprise people. >> it's one of those you watch and work those rooms. with the base that he's going -- >> i was going to say, personable is one word and then personality. he has a lot of personality.
i would say is definitely true. i also think many republicans -- i think if i were a republican i'd be like okay someone is running. >> this tuesday, rand paul is going to announce marco rubio the week after that. it is beginning. >> there are a lot of passionate people who will be entering this race. >> there will be a lot of them. the hollywood reporter this morning. lucille ball fans lead crusade against frightening hometown statue. this is jamestown new york. they want to honor her, i think. this is the statue they came up with. that is one freaky statue. >> you can't control the lighting in the studio. >> i mean -- >> it looks like fonzie more than it looks like her. i feel like -- it just looks like a man, which is not necessarily a bad thing. just that's not her. >> you're seeing the fonz in
that? >> it looks like a bouffant. >> it will be around year after year, not a good idea. >> it makes you wonder what the statue budget is in jamestown, new york. >> i think they're getting voluntarily contributions. the mayor said we're not spending money, but if we get enough contributions we'll do it. >> this is from mother jones, ets for hillary. why ufo activists are excited about a clinton presidency. only registered ufo lobbyist he's hopeful for hillary clinton presidency because he believes she could give full dish closure about what the government knows about aliens. >> all those deleted e-mails, who knows. >> the reason -- i'm going to ad-lib. i think one of her top advisors
has publicly said he believes in ufo's. al padesta. i think that's the reason. >> to have hillary clinton and full disclosure is kind of ironic. >> they'll do anything to distract from the real story. >> ufos are coming. anyway, that is this hour's catching up. we'll do more headlines next hour. still ahead you haven't seen him like this before. chris christie look at this picture, he puts on an apron and gets cooking and talking. you have to see these clips. coming up in the middle of a historic drought, the california governor admits where he went wrong last year calling for water restrictions. >> i called for 20% voluntary and we'll get more line 9%. that's not enough. >> what jerry brown is doing now, how the entire country could be affected by what's happening in california. that is next.
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we're standing on dry grass and we should be standing in five feet of snow. that's the way it's been. we're in a historic drought. and that demands unprecedented action. for that reason i am issuing an executive order mandating substantial water reduction across our state. >> california governor jerry brown this week announcing a 25% mandatory reduction in water usage for california residents. this is an unprecedented step amid a four year drought. nbc's news miguel almanguer is reporting. >> we're in the middle of our rainy season. mountains should be lush with green. instead they're bone dry. tonight we are coming to you from a lake. we should be 30 feet underwater here, instead these are the conditions. this is why california is in a state of emergency.
>> now many not just in california, but nationally are alarmed with recent headlines trumpeting california has only a year of water left in his reservoirs. it would then have to start topping ground water. if you think this is just a california problem, the state grows nearly half of the fruits vegetables and nuts for the country. what's emerging is a crisis. we have a editor from "the new york times." i always feel bad for our west coast guests. thank you for doing it. the 25% reduction that the governor announced this week if this is successfully pulled off? does it solve the problem long term or is this the future? >> i think this is an initial step. the step does not address alt agricultural.
it's called the bread basket of america. the steps that the governor laid out it calls for recommendations. but it doesn't call for any water reductions. >> he didn't want -- that's a big industry in california. we could put some of this up. this is stats. the share of u.s. crops that are grown in california. 99% of walnuts. 97% of kiwis. 95% of celery. i hate it but a lot of people eat it. how are every day californiaens responding to this? >> as we see in polling, they are increasingly aware of the drought. there was a poll from the public policy last month that two thirds felt more to be done. i love in long beach which is a city of half a million people. for more than a year we can only water our lawns at night three days of a week. you have to ask for water in a
restaurant. everyone recognizes this is just the beginning. >> we can put these up too. if you are a resident of california, these are the local press giving you tips on how you can cut your water reduction. these are the kinds of things you should be doing. cut your shower time in half. raise the blade on your lawn mower. put food cullingoloring in the toilet tank. you should scrape your dishes, not rinse them. thaw food in your fridge do that overnight. instead of using water to defrost it t.. these are practical things. california is this almost like destination state for decades. people want to move to california. it's part of the american dream. is there a fear that's changing a little bit with this? >> it already is. when i first moved to california, people always said you could surf in the morning
and ski in the afternoon. you can't ski in the afternoon anymore. you look at pictures coming out of the ski resorts. you have tiny patches of snow. resorts are closing early. long term they don't think this is fixable anytime soon. they're putting in climbing walls and zip lines because they need to do something to make money. it's changed our way of life. people think in terms of measures on residences, this is just the first step. people are talking about having to cover your pools. people are talking not being able to fill their pools, not being able to water your lawn at all or wash your cars. i think people recognize this is just probably the first step of a lot of you know reductions that we're going to see in the future. >> i got to say one of the more disturbing thing yz saw. this is jeff wheelwright. he talked about how this might dismantle california's easy going social compact. having watched my neighbor wash
his truck when he's not supposed too, i'll be turning him in. if the drought continues california's easy going social compact may crack and wither. that's an alarming forecast. in the city where i live also we have restrictions on water use. i don't think they're well-enforced. i think that will change if things continue down the path we're on. >> thanks for getting up at 2:30 in the morning. still ahead -- it's 5:30 i can do the month. bob menendez is fighting to fight the corruption charges. can he beat the wrap? the latest on a deadly storm system that plowed through the midwest. the dangerous scene in louisville on the other side of this break. (son) oh no... can you fix it, dad? yeah, i can fix that. (dad) i wanted a car that could handle anything. i fixed it!
