tv Lockup Raw MSNBC May 15, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
the correct consider is c. >> you cleaned up and did aaron win the prize? >> all of it. so much goodness. >> what are year is it from? >> 2010. 93. >> still good. really, really great to have you here. thank you so much for playing. nice to meet you. >> appreciate it. >> awesome. that was great. send us an e-mail and all we need to know is who are, where you are from and why you want to play the news. if you are sensitive about your head or face hair, me and i won't ask you about it. send us your junk. >> msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now, the scenes you have never
seen. lock up, raw. >> what did i tell you. leave that alone. let god take care of that. it ain't your business to take care of that. >> they are the prison stories best described by one word. >> when i came to prison, i had to do what i had to do to survive. >> you don't know how many men you convicted? >> no. >> he was convicted of three rapes, but he said he had raped 22 total. >> the word is -- >> when i talk to people about lock up, they are surprised when i said the lead field producer is a woman. she does a great job of capturing life behind bars and very, very difficult environments. she had a cross from serial killers, rapists and seen
stabbings. it's amazing how she keeps her cool when inmates cross the line with her. >> one of those times would involve particular rule violation that occurred dozens of times during our stay at correctional facility in alabama. >> there was an unusual phenomenon in holman prison. they had a big problem with public masturbation. they were dealing with the problem as best they can. if a person got caught, they would immediately put into lock up and they had to go through certain programs in order to get out of lock up. >> the violation is known as rule 38. the prison's warden developed a no nonsense approach to dealing with it. >> if you get caught with a 38, no questions asked, we are locking you up. we will sort it out later, but you go to lock up. that's item. the first offense is 90 days. the fourth time it's a year.
>> it happened a lot for some reason. it was getting to the point where particularly in the lockdown facility we would walk down the and all you see are hands going. it gets unnerving after a while. i attribute it to the fact that there were a lot of very why you think men locked up with long sentences and this was one way they decided to manifest their sexuality. >> if there is a female that excites me sexually, i take a liking to them, right? >> why? >> it's the only way to get the sexual healing. you know what i'm saying? ain't no sex magazine in the prison. >> inmate terrence moseley was a frequent rule 38 violator. >> it's a thing i got for women. okay, if i have to go through all this, i like women. i got to go through it.
>> okay, you like women, but that offends women. it offends women. >> yeah, i might have to find something else to do then. >> for chronic rule 38 violators, that something else might be finding a higher power. >> i was in fellowship and we might start the common problem and the sexual addiction. they desire to stop the sexual behavior. >> besides going to lock up, inmates caught exposing themselves must attend sex and love addicts meetings. moderated by a staff counsellor, they are similar to alcoholics anonymous meetings. >> i used to tell myself, it's no problem with it. getting up every morning and
going masturbate in front of women. i used to say that's a choice i'm making. >> we discovered that johnny perkins, serving a life sentence for attempted murder and robbery was a veteran of the group and an authority on rule 38. >> when i came to prison, it was unheard of. public masturbating. i think i maybe was one of the first that really started. i have over 20 years of experience with doing this. i guess because -- i don't know. it's exciting, i guess. i guess feeling some type of connection because i know that's a woman and i know she sees me. you feel? >> it was clear from talking to him that he was caught enough and locked up enough to the point where he had the system worked out. >> i still get up every morning and go around the whole institution where i can go to we
have the females is working. if a female is working in a spot where i can masturbate in her presence and get away with it because that's part of getting away, not going to lock up for it. >> though he covered the sex and love addicts group, interviewed both staff and inmates about rule 38 and had been exposed to numerous examples of the violation, we weren't quite done with it. ♪ looking for danger. every thug that smiled and lap dances and taking chances ♪ >> when we heard them rehearsing on the yard, we had no idea we would soon be in the middle of another rule 38 drama. >> this will be a masterpiece and i want the world to hear we have gifted guys here. i have a sensitive side. don't think my demeanor, this patch is not me.
i might look like a thug [ bleep ], but i'm a good guy. >> we were wrapping up and i turned my back on him and started talking to another inmate. after that when the officer came running by saying that guy anthony you were just talking to is going into lock up. he grabbed our camera and tried to find out what was going on. we found out that anthony was observed publicly masturbating behind me from what i understand. >> they are taking him to lock up and as they are stripping him out, they find that he is holding a joint, a marijuana cigarette. now everything is compounded and he will be in more trouble. >> what happened? >> somehow there is weed in my pocket. he said i was masturbating on you. did you see me a >> i didn't see anything.
