tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC April 30, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
but tonight, it's actually clearing out. >> msnbc reporter tremain lee, good luck tonight and that does it for us now, but our coverage of baltimore and other stories continues now with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, rachel. thank you. the city of baltimore is just about in the next few seconds to enter the third night of the curfew. at the end of what became the most important day yet in the investigation of the death of freddie gray. there are several new developments in the case including the emergence of a new witness who was in the police van with freddie gray and a possible leak from a preliminary autopsy report on the body of freddie gray. we will get into that in detail. but first, let's check on the situation on the street as the curfew now goes into force once again. we're joined by nbc's ron allen. where are you tonight and what's the situation there? >> we're at north and pennsylvania, kind of the epicenter of all this, lawrence
again. it's the hour now and it's unclear exactly what's going to happen out here. there are still a lot of people out in the streets, as you can see around me. there is a very heavy police presence over in that direction. they've blocked off the street there. as you can see there are a lot of people who are milling around, trying to figure out what to do. there have been religious leaders, civic leaders out here for the past hour or so trying to urge people to go home. and some are and some are not. there are a number of people coming back up into this area. they have left and now they seem to be coming back. and overhead you can see there are helicopters circling around and you can't quite make out what they're saying, but they're broadcasting 10:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m., it is not legal to be in public places, you must go home. and -- message is being broadcast constantly and as a
demonstration. every other night here we have to see what people are going to do we have to see how tolerant the police are going to be and we have to see if they're going to try and take a step forward. in previous nights they had blocked off the streets. now the streets are open so people can move and they can move freely. but they're not going home. and that's the concern. will the authorities permit this? will they be patient or will they make a move to try and force people to get out of here? at this point, it's not tense. it's comfortable. but, again, as we've seen in previous nights they have not waited much after 10:00 to try and really make it clear that the law is the law and the people have to get off the streets. we're going to have to see what happens here now. also, i think there's an air of defiance in the air tonight. earlier today, we heard that you know the police were asked point-blank, why don't you stop the curfew because it doesn't seem necessary in many parts of the city. there are business owners there are people who don't live in
this community who want the curfew. and after a few nights it's been effective, it's been quiet and peaceful. but here again, people are being defiance. they're staying out here. so this is why the authorities say they want to keep it in place and they also know in the coming days, friday saturday sunday, there are more demonstrations planned, big demonstrations saturday and sunday for example. whether they materialize or not, we'll have to see. but the authorities are concerned that there's still a lot of activity on the street. there's still pop-up demonstrations. earlier today, there was a crowd of several hundred people that marched from city hall from this part of town. a very volatile situation to watch. we're going to be out here and see what happens over the next few minutes to see whether the authorities back off, whether these people go home or just what happens. lawrence, back to you. >> ron allen, thank you for that report. we're going to keep a camera on the situation there and we'll be following the developments in the street. we'll go back to ron as needed.
there were some big developments until the investigation in the death of freddie gray 2d. the first was a revolution by police that a startlingly brief news conference this morning that the van transporting freddie gray after he was arrested made an additional stop that no police officer involved in the case had reported to police investigators. >> the second stop has been revealed to us during the course of our investigation and was previously unknown to us. we discovered this third stop based on our thorough comprehensive and ongoing review of all cctv cameras and, in fact, this new stop has been -- was discovered from a privately owned camera. >> that dramatic revelation was quickly over-shadowed by other developments, including the most important witness in the case to emerge so far. the man who was the other prisoner in the back of the van with freddie gray.
what he had to say contradicted a washington post report about him last night. and late in the day today, a report from wjla tv citing anonymous sources saying the medical examiner found gray's catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van apparently breaking his neck a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of that van. joining us now is a former medical examiner and forensic pathologist. he is a medical doctor and an attorney. also joining us msnbc's joy reid. dr. weck i want to go over some of the new information that's developed as the day wore on today. i know you've already dealt with the issue, which we will come back to later of last night's report by "the washington post" indicating that the police had information that in effect freddie gray did this to
himself, did it intentionally in the back of the van to true to injure himself in the back of the van and he succeeded. that has been overtaken today. now, this report by wjla television in which it reports using anonymous law enforcement sources, multiple law enforcement sources, that the police believe that they have found no evidence that the fatal injuries were caused during the videotaped arrest. we'll take a look at that videotape in the arrest as we discuss this. the sources also were briefed on the medical examiner's findings and those sources characterize those medical findings being that freddie gray's catastrophic injury was caused when he was slammed into the back of the police transport van, apparently breaking his neck a head injury he sustained, as i said matches a bolt from the back of the van.