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two days of rain and winds came to an end last night. the streets of louisville underwater in flash flooding. first responders rescuing 160 people. part of this road in suburban louisville collapsed. we will be going to louisville live for the latest in our next hour. up next, making the case for and against senator bob menendez. who has the tougher dasktask the prosecutors or the senator who says it's friendship nothing illegal about that. stay with us. sm and now telcos using hp big data solutions are feeling the love, too. by offering things like on-the-spot data upgrades an idea that reduced overcharge complaints by 98%. no matter how fast your business needs to adapt if hp big data solutions can keep wireless customers smiling,
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quote, it's hard to imagine he'll have enough time to represent his constituents while he braces for a legal fight that will drag on for years. prosecutors say he accepted nearly million dollars in gifts in donation from a florida eye surgeon. all this they allege in exchange for political favors of melgen's behalf. the gifts showered include a stay in a five star hotel in paris. trips to melgen's vacation home in the dominican republic on a private jet. and expensive meals all paid for by melgen. menendez and melgen entered pleas of not guilty to those charges on thursday. they have deny breaking the law. >> these allegations are false. i am confident they will be proven false. ulate look forward to doing so in court. >> the question is can menendez
beat the rap? i want to bring ing our legal dream team. criminal defense team. he worked to overturn the laundry conviction for tom delay. and hewas part of the team who convicted a senator. brian, i'll start with you, you got a delay cleared. let's see menendez calls you up your take the case what is the message? all the gifts they can prove that melgen this guy gave to menendez. clearly he intervened in some way on his behalf what's the defense? >> i don't want to break character as house counsel for it damned on this show. this guy is in big trouble. on final four weekend, this guy is 15 seed up against two. he's also a guy who over the last 30 years made his bones in new jersey politics.
all the way back from the time he was the mayor of union city and wore a bullet proof vest to ferret out corruption. we do know that in new jersey politics is a greek word that means i want you to give me 650,000 of your american express points so i can stay in paris. the indictment alleges a number of acts that are certainly sketchy. my favorite legal word. pureiant. don't know what that means but it sounds bad. can they prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? this is a friendship that goes back generations. politics is everybody who has ever watched the show is about friends helping friends. that doesn't mean it's a criminal act guys. >> that's the fingthing. from a prosecutor's standpoint, they can make a correlation there. they can say there's a connection between these gifts and official acts what menendez
is going to say, this is one of my closest personal friend. where do you draw that line legally? because let's say this was something else. let's say melgen had called him off, i got a nephew can you get him an internship. technically he's doing him a favor and he got money for that. you wouldn't prosecute that. >> this is an easy case for the prosecution. it proves the case by the timing and by asking the jurors to use their common sense. every time this doctor got a huge favor from the senator, the senator gets rewarded cash money it in the form of political contributions or gifts. if you read this 68 page indictment, it reads like a menu of how much the senator charges for what service. how much it costs to get him to get your girlfriends a visa. how much he charges to help your business get a government contract. if you have a dispute with
medicare and you want him to get a meet ing with the secretary of health and human services that cost $300,000. jurors are getting fed up with this corruption. if this is a friendship this is incredible friendship with benefits. come on. >> from a prosecutor's standpoint we had most recently the justice department went after the late alaska senator. they botched that and it ended up getting thrown out. are there lessons for that for this? >> no. first of all, that case went to a jury. the jury convicted senator stevepssteve stevens stevens. it turns out the justice department didn't disclose all the evidence. they dropped the case. would they have done that for somebody that's not a senator? i kind of doubt it. that's what happened in that case. moreover if we look at mcdawnal in virginia. these guys got convicted. i think what my boy brian says
this is new jersey politics when the prosecution brings these cases they're trying to send a message not only to the politicians that who are considering corruption you better not do that. they're also educating the general public. they're asking us to have higher expectations for our public servants. >> brian, if menendez looks at this a few weeks or months from now as this is going towards trial and says i don't like my odds in this trial, can he use the fact he's still in the senate and holding on to the senate seat can that be lrveaged? can he say i'll give up the seat, and resign in exchange for leniency? >> i think that's one of his options. obviously, as in any criminal case where there are two defendants. he can turn on dr. melgen. the fact that senator menendez has led a life of good work and public service, will certainly count for something. but my concern as my boy paul
