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tv   The Cycle  MSNBC  April 8, 2015 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. we begin with breaking news. it is 3:00 p.m. here on the east coast with dzokhar tsarnaev has been found guilty on all 30 counts against him in the boston marathon bombing trial. 17 counts carry the death penalty. that phase could begin, according to the judge, as early as monday. we're watching outside of the court right now for reaction to the begin news. ron mott there in boston where he's been covering the trial. ron, what can you tell us at this hour? >> reporter: hey, there, ari. can you see the door behind us at the federal courthouse. we are anticipating some of the victims of this bombing may come through the doors here. the media is assembled off camera waiting to get reaction to them. i spoke to one of the victims who is not downtown earlier today and she was surprised the jury did not come back with a
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verdict yesterday. so if there is any surprise about the verdict, it is the fact that it did take the jury a second day to reach a verdict on all 30 of the counts and's mentioned 17 now qualify dzokhar tsarnaev for the death penalty. i'm a resident of massachusetts and i can tell you this is a death qualified panel but there is opposition to the death penalty here in the commonwealth of massachusetts. so the penalty phase is far more personal than the criminal phase, the trial itself because you are deciding in the black and white of the law in the trial and now all of a sudden you are being asked so decide whether this person should spend their life in prison or be sentenced to death. so the question is whether tamerlan, the older brother, masterminded this or whether he influenced his younger brother to take part. and whether the jury will be swayed by that, in the next phase, which is the start of the
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defense, is yet to be seen. but the lead attorney for dzokhar tsarnaev has said there is no disputing the facts here that the who, what where and when is clear. he is there and on video. you see him sote the bomb that kill martin richard and set the video and then 20 minutes later he calmly buys milk and then saying he lives a stress-free life. and then a mountain of evidence saying that considering the relationship he lives with his brother was stress free. and this is a difficult process i suspect for the jurors considering this young man's life is now firmly in their hands, ari. >> ron, thanks for the reporting. as you were speaking we were watching some folks leave the courtroom. and we'll bring in our legal team caleb mason and defense attorney christopher mulch. good day, caleb, starting with
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you, we'll talk about the death penalty phase. as ron was mentioning and for jurors just joining us what does it mean that the federal prosecutors were successful on successful count, all 30 meaning both the terrorism and murder charges related to the boston bombing itself as well as several incidents and violence that occurred afterward? >> i think if you wanted to read any conclusions into that it would be that the jury was not receptive that the general theory that dzokhar was a junior partner and not involved in the conspiracy both before and after the bombing itself. other than that i wouldn't read touchdown into it. at the guilt phrase the prosecutor only has to prove the facts. for a conspiracy, one does not have to prove the defendant was
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aware of and intended to participate in every single aspect of the conspiracy only the general aims and purposes which was amply proved. >> and christopher, from the defense perspective, what did the defense fail to do in the eyes of the jury regarding the conspiracy and the more serious capital charges? >> well i think it is difficult to say they failed on anything. when they gave their opening statements, they acknowledged his guild right away. and in this entire process so far it is one long answering hearing. there is no way you can default the defense other than their plan was to say he was involved but not nearly as much as someone to be executed. so i think it has gone along as planned planned. and the fact that the jury did this in two days and asked questions and indicates they were listening and open-minded as far as this case is involved.