one other element of the report the last line identity says that the officer driving the van has yet to give a statement to authorities. dr. wecht, what do you make of this new information, this bit of a leak possible leak from the medical examiner? i know it hard to envision a situation in which freddie gray voluntarily would have hurled himself against the inside of the van such as to have produced injuries of this magnitude and severity. you have the basic formula as energy equalling one half mass times velocity squared, velocity obviously being the key factor. how do you get up the velocity six, eight feet whatever it is
in the van such as to hurl yourself to produce an injury of that mag attitude. number two, let's go back psychologically. nobody, except someone who is paranoid schizophrenic with dilution dilutions, somebody suffering from what lugegenic agents like lsd would ever do such a thing. now then let's talk about the injury. this is new to me about his body striking a bolt. we've been told that three vertebrae were fractured. a bolt to produce three fractures from that point of impact, i can't envision this. i'd like to see that bolt. number two, if the impact is so great against that bolt then there has to be some significant
trauma to the back. in other words, a laceration a significant contusion, which is manifested externally on the skin and then the underlying subcutaneous tissue. keep in mind a little basic anatomy here. the spinal cord is contained within the bone. you have the vertebral body of each vertebrae in front of you and you have the spinous process behind you and you have lateral or transverse processes to the side. so the cord is protected by bone. in order for the cord to undergo severance of 80%, not only do you have a fracture but you've got severe displacement of the fracture. and i have not seen that kind of vertebral fracture except in high speed motor vehicular collisions or people falling from high -- a high ediface or
so on. to hurl yourself against the van and to produce suispontae, i mean, right then and there, to i still believe -- i'd like to see the autopsy report but if you correlate the whole business going back to his being taken into the van, it looked to me like he was being held up he was not able to walk at all or certainly not able to stand on his feet. now you have him in the van. he's not able to steady himself on his feet. there are no handles, which is not an airport row seat or theater. the van is moving and they're telling us too, by the way, that the van never sped and there were never -- there was never any sudden violent lunching or angular turns, stopping or so on. how do you get the body moving with that kind of velocity if
the van is just moving comfortably with those four or five stops? no, i'm sorry, this is not playing out for me as i envision vertebral fractions and a 25-year-old man with bones not an 85-year-old woman with brittle bones of osteoporosis. >> doctor we have two different leaks here now. we have "the washington post" leak last night which definitely carried the suggestion in a police report according to the source, and this is the characterization used in "the washington post" that eddie gray, quote, was intentionally trying to injure himself. that notion of intentionally trying to injure himself is absent in today's leak about the autopsy report. so this leak about the autopsy report is neutral as to how the -- this injury occurred but it does insist this leak from
the medical examiner if it is truly from the medical examiner does insist that the injuries occurred inside the van. i'm going to just read it one more time. the forces said the medical examiner found gray's catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van apparently breaking his neck. a head injury he sustained matches a point in the back of the van. doctor to go back to what you just said what i'm hearing from you is you find it impossible that he could have self-inflicted this way and then given what you know about the movement of the van and the speed of the van it would be impossible for it to happen accidentally? >> unless the van was moving with some speed and the van made a sudden stop you can just picture this think of a
whiplash injury. >> doctor, can you hold that thought there. we're going to go to the street in baltimore to get a report. we're going to come back on this. i want to go to joy reid who is on the streets in baltimore right now. joy, what's the situation there? >> so lawrence as you know we are now into the curfew, the curfew period and there was sort of behind me there was a pretty intense conversation happened that mofld the media and some people who have still decided not to go home. then we saw the police line form. they have been posted up across the street. they hadn't been moving. then they just came into the street a fooew seconds ago and they formed this line across. you have media and the view of the protesters facing them off. i'm not sure what prompted this movement of police officers. they've been stoic, off the to the side the entire night. we do have as we did last night, a group of people who are being persistent about not going
