tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC May 18, 2015 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT
website. msnbc.com/politicsnation. life is about trying to do for more thnç yourself. your character is measured. if you invest in things and people and children with no direct benefit in sight for yourself. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. will iraq kill jeb bush? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. fighting over the weekend has put iraq back on the front pages. isis forces took bagramadi. meanwhile back here in the states the presidential candidates toss and turn. will someone tell them why they
fought that radar? and will the voters have like someone who wants to double down on a terrible bet to begin with? elsewhere, hillary clinton heads left. is this the smart move? is it smart to leave the center to republicans? or could she be that's right the republig's are too far right to grab the center. later, we'll talk about character and the great hollywood round table will join us to talk about the last seconds of mad men. first, terrorism analyst evan coleman. after weeks of fighting the iraqi city ramadi fell, causing 100,000 iraqis to flee for their very lives. it is 60 mile west of baghdad. there it is on the map. it serves as the headquarters for the iraqi military in anbar province. also this weekend, u.s. special forces pulled off a daring raid in syria pulling off a high value leader and taking his wife into custody after an intense firefight.
there were no american casualties. the target of that operation was abu sayyaf who siphoned off gas. it is lks news to many in this country. jeb bush used it as an opportunity to slam president obama. >> it is encouraging that one of the senior isis leaders has been killed if it is been confirmed and kudos to the special forces the best in the world. having said that, this administration created the void that created this emerging cal fate that is far bigger than anything before and there is no long term strategy on how to deal with it. is it smart or even true? i should start with is it true to stay reason we have trouble with isis is that we didn't fight iraq war long enough. >> it is chutzpah in a way i can't say. particularly in the wake of the
fall of ramadi, let's not make a miss team of there is no doubt whatsoever what created the void and the power vacuum that led to the creation of isis which happened in 2006 when president george w. bush was in power. that was the 2003 invasion of iraq under false pretenses. and again the invasion of iraq was not merely a failure of intelligence. that's only real a small part of it. it was a failure of leadership. anyone who does not recognize that you have to wonder whether or not someone like that would make a good leader for the united states. more importantly, how could the brother of george w. bush say that? when it is quite clear the power vacuum was the invasion of iraq and the terrible de-baathification campaign that was sponsored and pushed by the president, by dick cheney and by others. if you're out there and telling people here in the united states
that the u.s. needs to get reengaged in iraq and you can't recognize that the invasion of iraq in 2003 was one of the single greatest policies, greatest blunders of american history, you do not deserve to be president. that's it. period. >> you can't ask any more than that. thank you for joining us. joining us now we have ron christie joining us now. he worked for vice president dick cheney. and of course we've got david corn, thank you. i'm jumping ahead. i thought he said everything he had to say. let me go to you. should we have stayed in iraq longer? that seem to be the bush argument. we came out too soon. we let isis be created. it seem the american people hate the idea of a ground war in iraq. >> i think there two different issues. the bush administration laid the ground wovg working with alma leaki.
it was safe in tikrit. if you look at what happened in the vacuum of removing u.s. forces, undertaken not by the 43rd president fwirk 44th president, i think you saw a lot more chaos. do we want another grounds war? no. >> what were our soldiers supposed to stay there for if not to fight? >> they should have stayed there to provide assistance, intelligence -- >> i think you're trying to get it both ways. >> wait a second. what happened in korea? did we immediately leave korea? no. >> the iraq government asked us to leave when the bush and cheney were in control of the government and the u.s. military forces. they did not negotiate a status of force agreement which would be necessary to keep our troops there. they couldn't do it them kicked the can down the road and obama came in and he couldn't do it either.ç
they turned around and said the problem you is didn't deep troops in. evan had it right. why should we relitigate what happened in 2003? it was the most consequential foreign policy decision of the past 12 if not 24 hours. fox news was the one who asked jeb about this. i hate to say life is not fair. when your last name is bush and you want to be president this is a question you have to be asked and you have to answer it. he couldn't answer the question. now he is coming up with a completely made up version of history. that everything was fine. before the war people said you go in there. you're going to create chaos. wolfowitz, cheney they all said nothing to worry about. >> facts matter my friend. the fact of the matter is when the bush administration left. it was relatively calm in iraq.
