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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 1, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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ayes" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. with me from baltimore is msnbc's trymaine lee. we have major developments in the case of freddie gray, who sustained fatal injuries. baltimore police handed over the results of their investigation to the states attorney who was just sworn in in january. it will be up to her office to decide whether to pursue charges. police also revealed that the police van carrying gray made a previously undisclosed stop on its way to the station, discovered only after reviewing foot and from a privately owned camera. today a station reported new information on injuries who claimed that they found gray's
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catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van, apparently breaking his neck. a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van. and the mysterious second prisoner who was in the van with gray has now been revealed. today he spoke to an investigative reporter in baltimore. we will have that exclusive, extended interview just ahead. you and i were talking last night when we were out in front of city hall about how that "washington post" story, the headline of which was a quote attributed to a police document leaked of a police account of what that man you just saw said that he was -- freddie gray was intentionally trying to injure himself, how that was going to play in baltimore when folks woke up today, what has been the reaction?
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>> reporter: folks are obviously concerned and after a couple of nights of calm, folks are once again on edge. i spoke to a number of people today and they feel some of the leaks are trying to seed the foundation for some kind of counternarrative. what's been really troubling for folks is this idea that there was this stop that police just today found out that one of their officers involved in the arrest made some mysterious stop and it was captured on some private video and they just learned that today. many people said in this police department, which is 40% black, it's not so much about race, it's about corruption. so these ideas are feeding this concept among many people who just doesn't trust the police and don't trust this investigation. as we talked yesterday, all of these leaks and stirred up paranoia and hysteria among people pushing and fighting for injuries only throws the situation into a much more precarious situation. >> does it feel tenser there today than it did yesterday? >> reporter: i wouldn't say it feels a little more tense at
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all. i'd say the resolve seems strengthened. earlier today there were two matches, one began on the west side and one on the east side and they met at city hall. it seems folks are getting more organized and it's bolstering their injury. >> trymaine, i want you to stay with us. yesterday new york held a solidarity rally for freddie gray. tonight philadelphia, a huge march, hundreds, perhaps thousands, you can see them there in downtown philadelphia. and there are some very, very tense exchanges happening with mrs. right at this moment. you're looking at a live helicopter shot. you can see the kind of pushing and shoving right there at the front lines between protesters and police. police using their batons to force back the crowd, pushing into the crowd, grabbing some members of the crowd as you can see on the front lines. this all developing live right now in philadelphia, culmination of a march that started about an hour, hour and a half ago, folks
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calling for a march in solidarity in support of protesters in baltimore, part of the movement that's grown out of ferguson and other places where we have seen protests against police brutality. we'll continue to monitor those pictures in philadelphia. now, we still doesn't know how exactly freddie gray ended up with 80% of his final cord severed at the neck. we do know or appear to know that it happened during the roughly 45 minutes between gray's apprehension by the baltimore police and his arrival at the western district police station where paramedics were called. thanks to information released by the police and top-notch work by reporters on the ground, we're getting a clearer picture of what happened to freddie gray in those fateful 45 minutes on april 12th. it all starts at 8:35 a.m. where freddie gray is described as hanging out with a friend. four police officers pull up on bikes. after making eye contact with one of them, according to multiple accounts, gray takes
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off running. police find a switch blade on him. according to carnaling documents, he was arrested without incident. but witnesses claim he was crying out in pain. minutes later the van comes to a stop about a block away at the corner of north mount street and bake are street. april cording to police, the driver stops is to fill out paper work and he says gray is acting "irate" in the back of the van. at this point freddie gray is removed from the van and placed in leg irons. what comes next was not known until this morning. the police department revealed today that a privately owned camera recorded the police van
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making a previously undiscovered stop on its way to central booking at the conner of north fremont avenue and mosher street. we still do not know anything about what may have happened during that stop, what the cause of it was or what police may have done there. but at 8:59 a.m., almost 20 minutes after the arrest, the van makes a third stop when the driver requests an additional unit to come check on gray. according to police, the officers are able to communicate with freddie gray but they have to pick him off the floor of the van and put him back in his seat. at some point during this stop, the van is requested at another location to pick up a second prisoner. we don't know what time it arrives there at 1600 northwest avenue. the second prisoner, whom the police department has declined to identify, is loaded in the van, separated from gray by a metal divider. at 9:26 the fire department gets a call about an unconscious male.