home. it's not a large number of people. there are more media out here than there are people who are still out and not going home and defying the curfew. but the atmosphere is darker and angrier because people were talking to and confronting a couple of different officials. you have the local officer who is in charge of basically community relations come out earlier and try to talk to the crowd, had intense conversations with people where they were disbelieving what he was telling them about the process. i'm going to ask tony just if he can swing over this way. you now have a group of some of these marchers that are deciding they don't want to go. they're marching in that direction. they're not going into the police line. you had elijah cummings and then the local state senator coming out talking to people trying to explain the process, elijah cummings voiing there would be justice for freddie gray telling people he would do all he could to ensure the
department of justice process, explaining what attorney general loretta lynch told him and other people in a meeting today. a lot of work going on as public officials were trying to explain to people and you were talking earlier about some of the leaks coming out of the police department. i think that is exacerbating tensions. there were people in the crowd that i was standing in earlier who were saying why are they saying freddie gray did it to himself? that is what people are reacting to. they're angry because they believe police are trying to blame freddie gray for his own death and because they disbelieve the process. the police line is moving. they are moving forward. we're going to get out of the way. the police line is moving forward now toward those remaining protesters that have decided not to go. >> move back. move back. >> you can hear them chanting most of back. >> it's the police officers that
are saying move back? >> it is the police officers who are saying move back as they move forward. last night, laurps when the police officers did form a similar line they didn't do this part of it. they didn't actually advance. they just stayed where they were. tonight the police commissioner is out here. i think that is him that just walked by. but you have a real show of the police forces brass, the people in white are captains and above. so you can see that they're out here in force and at this point, they're now confronting the line of remaining protesters that are just standing in front of them. they're just facing each other off. that is what happened last night. but last night, this didn't happen, the part about the police officers moving forward chanting move back. so it's just sort of a standoff right now. nobody seems to be moving. and i think on the other side i don't know if you can see past this line. you have two people that are moving -- >> joy, we're going to try to go to ron allen who is on the other side of the line and see what he
can pick up. ron allen, what are you seeing? >> well, lawrence i'm on the opposite side of the intersection where joy is. she is over there and we are over here. and you can see it's -- frankly, it's mostly a lot of media, but there are still, in this direction, you can see there are people who are trying to tell people to go home. >> why are you guys agitating the officers? media, media, media -- >> there's a lot of concerns citizens out here. there are a lot of people trying to get people to go home. but there are still some people who are hanging on. in previous nights we've seen the authority as the line of police do this and then move slowly forward five, ten feet at a time. here they come. here is another move. what we hope doesn't happen is that the crowd doesn't do anything to provote the police. the previous nights have been
people who have been throwing bottles, plastic bottles, rocks, other things and they've retaliated back and forth. and that is what we're hoping doesn't happen. and behind the police line there are some very heavy vehicles. in previous nights the national guard has come up here moved in behind the police. once they've cleared the square to kind of stabilize things. but the bottom line is that the police here are going to enforce the curfew. they're not going to just stand there, i don't think, while people defy them essentially. it's just the way it's been every night. every night, though there have been a number of arrests but there's not been a lot of violence. the hope is that this will all sort of play itself out as it has, step by step. but the police right now are making their point.
i would imagine in the next few minutes you're going to see them move forward again. and here you can see even in the crowd, come with me here a little bit there are some people who are being very defiant. there's some arguing going back and forth. people who live in the community who -- some want to go home some want to stay and make a point. i've talked to a number of religious leaders out here a number of activists. they're determined to try and keep the peace. it's a fragile situation. we don't know what's going to happen because there are people here who are very angry, who are determined to make a point that these are their streets and that they can't be moved. we'll have to watch this very closely. but for now, again, a lot of media. and the cops are trying to get the streets clear. >> ron, we're going to go over to the other side of the police line to joy reid to see what she's picking up. we just heard from ron allen.
