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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  April 20, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT

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deserved the death penalty in this country, it's certainly dzhokar tsarnaev. yet, these people here even the richard family they don't want to see the death penalty. the death penalty. the other couple patrick downs and jessica penske made a similar plea to the boston globe. there is a lot of mixed feelings here for sure. >> thank you very much. i really appreciate it. "chris haiz "yes" is up next. tonight on "all in." saddam hussein's men plot to retake isis. a plot on the national origins of the islamic state. and reporter judith miller on the deception that led america to war. then ted cruz has the konch.
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>> the next ten months will be a dangerous time. it's going to be like "lord of the flies." and anthony weaner on hillary clinton's return to the granite state today. >> we're back into the political season. >> reporter: plus amazing police restraint caught on tape. >> no man, i'm not going to do it. >> and the fbi makes a claim about using science. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. a bombshell report reveals just how much the new war in iraq is the same as the old war in iraq, as isis releases new video claiming to show a massacre of ethiopian christians, supposed proof of the group's expansive reach. and more charges against american residents conspiring to help isis. the german newspaper's report shows stunning evidence that the rise was planned and engineered
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by the former baathist regime in an effort to restore the sunni rule that was ended by the american invasion in 2003. we knew before about the link of the -- diagnose der spiegel" says it has a former colonel mapping out a command structure for the group and strategy for infiltrating new territory under the cover of religious institutions using a complex network of spies. quote -- what he put on paper page by page was carefully outlined boxes for individual responsibilities was nothing less than a blueprint for a takeover. there's not a manifesto of faith, but a technically precise plan for the regime.
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several of the sage ones who served in that regime. it may be what draws teenage girls from london to syria and upholds the widely held perception that isis has a dire need to the west. the newspaper suggests that it's the same people and the occurrence campaign is just the outgrowth of what we started back in 2003. i'm joined by judith miller former reporter for "new york times" has blamed for a helping to build the case. she writes about the controversial time in "the story. judith miller joins me now. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> when you look at the news out
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of iraq do you feel guilty? i mean, do you feel like you have a piece of that? that you own in some deep professional or moral sense what's going on there? >> no, i don't feel guilty. i feel that as a reporter i did the very best job i could to disclose to the american people some of the intelligence information that the president and the former vice president got that helped them form their decision to go to war. as the information evolved, i continued to stay with the story. i went to iraq to cover soldiers hunting for the weapons we thought were there -- >> it's the "we" right? who is the "we"? >> yes, the "new york times" and american press who were more or less reporting the exact same story in the lead-up to the war. >> you don't think this is a disaster? >> i never said that. you said that. of course, this is a disaster. isis is a disaster. the iraq war was a disaster. the way in which it was fought was a disaster. and i covered that year after year. i kept going back and reporting on it. >> you don't feel like you played some role in bringing
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that about? >> no. >> you genuinely don't think that? >> no, i don't think so. i relied on the sources who had been right about the buildup of al qaeda, had been right to warn about osama bin laden and his threat to the united states. no one wanted to listen then. they eventually did when the twin towers were attacked. i was relying on the very same sources who had warned me about anthrax and the threat to the united states. >> that's contested. >> no, the fbi has blamed two individuals for it, one of whom conveniently committed suicide, so we can't contest his being charged with it. >> this is what i think is frustrating about watching all of this unfold. you write in your book -- you write, basically saying as a citizen, as a person you favored regime change.
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>> because i had covered iraq since 1976. >> and saddam was brutal, he had done horrible things. >> and his abuse of chemical weapons against his own people. >> do you take away a lesson from this? as we watch essentially former baathist reconstitute themselves, wage this permanent war, as we watch the cascade of effects of regime changes in a place like libya, do you think now -- do you see why people thought regime change was a bad idea there? has it changed your mind about regime change as a following? >> i think regime change, people were very divided even before the war about the wisdom of the invasion units i'm asking you verb did you changed your mind about the idea of regime change? >> no. had i known, however -- >> you had not changed your mind -- >> wait a minute. if he did not have weapons of mass destruction, i would have never favored an invasion. it was only i was persuaded by the intelligence. >> you're operating this role
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and favoring an invasion. >> no, no, i did not favor it in print. others favored it in print. i never did. i'm a reporter. what i was doing was reporting on the intelligence. >> this strikes me as the difficult disingenuous thing to deal with or not disengenuous, maybe it's just the nature of the job. >> it is the nature of the job. >> you thought it was a good idea to get rid of him. >> yes. >> and you're writing these articles, but that feeling had nothing to do with articles that you wrote that ended up being a huge part of supporting the war. >> no. i don't think that president bush and dick cheney decided to go to war because "new york times" and "the washington post" and every paper in the country was reporting the intelligence that they were getting. for the book i interviewed dick gephart, one of many of the democrats -- >> if they were right here, i would be giving them the same question, absolutely. >> but the point is the intelligence is what it was. >> but everybody's got to own it, right? >> i own it. that's why i wrote this book.