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>> and caleb, what other factors do you expect the jury to consider to ask the judge when they move into the penalty phase next week? >> as you know judy clark is the nation's foremost expert in this case, if anybody will present a persuasive case for the jury to vote against the death penalty is her. she would focus on mitigation the role in the offense and the other is factors about the defendant himself. and in this case, as ari pointed out a moment ago, they would find he had a more active role in the offense than he had. they would find he had more active participation before and after the bombing. the writings in the boat will make it hard to think he didn't participate or have a motive. she may want to focus on youth,
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inexperience immaturity and his ability to be led by others and specifically his brother. and as we talked about yesterday, she may well be able to put on persuasive psychological expert testimony that the 19-year-old brain is simply not sufficiently developed with respect to the areas of impruls control and higher processing faculties for us to subject a 19-year-old person to the full degree of responsibility that we would an adult. >> chris let me get you to pick up that question because you know judy clark, who has been defending tsarnaev throughout this. how will she try to save his life when we go to the sentencing phase. >> i met judy back in 2002 when she was defending jay lense who was in eastern virginia. and i got to talk to her afterwards and spend time with her. what she is amazingly good at is
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humanizing people. right now the jury has only seen this monster. someone they read about in the newspaper or seen on the stand -- or in the courtroom any way. and they don't have a sense of who he is. and so what she's remarkably good at is understanding what could motivate someone like this to behave in a way that is unfathomable to most people. picking up on what caleb said she will spend a lot of time talking about who he is as a person and where he came from the fact that his family emigrated here under atrocious circumstances how he was overwhelmingly influenced by his brother and giving the jury any reason to spare his life rather than execute him. they are in the perfect district for him. and the death penalty is not favored in boston and i would imagine the prosecution tried a way to figure out how to get this case anywhere else. but if anybody can find a way to keep the jury where they need to
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be in terms of seeing mercy as opposed to the ultimate punishment, it is judy. >> caleb, i want to put this out to you. the boston globe put out a poll in 2013 about whether people believe he should get life in prison with out parole and death penalty. 57% said life without parole and 33% for death penalty. and there is no death penalty in massachusetts. and how will the jury take the next step in the punishment based on how they feel about the death penalty. >> right. well it is worth keeping in mind about what the procedural mechanism that is that is referred to in the shorthand of death qualifying. in the voir dire process the court will ask protective jurors whether they have moral, ethical, religious scruples that would prevent them from imposing
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the death penalty and if people answer yes to that they will be excused from the jury in a capital case. this is a practice the merits of which have been long debated because it has been argued that this slants jurors -- in potentially capital cases, in favor of those who would be inclined to vote for conviction. but as to the fact that public opinion generally is against the death penalty, i think even those jurors who do not have personal moral scruples that would prevent them from ever imposing it may be related to people who do or go to church where the pastor does it and they have it in the air. in other words they are breathing the cultural air that does not favor this penalty and thus they are going to think much longer and harder than would jurors who come from a cultural environment that understand that murderers should be executed. the jury doesn't have to give a
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reason for its decision and decide not to impose the death penalty for any personal reason any legal reason they choose and they never have to divulge that. >> caleb and christopher, stick --. joining us from boston, assistant metro editor from the boston globe. thank you for being with us. and we're starting to get reaction from jeffrey bowman who lost both of his legs. he said today's verdict will never replace the lives lost and so dramatically changed but it is a relieve and one step closer to closure. what is the reaction in the community today? >> i think a lot of people are saying their prayers are with the victims. the mayor said there is a small amount of closure for the victims and hoping for a swift verdict in the death penalty phase but everyone's prayers and thoughts were with them because it is a devastating event in the history of the city and you had three people kills and the
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m.i.t. officer sean collier killed and everybody is thinking about the impact of that. it is traumatic for that. and the death penalty phase will be starting next week and everybody will be watching that and that could go on for a week or two and everybody will be watching that. and trauma for the city. and it is certainly not over. there is a sense of wii leaf but i think there is a long -- a sense of relief but there is a long way to go. >> and the country is looking to see if bostonians will be willing to be dzokhar to death. the death penalty is unpopular in massachusetts and in boston, as a liberal and catholic city and massachusetts hasn't put anybody to death since 1947 i believe, and do you believe the folks as they go into the communities and know the mood of boston and the feeling about death penalty, are they going to be able to put this man to death or say that is not what we want to do as a community?