we're now 19 minutes into the curfew. at this point on the first night, which is when it started to get tense. but there were many more people out there on that first night than they are now. on the second night, less. the police did allow for a grace period. it took 45 minutes before people -- it was around 10:45 before we got to the point where people really did start to disappear. >> yeah. and i'll tell you, there are a lot more police out here tonight and there are a lot fewer people out here defying the curfew. behind the line of police that we saw first, there were a group of sheriffs that came out of these vehicles that are here. and then i'm looking down the block, lawrence and there's another line of police that are back there and another line of vehicles that have not advanced yet. >> turn around and see that
movement behind you. >> there's movement. and then down the block, there's going to be another wave of them coming because there's a whole line of police that are further back. the vehicles are about to get movement to. they're advancing, lawrence. >> from the helicopter, we see -- >> and you can hear -- go ahead, joy. >> and you can hear the chanting. and i think it's partly chanting but partly officers saying move back. so as they advance, they chant move back, move back. there are a lot of police officers out here. those vehicles that were behind them are now slowly advancing, too. and these look like military vehicles. it's really incredible to see this in an american city. now the next line which is a small group of police officers is advancing to join b that line of police officers. the police commissioner is out here. i tried to yell to see to see if he could talk to me. he was not interested in talking to me. at least on camera.
the police vehicles are moving too. there are more police officers behind them. prince georges county police officers are now backing up those lines of officers and advancing. and al all the way down the block, there's another line of them that could move too, but they're just standing still. it's interesting because the contrast with last night is the fact that there was a darker mood in the crowd, people were angrier, but it's a much smaller crowd that remains after we started seeing those choppers overhead making the announcement to leave the square. >> joy, we have a helicopter shot of what looks like at least one arrest going on two officers have someone in custody. it's hard -- i can't tell exactly where that is, whether it's on pennsylvania or north. but this is -- this looks like a quicker step of tactical decisions being made by the
police tonight than on previous nights. >> yeah absolutely. this is a police department that is intent it is a small number of people but a very determined police force that is confronting them. i couldn't see the arrest because it was on the other side of that line. but these three big vehicles that were here there are guys on top of them. they're in full body armor. the lights were flashing. it's a pretty dramatic display. if they wanted to do a show of force and let people know they mean business i think they have accomplished their mission. >> joy, it's still difficult to estimate how many protesters and curfew violators at this point are out there. pretty much everyone i can make out from the helicopter shot are media people taking pictures of the front line of that police force. >> yeah, yep. one of the sort of -- >> there's not a great deal of difference in the clothing or the appearance of media people versus protesters, the
difference pooem being that many of the media people have cameras or something that identifies them that way. >> yeah. and a lot of the protesters have cameras, too. that makes it complicated because a lot of protesters are taking pictures of the police as well. there were people who were holding signs saying, you know we see you and things like that. so the protesters also have cameras and they're watching the police as much as the police are watching them. but what is really kind of striking is that i didn't see more than a couple dozen, if that protesters who are still here, lawrence. this is significantly smaller number of people. and if you'll recall last night, there was a dust up too, between a couple of the protesters who got into a little bit of a fight. tonight we really haven't seen that. we just saw a lot of intense conversation with public officials and tense conversation with the congressman and with the state senator who represents this area and with a police captain who tried to reason with
the crowd to explain. but people are angry. i will tell you, that is very real. people do not like this process and they do not like those leaks, they don't like the fact that freddie gray seems to be being blamed for his own injuries. >> what about the curfew itself which by all outward appearances appears to be working. but that's easy to say for someone who is not living under that curfew. the people you're talking to are they recognizing the curfew is working or are they chafing at it? >> i mean i talked to one woman who says she gets it they understands why they had to do it the first couple of nights, you this is he but she didn't understand why it was still going on. tonight, the way people are describing the curfew is in a
three-word phrase that i cannot repeat on television. there were a couple of kits riding back and forth on bikes with their faces covered with bandannas and riding up and down in a ostentatious display of the curfew curfew. it is bizarre to be on an american street and see humvees and these giant military-type vehicles. earlier today, we were walking with and looking at one of the protests. the protesters were mostly kids some college kids and younger and some very little kids. they were all chanting we love baltimore, we want peace. on the way by, they passed by a tank a big, giant tank will police sitting up in the sniper's nest of a tank. that's the disproportionate appearance of force that i think people are starting to react to.