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>> the book doesn't own it. the book says -- >> yes. >> it really doesn't. it says my sources were wrong. >> that's right. >> go ask the editor at "rolling stone" about what happens when your source is wrong. >> no, no, that's a very difficult situation. "rolling stone" did not ask the basic questions they needed to ask. we did. >> you're saying that the editors talked to the anonymous sources. did they have any access to them? >> our editors asked -- did they have access to the sources? >> almost all of them. almost all of then were not anonymous. a lot of them were quoted by name. almost every one was quoted by name. i did not write those stories alone. more than half of my stories were written with other colleagues at the "new york times." but look, chris, no one was reporting something
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substantially different about the wmd intelligence. they had no specifics. there was nothing we could work with. >> the only thing specifically was the general thrust of what true. >> and that is accurate. they were accurate but not because -- let me give you an example. when michael gordon and i had just reported that in fact the cia had diverted a shipment of aluminum tubes that no one knew existed, three days before that paper had reported there was no new intelligence. now, you can argue that the intelligence was thin or the intelligence community misunderstood what they had. what you can't argue is that there was no new intelligence. >> part of the problem is there is tons of data, right? so you can't say -- it -- >> not that's available to you and me. >> that's precisely the problem. >> this is what we had to learn, right? there are thousands of individual data points. so the whole problem from an epistemmic standpoint is one can
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truthfully report intelligence that totally paints the wrong picture about what is happening, and that continues to be the case in national security reporting long after judith miller has left the "new york times". >> that's not what happened here. the intelligence community, men and women of good faith, did the best they could, but they were terribly wrong. what should bother all of us, i think, is that 16 intelligence agencies, which are paid billions of dollars to get it right got it wrong, and may be getting it wrong today. >> let's remember where the horse was and where the cart was, okay? the intelligence community was being dragged behind a vision of regime change that of course was -- >> what do you mean dragged behind? >> we know all of the trips that the vice president made to the cia, we know for a fact that the policy of regime change, wolfowitz himself said quote, wmd was the thing we could all agree on.
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wait, wait. let's just remember, you want to talk about the intelligence, which has been well litigated. >> so has this issue of pressure and distorted intelligence. rob silverman, the senate select committee on intelligence, you can roll your eyes but these were bipartisan reports that looked at that issue and they didn't find any pressure on analysts. they got it wrong. >> there are analysts that will tell you to this day they were pressured, that dick cheney came into my office. they didn't say that when they were testifying. >> so what's the lesson here? >> i have people after the fact say i had doubts. my resignation letter was in the desk. >> what is the lesson? >> maybe it's the lesson that colin powell drew in his own book on leadership when he said, where were these doubters when i was giving my speech at the u.n.? >> wasn't it your job to go find them, though? >> we tried the best we could. we never stopped looking. >> i'm quoting from your book. having covered iraq and the
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region for decades, i simply couldn't imagine that saddam would give up such devastating weapons or the ability to make them. to your credit, this is some confirmation bias. the point is -- >> not confirmation bias. >> of course it is. >> it's the conclusion i had reached based on what the intelligence analysts and experts were telling me. i had worked with international inspectors for ten years, they were all saying the same thing -- he's still hiding stuff, we think, with high confidence. >> did judith miller from before this reporting episode learn some things, have different thoughts about reporting -- >> that's why i wrote the book. >> but my question is, are there deeper thoughts about american foreign policy and about war and what the threshold for war should be. >> when i left anbar province in 2010, what you were just showing on the screen there, chris, anbar province the murder rate
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there was lower than in chicago. i think that the iraq that i left after covering those soldiers who were there stabilizing the place, they were pretty confident that we had -- they had succeeded in their goal. >> they were wrong. >> because we left. >> no, because -- here's why, because the people who live in anbar are going to win in the end, right? the people who live in anbar and who want to fight for anbar will win in the end. >> but the point is they weren't fighting as long as we were there. >> how long should we stay in iraq? >> you know, we're still in germany and italy and japan. >> 40, 50 years? >> but not as combat soldiers. to provide support to a government that has support. when the iraqi sunnis stop -- stopped supporting malaki that's when isis regained a hold. i know very well these were baathists. that's what the soldiers were worried about. that's what i went on covering. the sin in journalism is not a
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wrong story. it's not going back to correct a wrong story. that's what i've tried to do both in my journalism and in this book. >> thank you very much. i appreciate you coming on. congressman barbara lee will be with me when we return. ...this isn't that car. the first and only car with direct adaptive steering. ♪ the 328 horsepower q50 from infiniti.