just said the timing and the frequency of these acts are what concerns me. i mean it's like they say in west texas, steve, once is happenstance second is -- third time is enemy action. it's not that he saw fit to intercede with medicare. what concerns me and what i think may upset new jersey jurors, the notion i'm going to try to hook you up for three of your girlfriends from far flung venues as varied a brazil and also, ukraine. >> well thanks as always. defense attorney -- he always brings the lines, paul butler we appreciate you both being here. still ahead in our next hour. the unlikely political coalition that brought together everyone from miley cyrus to walmart. that and much more to come. stay with us. merica with escape and fusion. i like the sexy look to it.
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whose america is it? thanks for staying with us this saturday morning. coming up this hour the new front in the culture wars. does accepting same sex marriage as the law of the land mean you have to bake the cake for the wedding? it's an important part of the indiana story. ahead, how do you respond if you're a republican who wants to be president. they have to appease the conservative base without turning off the rest of the electorate electorate. also, today kicks off final four weekend. both the men's and women's college basketball tournaments coming to a head. is the secret to being the best in college basketball giving up your cell phone? we'll look into that question
ahead. we will also be finding out what chris christie is now saying about bridge gate. plus his tips for a good rigatoni with meat sauce. our buddy has come up with a great idea for a political talk show. he's brought clips with him, you are not going to want to miss this. that is later this hour. we begin with the newest clash in the culture wars. protecting the rights of gay americans versus protecting the rights of religious people who object to gay marriage. the battle coming to a head this weekend in indiana and arkansas. where religious freedom legislation that critics say would have authorized discrimination against gay people. governor mike pence and arkansas governor had signed revised measures meant to address those concerns. >> this debate goes on. but the fact that it might not
solve every problem for everyone probably means it's a good bill. >> these fixes don't solve every problem for everyone in this debate. "the new york times" reporting liberal critics said the new versions did not go far enough to prevent discrimination and some social conservatives saw the measures as needlessly watered down. this is about a lot more than just indiana and arkansas. this week's firestorm raises difficult questions about the country as a whole. a country where gay marriage is already legal in two thirds of states. and where the supreme court is expected very soon to make it legal in all 50. by this summer the right of gay and lesbians to mary may be settled law in every corner of america. but even at that it is still far from a settled culture or religious issue. a big chunk of the country that is four out of every ten americans, that chunk of the country still opposes gay marriage. as a legal matter the country is
moving towards same sex emergency. but many religious conservatives want nothing to do with it. that is the question that emerges from this week. where do their rights the rights of religious people who think gay marriage is a sin. where do their options to opt out of gay marriage end? they think they shouldn't provide services for wedding ceremonies. is there a balance that can be struck here? a brang between religious freedom as conservative christians are defining it and non-discrimination as lgbts committees. either the christian bakery has to bake for the ceremony or not. how do you balance that in a post gay marriage america? we have the former new york city
council member. we have nan hayworth from new york and the editor from daily beast. let me start with you, i mean that basic conflict we talked about here -- it seems to me this week if you're looking at this from a standpoint of a religious conservative, you're saying about my right not -- if i don't want to make the cake i shouldn't. if i think it's immoral. if you look at this from discrimination. >> that's been the craziest thing. we have these laws in 20 states and we have something like those laws in another 11 states. these have never been used for someone to skraefluccessfully evade a law. it's never been used for this. in new mexico there is a
wedding photographer who said i want to use this to try troost i don't have to do a wedding. you lose the thing we have been so excited all week doesn't have anything to do with that interesting question which is should we compel somebody who is providing a business service to do something they don't want to. al i don't think we should. i don't think that's the way you persuade people. the culture has moved towards gay marriage. the side that wants legal recognition has won. okay. so and it's won mostly through culture and through this -- persuasion. once you start knocking people in the head with that that ceases to become persuasive in my view. these don't have anything to do with that. >> christine, i hear her trying to get in. >> i want to make sure people understand, though, that the law passed or attempted too passed in indiana is very different
than the federal one. people have been making that comparison. that law gives indiana law gives individuals affirmatively the right to discriminate and makes them corporations which is a whole another question. treats them in a way that basically government was treated in the federal law. that's really troubling. and it's exactly what we feared when the hobby lobby case came in. exactly what the people were forthe hobby lobby case said would never happening. we see it happening. >> christine, i appreciate that. but at the same time i want to broaden this conversation out to just this idea of how to balance the concept of religious liberty and how to balance the value of non-discrimination in the post gay marriage america. at a certain point, it does seem irreckon siable to me. you think about the born again