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now, this second prisoner has been the subject of intense controversy. "the washington post" published a report late last night based on a leaked document that this second prisoner told investigators freddie gray was banging on the walls inside the van and trying to injure himself. wbaltv investigative reporter jayne miller managed to track down that prisoner and here is her interview with him. >> reporter: on the morning of april 12th what happened? >> i went in the basement store here to get a cigarette. and they shut the store down. they helping us out, they shut the store down. i come out the store without a cigarette because i already smoked it. that's how they cool with it, they let me smoke the cigarette there. i come out the store they say where's the cigarette at? these are the police. i told them i already smoked it. they get to checking me, right, so when they check me, all right, i ain't got the cigarette so they ran me straight through,
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put me on the ground, hit me on my face, all my brothers here seen it. hit me in my face. when they put me in the van, i did not know nobody was in there. there's two sides of the van. i want you to realize one side and this other side. three people can fit on one side, three people can fit on the other. there's no space in there whereas a man can hurt himself intentionally by himself. before he got in that van he was hurt. when he got in that van, he was already deteriorated. i know this for a fact because when we got to that police station, he was dead. >> reporter: let's back up. when you got in the van, did you know there was a prisoner? >> i did not know -- i had in my mind somebody might be in this van because i heard a little banging. i thought he was hitting his head. i did not know what was going on until i got down the police station. oh, they playing games. when i got down the police station, they did not know i heard them say we gave him a run for his money. >> reporter: did you see him? >> i did not see freddie gray to this moment.
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>> reporter: did you tell the police you heard him banging his head up against the van? >> i told homicide that. i did not work with the that. i did not tell the police nothing. >> reporter: tell me what you heard -- once you got in the van, what did you hear? >> once i got in the van, i didn't hear nothing, we went straight to the police station. i heard a little banging for about 4 seconds. i'm thinking he's banging his head the whole time. they did something to him, his body be wobbling back there because he can't hurt himself back of know paddy wagon. they don't strap us in there. >> reporter: tell me again what you actually -- >> what i actually heard? >> reporter: what i -- you actually heard. >> reporter: just little banging. up know what i mean? i know he was back there dying. when we got to the police station, he was dying.
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he wasn't responding. mr. gray, mr. gray, nothing. they talking about he swallowed something. y'all know he ain't swallowing something. i knew freddie gray was in the van when i got to the police station. >> reporter: okay, i just want to try to keep this focused on that four minute -- you were in the van about four, five minutes with mr. gray. >> i was in the van approximately up to 15, 20 minutes at the most. and then they wait 30 to 35 minutes to get this man some medical attention because they want to cover their [ bleep ]. since they can't cover their [ bleep ] on that, now they're trying to use me as a factor. i don't work with no police, right. and then the second thing is you all got to realize this. this is the same thing they did
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back in the day with their bbp when they infiltrated with -- you all got to know they're doing the same thing to me. i ain't no snitch, i ain't no rat, i ain't no [ bleep ], i'm not [ bleep ], we ain't around here doing none of that. these polices, they crooked, yo. >> when you got to the district, did you hear a conversation among the police officers? >> no. when i got to the police station, i heard them saying, well, y'all, we gave him a run for his money. basically say they go did something to him, man. >> reporter: run for his money, what did you take that to mean? >> i take it to mean they did certainly to him. you can take it, they can take it how they want to. they got over on him physically or mentally -- >> reporter: did you say to homicide you thought he was banging his head on the van?
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>> i told homicide he had to be banging his head because i did not know what was going on? i did not know the police beat him up with anything at that time. so when we got to the police station, i'm putting all the pieces to the puzzle together. when they let me go, they wrote me a citation and didn't even give it to me. >> joining me jayne miller, who conducted the interview and we have trymaine in baltimore. can you read a lot of pathos into this essentially wanting to come forward to clear his name essentially, as there was an article that essentially said that he said a thing that he says he didn't say. so what are the key things to take away from what this second prisoner is saying about that van ride?
