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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 1, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT

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there is an ancient rhythm... [♪] that flows through all things... through rocky spires... [♪] and ocean's swell... [♪] the endless... stillness of green... [♪] and in the restless depths of human hearts... [♪] the voice of the wild within. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts now, live from baltimore. good evening from baltimore city hall. i'm chris hayes. the death of freddie gray was
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second degree depraved heart murder according to baltimore's state attorney. all six police officers in custody. on the streets, a mix of jup jubilation and tension. mosby will be my guest soon. charges to manslaughter to murder. the baltimore police just released the mug shots for the six officers charged and processed today. it's the first time we've got ton see their faces. state's attorney mosby announced the charges this morning, and there was an audible reaction from the crowd. >> the findings of our comprehensive, thorough and independent investigation, coupled with the medical examiner's determination that mr. gray's death was a homicide which we received today, has led us to believe that we have
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probable cause to file criminal charges. >> yes! >> mosby drew a connection to the protests and the violence rioting and looting, pleading for peace while she proceeds with the prosecution. >> to those that are angry, hurt or have their own experiences of injustice at the hands of police officers, i urge you to channel the energy peacefully as we prosecute this case. i've heard your calls for no justice, no peace. however, your peace is sincerely needed as i work to deliver justice on behalf of freddie gray. you're at the forefront of this cause. as young people our time is now. >> the news was greeted with relief by freddie gray's family. his mother telling buzzfeed i feel good because we got all six of them. you can rest freddie. you can rest. you can be in peace now.
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not everyone was pleased with the state's troernattorney's decision. the local chapter of the police defended the police officers in question. >> i have never seen such a hurried rush to file criminal charges, which i believe are driven by forces which are separate and apart from the application of law and the facts of this case as we know them. let me state in no uncertain terms that lieutenant rice and all of the officers involved at all times, acted reasonably and in accordance with their training as baltimore police officers. these officers did nothing wrong. >> earlier tonight, i sat down with state's attorney marilyn mosby. so i just came from outside city hall. there was someone with a drawing of marilyn mosby, like god bless marilyn mosby. i got people on my twitter feed this morning. it was just like, you are the youngest prosecutor of a major
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city in the country. this morning, there was this kind of like -- you became this immediate icon. i mean did you expect the reaction to be what it had been. >> no. at the end of the day, i'm here to do my job. it's about applying justice fairly and equally, to those with or without a badge. i didn't do anything differently in this case than i would do in any other case. >> it is different though because the context, right? you made an announcement on this case in a way you're not going to announce every -- >> well in the context of the public concern, i think your job as a prosecutor, if you have to alleviate that sort of concern, you should do that. i did that. i've had some other high-profile cases where i've had to have press conferences. so did i treat this case any differently in the pursuit of justice? no i didn't. >> when you made the announcement this morning, how much thought went into the words you chose, the characterization
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you gave, the detail you offered, all of that? i mean i think people were surprised. there was this audible gasp when you announced there were charges. how planned out was that moment? >> well i can tell you that from the very beginning, i put together an investigative team who, from the time that we learned of this tragic event, we went out to the vassing the area, spoke to witnesses. we reviewed hours and hours of video surveillance. hours and hours of statements in this case. medical records. this wasn't something that was really quick, fast and in a hurry. or rushed to judgment. this was a thorough investigation that we were conducting in parallel with the police department. so the information that was provided to us yesterday by the police department is information we already knew. >> did you learn -- i was in ferguson on the night that bob mcculloch announced there would
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be no indictment for darren wilson. ♪ in the shooting of michael brown. in terms of the atmospherics of how he chose to do the announcement and your announcement today have you learned lessons from watching these high-profile cases in ferguson and new york and other places? >> i wouldn't say learned lessons. i'm just a different prosecutor. my pursuit is going to be, at all times, to be transparent and to pursue justice. justice on behalf of the victims. justice on behalf of the defendants. i recognize that my decisions have collateral consequences in our community. in the end, it's just our approach is different. >> well there's one similarity i thought was notable. in ferguson bob came from a family of law enforcement. father was killed in the line of duty. you come from a long line of law enforcement. you talked about that today.