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>> well i think you get reaction from various people. the cardinal sean o'malley and the bishop came out against the death penalty for tsarnaev. i think there are a lot of people out there, depending on where you talk to are divided on the issue. some people want him punished for what he did. i think the jurors will decide for themselves. i think they are in a double in terms of what they are going to decide. people in boston certainly have been traumatized by this thing and are watching it very closely. i think we're down on boylston street today and it depends on who you ask, young and old. you get a lot of divided opinion. it could be 50/50 either way when you ask folks. so i think there is a lot of attention and a tremendous amount of interest. in the courtroom, the police commissioner and the head of the fbi office were all there watching this thing and realizing everyone is thinking -- they obviously -- some people believe he should
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get the death penalty but also that the victims need to be treated and look for their reaction and that it is their team to grief and deal with this trauma. >> and to that point, mike your paper did this poll as i mentioned a moment ago in 2013 and it is somewhat divided but a majority 57% say life in prison for dzokhar. regardless of what the penalty ends up being, the death penalty or life in prison is today closure for the community and is today a sigh of relief for everybody experiencing such drama? >> i think it is a small amount of closure as the mayor said but we have a long way to go in terms of whether he does get the death penalty. and people are wondering is that the right course of action? should he spend the rest of his life in prison? is that enough? is the death penalty too good for him? and that is questions people on the street are asking themselves as they watch the death penalty phase unfold. >> mike almost two years have
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passed since the terrible day that we all remember so well. what role in that time have the survivors and the families of the victims taken on in the community? >> i think many people have looked to them as beacons of strength and hope. the people have been out there talking about what they've gone through and their interest and strength in going on with their lives, and in attending the trial, many of them were at the trial, looking dzokhar tsarnaev in the face saying they -- they are stronger and they are better and they've come through this and they will live their lives the way they want to live their lives and he has not destroyed them and they will carry on. dick donahue, the transit police officer is also like that. he nearly died in the watertown shootout and he is out there talking about what happened to him and how he is carrying on with his life as well. >> indeed that is true. boston is a tough town and we're seeing that through all of this
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situation. thank you very much. let's bring in sean hennry former fbi assistant director and so several testifies and the fbi testified in this case and how crucial was their work in getting this conviction? >> i think it is important for fbi and the joint terrorism task force to paint a picture for the jury of exactly what happened. these agents and officers were out, they interviewed hundreds of people and collected thousands of pieces of evidence and went out and were able to secure hundreds of still photos and videos and actually by looking at those videos and looking at those pictures really to bring the jury into the fold so they could see exactly how this transpired and to see just how tragic and how horrendous this type of attack was. >> sean on that point, there was a lot of evidence to work with here. there is photos and videos that you are seeing here that was helpful and in determining and
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figuring out where these guys were. how helpful is that in a case like this and moving along in a quick fashion? >> well i think that the guilt was really a foregone conclusion. the defense said that in essence. it wasn't a matter of whether he was guilty or not. but as we move to the penalty phase, the ability to really play for the jurors how horrendous this crime was, the amount of suffering, bringing in the witnesses, people who actually saw victims bleeding out in front of them. listen to the family members and friends of people who were killed or injured, that sets the stage for the penalty phase and it is the value of having them there to bring the jurors into that process. >> we talked about the case that the federal authorities put together and that beginning with fbi and law enforcement put together and carried out by the
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prosecution. with your experience how hands-on was the fbi and the very broad case they made not simply captured on video or the terrorism and murder itself but the conspiracy and the later incidents which we can now report of all reaching guilty charges with 30 counts. >> right. that is a great question. and i've worked with dozens of prosecutors in many different jurisdictions over the years, it is really a marriage. and a very close relationship where prosecutors are asking the agents for their perspective on things, when they are doing opening or closing arguments and vice versa. this goes back and forth. it really is multiple legs of a stool where each of the agencies the fbi, the u.s. attorney's office bring a different perspective and capability and different level of expertise. together when you take those ingredients an put it together,
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you get the successful prosecution you saw here. >> sean this attack and by many others by tamerlan and dzokhar, that is the first time we picked our heads up and thought about lone wolf terrorist attacks here on american soil and thought about what we could do to protect the public from that possibility. what has the fbi learned from this case how to better prevent another boston marathon bombing or another similar event? >> the fbi and the intelligence community has been worried about lone wolves for quite a long time. i think this incident highlights for the american public what the challenges are for law enforcement to identify people who are not necessarily affiliated with a larger broader organization and working amongst themselves and what do we do going forward and how do we gather intelligence and utilize it to identify and deter the attacks before they occur.