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>> reporter: i think the key thing to take away is that he did not see mr. gray, he couldn't have seen mr. gray. i asked him -- i think we aired the whole thing. i asked him did you hear him say anything? he didn't hear him say anything. we have reported that at that time when mr. allen is loaded on to the van at that stop, that by that time according to our sources, mr. gray was unresponsive. a couple of minutes later when they get to the western district, he has no pulse. that doesn't come from just mr. allen, that comes also from our own reporting. what we have reported is that paramedics were able to get a pulse back by the time they got him to shock trauma. obviously he was in very bad shape. >> i'm sorry, i want to stress that because the timeline here is confusing. i thought he was mistaken when he said they said he doesn't have a pulse but he really doesn't have a pulse when he gets to the western district. >> reporter: that's correct. i say he was unresponsive when they finally got there and i say finally got there.
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there was some confusion about the way the call went out. the paramedics thought they were going for a broken arm, not a non-breathing person. that's a really significant difference. this is an injury similar to the christopher reeves injury with the broken neck, broken spine injury. the whole key is to get treatment quickly. we believe now based on this additional stop of the van that the injury would have occurred in the first 10, 12, 15 minutes of this ride, which means it was pretty substantial time before he actually got medical care. that's going to be the key to this case. i know the video is there, there's no video of what goes on inside the van but the information that was turned over
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today by the baltimore police department to the baltimore city prosecutors office, the state's attorney as office confirms what we have been reporting and that is what happened to him happened according to the autopsy and the medical evidence in this case, it happened inside that police wagon. so this is all about when did it happen, why did it happen and what police did not do to, first of all, secure him and also to take care of him after he was injured. that's what this case really boils down to. it also, i will add, it also involves the somewhat controversial element of why they arrested him in the first place. so all of that is in play but the autopsy does not have any evidence in it, any information in it that he was injured during that initial arrest. this is all about suffering that very, very severe injury once inside the wagon. >> i just wanted to reiterate this point, too. because people that -- that cell
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phone video of the initial arrest is very difficult to watch, it's obviously been played a million times. people conclude the first time i saw it -- the first time i saw it and i had you on the air, people think this guy can't walk, something happened prior to this. it's really clear to highlight for folks and this is also the abc affiliate in d.c., from what we know of the autopsy, the injury sustained had to have essentially been sustained in that van. >> reporter: correct. it needs that much energy. it needs that kind of force. that is correct. what you're seeing in that initial arrest, it doesn't feel good to get arrested like that but that's standard procedure is for police to handcuff an individual, put them on the ground, put their knee in the their back. it's painful. it's done to control an individual. if you watch in a cell phone video carefully, you can see at the very end of it, he does get into that van under his own power. that's what it appears.
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>> all right. finally i want to ask about this sort of mysterious stop that appeared today that we didn't know it happened yet and when i was apparently only revealed by some other cctv footage. what do you make of that? what should we make of it? >> well, if i were to -- the question i would have of the van driver at that stop is why did you make that stop? did you make that stop because you heard something in the back of the van that maybe indicated to you that something had gone wrong? because the next thing he does is drive a little bit further and stop again and call for other officers to come and, quote, check on his prisoner. the police commanders have said at that point there should have been a call for a medic and there wasn't. i think that new stop that we're talking about, if i were -- if i were asking the right questions and i am in this case, my question would be does that
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indicate that at that point that van driver knew that something was wrong. >> trymaine, let me ask you this, are the details of this sort of filtering out, are folks sort of focused on this today with sort of the revelation of this stop? >> reporter: some people are and some people haven't heard much about this. but when you listen to the interview and you hear that young man say that, you know, i don't work with the police, it speaks to volumes of which there's this big gap between the police and the community. but it also speaks to the broad distrust that, you know, dealing with the police can end up getting you hurt or somehow your words end up getting twisted. it's not lost on anyone because people in this community feel that this has always been par for the course. again, many people -- a number of people have heard about some of these details, others have been out here focused on marching all day long, even right now as night is descending, the crowd is getting a little thicker, people are
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trickling in and out. there is a certain vibe you're beginning to feel. i'm not sure what that means at this point. but it's starting to change a little bit. >> let me point out two things, trymaine about that interview. last night when that "washington post" article was published, the reason given for anonymity was to protect the prisoner. they said all this is being done anonymously because we want to protect the prisoner because we feel for him. what happens is that article is published and that prisoner comes forward voluntarily to say the safest thing to me is to put my face to this and explain what happened and give my account. so that to me is fairly interesting. it's also interesting that he makes a distinction between homicide and the police. he says i don't work with the police, i did tell this to homicide. i told homicide what i heard, which i thought was interesting. trymaine will be with us for the hour.