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[♪] joining me now barbara lee. congressman who knows a thing or two about remaining skeptical about military intervention. as you see this new report from "der spiegel" and my exchange there about what's going on in iraq, what lessons do you draw in informing the way you are thinking about conducting your role in congress as we think about the possible authorization of the use of military force, for the ongoing campaign against isis in iraq, possible intervention in other places, et cetera? >> i think what's important is first we always need to recognize that a military solution is not the only option, and give equal weight to other options and alternatives at that time, but going -- >> let me stop you there for a
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second. does washington do that? is the conversation on capitol hill any less dominated by military solutions now than it was 12 years ago? >> i think we're building that type of critical mass on capitol hill. when you look at members of congress and the progressive caucus, the tri-caucus, black caucus and democratic caucus, and when you look at the vote as it relates to the resolution authorizing use of force against iraq you will see -- i believe it was 132 or 133 members of congress mostly democrats who voted against that authorization, but i think what's important as it relates to iraq and the weapons of mass destruction and the presentation of quote, the intelligence data if you remember correctly, the u.n. was conducting an inspections process, and during that period i was on the foreign affairs committee when the bush administration decided to use force and go to war. i offered an amendment which, of course, the committee did not pass, but i took it to what we
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call the rules committee, got a rule and brought it to the floor. what that resolution said was, look, let the inspections process continue -- >> and they were coming back and saying, we're not finding anything. >> yeah let's determine if there are weapons of mass destruction. i got that amendment to the floor. guess what? i got 72 votes for it. we need 218 just to get it passed. so i share that because we have to remember the history that there were alternatives. we could have waited to determine whether or not the intelligence was accurate and factual. >> so let me ask you this. you're in a congress right now that said, oh we need the president, we need an authorization for use of military force. and basically, as far as i can tell, nobody is really doing much about it. but as soon as the president strikes his preliminary deal with iran, congress is rushing to have a vote to say whether up or down. what do you make of that? >> i believe, first of all, as it relaltstes to the president, i just have to say i think he's doing a phenomenal job just trying to make sure there are no
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nuclear weapons in iran and he addresses that in the deal. and, in fact we have not authorized the use of force in terms of iraq once again and what's taking place in the middle east as it relates to isis and iraq and the whole nine yards. and we need to do that. we need to debate and we need to decide whether or not we're going to authorize that war which began last august okay? >> yes. >> secondly that's the contradiction and the hipocrisy in the congress. there is no way the congress should undermine what i think is a diplomatic path that could lead to a non-fluke hifnon-nuclear iran. >> you should want to say on peace and war, not just one, which is not the way it's working in congress. congresswoman barbara lee, thank you for being with us. >> thank you. good to be here. it's on many republicans, one democrat on hillary in new
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can look like this. and feel like this. dreamwalk. the next 20 months are going to be like "lord of the flies." but let me tell you something, january 2017 is coming. >> senator ted cruz managed to use three distinct colorful violent phrases to describe the
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election season. the outbreak of savagery when a group of boys were stranded on an island in "lord of the flies" and the fantasy show "game of thrones" with the comment, january 17 is coming and the offstated warning, winter is coming. the battle this year is not all that different from "game of thrones," but hopefully with a lot less bloodshed. there will be a lot of people battling for power. think about what played out in new hampshire just 200 miles or so from the wall where 18 different presidential hopefuls gathered to make their play for the throne. for now they place their rhetorical speeches on another. >> when hillary clinton travels, there is going to be need to be two planes one for her and her entourage and one for her baggage. >> this is something out of