they did have a democratically elected -- >> 200,000 civilians were killed in the five years up to that point. >> how do you deal with the fact most of the leadership with isis are people thrown out of the iraqi military by u.s. policy? how do you accept that fact? >> i don't accept that fact. who is to blame? >> hole on guys. i think the fact is who is time to have blame for that? i think the fact that you're going to blame the people, "a," in iraqi government who allowed them to come into power. and "b," i'm going on blame this administration. i am. >> the de-baathification was the policy of the bush administration. >> correct. >> you asked me what i thought led to the rise of isis. what led to the rise of isis. >> who leads it? >> a bunch of terrorists is who leads isis. they're not terrorists, chris. they're not terrorists. >> who are they. >> in the most brutal -- >> the generals of the army. >> and i'm saying they're
terrorists that are terrorizing the -- it's a fact. >> whose policy was it to throw these people out of the iraqi government? just answer one question and we'll move on. whose policy was to it get rid of all the sunnis in the government, throw them out and single them out to the country? >> the coalition of nearly 39 countries around the world including the united states. >> you want to rewrite your own facts. how can you -- >> de-baathification was issued -- >> multiple choice responses on the iraq war. they seem to have jarred anybody in the 2016 field. today "the new york times" columnist said the 2003 invasion was not a failure of intelligence, as many republican candidates have been saying. but a failure of leadership. the iraq war wasn't an innocent mistake under taken on intelligence that turned out to be wrong. america invaded iraq because the bush administration wanted a war. the public justifications were nothing but pretexts and
falsified pretexts at that. we were in a fundamental sense lied into the war. the term wmds was used to conflate chemical weapons with nuclear weapons. how the they insinuated that iraq was somehow behind the 9/11 attacks and how they were pressurized to justify the war. that seem a pretty tough call. >> and? >> and i don't agree with it. i don't think you can say that the bush administration lied their way to get into a war. not when you have people of the likes of senator clinton who voted for the use of military force. was she lying then? why don't we ask the question. >> she was looking at the intelligence -- >> wait. the claim of a nuclear war. do you think that was the reason we went in there? do you think -- answer one straight question. >> i answered the question. i think president bush believed there were weapons of mass destruction.
do you believe -- your guy. >> i also work for george bush and i can't say to you whether or not he said -- >> no. you don't know whether cheney was telling truth. he said they're -- >> you asked me whether i thought george bush took country to war on nuclear weapons and i said you would have to ask him. >> i don't know what that means. he said that's why we went to war. >> of course he was telling the truth. >> no he wasn't. >> of course he was. >> let's look now. >> the iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten america and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons. we're concerned that iraq is exploring ways of using these uavs for weapons targeting the u.s. >> he has the weapons and the delivery system. you're saying he didn't think that was the truth? >> of course he believed that
was the truthful that's yes went to the united nations. that's what he believed to be true. >> this is not about what george w. bush believed. dick cheney and others including the president got out time and time again. they made statements that were not based on failed intelligence. they were based on nothing. a good example is when dick cheney said iraq has aluminum tooks they can use. that was not bad intelligence. all the experts in the u.s. government said those go tubes were not being used for this. but cheney went out and made the case. he was not telling the truthful he had reason tt believe that was not good intelligence. he said mohammed aat a had that. even though they said that was not true. >> here's more of this. >> about what the leaders do.("ti )sp'n and bush believe. let's hear more about what cheney said he believed. in march right before he said that saddam hussein had
reconstitution its nuclear weapons. >> we know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons and we believe he has reconstituted nuclear weapons. >> so this claim doesn't show up in the intelligence whempl did you find it? >> i didn't find it. i'm a gles i'm a domestic adviser. they are trying to do the best they can to protect america. i believe that. i don't think they lied. >> why did they say things that were false again and again and again? wasn't that they are reading bad intelligence given to them they were ignoring bad intelligence given to them. >> that's your belief. >> that's not my belief. that is a fact. >> let's take a look at marc rubio today in his discussions with chris wallace. let's look at -- we don't have
that yet. my concern is the same mentality is still out there now. the people who don't want negotiations with iran. here's the latest republican. the difficulty is to deal with the past statements saying on fox news yesterday, that the invasion of iraq was not a mistake. >> the world is a better place because saddam hussein is not there. i wouldn't characterize it. i don't understand the question you're asking. >> knowing as we do as we sit here in 2015. >> a president cannot make a decision on what someone might know in the future. >> that's what i'm asking you. was it a mistake? >> it was not a mistake for the president to go into iraq based on the information he was provided as president. if the president had known there were no weapons of mass destruction at the time you still would have had to deal with saddam hussein but the process would have been different. >> why would the people in the administration like wolf wits and the others talk about going into iraq from the very beginning, long before a 9/11.