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how much does that shape and form the way you do this job? >> i think every perspective that you have shapes the person that you are. right? i come from five generations of police officers. my mother my father grandfather, my great uncles. law enforcement is pretty much instilled within my being. but i understand and respect that most and majority of police officers are risking their lives day in and day out. you know they're taking time and sacrificing time away from their families. they're on the streets of not just baltimore, but every urban city across america, and risking their lives for the betterment of communities. recognizing that because that's what my family did. i also recognize that there are those individuals who usurp their authority. they'll go above and beyond and pretty much go past the public trust. when they do that you have to hold those individuals accountable. if you don't, they do a
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disservice to those really hard working police officers. >> you also know the culture of police can often look very much askance at people who talk out of turn not loyal to their fellow officers. there is a case in baltimore of a man who testified against an officer about a dead rat on the windshield. there is a pending lawsuit. are you prepared for the backlash that might be coming at you and your office? >> what i can tell you is at the end of the day, my office is an independent agency from the police department. and i was elected by the city and the constituents of baltimore city to pursue justice. that's my mission as a prosecutor. to seek justice over convictions. so am i worried about any sort of backlash? absolutely not. have i done anything that's unfair or rushed? absolutely not. this was a thorough investigation. we applied the facts to the law. we've pursued this case, and i think fairly and appropriately.
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>> police say it is a rush to judgment. the support of an attorney is a conflict of interest and calling for a special prosecutor. >> that's absurd. where is the accountability? someone politically is going to appoint someone else and who do you hold accountable? the constituents of baltimore city elected me to exercise my discretion and apply justice fairly and equally with or without a badge. with reference to a conflict of interest, there is no conflict of interest. my husband represents the district i live. i am the baltimore city state's attorney. i represent his district and 13 other districts throughout the city. i prosecute crimes there. i don't have to turn on the news and open up the newspaper in order to see the crime impacting my community. i have to open up the door. there is no conflict. >> what happens -- i mean i don't know if you paid attention to what happened in new york the wake of eric garner the mayor had strong comments. there were two police officers murdered. it was a horrific act, really gutted the city.
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the police department basically launched an open revolt against the mayor. they turned their back at funerals. if you come in next week and start hearing from your lawyers that these cops aren't showing up to testify on court dates that you need to make your cases, what are you going to do. >> you hold them accountable. that's unacceptable. you have to change the culture. it starts with accountability. you asked me about the conflict of interest with reference to the family attorney. there is no conflict of interest. the family mr. gray's family attorney donated to my campaign and supported me. i had over 700 people who denate donated, including the fop. i don't see how there is any conflict of interest with reference to that. >> i talked to three gentlemen before i came here. from west baltimore. they said oh they talked about
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freddie gray and the van. they said that's just the thing, rough rides. cops don't like to run. you make them run, and they'll give you a rough ride. i talked to multiple people that said yeah it's a practice. thrown in the van, knock you around and you get out. it doesn't strike me or anyone, i think, that this is the first time this kind of thing has happened. >> well, i can't tell you whether this is the first time that it happened. i can't even tell you if this is what happened in this particular case. i'm prevented from doing so. but you have to at some point, change the culture of what's happening in the police department. the way that you do that is by holding them accountable. >> let me be more specific. six officers have been charged today. the officers presumably have been involved in arrests or have acted as witnesses for cases your office is bringing now or has brought in the last four months you've been in office. >> mm-hmm. >> are those going to be -- is there going to be a review of the cases? do you trust, given what we know from the police report which
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was not accurate particularly about the knife, do you trust the information you have from those officers? >> what i can say to you is i can't sit up here and tell you what i will do in these particular cases. these are accusations at this point. there's a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. to be fair and impartial in this process, i can't give you my opinion as to these particular officers. >> my question is do you have confidence that the information they have provided to your office upon which you have made cases, presumably your lawyers made cases off the officers. >> you're asking me to comment on the individuals that are currently pending, and i can't do that. >> some of the people i talked to fear that there will be retribution retribution. not against you by police but the people in the streets. the police will feel like they've been shown up or exposed in some way.