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north korea. >> hillary clinton jokes aren't going to do the job much longer. the gop presidential race is expected to be perhaps the most crowd the and contested in history. and just like "the game of thrones" they'll have to be battling each other head on. and they'll be doing it in an environment where the idle steps will be seen as a battle of betrayal. walker said, what makes us arguably the greatest nation in history. arguably? michael steal, former chair of the republican national committee, both of these gentlemen contestants in our epic fantasy draft show. before we get into substance, we're going to play a game. you guys ready? >> always. >> michael, you ready? >> i'm ready. >> i think we got 18 candidates
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who are in new hampshire this weekend. i'm going to go back and forth between the two of you and see if you can name every one. are you ready? >> oh gosh. >> oh geez. >> get nervous. i'm going to start with you, sam. >> well jeb bush. >> jeb bush done. michael. >> mark oe rubio. >> done. >> chris christie. >> michael. >> bob early. >> markco rubio. >> ted cruz. >> michael steele? >> rand paul. >> michael? >> john casek. >> lindsay graham. >> scott walker. >> scott walker correct. yes. boom. >> bolton. >> yes. michael steele?
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>> bolton scott walker. hmm. >> how about a former new york governor? >> oh, otherh, yes pataki. >> long island congressman. >> peter king. >> former texas governor michael steele. >> perry. >> yes. there's still more. look at this. >> i'll do another one. >> yes. >> bobby jindal. >> yes, bobby jindal. we got one, two, three more. >> i know that ben carson couldn't make it. >> a man who won't run under any circumstances but says he will. >> huckabee. >> nice. him, too. but there's another one won't run but says he will. national laughingstock. >> haven't we talked about him already? >> donald trump. and jim gilmore. now that that's out of the way, michael, this is my favorite headline of the day. scott walker apparently is the pick of the koch brothers who is
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the scoop off the record "behind closed doors." they say they want him to be the candidate. how important is that? >> it's huge. and, in fact i have heard it from a number of circles far removed from the koch brothers that scott walker has a lot of energy. he is i think, for a lot of the establishment types and conservatives, the fallback. he's the guy that's you know is going to take care of the bush problem with jeb and help them sort of segue beyond you know, the marco rubios and others who don't necessarily have the presidential gravitz at this point. you and i have talked about this. i think the race changes dramatically when the republican governors get in. you've seen the lob that chris christie places on security. and the donors and the political class like that.
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>> the scott walker thing is really no surprise. i think the last time we were on together, it was the day the koch brothers announced they were going to dump $900 million into this election. six, eight years ago, the americans -- the afp and scott walker's campaign were virtually indistinguishable. in fact, there is still investigation going on about that in wisconsin. so this is no surprise. >> the big question to me and we were having this debate earlier today, right? there is this sense about -- in the new citizens united era, right, you can last much deeper than you used to. the question is have the rules changed? >> wait you see it now, everybody is pairing up with their billionaires. when chris christie goes out and talks about cutting social security, he's talking to one person in america, and his name is pete peterson. he's trying to get his billionaire so he can go through the race. you have marco rubio has his billionaire now, this guy in
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florida who used to sell cars. scott walker has his billionaire. jeb bush has his minions. what's fascinating about it two things that's impossible for jeb bush to run away from immigration -- >> common core. >> common core he's already done his backflip on. i'm talking about immigration, the general overall notion of climate change. there is no idealogical difference between any of these candidates. there's more idealogical difference in "the game of thrones." >> that's a good point, michael. the space people are trying to carve out is going to largely be identity rhetorical as opposed to substantive, although maybe as we go down the debate process, you see people actually start to stake out distinctive positions. >> that is very true and you see where we are already before this thing really takes off when you have you know scott walker saying the united states is arguably the greatest nation and they're going to parse that
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you know. this is what you're talking about. because the space, the idealogical space between jeb bush and ted cruz is not as wide as a lot of people pretend it is -- >> thank you. >> -- they are going to carve as hard as they can, and sam invite, they start with the billionaires because the billionaires fund it. it's sad that we're at this point that these folks are having the conversation first with people who are going to write checks rather than with the american people who are actually the ones who are going to vote them in. >> you know in greek democratic theory, they always say, and i'll translate from the original greek, start with the billionaire and work out. >> sam cedar, michael steele who are in arguably two of the greatest pundits in history, thank you both. >> we'll take it and go. it feels like the campaign season is really in full swing now as hillary clinton campaigns with a baby in new hampshire. anthony weaniner will be here with