>> honestly i didn't see it. the officer saw it. he said i saw you masturbating. doesn't matter if she sees you or not. doesn't matter. you are going to lock up. >> basically you are accusing me of that. >> he kept denying up and down he had done anything. the officer saw what he saw. >> he locked me up. >> having your penis out indecently exposed using it for something other than to urinate. >> with rule 38, we return to johnny perkins for more insight. >> everywhere you go, if you are down the hall, you will have them watching y'all. really watching the woman. any time a woman comes around, they want to watch. someone will be trying to masturbate. >> at one point, he was looking directly at me and he said i was stalking you all, but there were too many people around you.
i had a hard time and i decided not to take the chance. >> when y'all first started coming here, i stalk y'all for a couple of days, but y'all had a crowd and that's not me trying to masturbate around a whole bunch of people. i am into one on one. >> there was me and a female colleague who worked on the crew and there had been one day when she and i were working together and we kept seeing something out of the corner of our eye. a hand was flashing and would see a guy jump around the corner. this happened over and over to the point where i thought we were going insane. i realized after his interview, it was him. he was trying to get our attention, but we did have security staff around us. he didn't want to get caught again. >> you don't think of it as a problem. if i told you it's a problem with me -- >> right. >> now what.
>> the truth? if i caught you in the right position, it wouldn't matter. i would still try to masturbate in your presence. >> even if it upset you? >> even if it upsets you. i know if they don't me don't you consider that to be mentally raping her and disrespecting her? and so on. but i guess at that time it's not about you. it's about me. what i want to do. >> i know it's sick. i'm not normal. i know i'm not normal. the average man in here is not normal. we wouldn't be sitting here if we were normal. >> coming up -- >> i got the big knife. >> why? >> in belgium, a bizarre
interview about murder is interrupted by a jewelry delivery. >> an officer is bringing shawn a watch. everything had to stop. >> and later -- >> just walking around shopping centers waiting to slit the victim. >> one of the most chilling introduce inside the mind of a serial rapist. fist something we do to show resolve. to defend ourselves. to declare victory. so cvs health provides expert support and vital medicines. at our infusion centers or in patients homes. we help them fight the good fight. cvs health, because health is everything. ameriprise asked people a simple question: can you keep your lifestyle in retirement? i don't want to think about the alternative. i don't even know how to answer that. i mean, no one knows how long their money is going to last. i try not to worry, but you worry.
>> lock up has been do you meaning in some of the america's most hard core national security prisons since the year 2000. in 2009, we went behind the walls of prisons overseas for the first time on lock up world tour. we discovered that while many of the challenges facing these prisons were the same, the differences were startling. that was especially true when we visited prisons in belgium. we learned when an inmate
escapes, authorities will try to catch them, but not charge them with an additional crime. >> it's the law that sets an effect of escaping is not a crime, but they can do another crime. for example, if they escape with the prison clothes, keeping those prison clothes is a crime unless they send the clothes back and in the past we had someone who escaped jumping out of the window. we get the clothes back and washed and cleaned. he didn't make any crime. >> even though belgium has one of the lowest crime rates, shawn schaefer's interview is one of the more unusual ones. we met him in the segregation unit in the mac mum security facility. 30 december, i killed my
wife. >> okay. why and how? >> i killed her with a big knife. >> why? >> because i had no gun with me. >> okay, but why did you kill her? >> oh, because i was angry that she won't leave. for her, no problem, but she won't take my son and she wants to move with my son to germany. >> schaefer, a korean adopted by a dutch family said he had outstanding charges in germany that could have led to a two-year sentence if he it will followed his wife into the country. after arguing he stabbed her numerous times. >> three times in the neck, two times in the back, two, three, in total, 10.
with a big knife. >> how many? >> kitchen knife. >> in the middle of the knew, something unusual happened. >> we are in the middle of this interview with shawn. i noticed a interaction coming over my right side and it was an officer and he was holding a wrist watch that shawn placed an order for a couple of days prior. >> it was very important for shawn to check this watch out to make sure it's exactly what he wanted. he ordered it and wanted to make sure it was what he needed and everything had to stop. >> that's the watch. when it's not good, i must come back. i must seat watch. >> my wife is killed and i don't see much else. only i can buy maybe nice watches. >> the officer brought it to him almost like a merchant.