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what do you say to those citizens? is that a rational fear? >> what i can say is i think that we've sent a very clear message that that sort of culture is not going to be tolerated in baltimore city. period. >> final question for you. >> yes? >> does baltimore prosecute too many people? >> unfortunately, we have too much crime. >> right. >> i agree. and i have over 40,000 cases in district court. 7,000 that are prayed a jury trial into circuit court. over 5,000 felonies a year. yeah, we do have too much crime. one of the points the reason i said to the young people you know this is your moment. this is a movement. let's be productive. let's start to address some of the systemic issues within our communities. let's utilize this moment and do something about it.
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to have over 235 murders a year? we need to be as outraged. that's unacceptable. when i said to the young people let's capitalize off this our time is now that's what i meant. >> baltimore state's attorney marilyn mosby. only been in office four months the youngest of any state's attorney of any major city in the u.s. clearly, a pretty tough individual. i think you can tell from that interview. after her announcement of the charges today, people in baltimore celebrated. cars were honking their horns, people taking to the streets. that continues now with protest marchs ss marches. we will check in live at the corner with my colleague in a moment. do not go anywhere. t that we can do that is impactful?" what the cloud enables is computing to empower cancer researchers. it used to take two weeks to sequence and analyze a genome;
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all week people have been congregating in west baltimore, the corner of north and pennsylvania, the site of the
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cvs that was burned earlier in the week. joining me now, msnbc correspondent, joy reed. what is the scene like now? >> a jubilant scene. these are the biggest crowds we've seen in the entire week we've been here. choppers flying overhead warning people to stay on the sidewalks. a huge march passed through here marching in the direction of the police department. jubilant. people taking pictures with the state police officers decked out in gear. upbeat mood. this is a crowd that's happy, feels they won a big victory today, chris. >> joy reed live from west baltimore. at the corner you see north pennsylvania traffic open. it had been closed earlier in the week. we'll be checking back with joy throughout the night. more ahead, including the sister of a man who died in baltimore police custody a few years ago. officers weren't charged.
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freddie! freddie! freddie! freddie! scenes from baltimore earlier today after the state's attorney announced charges for six of the officers involved in the death of freddie gray. all six of whom are in police custody. joining me now, jones, whose brother died in police custody in 2013. and a citizen who challenged fox news's reporter last night.
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your brother died medical examiner found he had a preexisting heart condition but it was kpsexacerbated. >> my brother didn't die. he was brutally brutally assassinated or july 18th 2013. he was brutally murdered. he was a young man. >> you worked very hard to get rid of the state's attorney who did not prosecute, bring any charges against any officers in your brother's death. >> absolutely. he gave all the officers -- all 11 officers full immunity before he got their statements. >> they got full immunity? there were never any charges? >> they're still walking the beat. >> so you endorsed and have been an active member of the justice
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for freddie gray movement. you endorsed marilyn mosby when she ran against the previous state's attorney right? >> absolutely. >> how did you feel tonight, when watching the announcement that the officers would be prosecuted? >> i was happy though this is a part of the battle. we at war. i was excited that she kept her word. she looked our family in the face and promised she would not treat nobody different if she was elected in the chair. she showed what she was capable of doing. i give her kudos. right now, we're still at war. i'm not going to be satisfied until all of those cops that killed freddie gray are behind bars for the rest of their life. of get time. this is a slow walk in the right direction. >> this is the first step in the right direction. >> right. >> you had a lot to say to geraldo about how the media covered this. this focus on the stuff that went down monday night. and when no one was here months