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when the media descends on a city, sometimes residents of that city are not so thrilled. and when fox news's geraldo rivera arrives, all bets are off. that's ahead. imagine if razors could move up and down and all around. behold, new venus® swirl™. the only razor with five contour blades and a flexiball™. to contour to your tricky places, bends and all. new venus® swirl™ shopping online... ...is as easy as it gets. wouldn't it be great... ...if hiring plumbers, carpenters and even piano tuners were just as simple? thanks to angie's list now it is. we've made hiring anyone from a handyman to a dog-walker as simple as a few clicks. buy their services directly at angieslist.com. no more calling around. no more hassles.
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we're looking at live pictures of philadelphia this hour, about two hours into a very large march, rally, in commemoration of the death of freddie gray. those folks have had some very, very tense confrontations with police. we showed you a front line of police with batons, clashing with protesters, shoving back and forth. that crowd is on the move making its way through chinatown in philadelphia. it's not just philly in the streets tonight. there's been protests across the country, many more planned for tomorrow. stay tuned.
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>> i want you to realize there as two sides of the van. three can fit on one side, three on the other. there's no space a man can hurt himself by himself. when he got in that van, he was already deteriorated. i know this for a fact because when we got to that police station, he was dead. >> joining me now jason down, attorney for the family of freddie gray. mr. down, your response, your reaction to the "washington post" story last night and now this gentleman coming forward to sort of clarify a little bit about what he did and did not hear, what he did and did not
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see in the van. >> well, i think it's important that we first start the discussion by distinguishing between facts and speculation. and the fact is very clear that there is a metal divider between the two sides of the van. so this other gentleman did not have an opportunity to see mr. gray. i think it's important to start with that fact. it's also important to know that this gentleman just said very clearly that he heard what he's calling a light banging or a little banging. and so we should also focus on the fact that you should not check your common sense at the door just because the law is involved. at this point common sense dictates that freddie gray did not and could not have severed his own spine. i think it's important to keep those things in mind. >> from what we know from the reporting of jayne miller and from what the preliminary autopsy said, the spinal injury he sustained would require a tremendous amount of force, the kind of injury of christopher reeves being thrown off a horse
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or being in a car accident, not physically what one can do to yourself. >> it doesn't take a doctor to tell you you're in the going to sever your own spinal cord. we're going to wait for the doctor reports before we draw conclusions. we can say he didn't sever his own final cord. >> today was the day that police handed over their information to marilyn mosby. she's only been in office 100 days. if i'm not mistaken, she never prosecuted a homicide case. she also comes from a family of police officers. her husband is the councilman in the district of which freddie gray was a consistent. are you confident in miss mosby's independence and ability
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to bring appropriate charges if that is what the facts require? >> what we have to remember is that miss mosby is in charge of an independent agency. so what we have to do is let miss mosby independently investigate this case. so i can't draw conclusions about the competency of her investigation until we're privy to the investigation. we're hopeful she conducts a thorough and impartial investigation. >> are you in contact with her office? i don't mean in an improper way, i just mean often in the way that they are in contact with families of the crimes they're investigating? >> we're certainly not in a position to confirm or deny whether we are in contact with miss mosby's office. we can say we're hopeful her investigation is thorough and confident and we certainly
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aren't privy to any of the details of her investigation. >> do you have an expectations of a timeline? we've already gone about almost three weeks. the question now becomes the state's attorney's office is going to look at this and maybe come to some conclusion. that could take a week or it could take ten months. what is your expectation for what a timely conclusion to the investigation and decision on criminal charges would be? >> well, what we don't want is we don't want a rush to justice, we want accurate, truthful justice. we're hoping for a truthful, thorough and frankly transparent investigation. that's what we're hopeful for. >> it sounds like you and the family are willing to be patient and you're confident that that patience will bear fruit in the sort of integrity of whatever investigation is conducted by this office. >> the gray family is certainly willing to be patient but they're willing to be patient as long as there's transparency.