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this case and the tragedy in boston really highlights for everybody how significant this risk is. i think one thing we can take away is the value in the public that the publ sees things they hear things and come across information that they may not think is important, but they've got to bring to the attention of law enforcement, to the fbi and others so they can identify the attacks before they occur and work to protect the community in a much better and effective way. >> sean despite all of the folks working on this investigation and the successful conviction they got, there are still some unanswered questions pertaining to this investigation. one of them that jumps out at me investigators have never conclusively identified the bomb-making site where they made these bombs. does that open question concern you? >> you know, these investigations are so challenging. you look back into time to try
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and piece together what may have happened. i think that highlights the need for intelligence again to try to be pro-active and identify these things as they are occurring because it is much easier to do that than it is to go back in history. you always have unanswered questions. that is a concern. i don't know that question is dead. i'm sure the bureau and others will continue to try to seek that out. but the value of having a proactive approach to law enforcement and using intelligence is really critical to try and prevent these things because piecing them together at the end is never 100% certainty. >> sean, stay with us. i want to bring in jim cavanaugh, the law enforcement analyst. jim, i want to start with something we promised viewers we would get to. the death penalty phase. judy clark is focused on that as the defense counsel here. we've reported on how much of her arguments to date have not been about disproving the counts but rather setting up a process
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by which she might save this department from the death penalty next week. you were the special agent in birmingham and watched her work on a case and tell us what you gleamed from that and how that is relevant? >> well she is extremely capable -- extremely capable defense counsel. i watched her for a solid week in alabama on the eric rudolph bombing through the court of a dal bert hearing, which is an evidentiary hearing and the birmingham police and the state authorities could not beat the police just like the boston marathon bombing. and she was there for the purpose of saving the defendant's life and just like this case she is working to save this guy's life. and she worked to that and that is what this is all about -- >> and how does she do that? she faces that -- we say that
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today, someone that is a convicted terrorist under the most serious federal laws we have against terrorism, how does she paint that picture as early as next week how does she depict that? >> she will use his age, appeal to that because they might have sons daughters, nieces that age so she will drive home the youth of him. she will try to drive home during the criminal trial, the dominance of tamerlan. he was the more dominant personality but it doesn't release dzokhar of the cup pablt. but she will work that with the jury. but if he went to super max in colorado, and that is where mcveigh is. and he couldn't take it. he asked to be put to death. and in some places life is
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worse. i know that is hard to believe sometimes, but places like the super-max, where you are locked up in a cell 23 hours a day, if that is where he was put and mcveigh, and mcnichols, the shoe bomber and sean knows about it fbi, we filled up that bombers row, and it is awful and worse than death in my opinion. but she will try to save his life even to put him there. >> jim, i believe you on that front. but just to remind people there is no death penalty in the state of massachusetts. the reason this is on the table is because this is a federal case. but all of the jurors are a resident of massachusetts. so talk to us about how that might play into this. >> well right. massachusetts is a very liberal, forward-thinking, open-minded state. they don't have the death penalty in their law. so the jurors come from that culture and that society. i was a policeman in florida, death row was full.