christian baker either says no, i don't want to or he has to. >> that baker is in a service industry. i think the balance is that person has full religious freedom. we can't force their church to do anything. but when their desire to embrace their religion impacts on my rights to access services you've stepped over the line. >> what do you think? >> i agree with that statement. i think it's important for the context of the discussion of the indiana law it was passed in response to what happened in new mexico to try and change the ability of people to not have to do these kinds of things. i want -- i don't think they're reckon siable. i think you're going to have to force people to do things they don't want to do. that's sometimes what happens. al i think it's important to understand. when we talk about the indiana law, that it had intent behind it. there are people who passed that law intended to be able to use
it as a defense for discrimination. >> it's important -- >> the intent is important. what was intended by the people who passed and supported this law. i think it showed an ugly side of this debate on both sides. >> what it speaks to this is -- there's a culture moment we're living in. we are probably months away from gay marriage no longer being a contested legal issue. at the same time we still live in a country where the significant chunk of the population believes this is sinful and they don't want any part of it. >> if we -- >> the question -- >> if you let -- >> hang on a second. the question is what right do they have to opt out of that? matt was saying earlier, he says, this is not the way to pursue the sort of the next phase of this battle. it is not to insist the baker be
able to have to provide the cake no matter what. what do you think? >> i think so long as we have these laws i think there is good reason to allow our citizens the original impetus for the federal law was to allow native americans who spoked as part of their religious ceremonies means to access that. there were specific issues that had nothing to do with moral opposition to what some citizens do whom we should be serving in our public accommodations. given that we have these laws i think it's very important, as a society, we have a fundamental value that every person -- it is enshrined in our constitution fundamentally every person should be allowed to pursue his or her life in the way he or she chooses. so long as we are not defrauding or causing forceful harm to
anyone else. and i certainly think that it's very appropriate to express the spirit of that. if we're going to have religious freedom restoration laws for good reason it's important to state the principle within the context of the law. that this does not mean that you can, if you are a business offering your services to the public. that you can discriminate against people based on their characteristics. >> christine, i'm a member of the westberro baptist church you are a baker i want you to work my wedding. should the state -- should you be compelled. should you face $150,000 fine as happened to the baker in portland if you say no, i don't like your church i'm not going to serve you. >> as a baker, i'm providing public services. i shouldn't have the right to deny you because i don't like your religion or how you practice it. let me be clear, i do not like
how that church practices their religion. i also want to remind folks about a backdrop to all of this. many states in the union and the federal government do not provide protections based on sexual orientation or gender identity and gender expression. we have a real issue here that this brings up. in many states right now, and perhaps soon god willing in the entire country, there will be full marriage equality. that means there are states where people could theoretically get married on saturday and then fired on monday for having gotten married and made it clear that they're lgbt. this is a issue beyond the so-called religious freedom laws we have to address by affirmatively adding sexual orientation, gender identity and expression into all these civil j human rights laws in every state. >> i want to pick up on one thing you were saying. this is what my question is you
were saying earlier, you don't think the way to pursue this is to insist on the business has to provide the service, no matter what. i get your point how this can work a lot of different ways. there's the question here of once you open that door you could blow -- somebody else could come in and blow it open. it doesn't have to stay this narrow. >> that's not where the culture is going. a majority of republicans under the age of 45 are in favor of gay marriage. a huge number of people under 30 is for gay marriage. is there a business out there that is known for not supporting gay marriage? >> there's a difference between the way you persuade people to be accepting and the laws that we make. i think you're right. i don't think that the hate that was poured out on that pizza
place in indiana was appropriate. i do not like the fact that people who i'm aligned with expressed themselves in such a way that will not convince that family to be more open and accepting of gay marriage. >> nor will anyone else. >> i'm not going to donate money because i think they were acting like bigots. >> you talk about this moment you're living ints. almost a million dollars has been raised for that pizza place. >> is there a consumer organization that is being not serving gay people? yes, there is one in indiana. >> it's an important factual thing. they said if i was asked to do a wedding -- which they never will be because they're a pizza place in a small town. they wouldn't do it. they said they will continue serving gay people. >> christine, we'll go to you. >> this is generating that whole controversy generated more heat than light.