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we're not looking for an investigation conducted in the dark. the gray family is certainly willing to be patient when it comes to a transparent investigation that we hope is going to be a thorough investigation. >> let me ask you this, mr. downs, given the fact that the commissioner has already admitted that the police in the van violated two protocols, they did not strap him in initially, and they did not call for medical help soon enough, violation of protocol, don't you facially have a civil wrongful death suit here? >> it is a step in the right direction that the police commissioner has acknowledged that there were mistakes made and that the police department did not follow their own internal regulations, but that still doesn't answer the question as to how freddie gray's spinal cord was severed and that's the question we want to know the answer to. >> jason downs, attorney for the
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gray family, thank you very much. as the nation's criminal justice system takes center stage, how possible is it that hillary clinton will call for changing in policies that she and her husband addressed. ♪ we're gonna pop around the clock tonight. ♪ pop in new tide pods plus febreze a 4 in 1 detergent. now with 24-hour freshness.
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joining me now, msnbc national correspondent joy reid. we saw huge marches in new york. i think particularly that
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"washington post" article last night has this movement very keyed up again. i think we maybe don't have sound for joy, who is having a hard time -- >> reporter: hi, chris. so i can't quite hear you. i heard just a little bit what you were saying. i know you were talking about some of the protests that were happening across the country. have i to step aside for a minute so you can see these kids who -- [ no audio ] so, chris, aside from being adorable, i think what they represent -- we talked to a guy earlier when we were at another location where a big protest happened today and he made a really great point. he said what's happening right now is essentially the babies
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have gotten the attention of the country, that really kids, young people, really young people in some cases and these are some of the youngest that we've seen, they've managed to galvanize an entire movement without cohesive leadership. the fact they've been able to have this movement and have it replicate in city after city, every time there is a death of a black man or not a district attorney of a black man, the mother of eric garner, who is trying to organize and bring to the the naacp, the national urban league and tried and find a way to coordinate that with this, they have coordinated the no justice/no peace mantra and they've layered on to it black lives matter. i think this is picking up steam around the country. you can see it's not stopping here in baltimore either, chris. >> joy reid in the streets of
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baltimore. thank you very much. lots of reassessment of the 1990 criminal policy of the democratic party, bill clinton in particular, someone who voted against the 1994 crime bill, will join me ahead.
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we now have a political situation where billionaires are literally able to buy elections and candidates. let's not kid ourselves. i believe that in a democracy what elections are about are serious debates over serious issues. not political gossip, not making campaigns into soap operas. we're in this race to win. >> there are now two official candidates in the race, democratic nominations, bernie sanders making it official. promising a candidacy focused on reducing income inequality and getting money out of politics. the issue that is suddenly front
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and center in the wake of what's happened in baltimore is the reform of the criminal justice issue. that's an issue on which the democratic party frankly has a lot to answer for. both hillary clinton and martin o'malley, who is expected to enter the race, are pushing for criminal justice reforms but critics point out their records don't square with the rhetoric. o'malley implemented a no-tolerance policy that ended up with the aclu suing. and hillary clinton as touted the crime bill of her husband which brought tougher sentences and more money for prisons. joining me is democratic congressman bobby scott of virginia. congressman scott, you voted against the crime bill back in
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1994; is that correct. >> i did. >> you were not in the minority of the democratic party but there were a lot of democrats who voted for it. the president pushed it very hard. why did you vote against it? >> they made the wrong choices. the choices made were to codify very popular sound bites. all it did was load up the prison. if we made a choice to follow the evidence and research, we'd have made different choices. to the point now where there have been studies that say we have so many people in prisons in the united states where the incarceration rate is actually counterproductive. that is to say so many people in prison, you're messing up so many families, wasting so much money, so many people with felony records having trouble getting jobs that you're actually adding to the crime. >> was it just politics?