>> the baltimore police just tweeted a group of protesters continue to 1/exist and they continue to violate the curfew. we're now watching the police -- >> they're falling back. >> they seem to be falling back. they're falling back now. >> i see shields, i see some face shields going up. i see some body shields being basically dropped from a defensive posture. >> yeah. a lot more casual vibe as the police fall back. they're not even all falling back, sort of backing up and turn walking away. the police are heading back and this exercise appears to be over. we're trying to make sure they don't run us over. they're coming right at us at this point. >> we're going to go over to ron
allen. ron allen, the police seem to be moving back. what does it look like from where you are? >> they seem to be satisfied, lawrence. there were a couple of scouts if you will, who went out and looked at who was here in the streets. and i think that they are satisfied that it is mostly quote/unquote, media people and that's why they moved back across the intersection, as you can see. and in talking to the police in 2015 now, there's a lot of confusion about who is media, quote/unquote and who is not. we heard the same thing from them in ferguson months ago. so many people have cameras, so many people have a website or a blog or whatever. and it's hard to know who is quote/unquote media and who is not. that is a real issue here tonight. again, listen. [ indiscernible ].
>> okay. they're saying they're going to open the street now and they want you on the sidewalk. let's go over here on the sidewalk. let's go on the sidewalk out of the way because i want the street to be open for track. and traffic. and that's the big thing. emergency vehicles need to get through here. that i think is a real test of whether there are protesters out here or not. lr not a lot of people here now, karen. there are basically a lot of people out here trying to record this sxp it's become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy or whatever the metaphor is but the bottom line is what happened here tonight is a media and not a quote/unquote protest event. that's why the police have moved back. the streets are going to be open and we'll see what happens. there's been no violence. i have not seen anything flying through the air. i've not seen any arrests. i don't know what else is
happening. anywhere else in baltimore. but i don't suspect there are standoffs like this in many of the parts of the city anywhere.but i don't suspect there are standoffs like this in many of the parts of the city anywhere.altimore. but i don't suspect there are standoffs like this in many of the parts of the city anywhere. >> last night we were driving around in penn station and businesses were closed various places that would be open at night, people were frustrated. that is why there's a lot of concern about whether the curfew needs to go on. this is the only place where this is happening, people want to move on from this. back to you. >> thank you, ron allen, for that report. it is now 30 minutes into the night of this curfew in what we have seen as a tactical move by the police which is now apparently simply to make sure that that intersection can be opened to traffic. that would only be at this hour in the curfew but that seems to be what that movement by police
was about. simply clearing the intersection. we're going to take a break and be back with more on the developments and the investigation of the death of freddie gray. sunday dinners at my house... it's a full day for me, and i love it. but when i started having back pain my sister had to come help. i don't like asking for help. i took tylenol but i had to take six pills to get through the day. so my daughter brought over some aleve. it's just two pills, all day! and now, i'm back! aleve. two pills. all day strong, all day long. and for a good night's rest, try aleve pm for a better am.