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or two months earlier, a year earlier. what was your reaction to the announcement of charges today? >> i was right there when -- i want the commend state's attorney mosby for bringing charges to the six officers. but i was right there. i felt as though the same way as this young lady feels. this was the first step in a long process, hopefully in the right direction, but we know that the criminal -- the court system of america doesn't convict black cops at all, killer cops. hopefully it's not false hope. >> do you have -- i mean how is this going to play out? what is it going to be like here, as this works its way through the justice system? >> if you look at the news conference today and saw the state's attorney stand by herself, minus the police commissioner minus the mayor, minus the governor the same three individuals who labeled an entire generation of baltimore young as nothing but thugs,
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criminals and vandals. she stood alone. few politicians are standing up for the rights of black lives in this city. >> stephanie rawlings blake gave a statement. >> she made a statement to the media and stood out here on the steps of city hall and called us thugs and criminals. she couldn't make a statement to show she has our backs against the killer cops. >> there's been reports of police officers warning they will be in danger because of what happened. that this will essentially embolden people to challenge the police in baltimore. >> that's foolishness. if you do your job and keep your hands off us, not brutalizing us, you wouldn't be charge. everybody was living in tears, on the edge of their seats, looking to see if they were going to be charged. are you kidding me? serious? killer cops in cell blocks. if i go and brutally murder somebody they'll lock me up and
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throw away the key. no questions asked. why do we have to beg the system for something they owe us? >> you agree with that. >> if you look at every since anyone that has been out here continuously since the announcement was made, actually the military presence has increased in baltimore city. up and down north avenue thousands and thousands of concerned residents are marching peacefully. we have the older generation crying on the sidewalks, as they're encouraging the youth to march. the police are just geared up for, it seems as though they're scared of black lives in america. >> what would it take to create a situation where you trusted the baltimore police? >> accountability transparency. that's not been happening lately at all. this is the first time i seen any type of transparency. that's with marilyn mosby. >> clearly lay out as she did, what happened, what the charges are. >> i want to say, i'm so proud of the youth here in baltimore. they have been the leaders in
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this. they have been leading us and walking us peacefully, doing stuff right. they are not thugs. they are not thugs. if anything should be afraid it's the young. freddie gray was walking down the street. my brother was driving while black and brutally assassinated. the cops the first that pulled him over and started beating him. a man was beaten within inches of his life in front of his baby and nothing was done. how is my brother's autopsy complete with no pictures? we've been peacefully protesting actively out here so they wouldn't do what they did to freddie gray but they still did it. they know the west family and baltimore city has been out here on the front lines. we don't do this every day. we do this with or without y'all cameras.
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we do this in hot heat. with or without anyone. when people want to stand and when they don't. this is lives on the line. it's a shame. to make it work david lewis, the last one that showed up sat on my brother's dying back after he was pepper sprayed, tased, screaming for help. why you doing this to me? a 300 pound man, pressing his back so he couldn't breathe or talk anymore. >> the officers who were involved in your brother's death, there was an independent investigation that said they made mistakes. >> independent foolishness. if there was a thorough investigation, it would have said about the witnesses, there were credible witnesses. we had videos. if the videos would have shown freddie gray, we wouldn't be here now. videos of my brother's murder are out there. >> appreciate it. we'll be right back.