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believe it or not, it is only day 9 of hillary clinton's presidential bid and today her van ran into familiar territory. the granite state is home to the first primary of the election season and the place where she pulled out her victory in the last presidential run in 2008. today they got the trip campaigning first last week in iowa. in addition there were small group gatherings and talk of
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actual substance. while major pullouts are not expected hillary clinton talked about everything from insurance coverage to mental health to challenges of drug abuse. the campaign found itself fielding or in most cases not fielding questions surrounding an upcoming book from a conservative author titled "clinton cash." donations were made to the clinton campaign that asserts that foreign entities who made payments to the clinton foundation and to mr. clinton through high speaking fees received favors from the state department in return. >> reporter: the campaign says the example cited a free trade agreement for columbia and reconstruction for haiti were obama priorities not clinton's. >> she tried to brush off the bubbling controversy. >> we're back into the political season, and therefore, we will be subjected to all kinds of
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distraction and attacks, and i'm ready for that. i know that that comes, unfortunately, with the territory. >> joining me now, anthony weiner also married to one of hillary clinton's former top aides. welcome to the show. >> thank you. >> i thought this tweet was fascinating. this is byron york a conservative writer. covering the event today, he said journalists tweeting that hillary new hampshire event is boring. a lot of people have been drawing that parallel when she drew the listening tour in new york. >> you actually learn as a candidate a great deal when you go out and just talk to citizens like the old-fashioned way. when you're hillary clinton that's really hard to do. i think this is really just her having a very comfortable level with citizens she's talking to
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now. >> stop there for a second. i think there's two ways to interpret this. okay, the strategy is to show her in small environments humble, et cetera. you're saying you actually think there is some genuine desire to talk to people because it will make you a better candidate. >> you know every campaign has these moments where a candidate references something, a joe the plumber moment references something that happened on the campaign trail that struck them. we have a cynical notion in our world. oh, that's phony, that's someone who created the idea and this just filled that ideal. in fact, as a candidate, particularly one like hillary who has been off for so long -- by wait,the way, she's the one that kind of came up with this idea. there is a tendency we do it for a living guys like us the kind of viewpoint we should have of this. the candidate is going to get better, and the citizens who are watching the conversation go on they connect to it because they
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are like i would like to ask the candidate this. >> there was a show on "jerry seinfeld seinfeld" and he would go to the comedy cellar on a random night and do comedy because when you are a comedian the way you hone your craft is feedback of people, and if you are a politician, you cannot be a good politician in the absence of feedback with voters. >> right. the other thing is you really learn the language people are speaking, the way they refer to their challenges, the way they refer to the issues that are out there. you get better at it. and i know there is this tendency particularly with hillary, to say, oh she's done it all before. but let's remember something. a lot of people don't remember from 2008 don't know the story of her upbringing, don't know the story of how she's been committed to a lot of these things, so it kind of works both ways. not only is she getting a chance to listen to citizens talk about their concerns but she's also saying something else. i'm taking nothing for granted in iowa nothing for granted in
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new hampshire, i'm doing the very best i can to have these conversations with cameras around them, but all of that being said i think it's really helping her out. >> martin mallard may be getting in the race. he's trying to carve a space to hillary's left. de blasio, i think there's been a pseudo controversy that he's going to endorse her, this notion that he is somehow the spokesperson for some wing of the party that hillary needs to audition for i think, is wrong and not helpful. she was working on a progressive vision of health care when bill de blasio was still smoking pot at nyu or wherever he went. >> it's kind of like he's outspoken outspoken. he's family. you don't ask a family member to audition.