>> let's see the watch. how much did it cost? >> not so much. 320 euros. $500. >> i looked at it and showed it us us and packed it. a very unusual experience. >> you bought a watch in prison? >> yeah. you can buy everything. you have money, you can buy everything. >> how do you have so much money in prison? >> after the interview, schaefer invited us inside his cell where he showed us a few of the many watches he purchases in prison. >> this is a guess. you know guess? in america. but i have at home a much watches. so i must always buy a new watch. >> not long after receiving his new watch, schaefer's thoughts
returned to cory, the woman he killed. >> i think of cory and that's very strange. never. never. that's a big word, but i only think of my dog and my girlfriends. my son. i think i won't block it. she's the reason why i'm here. >> the couple's 3-year-old son lives with his sister. >> i think he gets everything he wants. love, money, he has a very good life. >> but he doesn't have a mother and a father. >> he is like the same like me.
i don't know my parents also. >> coming up -- >> this is the guy we are all told to fear and defend ourselves again. >> after performing the physical rapes, i would scare these women to death. >> in a rare interview, a serial rapist opens up about now why he committed his heinous crimes. that's going to go right in your glove. ohhh. oh. see that? great job. ok, now let's get ready for the ball... here it comes... here you go. good catch. perfect!
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it's not uncommon for inmates to share the grizzly details of their kr50i7crimes, rapists almost never do. this proved to be an exception. >> this inmate was every woman's worst nightmare. this is the guy we are all told to fear and defend ourselves against. >> i'm a serial rapist. i have been convicted on three separate occasions for rape. >> he was convicted of three rapes, but he told us he raped
22 women total. i knew there were 19 other women out there who he had attacked and terrified. he wanted to remain anonymous because he was getting out soon. he didn't want any of these victims to see him because he would have to go back to prison. >> when we met him, he was coming up on a 44-year sentence and it wasn't his first time in prison. >> my first rape was in 1975. i picked up 13 years on that and i served two. i was released and lasted about a week. and again was picked up and charged with a rape. i was returned to the state penitentiary in 1982. 1986. i was release and i lasted on that parole for about two weeks.
then i began again with the serial raping. >> in this interview he went into great detail about the preparations, tactics and execution of his crimes. while his comments are disturbing, they offer valuable insight into the mind of a dangerous criminal. >> before i started committing the rapes, i would start preparing the sites. between a week or two weeks to get set up. i would find isolated places on all four sides of a city, places with no houses within a given distance. each one of the locations i would have at least three escape routes. >> once the preparations are were made, he would look for the could have. >> shopping centers. it's a major hunting ground for me.