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we know that the vast majority of the men and the women in the baltimore city police department serve our city with pride. with courage. with honor. and with distinction. but to those of you who wish to engage in brutality, misconduct racism and corruption, let me be clear, there is no place in the
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baltimore city police department for you. >> this could be an ugly night at the curfew. >> that was stephanie recall rawlings-blake. landing in city hall at this moment, they've been marching all day. a lot of protesters expressing frustration with the curfew chanting, "convict all six." >> no justice, no peace. >> conflict all six. >> no justice, no peace. >> joining me now is the investigative reporter jane miller. that has been going around baltimore all day. jane miller get ingting involved with the crowd. >> their chant is justice from
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freddie to con six. the folks have been watching our reporter in baltimore a lot. they have been here quite a bit. >> what have we learned today? >> we learned that six officers have been criminally charged in this case. probably the most expeditious fashion we've seen in on-duty police incidents. >> you've been an investigative reporter in this town for a while. >> more than 30 years. >> despite your youthful appearance. >> thanks. >> and it's been a long time where there's been a lot of complaints about the police department, calls for accountability. this did mark some kind of break, it felt like from what has happened before. >> it may mark a new day in how these cases may be handled. i know there's been some criticism that this case was brought very quickly. in fact in criminal cases, it's not unusual for a case to be brought to this level, charged in a charging document within a couple of weeks. there are cases that are like
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that. there was a lot of evidence available right away in this case because mr. gray spent seven days in a hospital. there's a huge medical record. they start out kind of ahead of the game. five of the officers gave statements. that's clearly key evidence in the case. that was already done. there are witness statements, too, that were widely available. keep in mind this investigation went on for seven days before he died. >> right. >> there was a lot of work done before it became a huge national story. what will happen now, chris, is this will go to a grand jury now. that's the process here. more evidence will be presented and more information will be presented. then a grand jury will decide on indictment and we'll go from there. >> there was something that marilyn mosby said to me that i thought was interesting. we didn't learn anything from the police we didn't already know. you've been reporting a lot of evidence yourself. >> a lot of us have done serious work on this case. we knocked on a lot of doors,
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got witness information. we've gotten information from other sources i've had. so, yes, there was a lot -- it's a straight forward case when you think about it. you had to deal with what really happened during the initial arrest. but when you got to the point of his injury and we knew his injury right away. he was in shock trauma. you didn't guess at that. it was very clear, the injury he suffered. you had a head start on all of that. there was video evidence. there was more video evidence when the city's cameras were reviewed. it's a straight forward case. policy says he needed to be secured in a seat belt. policy says if you have a prisoner that asks for medical attention, call for it. when you boil it down it's not a complicated case. >> here's the final question -- >> it'll be a complicated prosecution but it's not a
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complicated case. >> the facts are not complicated. do we know the origin of the autopsy finds, which she said today when it was delivered to her -- >> it was ruled a homicide. >> correct. it occurred inside the police wagon. there is something that happened inside the wagon that caused him to slam into the back of the van. probably the back of the van, considering how he would have been sitting. and caused this catastrophic injury. it's the kind of injury that happens in a car wreck. from the jump they knew he didn't have other injuries because he'd been in the hospital. that's where they focused. do they know the exact point of when it happened? we may never know it. i think you can narrow it down. we may never know that unless the van driver at some point, we will hear from him. >> really a pleasure. thank you for your work. >> okay. gotcha. >> a baltimore police officer
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promoted rapidly. you actually testified against a fellow officer for beating a suspect. is that right? >> two officers. a sergeant and a regular patrol officer. >> and what happened after you did that? >> sir, to be honest, it started before, once i reported the incident. from the time i reported the incident, i had to deal with issues of people saying they didn't want to ride with me, being called a snitch and rat to my face. i called for backup two times and didn't receive it. blocks away from where the cvs was that was lit on fire, i was three blocks from there. two separate times, i didn't get backup. somebody came to my house and put a dead rat on my car after i testified against the officers. i had to deal with the same things, being called a snitch and a rat. i dealt with people accusing me of all types of things.