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i think there is a mythology that hillary has not been there on progressive important issues. the motherlode of issues of our generation might be health care. she bears the battle scars for trying to do national health care first,. and i think there is another thing about this. i love de blasio. he defeated me. a voted for him at the end of the day. i believe this mug probably has more supporters in iowa than bill de blasio does. i think frankly all of us want to watch the campaign unfold, and i honor him for wanting to do that, but -- >> let's talk for a moment just about foreign policy. there is a debate to be had. should we have bombed libya in hillary clinton was secretary of state. at the time we know from reporting she was an advocate for that intervention. libya is a mess right now. in the absence of a primary, there is no way to go for a
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discussion about that. >> first of all, hillary clearly doesn't believe there is going to be absence of a primary. she talks about the primary. her campaign talks about statistics of how difficult it is to win. there's going to be a primary. by the way, she's going to iowa she's going to new hampshire, she's proceeding as if there is. she's only taking campaign money, things like that. i don't begrudge her having a conversation about it i just think on announcement day you don't do this whole thing of i want to see what she has to say. bill de blasio is going to support her, others will support her, but it's going to be because they want it that way. the five-anniversary oil spill that bp wants you to forget. that's next. why combine performance with a conscience? why innovate for a future without accidents? why do any of it?
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tonight we have new video of a police encounter with a double homicide suspect in ohio. it shows police officer jesse kidder exercising incredible restraint while confronting him. >> get your hands up! get your hands up! get your hands up right now! stop right there! i don't want to shoot you, man. get 'em up! [ bleep ] want to shoot you! >> shoot me! >> no man. not gonna do it. >> shoot me! shoot me!
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>> dude back up! back up! get down on the ground! >> officer kidder says his family bought him a body camera after the shooting death of 18-year-old michael brown in ferguson, missouri. he talked to local affiliate wlwt about what was going through his head during the encounter. >> he jumped out and sprinted towards me. i had my firearm already drawn on him, and i told him to put his hand ups up in the air. he was screaming as ef yellinghe was yelling, shoot me, shoot me. he had his arms at his side while he was running at me. he put his hand in his pocket there. so my eyes are watching that hand right now and nothing else. >> knowing backup was on its way, officer kidder kept back-pedaling while the suspect insist the officer kidder shoot
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him. >> i started a dialogue saying i don't want to shoot you, just get on the ground. he wasn't having it. he just kept yelling shoot me. at one point he said shoot me or i'll shoot you. >> at one point the suspect charged. >> he got right in my face before he lost balance. if he had attacked i thought at one point i would have to use deadly force to protect myself. >> just as he backed down there was backup. >> we've shown a number of police encounter videos often showing very disturbing behavior on the part of law enforcement. there's been several police officers both on and off the air who said these videos don't often capture the difficulties of making life and death decisions during interactions with suspects. what this video shows is a testament to that incredibly hard task. it's also an illustration of a situation that could have ended very well easily in death, and didn't and that is a testament to officer kidder's bravery and commitment in bringing a deadly situation to a peaceful
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resolution. the question we're left with is how do we create policing nationwide that produces more peaceful outcomes? so, what brings you to jersey? well, geico's the #1 auto insurer in new jersey, new york and connecticut. so i just came by to say "thanks." #1, huh? that's great. here you go. a little token of appreciation. oh, that's... that's... that's great... now i'd say you probably need a large. geico.
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fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. i care deeply about the gulf. i grew up in louisiana. i went to school here. i've been with bp ever since. today, i lead a team that sets our global safety standards. after the spill we made two commitments. to help the gulf recover and become a safer company. we've worked hard to honor both. bp has spent nearly 28 billion dollars so far to help the gulf economy and environment. and five years of research shows that the gulf is coming back faster than predicted. we've toughened safety standards too. including enhanced training... and 24/7 on shore monitoring of our wells drilling in the gulf. and everyone has the power to stop a job at any time if they consider it unsafe. what happened here five years ago changed us. i'm proud of the progress we've made both in the gulf and inside bp.