laundry mats and places generally where they have parking lots. >> i felt value in doing this interview even though he wouldn't be identified, he gave us a break down of how he was able to perpetrate the crimes. for me, it was a true cautionary tale. >> i went just walking around the shopping centers waiting to slit the victim. >> women who were alone in the store so he could follow them and go back to the car and have no one there to help them. >> once i picked out a victim, i would follow them until they returned to the cars and pull a weapon and in my case, a knife. i would force them into the cars. >> what i took away from the information is to try to be vigilant and aware. particularly in a parking lot and particularly getting into your car. that's a common place for women to be attacked. >> how did you drive and keep
them in the car? >> for the most part, yes, ma'am. they were terrorized. on a few occasions, i would force them down on the floorboard of the car where i could keep an eye on them. i would try to keep the speed at a fast drip so jumping out would not be an option. i would immediately have them strip down naked and force them to put their clothing in the handbags in the back seat. you never know what a woman has in her purse. they could have a pistol or a knife of their. mace. whatever. so that would be the first thing i would do. plus it keeps a female from if they are nude, they don't have a
tendance t enency to run. another psychological factor. >> what was the knife? >> the knife was on me at all times. after i disrobed and fixing to commit sexual intercourse, i would have the knife stuck in the ground within reach. i would strip down and rape them. sometimes i would keep the victims anywhere from three to five hours at a time. >> seemingly he was bold about how he did his crimes because of the fact that he would reveal himself. these women would know who he is. the fact is he was a big guy. he had been in prison a while when we met him. i can only imagine when he was younger how much more powerful he was. also the way he was able to not
get caught was the threat he imposed on every one of the victims. >> intimidation was the big play. i would literally after performing the rapes, the physical rapes, i would literally scare these women to death. >> coming up -- >> the motivation for becoming a serial rapist stems back to when i was 18. >> our interview continues. why are we so committed to keeping you connected? why combine performance with a conscience? why innovate for a future without accidents? why do any of it? why do all of it? because if it matters to you, it's everything to us. the xc60 crossover. from volvo. lease the well equiped volvo xc60 today. visit your local volvo showroom for details. it begins from the the second we're born.er.
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going to last three rounds. back to lock up. >> during our stay at the penitentiary of new mexico, our producer conducted an interview with the rapist who would be returning to society. the inmate agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity. what he had to say is disturbing. but provides a rare insight to the mind of a serial rapist. >> after performing the rapes, the physical rapes, i would scare these women to death. what i would do is go into a victim's purse and find address books and take the balance out of their purse and say okay, now i know where you live. i know where you work. i know where your kids go to
school. if you ever report this to the police i will come back. i will kill you. i will kill your family. my threats were made as real as possible. nine times out of ten, they would try to reassure me that would never happen. >> when he decided he was done, he would drive his victim back to the parking lot where he kidnapped her and returned to his car and drive home. often with what he described as a trophy. earrings, watches, necklaces.
let me recall. she is telling me about the situations, i couldn't help but flash on the women. how their lives had gone and had they been able to go on. >> my motivation for becoming a serial rapist, it was back to when they were willingly declaring war on society and decided this would be the ultimate rhyme against society that would earn me the most despicable reputation, if you will. i wanted to ruin my main because i hate my father. >> you have anger and hatred for your father and you victimize women. >> my motive was not to
victimize the women, but performing the crime that is viewed by society as being detestable. does that clarify anything for you? i'm trying not to sound totally insane, but this is the motivation. >> i think you take your rage out on women. you seem to love your mother. >> i do. i do. >> when we met him, this inmate had completed the first six months of an intensive 16 month program. >> it's time for a change. when i woke up this time i will be 60 years old. i'm going to have that much longer left anyway. i want to enjoy it the best i can. >> this program helped him empathize with his victims and he said he does feel remorse.
>> i know it sounds lame, but i would want them to know i am sorry for what i did. >> he apologized to his victims, but the problem with that is he is not making himself recognizable to his victims. he is not truly standing up and taking responsibility to the very people he hurt. >> i didn't hurt him physically. mentally is the question. they were pretty thoroughly frightened. >> you didn't hurt them physically? >> outside of the rape. i didn't beat on them or slice them up or cut them or harm them physically other than the sexual intercourse. >> he did hurt these women when he raped them emotionally, physically, psychologically he altered their lives.