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the commissioner moves me around the department to the point i didn't know where i was to report to. he'd tell me one week i had to watch an alley to make sure nobody broke in eight hours a day. it became miserable. they tried to investigate me. it's something important to bring up sir. go ahead. >> let me ask you this. given what your particular experience was, and you have a pending lawsuit, what is your reaction to marilyn mosby's announcement of charges for these six today? what do you think is going to happen in the baltimore police department in the state's attorney's office as this goes forward? >> for one, i'd like to say that i think the state attorney ms. marilyn mosby, handled herself in the press conference extremely well. the mayor could probably learn something from this state attorney, ms. mosby, by her demeanor and how she came across professionally. as far as what happened, obviously, it's a sad day for
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police in general across the country. this is bigger than just baltimore. it's important the citizens of baltimore feel that justice is being served. at the end of the day, a man died for what was told by the state attorney for no reason. a man had passed away for no charges, no reason. that's horrible. as far as the relationship between the state's attorney's office goes, i'm not sure how that's going to impact it. it could impact it in a negative way. i read about the sop, how they wanted ms. mosby to bring in a special prosecutor. that could be a preview of things to come. >> did you know any of the officers who were charged and arrested today? >> i worked with one of them briefly. lieutenant rice was my sergeant for a brief time. maybe three or four weeks while he was still a sergeant. >> do you imagine or anticipate
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that we would see any actions taken by the baltimore police in a concerted fashion, as a sort of act of protest against these charges? >> well my first thought to that, like i said when i read the letter the union put out, my feeling was when i read that sir, was if they felt that way when they did the first press conference instead of the sop president calling the protesters a lynch mob, when all the protests had been peaceful until that time i feel this is an issue they should have raised before officers were indicted. i don't feel -- now, i feel it's a little -- it's like crying over spilled milk. you'd be asking for ms. mosby to bring the special prosecutor if she had decided not to charge the officers. i think the timing of it is bad. it could definitely be blow back between the police department. my thing my incident has shown
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is, you know officers do not like other officers coming forward. i don't know if they're going to reach out and feel that way about the state's attorney's office. but if any officers came forward, they could have a rough road ahead of them especially under this administration with commissioner commissioner batts. >> thank you very much sir. appreciate it. >> my pleasure sir. >> more breaking news just in about the six police officers arrested in the case of freddie gray. we can confirm all six officers have posted bond. there's a preliminary hearing scheduled for may 27th. ahead, we'll talk to the man who was baltimore's first elected black mayor. unbelievable! toenail fungus? seriously? smash it with jublia! jublia is a prescription medicine proven to treat toenail fungus. use jublia as instructed by your doctor. look at the footwork! most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application-site redness itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters, and pain. smash it!
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david wildstein is a liar. >> that was bridget kelly. a lot of indictments being handed out in new jersey as well. bridget kelly linked to the bridgegate scandal with chris christie christie. rachel maddow is going to cover that. a huge day of developments in that case. all of the coverage of that will be coming up of the show. you do not want to miss that. stick around. it gets a little stale. when dad opens up the window what's the first thing he does? the tobin stance spring is in the air and pollen, dog hair... the sunshine looks like fairy dust. (doorbell) whoa! what's this? swiffer sweeper! swiffer dusters! removes up to 70% of dust and allergens. stays on there like glue wow! look at that! ew! the tobin stance! that is totally what it is!
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the protest in baltimore over the death of freddie gray one of many protests we've seen around the country over police brutality. these protests however, have coincided with the ramping up of the presidential campaign. particularly on the democratic side where we have an active primary. that has resulted in essentially
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a change in rhetoric. from democrats, we're seeing a 180 on they policy on crime and punishment. i sat down with illinois senator, one of the top leaders in the senate, to ask him about the about face democrats ss seem to be doing on crime and punishment. >> what changed? i remember in 1992 bill clinton went off the campaign trail to fly back to arkansas to watch a man, who was -- had an iq of 80 be executed. he ran on being tough on crime. three strikes and you're out. new categories of offenses. was that the wrong thing to do back then? >> it was an overreaction. we wanted to end the threat of crime in our neighborhoods for our families. overreacted. now, we know better. now, we're going to be smarter in the way we do this. yes, bad people will be incarcerated and they should be. shouldn't be released until we're confident they're going to
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be safe in terms of their confident. we've filled our prisons at great expense. the expense of prediction dealing with poverty, dealing with education. i think we're trying to right the balance and the overreaction of years gone by. >> a generation ago, a democratic mayor from this city went before congress and suggested we should decriminalize drugs. he was rit kuldiculed and he'll join me. - more than a billion people visit social networking sites every month. let's talk to our kids about what they publish and post and what they don't. an open dialogue is the best way to help kids navigate the internet safely. the more you know.