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was it just pandering? >> you'd have to ask them why they voted for it. i'm explaining why i'm against it. >> you were there. you heard what the argument were. were the democratic party people think were soft on these criminals that we coddled them, we get beat by the republicans who bang us over the head with law and order. we're going to show how tough we are and prove to america how tough we are and that's what this bill is about. >> you'll have to ask somebody who voted for it. three strikes, three outs was the best slogan during the 1990 election cycle, best vote getting slogan. if you studied it, there's no evidence it does anything to reduce crime and yet it will load up the prisons and get us to point where incarceration rate is counterproductive. we know if we made a different choice, follow the evidence, if
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you want to reduce violent crime, you have to get people out of the cradle to prison pipeline and get them into the cradle to college to career pipeline. if you make the investments early and get people on the right track, keep them on the right track you can reduce crime and save money. but it doesn't poll as well -- as the children defense fund calls it, the cradle to prison pipeline, you get people into that and it polls well but it doesn't make any sense. >> your colleague in congress, back when he was in congress in the 1990s as well, kweisi mfume, he told me we need to call out harry reid. he said the democratic party had huge majority in both houses for two years and there was nothing done to reform criminal justice. is he right? >> there's consensus now about reforming the criminal justice system. i think people have figured out we're wasting money and not
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reduced crime as we should. i was part of a task force and we're developing guidelines on those findings. sentencing reform to make sure that the sentences fit the crime and not the draconian sentences that often violate common sense. and also a preventive approach to get young people on the right track and keep them on the right track. that kind of reform cannot on reduce crime but it can save a lot of money. you have people on the left and the right that have come to the conclusion that we can do better than we're doing. i think we'll have good support for criminal justice reform legislation. >> congressman, thank you very much. a 40% increase of prisoners sentenced to more than a year under bill clinton and more than 50% increase in the black prison population. that happened in the 90s. we saw violent crime rate fall
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in the 90s and continue to fall in 2011. i mentioned my conversation with former maryland congressman kweisi mfume. he indicated a 1990 crime bill was passed not on a roll call vote. but the final vote was a roll call vote with the vast majority of yes votes coming from the democrats, including the then congressman. he tells "all in" tonight he was referring to the initial vote in the crime bill, which was passed by voice vote before being sent into conference committee with senate negotiators.
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under the banner "philly is baltimore," you see in philadelphia they've been marching for hours and had moments of tense, tense standoffs with police.
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this is part of the growing nationwide movement against police brutality. yesterday in new york we saw 60 arrests and other tense moments with police. there are calls for more demonstrations tomorrow, both in new york, here in new york and around the country. stay tuned. many wrinkle creams come with high hopes, but hope... doesn't work on wrinkles. clinically proven neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair with the fastest retinol formula available, it works on fine lines
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>> it's not only about freddie gray. there's a lot of freddie gray. everybody's tired it have. we're tired of it. there's never going to be no justice. the system was never made for there to be justice for us. it wasn't made for that. this is what it takes for all y'all to be here, for the destruction of baltimore, for y'all to get here? that's ridiculous. >> in talking to my colleague joy reid as we await a press conference from the police, we've witnessed the fall-outs in communities throughout the country brought on by high profile deaths of black men by the hands of police, each incident grabbing the attention
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of the national media. in baltimore i heard mixed reviews on the media coverage from the people living there. so many were grateful for the national spotlight, some angry about the way their lives were being portrayed. enter geraldo rivera. one person seemed particularly frustrated that me was there. >> we're not thugs. i know who you are. don't walk away once we start talking. >> you're not talking, you're screaming. >> because you want to report that we're thugs and we're breaking this down. you have all these people from all these black folks. we're the ones that need protection, you're working for fox news.