>> approximately one year after the interview, the inmate kpreeted his rehab program and came up parole. he was denied and had to remain in prison, but not for long. his 44-year sentence was reduced by approximately half due to good behavior, meaning he only had a year to serve before being released. >> i would be interested to know how he is doing and if he has gotten himself into any more trouble, but the problem with that is, he had 19 victims for which he was never caught. so there is no real way of knowing if he is acting out unless he gets caught. >> coming up -- a former prostitute's drug addiction leads to frightening consequences. >> you don't know how many men you infected with hiv. >> probably enough. and the most advanced vehicle stability system in the industry... ...you'll ride with a feeling of complete freedom
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in most maximum security prisons, people convicted of sex-related populations are out casts and housed in protective custody to keep others from beating or killing them. >> these offenders rarely discuss the details of their crime and when they do, it can be tough to take. there is value to their stories. they are cautionary tales. >> we met tammy deeds at the tennessee prison for women. initially it wasn't her crime that caught our attention. it was her disability. >> what is it like being deaf in prison? >> oh, it's not fun. it's not. because you have a lot of bullies here. a lot of them make fun of me. all the time. >> deeds has been deaf since birth. >> i know sign language. i read lips and i just have been
reading lips. >> as a young woman, it wasn't her hearing that caused her to unravel. it was a crack addiction. >> i couldn't find crack, i would do heroin. >> deeds's addiction led to a life of prostitution and several arrests. she currently serving years not just for prostitution, but aggravated prostitution. >> me what aggravated prostitution means. >> it means that knowing that you have hiv and you are out there on the corner or walking trying to get dates. >> deeds was first diagnosed with hiv in 1999. >> from 1999 to when you were inkors rated, how many customers, how many tricks do you think you had? >> how many? i can't count them. i don't know if i infected anybody, but i can only imagine
i have. you know. i just don't want to think that i did. it's not good. >> did you use condoms? >> well, no. no. not always. but i do try to carry them on me when i do. a lot of them have them and don't want to wear them. they say no. when i'm desperate for the next hit and i have 30 or $40 offered and i have a condom and they tell me no, i'm not going to pass up the $30 or $40. >> i was struck by tammy's willingness to talk honestly about her past. when she described the crimes, she almost came across to us as warning people. >> so you don't know how many men you infected possible low with hiv? >> probably enough. i don't know. i can't tell how many because i
don't know. i have been with enough men and i hate to think that i did. >> let's think about that, tammy. here's a chance. where were you a prostitute. talk about the area you worked as a prostitute and from what years? if somebody is watching this and they recognize you, maybe they can get themselves tested. right? >> well, but that doesn't mean they probably got it from me. there is probably not the only one they have been with. there is no fact. my blood and your blood, i got it from me or you got it from me. i could find out who i got it from, but it wouldn't work that way. and vice-versa. i have been with so many men and he has been with so many women. he don't know if he got it from me or the next one. >> deeds later told us that most
of her prostitution activity after contracting hiv occurred between 1998 and 2001 in knoxville, tennessee. >> how is your health? >> i'm great. physically i don't, but emotionally, i do. at times. mentally. when i think about it, it's not good. >> they all consider the well being of her plans, she did give thought to her three children. she gave them up for adoption knowing her drug addiction made parenting impossible. >> why are you crying? >> because i miss my kids. i envy those that got to raise
them. i wish i had a reason of what i did to people. i think i wouldn't have been here today. >> me what is going to be different when you go out next year and are released from prison, what will be different? >> what will be different? well, i have one choice. to live and be out there with my children and my family. or be dead in the ghetto. that's all i can say. i have to do it. i have to. i can't come back. i am 39. i'm getting too old for this. toold. i can't do this no more. >> coming up -- >> an old conteaches a new
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>> we visited indiana state prison shy of its 150th anniversary. it was established in 1860, year before the civil war. it housed the state's most infamous criminals. john dillinger did time here in 1929 and years later masterminded the escape and has been through changes over the years and it's still a prison with old school bars and convicts who don't want to be mistaken for inmates. >> they treat you with respect. guys who talked bad about you and no matter howie treat it.
you don't get anything like that in return. they are slowly going from convict to inmate. we are getting a lot of younger kids who are not used to prison life. >> the convicts wants to mind his own business. he don't get off on other people business. what he sees he keeps to himself. it's none of his business. one that will tell in a monday, they are rats. >> i'm a straight convict. not an inmate. >> robert spears was the typical convict. he had done a lot of time and lived very distinctly by the convict code. he was very accepting of his situation. he didn't complain or blame anybody. he was a tough guy. >> when i came to prison, i was a kid. i had to do what i had to do to survive. i am not proud of the things i had to do. some people had to be hurt. i have been hurt. that's just the way life is.