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coverage of what was happening in the streets there you made the point that you believe it's impossible for freddie gray to have self-inflicted the broken neck in the back of the van. and we were addressing the question of was there any way it could have happened accidentally in the back of the van. >> yes. accidentally if there was significant velocity produced by the moving vehicle with some kind of sudden stopping to hurl mr. gray's body against the side of the van. i just learned now from you tonight that the medical examiner says that the head struck a bolt and he found an injury there. okay. now, that certainly then produces a possibility, the head coming in and causing the kind of hyperextension hyper fection
injury that could crack three vertebrae vertebrae. but also remember, we're not talking about linear nondisplaced fractures. we're talking about at least one of those fractures being displaced significantly so as to cut into the spinal cord. that's a movement of some distance and a movement of a significant nature. you company get that in my opinion, with mr. gray standing and throwing himself into the side of the van, the back door whatever. and this is not a man who has now been picked up after committing some heinous crime for which he will suffer a great punishment and be markedly embarrassed. whatever the crime was, and we'll learn about that more too, all of the sudden he decides, i can't live any more i've been arrested by a cop.
no, no, i don't buy that. >> doctor one final question here. jane miller of on nbc affiliate in baltimore has had clearly the best sources all the way through, she has just tweeted that the -- she has information that the injury may have occurred within 14 minutes of being in the van. is there something that the medical examiner would have been able to use to determine when that injury would have occurred with that kind of precision? >> if mr. gray had died immediately, then one would have ascertained things from a microscopic examination based upon the cells and the hemorrhage. however, mr. gray was operated upon and then died several days later. so no i do not understand how the medical examiner could make a decision with that kind of precision and that kind of time
frame. now, there is information that he would have obtained from the surgeons based upon what they found. but they were in there operating and not direct collecting evidence from a microskropic examination such as we do in forensic pathology. how he came to determine that it was in that 14 minutes, that is a sequel to his mind having been made up, and he may be correct, that the injury occurred in that time period the movement of the vehicle of 14 minutes. so if that's the basis, then that is you know a deductive reasoning working backwards. >> dr. wecht, thank you so much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we're now joined by paul wolf and doug gansber. doug to go to what jane miller is now reporting, which is she
has source information that the injury may have occurred within 14 minutes of being in the van. that makes it impossible for the other person who was brought into that van to have witnessed that, so he wouldn't -- because he didn't get in the van until the last five minutes, according to information we have. and i want to stress that jane miller's reporting does not suggest that comes from the medical examiner. it's entirely possible that that comes from some other witness, some other law enforcement witness who was present. isn't that who that is likely to come from? >> yeah. and jane is obviously the scoop reporter in baltimore and gets great information. the problem with this whole deal is when you get piecemeal, rumors piecemeal, unsubstantiated, quote/unquote facts, you get preposterous theories that freddie gray got in the van and tried to kill himself by breaking his spine. it's so silly it shouldn't even
be discussed. yet it is. and that is the news today. what we really need to do is let the medical examiners, let the investigation take place, let the prosecution look at it and then we'll know what happened with freddie gray. in the meantime what we're seeing is people out on the streets rioting in baltimore and then philadelphia and places like cincinnati who don't even know anything about freddie gray, which is sort of a bigger problem and an issue in my view is all about unequal access to opportunity in some of the inner-cities in america. the same type of schools to jobs and that kind of thing. >> paul, what about the point that in the wjla story today that says the officer driving the van has yet to give a statement? >> well lawrence most of this investigation has been kept
under secret. i agree with doug, when information comes out peace mealiecemeal it doesn't bring a lot of confidence to the people. the investigation is now in the state's attorney. it is her responsibility as the elected state's attorney to bring justice to the people of baltimore. that's what we hope she will do. i don't want to spec laig late on what one piece of evidence may mean or one other piece of evidence may mean. this is the responsibility of the state eeps tourn now that the information is in her hand to bring justice so that the people of baltimore will be serve dollars and that the system is fair. we in the public defender's office have represented in the last two days over 250 people more than 100 of those individuals were held for more
than 24 hours, some as long as 48 hours in the central booking facility. during that time, they weren't provided charges, they weren't given attorneys, they weren't given an initial appearance for which they're entitled. all of that justice has been suspended in baltimore as a result of this -- the police action. so in addition to having -- >> the -- we're going to have to take a -- we're going to have to take a break. sorry. we're going to have to take a break right here. we are going to come back to this. sorry. stay with us. we're going toe be right back. doers. they don't worry if something's possible. they just do it. at sears optical, we're committed to bringing them eyewear that works as hard as they do. right now, save up to $200 on eyeglasses. quality eyewear for doers.