there's a reason it did. clearly, we do have among us fellow citizens who feel that they are being discriminated against because of the fact of who they are. who we are and there's what we do. for example, wrardsith regard to west boro baptist, if you walk into a bakery and said i don't like baptists i won't serve you. if you say i don't like the church and you decide you don't want to be involved. i think the business has a legitimate right to say i'm not participating in that activity. >> we lost the connection with christine. i wanted to give her the last word. i want to thank her for joining us this morning. also, matt welch, i appreciate you being here. how is what we saw in indiana and arkansas this week playing on the campaign trail? that part of the discussion is next. as we look at the candidates for
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religious liberty is so under assault. it's never been as under assault as it is right now in this country. and religious liberty is not some fringe it is an issue that unifies us and brings us together. >> that was senator ted cruz citing religious liberty as one of his big issues in iowa. the fallout from indiana's religious freedom law playing well. but also affecting the other 2016 candidates. jeb bush gave support for mike
pence but then told california something different. can conservative subjects that play well in the party play well on the national stage? . back with us we have the panel. nan hayworth and laura and victoria albuquerqueburke. talking about how the presidential field reacted. let's start with monday this is just sort of really beginning to traction. jeb bush goes on a conservative radio show. >> i think governor pence has done the right thing. florida has a law like this. bill clinton signed a law like this at the federal level. this is simply allowing people of faith space to be able to express their believes.
to have -- to be able to be people of conscious. >> that's monday. two days later, bush is at a closed door fund raising event in california. word leaks out of what he tells the audience in there. he says he actually favors a more consensus oriented approach. that's what he calls it. towards this issue. prompting a headline he's flip-flopping. he seems to shift tone in his praise of indiana law. bush trying to have it both ways. what i'm seeing is it's the story of the republican party. it's the business community. they say we don't want this issue to be distracting from everything else. bush tells them that. sort of the grassroots heart of the republican party, still a lot of reliblsh conservative whose have problems with gay marriage. >> they know what their demographics are. the problem becomes your on the wrong side of history. big time. you're making an issue out of something that i don't think many people stay up at night thinking about when they're about to vote for somebody.