>> spears has served 28 years. for one, for the time i lost, i would leave my kids. you know me. i was in the army and i don't want him growing up thinking i am in prison. if i could go back, i would live a different life. this is what i have done. you can just change it. you know what i mean? right now, you just don't hurd yourself. you hear the people who actually care. no matter how, i know that i'm a cold-blooded person.
>> he appears to be a man who is more than a convict, we didn't see what unfolded between him and a young inmate. at first glance, josh served 20 years on seven counts of armed robbery and he was the type of inmate old cons like spears despise. >> i was here for approximately two weeks and i came and they put me on a military segregation. my past behavior was battery and the robbery cases and beating up staff. >> get the cable fixed. >> if you want me to call in josh, i will go by josh. his name to me, i met his father years ago.
his real dad. we wasn't tight. we respected each other and heard about little josh and what he was doing and how he was getting in trouble and stuff. >> what's it done like? >> he is really just a lonely kid. he wants to be tough, but he wants to know that someone cares about it. he got to calling me dad. i am old enough to be his dad. >> i'm hoping i can pull him up and make him see that they will do this. they will take your time. if you are ignorant, they have something for you. >> staying out of trouble and earning every minute of good time is the difference between getting out in years or 20. and that's especially important. >> my fiance was 4 1/2 months pregnant with twins when i
caught this case. i haven't seen him for the past four or five months. i never have been able to hold him or nothing. >> josh reminds me a lot of me when i was his age. i know what he's going through. he thinks he has to prove something. he was still running his mouth a little bit. i told him you can't do that in here. if you do, one of the two things are going to happen. you will hurt someone or end up getting hurt. >> he has been giving me good advice since i have known him. he said stay out of trouble. >> don't look for trouble. stay away from it. >> about halfway through the stay at indiana, josh harrison stepped into the middle of trouble. during a shake down of his dorm, officers found a nine-inch knife hidden among his possessions. he said he was considering using it on another inmate, one convicted of killing his cousin.
>> he is going to try to come with his dumb story. you can believe that. they were going to do something. he knows i am not going to let no one do noing to him. in his heart he has to prove he is tough. he is like me. he feels a lot of pain, but he is covering it up by trying to show violence. that's all that is. >> when robert found out that josh had been caught with a knife, he wanted to talk to him before josh went into lock up. we were filming and following robert up there and i'm expecting a nice father-son chat. and robert just lit into him. >> you think you're funny? you are a straight idiot. where did you get the knife? why did you get it? >> from my cousin. >> what are did i tell you way ahead of time. let god take care of that. it ain't your business to take care of that, man. do you want someone raising your
two kids calling someone else dad? >> no. >> that was stupid, man. if i can get ahold of him, i would whoop you just for that reason and try to knock your teeth out because i care about you, boy. not to hurt you, but to show you that you are hitting it at times. you have a head. you can't tell me you are stupid because you are not. if you was, i would cut loose a long time ago. >> this is prison life, josh was not going to get it any other way. this is how robert knew how to parent. >> i don't know about you, boy. you hurt my feelings. you let me down. i thought you was going to come through. i told you time and time again to listen and i will keep you out of trouble and get you out of here. there is a part of you trying to be that tough guy. >> it was hard core tough love. at the very end of this, robert basically said i love you, man.
let me know if you need anything. >> a lot of love. do whatever you go. stay out of trouble. >> love you. >> see you later, man. it straight idiot, man. if i could hit him in his mouth, i would. >> while harrison was waiting for a disciplinary hearing, he got an additional write up for slapping another inmate. as a result of the two infractions, harrison lost 180 days of good time and given a year and a half in segregation. that means he will be separated from the general population, including the one man who might be his best hope for some day getting out of prison. >> josh is a little bit wild. he is not a convict. he's just a kid that got no understanding. he's mad at the world right now. he thinks the world owes him and that's another thing.
we make our own choices in life. you live your in here and you don't try to change, you will live it out there and society will not accept that whatsoever. due to mature subject matter, fewer discretion is advised. msnbc takes you behind the walls of the most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now, the scenes you have never seen. lockup raw.