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we're back discussing the legal developments in the death of freddie gray. fred gansler, i want to go back with you on the question of the officer driving the van has yet to give a statement according to one report today and as the information has been developing today, the focus is getting closer and closer and closer on the officer driving the van. as there seems to be more leaks
coming out suggesting that the injury occurred inside the van. we just heard distinguished medical examiner cyril wecht how that could have happened inside a van, the driver would have to have been pretty reckless. >> under the statute of the law of maryland, there's a bill of rights that allows the police officer ten days after the incident before they have to come forward and give a statement. that officer will in fact be giving a statement at some point in the very near future. the question i think, as we look at the case is here you have a guy who is -- i don't think anybody has made -- that there's a suspicion that he makes the stop. he doesn't have the switch blade so there's probable cause for the arrest. something happens between the time he gets into the van to the time he gets out of the van that his spine is severed. clearly, this is a man with 10 convictiones and 12 arrests and
this is not somebody who is unused to this situation. he didn't try to kill himself. so he died as a result of what happened in that van. at this point, the state's attorney will conduct that investigation. she'll talk to that officer and the other officers. all the witnesses will be reinterviewed. they'll have to make a decision what to charge, if anything, here. no one knows if this is going to be first degree murder second degree murder involuntary man slaughter against the driver or other police officers or no one. >> thank you very much for that. we're now joined by jane miller investigator reporter at our nbc affiliate. jayne, i want to go to what you just tweeted, the idea that the spine injury may have occurred within 14 minutes of being in the van. what's the significance of that? >> so the -- lawrence the police department today released a new stop that the van made.
now the van has made six stops, including the first line in which they first loaded freddie gray. so the new stop comes right after they put the shackles on him. first he's handcuffed put him in the van, then made another stop and put the shackles on. a few memberships after that the driver stopped. that's a really good question. could it be base the driver hears something in the back of the van that makes it sound like something is wrong? because the next thing the driver does, as we know is a couple of minutes later he stops again and this time koms calls for other police officers to come and, quote, check on his prisoner. at that stop we know now from police commanders that they think a call for medics should have been made. so that all suggests that that new stop that could be because the incident in the van has just occurred that may have caused the injury. that's why i credit putting that timeline together thinking hmmm, that is the question i would want to know and it certainly suggests that based on
the driver's behavior. >> and, jayne, i ever never seen a press conference like the one they had in baltimore today to come out there for a couple of minutes to basically say one thing. that is this van made a stop that we did not know about, that no police officers told us about, that we the investigators discovered only by seeing some private video of it. >> look, the van driver is the plain player here because, obviously, he's the one driving. and whether or not there was an intentional act, and that's obviously a key question was it intentional driving in the van to try to make freddie gray roll around in the back of the van. it doesn't have to be that. he's unsecured. he's not seat belted he's shackled it may be enough to throw him off force with enough balance. he's carrying the speed of the van. when the fan stops, he's still
going at that speed. you know that feeling, when you get slammed forward and slammed back. now we know the reports have been turned over at this point. what happens to cause his death could have has happened happens while inside his death. it is that simple and severe injury to his neck and spine. >> jayne wsh when are we going to get a look at the medical examiner's report? >> the medical examiner's report ordinarily is released through the investigation. and sometimes you don't see it until it gets to court because it's a piece of evidence. this case is a little more unusual, so we'll have to see what -- but, you know the only thing we're really waiting for here, and i'm not sure it's going to be a surprised, frankly, is the manner of death.
accidental, homicide? i think based on my reporting on this and the information i've been gathering, i don't know what the manner of death ruling is going to be. but you've got a situation here where he was supposed to be seat belted he wasn't. medics should have been called they weren't. this is looking less away from an accident and more towards a homicide. that does not constitute a crime. homicide is at an. then the crimes had to come in during the criminal investigation. >> jayne, we have to go to break. thank you for joining us tonight and thanks for your extraordinary interview of that other passenger in the van who got in in the last five minutes. we've been so busy with the over breaking news of this hour that we haven't gotten to that yet. thank you very much for joining us. >> thanks laurns. >> we'll be right back. may need. plus it supports physical energy with b vitamins. one a day 50+ so i'm having birthday brunch with my family. when my husband hands me a present.