it becomes a commentary on who you don't like. it's a negative commentary on a certain group of people for no reason. i don't think this will be a big issue this time next year. with the republican party. you never know. >> cruz has dug him heels in. i'm going to be the one that is defending traditional emergency. he said it tin public private. that's where he's chosen to stake his claim. i think that will wind up being bad news for him. if you look at the polling on this issue among conservatives in general, of course people say you should have the right to refuse service. if you look at hispanic catholics and protestants, they say no. people with a history of bigotry. people who have experienced bigotry in their lives are sensitive to it and see it as a problem. i think any attempts by the gop to reach out beyond their base which is what they're trying to do -- i don't know. >> they said in their autopsy
report after the 2012 campaign they talked about -- nan, you talked about gay rights issues being a threshold issue for voters. you have to be right on this issue before they will look at you. >> young voter and minority voters. >> rightly so. we are an inclusive society that we were devised to be that with of course, having -- had to fight a great civil war and a great civil rights struggle beyond that to get to a better point in our history. it's crucial for anybody who wants to serve the broad public to concentrate on the issues that unite us all. and to be inclusive. you know as far as i can tell our biggest problem is that we have an economy that isn't including everybody. that isn't fair to everybody. because we have a government that is profaligate and does
impose too much of that. let's talk about that, those hard issues. >> instead -- >> instead of trying to narrow segment of the face. >> republicans are getting that vote anyway. >> we don't know who's getting the primaries. you have ten candidates out there h. we should point out -- republican candidates this week we should say, those who spoke publicly were supportive of pence, except rand paul who is preparing to make an announcement next week. he's not been responding to any policy policy. >> he's a libertarian. >> probably happy he doesn't weigh in. the longer term detriment posally. i read an article and it resonated with me. the culture wars have shifted. the politics of the culture wars have shifted. a few years ago, take an issue
like gay marriage or rights the consensus of the middle of america was on the right. we're not sure we want this. it played to the republicans. and the democrats had to do a thing a lot of their base wanted them to be on there. we're going to scare off middle america. it's shifted. >> what they're going to do is make the gay lobby into a nra. a strong group that's gauten all the political victories already in the courts and legislatively. now you made it -- we saw what happened with the business community in indiana. millions of dollars leaving the state. mike pence looking foolish and losing huge. that will continue. there is no other way this is going to go. the supreme court in terms of their lobbying strength and their political victories, they're right up there. they win. they know what to focus on. they go for the legal victories. they focus excellently. >> they have -- >> culture change, right -- >> with them majority of
americans don't back the laws that are proposed by the nra. i think it's different. >> the nra still wins why is that? the people on the ground in america -- >> politics -- >> saying can swing elections. >> the gay lobby is up there -- >> there is no gay lobby. one is nra. >> you won't find an address for that. >> tell me where the big pink building is. still ahead is ohio governor john kasich trying to be the new christie? new this morning, a survivor is found from that horrific militant attack in kenya that left over 140 people dead. we'll be going live to kenya. that is next. stay with us. why are we so committed to keeping you connected? why combine performance with a conscience? why innovate for a future without accidents? why do any of it?
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survivor. hiding in a cupboard two days after that attack. nbc news correspondent bill neely has nor. >> from the scene of a terrible massacre a remarkable story of survivor. 19-year-old cynthia a student at the universities has been found after two days. she was hiding. she covered herself with clothes. she heard the gunmen ordering her students to come out of hiding and refused to come out. she stayed there. she was scared when rescuers came. it was only when she heard the voice of her teacher that she decided the coast was clear and emerged. she was tired and hungry and thirsty. otherwise, she said i simply prayed to god. she's a christian. and she survived. some good news but unfortunately most of the news is bad. i've spent most of the day at a
mortiaary where 119 bodies are gathered. terrible scenes there of grief. of emotion, as one by one the relatives view pictures of the dead that have been taken and they're put up on screens. they were warned before they went in that this would be a very difficult scene. and they come out, as you can imagine in a terrible state crying and screaming. there have been fights as tensions spill over with the security people at that morgue. there is anger also in this country, angry that the government people say didn't do enough to stop this massacre. the government has said today they have arrested five people in connection with the attack. they say they've beefed up security all over kenya. there is also a report that the al shabaab terror group which did this has issued another threat saying that there is nothing kenya can do to stop its attacks and that kenya's cities will run red with blood. that threat unconfirmed at the
moment, but in a sense they don't have to issue threats because their actions speak for themselves both here and at the west gate mall two years ago when they killed more than 60 people. kenya still trying to come to terms with this massacre. at least, today we have one story, one good news story if you can call it that of survival. this remarkable girl who has e emerged. >> we appreciate that report. still ahead. governor chris christie on the charges against senator bob menendez. what he's saying might surprise you. our next guest broke bread and made pasta sauce with christie for a tv show. what they talked about. incredible clips from this too. on the other side of the break. stay with us for this one. >> i want to ask you if you had one do over one thing you could go back and revisit and do it
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. i spent a lot of years covering new jersey politics. from my home here in hoboken. this town feeds one of my other passions great food. i've always been fascinated by political deals and cooking great meals. so i figured, why not combine them? >> i have been waiting all morning to play that for you. been teasing it all morning. it is the intro to a great new politics show which has the perfect premise. talks with new jersey politicians while cooking pasta. naturally it's called pasta and politics. not only does it air thursday on new jersey public television. the governor of new jersey is the first guest. together nick and the governor
talk celery pour cream and discuss big issues. to share what governor christie said about that and share more of his new show is the host of pasta and politics. welcome. we have clips here. i want to play them and get you to talk about them. the concept. i love the idea of this. where did the idea come from? >> out of my little brain. i was looking -- i mean the people were looking for new ideas for shows. this was at the top of the list and they said that's a great idea. >> you got a kitchen, you call chris christie up. how did you get chris christie to agree to do this? >> you have to understand that the commitment was made a long time ago. this show has been two years in the making. and he wasn't going to back out on the commitment just because
things have happened in the last two years. it was tougher landing a date with him because he may be running for president. >> he's not as new jersey as much as he used to be. >> i've known him a long time. i've known him since he was a freeholding in morris county. that wasn't hard to get to him and pitch the show. he thought it was a great idea and did it. i wouldn't have done it unless he could do the pilot. >> the idea here was each -- every week you're going -- every show. >> one a month. >> they pick a dish. what did christie pick? >> rigatoni. it was a -- i was surprised. it's a complicated dish. this is not something where you just throw something in the pan. there are many ingredients. but he has been around a kitchen. >> let's play the clip first. >> sure. >> this is -- he picks the dish.