why did they want to go to iraq? >> you would have to ask them. i can't get in their minds. >> i can explain that. for years, paul wolfowitz and others had talked about getting rid of iraq. that there would be democracy throughout the reason that would help israel. they came to believe actually a very bizarre conspiracy theory that al qaeda didn't matter. that actually saddam hussein was behind all the acts of violence. 93 world trade center bombings. the bombing of the uss cole. they came in with that perspective so when the counter terrorism adviser said listen, we have to do something. he said bin laden doesn't matter. they wanted all focus on iraq. up until 9/11. and then they saw that as their opportunity to bounce even though saddam hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. >> and the reason i keep going back to the strain of how we got into this.
there is a consistent pattern. the people that wanted that war in the worst way. the neo cons, so-called wolfowitz, certainly klann and all the people that write op-ed pieces seem to say we had to go into that war and they came up with reasons to fight it. it is the same crowd of people that wanted to go. they don't want any kind of approach with the iranians. they have a consistent impulsive desire and to make war. in a never ending campaign. they will never outlive. that's why i have a problem with that thinking. that you say we don't get to the bottom of it. why did they take to us iraq? that's the same reason they want to take us into damascus and why they want to have permanent war with iran. my concern continues. thank you both. coming up, as the republicans shift right. hillary clinton is tacking left.
that are the democrats trying bait progressives against hillary clinton. some trouble making. that's coming up. plus, character. who has got it today? dade brooks will be with us. and everyone has something to say about the fin at of madd men. a couple of stars from the show. check out fusion and find out why ford is the brand more people buy, and buy again. i like the grill. the sexy look to it. epa-estimated 37 miles per gallon on the highway. are you serious? fusion is amazing. my opinion of ford has dramatically changed. take the ecoboost challenge at your ford dealer. and for a limited-time get a fusion with zero for sixty plus one-thousand bonus cash plus seven-fifty cash if you own a ford or qualifying competitive vehicle.
jeb bush is looking out for his right flank. he said he doesn't believe same sex marriage is a right. and he said marriage between a man and a woman is a sack ram and regardless of how the supreme court rules he will be a stalwart supporter of. he said it is hard to imagine why thousands of years of history are being changed at time warp speed.