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>> the protests of the death of freddie gray came to philadelphia tonight. that's a live image of the crowd still on the streets in philadelphia. earlier tonight in philadelphia there was a confrontation with police by some members of this group of protesters that were there. we are joined now by phone by the mayor of philadelphia, michael nutter. mayor nutter, have there been many arrests or any arrests in philadelphia tonight? >> no. as a matter of fact lawrence the overall demonstration was very very peaceful. there was a moment when a couple of the demonstrators tried to get on the interstate highway and we could not allow that because it's too dangerous. two demonstrators were arrested. one was 17 years old, the other was 19 years old.
the 17-year-old has been released. his mom came to pick him up. the 19-year-old is being processed. s those were the only real confrontations this evening or any kind of disruption. other than that, very peaceful march and demonstration in philadelphia. and we do our best to try to protect the demonstrators as they march through the city respect their first amendment rights, but, of course we have also an obligation to make sure that everyone is safe whether they're demonstrators or motorists on the roadway. but we certainly can't loy folks to be on the interstate highway in traffic and they could possibly get injured themselves. >> we're watching images now of that earlier clash with the police. >> yeah. that's right at the ramp. >> it is a shoving match. as we see it from above, it really is just a shoving match. >> yes. and that's -- i think if you go to the broader view, you'll see that that is right in front of
the entrance ramp to what we refer to as 676. that would put you on i-95 which, of course, is a major highway. we can't allow people to be on the roads. it was a lot of pressure to be shoved in but in the end, the 17-year-old released to his mom, the other is going through processing now. >> mayor michael nutter of philadelphia, thank you very much for joining us so quickly tonight and explaining this to us. thank you. >> of course thanks lawrence. >> we're joined now from baltimore by jamaal bryant a pastor of the church in baltimore and he delivered the eulogy for freddie gray on monday. also joined by district 41 arrest in northwest baltimore. joe carter it looks like another night of where the curfew took hold relatively quickly.
this, tonight, without incident, without any real difficulty whatsoever. we're 57 minutes into it. and it seems to be that everything is under control and no problem. >> right. i'm not really surprised by that because i think that the issue is that people don't want to be disruptive. they simply want justice and they want to be heard. they want to chance the policing that resulted in the death of freddie gray. not just knowing the details of how he was killed which is important, but they want to stop the aggressive policing the unconstitutional arrests, and that's what they are hoping, you know, will come out of this. >> earlier on this program in this week, i've simply offered it to you as an opportunity to say to philadelphia what you want to say to philadelphia at this time. we know with this curfew that people are at home and they have their their televisions on and i'd
like you to take that opportunity again. >> i am so thankful to those of you in philadelphia who are standing with us in a movement from baltimore and a movement that has organically grown from ferg standard operating procedure. but this movement will in fact be disrupted under the tenor of violence. that's not the cord that we want to make. in order to change the law, you can't break the law according to malcolm x. so please let us operate civilly in order to hold up the standard of the change that we want to see. we want to reform policy but we also have to govern ourselves. philadelphia baltimore, the whole world is watching to see what our generation will do to hold the mantle for the next generation of civil rights. >> and what are you expecting tomorrow given that the community now knows there won't be any formal release of information from the police department? >> i'm expecting that there's going to be protests all over the city. but i am prayerful and expectant
that they're going to be peaceful. we're making our demonstration down to the baltimore city jail and making a human chain around that to shift the narrative, that is not about cvs or that good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. msnbc's germane lee and with city heads into the third night of a curfew, we have major twomts today in the case of freddie gray who died on april 19th after sustaining fatal injuries while in police custody. police announced this morning they graduated their findings to the state's attorney who was just sworn in in january. it will be up to her office to decide whether to pursue charges. police also revealed that the police van carrying gray made a previously undisclosed stop on its way to the station,