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it's more than a network and the cloud. it's reliable uptime. and multi-layered security. it's how you stay connected to each other and to your customers. with centurylink you get advanced technology solutions, including an industry leading broadband network, and cloud and hosting services - all with dedicated responsive support. with centurylink as your trusted technology partner you're free to focus on growing your business. centurylink. your link to what's next. years after the fbi first started reviewing the flawed forensic hair analysis testimony, the bureau has formally acknowledged that before 2000, for over 20 years, almost every single examiner from the fbi laboratories microscopic hair comparison unit gave flawed testimony at almost
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every single trial they participated in. according to "the washington post," of the almost 300 cases the bureau has reviewed so far, examiners overstated the forensic evidence to the prosecution's benefit nearly 95% of the time. quote -- those cases including 32 people who have been sentenced to death, 14 people have already been executed or died in prison and according to the "washington post," the fbi reportedly knew of several troubling cases for years but only told the case's prosecutors their findings. since 2009, five men whose trials included false testimony have been exonerated. every single one of them served 20 to 30 years in prison for rape or murder. i'm joined by peter neufelt, peter, this is just a staggering codirector and co-founder of the innocence project which collaborated with the fbi on its unprecedented review of the cases. this is just a staggering thing to find out. you have this unit in the fbi. you've got local law enforcement around the country collecting hair samples, sending it to the unit the unit sending it back
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their analysis and coming to testify in the trial. >> that's what they would do. >> first of au, what is hair analysis? >> sure. what they're actually doing is, let's say they find a foreign hair lying on a deceased victim. they'll send that off to the fbi, and let's say i'm the suspect. they think it's a head hair. so they're pluck a number of my head hairs and send that to the fbi. the fbi will microscopically compare the hair found on the victim with my hairs to see are they similar or not? >> and then they will send an expert to trial to say, sometimes -- >> the problem was is that sure, they may be similar, but they had no idea how many people would also have similar hair. and so -- >> they're literally sitting in a lab going like this thing looks like this thing. >> they are under the microscope, but that's not the biggest problem. the biggest problem is all they could say is two people had similar hair. instead what they would say is the chances of the hair coming from anyone else are 1 in
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10,000. >> based on -- >> based on nothing. numbers taken out of the hip pocket. >> really? that bad? >> that bad. >> in other words, other than dna where we have these vast databases there to give a number, there were no databases for hair at all. they did this for 25, 35 years, not only did they do it without any databases, but supervisors and management let them do it. it went unchecked. lawyers didn't catch it. prosecutors let it happen, judges didn't care. everybody in the criminal justice system was at fault. you mentioned only five people who have already been exonerated. in fact there's another 70 people who have been exonerated with hair testing given by state analysts who were trained by the fbi. >> the question is, is this a salvageable method? >> the method it can be used as a screen as long as you now do dna testing after you do the
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microscopic review to see if, in fact this is a match and if in fact, it has some probative value. >> so you've got hundreds of cases that are now tainted by this. what do you do? how do you unravel this? >> you may have thousands of cases tainted by it it, okay? fortunately the fbi to their credit and the department of justice to their credit, are very serious about a duty to correct and a duty to notify defendants and defense attorneys of this problem. and they are working hard at it and we are grateful for that, but they haven't done enough to identify the cases. there could be several thousands more cases, but they're not in the computer database, so it's hard for them to find them. once they find them, they write letters to local prosecutors to say, hey, could you find the transcript for us? if they don't answer not much more is done in terms of follow-up. there's already 700 cases in the initial 2500 they looked at where prosecutors simply haven't responded. they can't accept that.
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they have to go out and get the transcripts, review them and they have to right the wrongs. >> and they brought you guys in? it's sort of amazing you're working together. >> we're working together, because we went to them. when there were three quick exonerations in rapid succession a few years ago in washington involving three different nba analysts who testified about hair matches where the dna exonerated them, we looked at the transcripts and in every single case they grossly exaggerated the probative value of the evidence. >> so you went to the fbi and said you have a problem here? >> yes, and they acknowledged the problem, to their credit. they said will you work with us to try and fix it. >> very quickly 20 years from now, what will be the thing we look back on the way we're looking at this? are there other kind of methods being used now that -- >> there are many methods involving pattern evidence impression evidence, trace evidence where they didn't have databases and they made
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probablistic statements that simply had no basis in science. >> this extends -- i think there was an amazing piece about bite marks. >> we've had 24 exonerations involving bite mark >> peter neufeld, thank you. >> my pleasure. >> that is all for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> thanks man. >> the terrorist group isis has released another new very disturbing video showing members beheading and shooting dozens of people. what is different about this latest video is that it appears to combine the home base in iraq and syria with new execution footage which appears to have been very shot far away in the nation of libya. terrorist groups all over the world have pledged allegiance, to isis in recent months but it has not always been clear that that meant there was some sort of operational relationship between isis headq


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