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>> jim i'll have to interrupt you. we have the victims' family coming out to speak. >> it has been difficult but we've gotten out through each other. we are a new community of our little family here and we're grateful for everything you all have done and we are also grateful for the press to being respectful to us throughout this whole thing so we appreciate everything you've done for us. >> how do you feel about moving to the next phase and what are your thoughts on that? >> for me personally i'm anxious to get on to that. we're all aware that this is not a process that will be over any time soon. it is probably going to take many years to get through this. but it will be good to have it that much further behind us. one more piece to the puzzle being done. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i can't answer that. we honestly haven't talked that
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much about it. it is a personal thing. i think everyone has their own response to and i don't feel comfortable answering that. >> what was your reaction from the defendant in the courtroom. were you hoping for a reaction? >> i didn't expect anything at all. we were just talking about it inside and whether or not he showed any remorse, how we would feel about it and personally i wouldn't have bought it. i would have been more frustrated if he had shown it because throughout this whole thing he's been -- to use my word arrogant walking in and out of the courtroom and completely disinterested. so if i saw anything from him today, i would have been a little more frustrated. >> your name man. >> my name is karen brassard. >> [ inaudible question ] >> i don't know what justice is. i'm grateful to have him off the street. i'm grateful to show everyone -- the world -- that it is not
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tolerated. this is not how we behave and we're grateful that everyone has worked hard to know that we are not going to allow this. >> is there such a thing as closure here? >> no. and i say that personally just because it is not something that you'll ever be over. you'll feel it forever. there will always be something that brings it back to the forefront, but we'll all move on with our lives and we'll all get back to some sense of normalcy hopefully when this is all done. so closure -- i guess, i don't think so, only because it is forever a part of our life. >> what has this experience been like for you, coming into the courthouse and seeing the guy that did this? >> i'm usually pretty passive personality, so when i first came for at ryanment i was -- the aryan-- the arraignment, i was
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surprised how angry i was, and happy i was to see that he had some pain. but i'm just grateful to have the team that did the work to make sure that the right outcome happened. and i -- i don't want to carry the anger and i don't want to be -- i don't want to feel the anger that i think or drives people to do hateful things. so i want to put it behind me. >>. [ inaudible question ] >> i'm amazed and grateful and i'm glad they took time to go through everything because i wouldn't want anyone to question whether this was just a rash decision. i don't think that it was. i think they took this very seriously. so i'm grateful to them. and i don't envy them. i think about them and what they've had to go through and it is just as traumatic for them i think, to have to experience this and to see everything that they've seen. nobody should have to see.
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and i'm concerned for them and i'm grateful for them. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i just -- what else can they do? i mean they have a job to do. they have to try and make it as easy as possible for him. the brother is not here to alter anything or say anything differently, so i suppose that makes sense. but for me it just didn't matter. he was all-in. he's a grown man and made choices knowing what the outcome could be and knowing what the consequence would be and he made the choice to go ahead. >> who is on the stage with you? carlos what is your reaction. >> go ahead. >> i've been here pretty much supporting the survivors and the family victims and we're here to
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make sure that we support each other. >> hearing he was guilty and it was him, was that too little too late? was any apology on their end mean nothing? >> no. it won't be believable to me. i was surprised to see them come out and say that i was curious about the process and what happens now that they've admitted it why are we going through all of this process. i'm grateful that we did, because i think it will help the jury to make a fair decision. but no at this point, i don't believe there is any remorse. i think it was probably just a foregone conclusion. there was far too much evidence showing that is what happened so they had no other option. >> do you think there is anything to the notion by the defense that the brother was -- that dzokhar was influenced by
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his -- coerces by his older brother? >> notoers ed ersers -- not coerced. but he didn't have the ability to build bombs and do all of that, but i think he was all-in with the brother. i don't think he was driven to that by any means. it is important for me to be here -- out here with you all -- >> no in the trial. >> for me i needed to go through the entire process. it is the way that my healing can complete. >> why? >> because i feel like i needed to experience it from beginning to end. something happened to me. and i need to go through it from beginning to end to get my brain to just understand the whole process. thank you, guys.