they're in the kitchen. this is what happens. >> governor we're going to take a half a pint of heavy cream. in case anybody thought this was a dietetic dish. >> letten a governor can do this. this is part of my function here. >> beautiful. beautiful. you get it. >> slowly. >> all right. >> give it about half of it and we'll mix it in and do the other half. very nice. this is cooperation. >> yeah. >> you're better than most of the sous chefs i've had. >> what was it like? >> we talked about new jersey politics in general, we talked about some specific things. you can't get too specific because it's not timely. the show is not going to air. this was taped two months ago, six weeks ago. you can't really be timely. he's -- he can be very charming when he wants to be. he can be very tough when he wants to be. >> i was going to say do you
think there's any -- do you think you can divine any meaning about people's personality? he's a man of hearty appetites. clearly. >> it's a hearty dish. maybe you can. some of them didn't really know what they wanted to cook. we had to talk about when you go in a restaurant. we taped a show with former governor tom cain. he just said something with scalps. i love scal ups. he left a lot of it up to me. and some of them have been definite. sweeney, the senate president said i got to behave rigatoni with roasted peppers. >> how much did bob menendez want to be on the show? >> he has made a commitment to be on the show but that was before his more recent troubles. i don't know. >> pay you back -- >> i hope he still does it. >> file it --
>> we -- >> so it is what we discussed -- >> let's take a look at another clip from the show. you finished the meal then you put it over the the table, pour the wine and start talking. let's play one of the subjects that came up. >> i want to ask you if you had one do over. one thing you could go back and revisit and do it differently, what would it be? >> gosh i wouldn't have been as trusting of some people. i would have asked more questions on certain things in general. i wish i would have that to do over again. >> how would that have worked really? >> i don't know. >> you ask -- >> i know what you're talking about, you're talking about the bridge. you did ask people and people are going to lie to you consistently. >> yeah. i think for me i'm pretty good. maybe i could have been more
aggressive. i don't know it's one of those things that's still kind of surreal to me. and i don't really understand it still. but it's something that has been you know a really bad period. >> true. >> for me. you know, both personally and professionally. >> when you asked that question what's the do over for you? did you expect that's where he'd go? >> sure. sure. i don't think he has many other doubts about his career. i was actually positive that's where he would go. i didn't expect him to be that forth right. and, i mean his -- he has always insisted he was lied to and he didn't press hard enough. i wasn't surprised at all by the answer. >> all right. the show is a pasta and politics. you say tom cain is going to be on it in an upcoming episode? >> yes. senate president steve sweeney, priato and lieutenant governor. >> you got to be in new jersey to watch. i hope you guys -- i have been
begging you to put the clip online. >> i hope they're going to tut it on their website. >> check my twitter account. if this is up there, i guarantee you i'm putting it out there. those clips you can see on our website i think. >> if hillary clinton wants to come on the show i'd be glad to cook whatever she wants. >> hillary, after you finish up, head over to new jersey. pasta and politics appears wednesday night at 8:30. up next winter is back in parts of the country that is ready for spring. le. one of those guys who just can't stop talking. i was downloading a movie. i was trying to download a movie. i have verizon. i don't. i get that little spinning wheel. download didn't finish. i finished the download. headphones on. and i'm safe. i didn't finish in time. so. many. stories. vo: join us and save without settling. verizon.