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what i think the people of baltimore want more than anything else is the truth. that's what people around the country expect. >> the president today weighing in on the decision to charge the six police officers involved in the death of freddie gray. joining me now, the first elected african-american mayor of baltimore, kurt schmoke. mr. schmoke, can you tell me your reaction to marilyn mosby's announcement this morning? >> well i was actually surprised that she made that announcement. i thought what she was going to do was to come out and explain the process. i know the community had a lot of questions about the whole charging process. but the fact that she laid out the case and then explained the reason for the charges, i think, was very helpful to the
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community. >> you know i was going back reading old newspaper articles about you in 1988 causing a tremendous controversy. when you went before congress and you said maybe we should think about decriminalizing drugs. it became a huge national conversation. a lot of people criticized you. >> yeah. >> what is your reaction now as you listen to people in both parties starting to say, the war on drug it is a failure. we lock up too many people for non-violent drug crimes. >> yeah. all i was trying to say back then was that we ought to have a war on drugs, but it ought to be primarily a public health war rather than a criminal justice war. and i came to it in somewhat of a unique position. because i had been both the state's attorney as marilyn mosby is now, and mayor of a big city. so i saw the problems from a somewhat unique perspective. i knew that we couldn't
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incarcerate our way out of the drug problem. tried to make the case for more of a public health approach. you can see now, more and more people whether they're politicians or law enforcement officials, are talking more about health strategies rather than trying mass incarceration. >> what is your -- as someone who held the position that marilyn mosby held what is your sense of her in this job? she's only four months into it and she's the youngest state's attorney of any major city in the country. she's got a very, very very difficult case to make. >> well i know she's in a difficult position. i really felt for her. but i was 32 when i was the state's attorney. she's 35. there's a lot of pressure on you from a variety of sources. i think she showed integrity. she laid out the facts. she has brought together a very
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good investigative team. i don't think that she was pressured at all politically. i heard one person criticize her for not having the mayor and the governor around her. i thought that it was actually good that she didn't. she showed independence. she laid out a case. it's going to be a tough case as you know. i think jane miller described it. it's one thing to charge. quite another to convict. if this were a civil case of charging or suing for wrongful death, that would be pretty easy case because the police have admitted negligence. but this is now a criminal case where she's got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. it's a pretty high standard. so if she believes that she has a strong case then i'm glad she moved forward. but the community is really going to be watching with the great scrutiny to see if indeed, these charges can be
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sustained. >> mayor stephanie rawlings-blake had a lot of criticism. that she pulled the police back too much, allowed too much destruction, was not heavy handed enough. she's been cite sizeriticized for not reforming the police department fast enough. what's your take? >> it's tough. when i was the mayor, we had a couple years where we had high homicide rates. one year i was tempted to ask the national guard to come in to supplement our police department. but the then general of the national guard said, that's the last thing you want to do. the last resort. it has a long-lasting impact and impression on your community. try everything you can to control the situation with your local authorities. i think that's what she did, but
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she recognized that it got to a point with all the flash mobs going in very unpredictable places that she had to call in some support. it was a tough, tough call for her. i know she recognizes how difficult it was. it's hard to second guess when ewe deal you're dealing with that situation. >> given that you were someone who sort of started to talk about ending the war on drugs, or changing the way we approach drugs in this country, do you think we are going to see this actually play out in policy? are we going to see a real change in how we approach this? >> yeah. i do believe that we're going to see change. we have recently elected republican governor in a heavily democratic state. the first thing he did was to create a commission to look at the heroin problem in our state.
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his lieutenant governor has been chairing that commission. all the messages they've been talking about have been public health approaches. how do we reduce addiction? how do we move people from being addicts? i think the whole rhetoric has changed. we're going to see this policy changed not only at the local level, but at the national level. >> former baltimore mayor, kurt schmoke. thanks so much. the "rachel maddow show" starts now. >> great to have you there. great hour from chris. amazing. thanks to you at home for joining us. we have news later on this hour on bridgegate. the guilty pleas and the criminal indictments announced in the new jersey bridge we have been watching the events in baltimore. we've been watching this story all week. no one expected what was going