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>> thank you very much. >> you've been listening to karen brassard one of the bombing victims. asked if today is one of the closures for her and she said she is glad he's off the street. there is no such thing as closure for her but she wants to put this behind her. i want to go to ron mott in boston for us. and ron, we're beginning to hear from the survivors -- the victims, what are you hearing from where you are? >> as you heard her talk about closure and for some victims, this trial was a bit part of that closure. for others they want to know -- they wanted no part of this trial or recounting the errors they lived through, those who survived two years ago. and so i spoke this morning with one victim who was just a few feet from dzokhar tsarnaev on that day in april two years ago and had shrapnel tear through her right leg and she was able to save her right leg but her
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fiance lost part of his right leg and his brother lost part of his right leg and they didn't want anything to do with coming to the trial. for some it was cathartic and listening to the evident and watching his demeanor and for others they wanted no part of the pain. and spoke to one victim leaving court who lost part of her leg and she said it was very personal for her to come down. she not interested in speaking to the media or sharing her thoughts about going through the prose -- the process. and going forward, this is where it gets personal for the jury because the black and white nature is personal because now deciding fate whether they live or die, is a different thing. and so this panel of 12 men and women who decided that he was guilty on all 30 counts is now beginning to decide whether his crimes were so egregious he
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should be put to death for it. it seems this was a rejection of the defense strategy heretofore. and the defense said he took part in this but his brother tamerlan masterminded it and without tamerlan there might not have been a boston marathon bombing in 2013. we'll see if the jury has to be swayed in the next phase. they say there is no disputing the who, what where and when but it is about the why and they are going to put tamerlan tsarnaev on trial and that by all accounts that dzokhar tsarnaev as a child was a good student and going to college, something happened. his grades sank and suddenly he was online and looking at radical things that the government put on display here during the trial. so the penalty phase is going to be very interesting.
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it could last as long as the trial itself. we understand there will be a lot of witnesses called and hear victims address the court and how this has impact the their lives so this is another painful process for the victims and the families wanting to take part. back to you. >> and karen brassard the victim described dzokhar tsarnaev in the court report arrogant and dirs interested -- disinterested, is that what you perceived and heard from others as well. >> well throughout the proceeding he was not disinterested but maintained a similar comportment. he stared ahead and would occasionally confer with his attorneys and a couple of moments where he shared a laugh or two with his counsel. but if you lived through this particular horrible experience watching his body language, i'm sure, you take away a much
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different reading of his body language. he became really interested at points in time when the fbi was presenting the evidence about him and his brother, when that first wednesday when the people here in the boston area got word of the name and the faces of these two individuals that authorities were looking for, he seemed to be very interested in that. one of the things i think personally if i can say, going forward into the penalty phase, is the video from the grocery store, where 20 minutes after sitting down the backpack with the bomb in it that killed the 8-year-old martin richard, dzokhar tsarnaev is on the video tape casually walking down the aisle to pick out a gallon of milk. that is something that people will be left with long after the end of the trial and the penalty phase. >> ron mott you have been so
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just found guilty of all 30 counts. >> good. that's all? he should be more than guilty of everything. i think it is wonderful and it is great for the city. great to clear the wounds that people have. probably not. but in time the next phase, when we figure out what will happen to him. that is the thing that everybody is going to care about. we know he's dpilguilty. he already said he is guilty. >> indeed dzokhar tsarnaev today convicted of 30 counts in a federal court in boston. let's bring back our legal team former federal prosecutor caleb mason and christopher moelsch. and with the trial, the defense was trying to say, if not nor
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tamerlan judy clark tried to say, this would not have happened. how will that come into play in the sentencing phase. >> in it the sentence -- in the sentencing phase the horrible life of incarceration, like the those in incarceration, she is basically acknowledging dzokhar's guilt at the same time giving reason for the jury not to give him the ultimate penalty. the whole thing will come down to -- to assigning blame and levels of cup pablt and if she can accurately or adequately describe to the jury while he is salvageable and a 19-year-old and guilty but not the most guilty then there is every