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>> he got geraldo on the run, y'all. he got geraldo on the run. >> because we are angry. but, listen, a black man can raise his voice and you don't have to be intimidated. >> let him talk, though! >> i want you and fox news to get out of baltimore city. you're not here reporting about the boarded up homes and the homeless people under mlk, you're not reporting about the poverty levels up and down the avenue. when we marched years ago, you weren't here. you're here for the riots. you're not here for the death of freddie gray. >> i don't know if you were there when that whole scene played out but it was an articulation of a sentiment that you and i heard in baltimore, we
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heard it also frankly there ferguson and have heard it other places, a feeling that the way that the national media has covered the story, and we are part of the national media, let me be clear, has essentially been to elevate the worst element and not actually listen to what people are saying. >> it's such an uncomfortable dance, especially with us being here with a heightened sense here. there are moments -- there are moments late at night when everything thins out but us and here we are is just the media, it makes for an uncomfortable optic. but also coming up in journalism, we're not supposed to become part of the story. sometimes it seems we are becoming part of the story. what impact do the cameras have? a moment ago people coming up behind us trying to get on the camera. how are we altering what's happening? we hear time and again so many people want us out here because they feel it's some sort of buffer or protection from the police. others are uncomfortable with us
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being here. >> one of the folks i was talking to on north and pennsylvania the morning after the fires were set and the looting, i think people were frustrated that that was the thing that brought attention, right, that there was this big march saturday night, 4,000 peaceful folks, there wasn't a lot of attention to that, the white house correspondents dinner was that night. a bunch of people breaking property, throwing rocks at police, fire set and that was the thing that brought attention. there was real palpable tension about that. >> there's one sign posted on a bus stop that said "if not for last night, today wouldn't matter." it's a double edge sword. there are so many people doing positive work in the community. there are young organizers who are figuring out how to teach non-violent civil disobedience, people working with established
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community leaders. on the other hand you can't deny the other side of things. people are getting a little wild and out of control and we've seen that with the fires, with the clashes with the police. it's the double edge sword. without the optics burning and something going wrong, we wouldn't be here. that's part of the sad narrative that we play as media. they don't know, they don't trust us if we're just trying to capture the moment or if we're here of our own motives. >> there's lot of local reporters who are doing amazing work and have been covering this before the national media descended. it is a big story. the press goes to where the story is. but there is also that aspect where it's like this desire for theatrics and this sense --
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people aren't stupid. they understand when they're being manipulated. they understand when they're being exploited. they stand when the cameras have come in to basically say dance for us and they get that. like people -- it's not going over unnoticed the fine line between people doing reporting and doing that kind of thing. >> and when you feel it goes from minute to minute. just ten minutes ago somebody told me to go the f home, we don't want you, we want our home back. and the next minute someone said trymaine lee, msnbc. the crowd is starting to swell to the sidewalk. things are ramping up a bit. folks are now starting to stretch into the roadway. it's just the beginning maybe of a long night. who knows. >> stand by, trymaine lee, we'll be right back.
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i'll leave you tonight with this image. it's the baltimore police van, it's the kind baltimore police will place people into if there are arrests. people will be cuffed and put in a van like that.
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it's that kind of van that freddie gray was in when he sustained the injury that killed him. you've got to think since he's died, hundreds of people placed in vans like that, thinking to themselves that they're going to be the next freddie gray. that is "all in" for this thursday. rachel maddow is next. >> thank you. tonight baltimore is planning to impose a citywide curfew. police said they plan to keep the curfew going through the weekend but tonight will be their attempt to enforce night three. curfew starts throughout the large city of baltimore at 10:00 p.m., goes through 5:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. the national guard is also in the streets for a third street night supplementing baltimore police and supporting police that have been shipped in from surrounding communities and states. last night and the night before have seen some tension in the

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