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is here live in louisville. >> 5.6 inches of rain in a 24 hour period. that's a record for april. never has there been that much rain in one day. if you behind me at the university of louisville. there was five feet of water in that yesterday. as you can imagine, all that rain that record amount of rain and it overwhelmed the drainage systems. people were stuck in their cars houses and apartments. the water levels kept rising. there were at least 150 water rescues yesterday. you mention those two fatalities fatalities, those happened further east. a woman was swept away as she was in her car. the police couldn't get to her. and also at a campground there was a family camped and a big tree fell on that family. the woman was killed. the husband was injured but the kids are okay.
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once again, my panel is back. we're going to get caught up on some of the other headlines making news this morning. another round of catching up, the index card segment. a headline from a new jersey newspaper with a columnist noticing that chris christie tiptoeing around bob menendez's legal woes. christie is not piling on who is indicted on 14 counts this
week week. everybody deserves the presumption of innocence. there's no reason for anybody to get ahead of themselves. interesting situation on this one. >> he's right. there's a presumption of innocence. if you read the indictment, which a nerd like me did, it's pretty bad stuff. it's worse than the bob mcdonald case. you do this and i do that one day after the other type stuff and that's just not good. >> christie, too -- >> he gets ahead of things pretty often and accuses and then apologizes. it seems odd. >> it seems interesting to me because we have talked about it on this show the reporting is out there that indictments are eminent in this it bridgegate scandal. he says now we want the presumption of innocence. what's in "the washington post" this morning? college kids giving up their cell phones the incredible tale of the maryland women's
basketball. team. they are in the final four. they have a unique policy. they gave up their cell phones. the girls on the team gave up their phones for 72 straight hours last weekend, went out there, got a trip to the final four. apparently it worked. i couldn't be separated from my phone. >> isn't that the beauty of being in the moment and being engaged? >> i gave up my phone for awhile a few years ago. i gave it up for three months. twitter and facebook and e-mail for about three months. it made a huge difference in my life. i left d.c. and went off and did some stuff, found myself but it made a huge difference. i have never looked at it the same way again. i have been able to put it away. >> can you hold that thought? i want to check something. >> if you do that it it's good for everybody if you do that
kind of thing it will seem hard but once you discover the ability to do it you will thank yourself every time. >> i couldn't do it. >> substituted shallowness for depth. we have a lot of chatter in our lives. but we're still missing. >> we like u some kind of stimulation. i'm sitting in a meeting this week, the thing ran like 11 hours. i had my phone. you hear it buzzes twice for me if it's a text. once if it's an e-mail. i'm sitting for a couple hours, that's a double that's a text who is that? you just want to know. i go to the bathroom and check it and it's nothing. i didn't miss anything but i feel like i'm missing everything. it's tough habit to break. personal quirks at heart of 2016 prospects for ohio's kay sit, he
has some of the same appeal as chris christie. he goes off script regularly and is known for a prickly personality. we talk about this crowded, unsettled republican field. i have been saying this is the guy. i like at him and say, i could see the opening. if this is a party that doesn't want to nominate jeb bush. or ted cruz you need somebody there -- i'm not bush, but i'm electable. he did some different things with scott walker too. >> the medicaid expansion was huge, but he's going to get beat up. he can say i'm a different type of republican and that can work. >> is he alerlergic to dogs? >> that was scott walker. >> at least he had an excuse that he was allergic to dogs. >> especially since the convention is going to be in
ohio. >> in ohio the swingiest of swing states. we have one more headline a sad one, we do want to get this one in. sara brady, the widow of james brady, gun. control advocate her husband's life changed the assassination of reagan a that wounded her husband, paralyzed him. she died yesterday at the age of 73. sarah brady, a major figure for the last 30 plus years unfortunately some sad news to end the e show but we wanted to make sure to include that. i will thank our panel for today. appreciate you all being here. thank you for getting up with us today. we urge you and invite you to watch our show tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. before that stick around for melissa harris-perry. she is coming up next. have a great saturday. you total your brand new car. nobody's hurt,but there will still be pain. it comes when your insurance company says they'll only pay three-quarters
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this morning my question why do some folks have a problem with the simple fact that black girls rock. plus a justice department delayed could mean justice denied. and response to the noose found on a tree at duke university. but first, the political evolution that seems to have caught republicans by surprise. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. today is one of the biggest days in college sports the final four. today in indianapolis the final four teams in the men's ncaa basketball tournament face-off to determine who will compete in the championship game on monday. this is huge. those office bracket pools, they add up. americans will gamble more than $2 billion