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reason for a jury already predisposed to not impose the death penalty, to not impose the death penalty. >> caleb there was question about whether they should have the trial in boston saying he will not get a fair trial in boston, will that come back again and what does that tell us about the defense and how that could effect them in phase two? >> no the defense is not going to have another opportunity to seek a change in venue. the jury will be the same. the courtroom will be the same. i think the issue was that the people in boston had very likely a close personal connection with the bombing and -- and thus may have already formed opinions about it. and with respeck to sentencekck -- respect to sentencing i don't think that will be an issue at all. not only will the jury have potentially formed opinions about the brauming and been
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expose -- bombing and been exposed to it, they have sat through a whole trial's worth of evidence. and now they get to see for the first time the question i'm most interested in here is are they going to put the defendant on to talk to the jury himself? one is inclined to doubt the defense will do that but it might make a big difference. >> and to that point, caleb, we were broadcasting live remarks from a survivor and the healing process and they said they didn't see any remorse from the defendant and they wouldn't buy it if there was any attempt if there was any remorse. talk to us about that aspect at in the sentencing phase when you have a defendant up to this point, everything that we've seen from our nbc reporters in the courtroom, hasn't shown
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remorse, and almost it is fair to say no human feeling in any outward way as jurors have been presented with the horrific evidence of these murders. >> that is right. this is -- this is a dynamic that one often sees between the guilt phase and the penalty phase. the defendant's acceptance of responsibility is a major factor in any sentencing decision and that is true with most sentence sentencingsentence sentencing mostly made by the judge and made by the jury. if the defendant is shown to accept responsibility for what he or she has done that is something that cannot help but have an influence on any person and it is also a factor which is enumerated in our sentencing statutes and case law. in this case yes, he sat there impassively. i'm sure he was instructed by his defense team to sit and not show emotion. that is what you always tell
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your client. don't sit there and make faces, don't sigh or cry. he's certainly not going to go into the guilt phase of a trial and demonstrate acceptance of responsibility there. i think we had this discussion yesterday. >> right. >> they could have -- they could have tried to plead it out and government said no we're still going for death. and so you are going to have a guilt phase and that is just the way the defendants look. so i think it is still possible for him to take the stand, if he wants to and tell his side of the story. if he were to sit up there and say, i regret this completely i was under the sway of my older brother. i never intended for this to happen this way, whatever it is that he wants to say, it will be much more powerful coming from him than from any third-party witness. >> christopher you are a criminal defense attorney and how do you make the decision on whether or not to have the defendant take the stand? >> well i -- i think i probably disagree with caleb on this, i
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can think of no good reason realistically speaking to have him testify at the sentenceing phase. the juror is looking for a reason or explanation. you heard the people talk about if he shows remorse they wouldn't believe it. people are redisposed to believe he is not truly story for what he did. >> that was from a victim's family member, just to be clear. >> right. but i don't think that is a reasonable position for others to hold. to think that someone would be sorry afterwards is going to ring a little hollow. so judy will have him explain for him not to make good decisions and how this all happened. to put him on the stand and to be put him in a position to be cross-examine pd by a seasoned prosecutor who could cross-examine him for hours on why he did what he did and why did he stay in the boat and why
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did he shoot the people and the explanation will come from experts and people who knew him from before and after and those who knew him prior to coming under the spell of his brother. and judy clark is a better lawyer than i'll ever be and i can't imagine she would let him testify unless she could allow him to be enduring of hours of cross-examination. >> the reason she may not put him on the stand. christopher and caleb, thank you for your time on this historic day. guilty on 0 counts-- 30 counts. and the next question will he be put to death or spend a horrible life in prison. we'll be back with more.
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problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. now i have less diabetic nerve pain. and my biggest reason to walk... ...calls me grandpa. ask your doctor about lyrica. welcome back. boston bombing survivor jeffrey baumann said today's verdict will never replace the lives that were lost but it is a relief and one step closer to closure. back with us is the fbi assistant director shawn henry and jim cavanaugh. we're beginning to hear from the sur vooirvivors and the victims. does he deserve the death penalty? "the boston globe" did a poll back in 2013.
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57% said he deserves life in prison without parole. because this is a federal case, that's why the death penalty is on the table. how might this play into the jury as they now move on to phase two? >> right. good question, abby because judy is going to play up the evil tamerlan. just look at the photographs of him. he's bigger. he's wider. he's stronger. he has the big glasses. he's the guy running the show. that's what she used to paint the whole trial. if she can get it in and i'll leave it up to the great attorneys there, will she be able to bring in tamerlan's triple murder? he was a suspect in a triple murder where people were killed in the boston suburbs. vicious, vicious murder.
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dzhokhar is a two-bit weasel and she's going to paint him that way. this guy's life is over for all sense of the word. he may exist breathing and his heart beat but that's about it. there's really not going to be life as anyone would know it. >> to the extent that you can, help us understand dzhokhar's mentality at this point. he wrote that he wanted to be a martyr. is this someone who even wants to live? >> going back to the earlier question about the value of what the fbi brought, i think it was very clear what his statement of mind was. you heard some of the victims in the courtroom testifying or making statements about him
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being very stoic. he's not showing any emotion, very straightforward. i think this is a man that is very solid in his convictions, very clear in his thoughts. he knows the impact he had on the city and he did it in the name of his cause and i think that he accomplished his mission. >> when you look at a case like this, what are the closing arguments in the sentencing phase that we're expecting as early as monday that you would expect the prosecutors to make with regard to the character, the kind of person that this now convicted killer is? >> they did a good job on that the prosecutors did, in saying it was a conspiracy. it took two to tango, but it really did. there was two bombs placed at two separate locations by two men. it's very telling. that video, if they could keep running that in their closing arguments for the government of him planting that bomb.
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a command detonated bomb is you stand there and turn a switch while you see the bomb detonate down the street. >> what you're saying is they can show basically in their prosecutorial judgment this was an individual who wanted to kill and murder innocent people, children. the evidence shows he didn't care is what they would be able to say. >> right, ari. specifically with the bomber, the premeditation is a very long thing. the making of the bomb takes place months before the planning obtaining the materials, the remote control, designing it fixing it. this all goes to the premeditation of the murder. this is not done in the spur of the moment. the motives of it for his twisted terrorist cause, the government has a lot of ammunition there. judy clarke will be arguing
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better than this weasael deserves, but that's our system. >> if judy clarke is successful, dzhokhar will spend the rest of his life in the florence colorado super max, which has been called the clean version of hell. can you give the folks an insight into what it is like to life there? >> the oklahoma city bombing, nichols asked to be put to death because of the conditions that they're in. 23 hours a day inside a cell no contact with others. nothing to do except stare at a wall and think about the crimes you have committed and the lives that you have impacted so it is just a very very difficult
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place to be and many people would argue that it is a crime worse than death. >> thank you both for your insights and reporting on this case with us this hour. dzhokhar tsarnaev found guilty on 30 counts in the boston marathon bombing. that's it for "the cycle." we end our broadcast with some new footage of a mother whose children's limbs were taken off during the attack. >> for myself i want to see the death penalty. >> you could live with that? >> i could. >> do you think that would mean justice? >> that would be justice for me. so cvs health is creating industry-leading programs and tools that help people stay on medicines as their doctors prescribed. it could help save tens of thousands of lives every year.
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we are following breaking news this hour. nearly two years after the boston marathon bombing, 21-year-old dzhokhar tsarnaev has been found guilty of crimes that left four dead and over 260 wounded. the jury returned with its verdict. he was found guilty on all 30 counts for his involvement in the 2013 bombings. 17 of those counts carry the death penalty, including conspiracy and using a weapon of mass destruction. >> i would have been more frustrated if he had shown it because throughout this whole thing he's been -- to use my word --

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