there's something wrong when ceos make 300 time more than the typical worker. thmrd is something wrong when a third of all black men face the prospect of prison during their lifetimes. it is time to end the era of mass incarceration. we can't wait any longer for a path to full and equal citizenship. >> what voters are looking for is someone who will be a clem for every day people. for young people that's debt-free college. that is finding that job after you graduate. >> i don't know who came one that. hillary clinton looked great. we know where she stands. whoever came one that phrase, everyday people should think of something else to do for a living. that was hillary clinton and her campaign manager throwing a little red meat to the democratic base. and since the nousment for president, the campaign is going
to the left. wall street pay, rallying african-americans on prison reform rallying his hispanics on immigration. and student debt which is very popular with millennials. today she hit the stump when where she renewed her stance on wall street. the deck is still stacked at the top. the top 25 hedge fund managers together made more money than all the kindled garden teachers in america. >> this is all big news of course. the "washington post" front page is all about the tack to the left that clinton is running as the most liberal democratic front runner in decades. how far is too far? the front page of the new york times reported that republicans are trying to bait the progressive wing in an effort to push her further left. why is she doing this? is she a lefty or isn't she? howard fineman is the global
director. and ann reported that front page story in the "washington post." and this is a tough one. i'll ask to you get into this. i have found hillary clinton to be a moderate democrat. i know that is not a popular term of in other words people who work hard and play by the rules. make abortion safe, legal and rare. always appealing to the center left and slightly closer to the center and even to appealing to people in the very center. is she not there anymore? was she not there? what you whatever is she really? >> she is really a constitutionally a pragmatist. >> a political pragmatist or policy? >> both. but for the most part that does mean that you end up in the middle of things. you will try to compromise and figure out what deal might actually be done. and usually that deal ends up being in the middle. however, on foreign policy her reputation for being hawkish is makes it seem i think on some of the liberal issues, excuse
me, on the social issues she seems more liberal than she might seem in other respects. people are automatically in their heads comparing to it hey, wait a minute, she voted for the iraq war. >> how is she not a traditional democrat, guns and butter. liberal on civil rights issues, any kind of social issue. very liberal on spending and things like that. government role activism. and hawkish on farm policy. scoop jack, henry jackson, hubert humphrey that was hitting all the points in the party. where is the profile encouraged. you know what? i'm not here with the movement here. i'm on my own like bill clinton did with sister solda. my sense is from hearing the campaign chairman sketch this out. >> you talk to him. >> yes.
the main tactical concern correct me if i'm wrong, trying to create passion. especially among young voters whose passion really drove barack obama's go campaigns. >> that was about him. >> yes. wait a minute. but they're looking at issues and ways to do that. i think on social issues they're going to go way left in traditional term as ann was saying. whether it is gay marriage or immigration. social issues broadly defined. gay marriage immigration punishment militarization of the local police. that whole range of social issues. hillary will go way left. i think she'll be somewhat more cautious on xhemic issues. on foreign policy she will stay cautious. >> suppose she says road to citizenship. you'll be a real american if you follow rules. then you go about incarceration. you get into the justice system.
if a young man breaks the law, what do you do? you don't just say we'll give you a pass because it is a first offense. that's been tried. something more sophisticated that works. if he is back on the streets commits the crime again. you haven't solved any crime at all. just one more crime situation. is there a price to pay if you're the mayor de blasio in new york, you're running colorado, you're running in nevada, you're running in ohio. does that sell? does this very liberal position sell? >> they're betting that it sells for long enough. >> through november 16th. >> well, during the primary period here. >> she has the primary. >> she can't look like she's taking that for granted. she got -- >> you think she has to tack left tactically to catch up to elizabeth warren. >> certainly elizabeth warren is in the rear view mirror. >> and people will buy someone patently following the second. >> no. i don't think elizabeth warren
will run and i think i also think that for right now there's a passion and a sentiment that she represents which to an extent she is now inheriting and that's a no vote to hillary clinton. that's bad for her. >> if she runs again, bernie sanders and webb. you think it is very important for her to go left. >> and it is important because she has a piece together some version of the obama coalition. and each one of these speaks to some part of that coast guard. >> as ann reported they have to get the millennials excited. they'll tack left on the theory that it won't kill them in the general election. >> washington, d.c.ne there's one thing missing. the key was opposition to the iraq war. hillary clinton is not credible. she voted for it and she still comes across as a hawk. >> there is no other --
>> the young people first of all, the youngest of the millennials, if you believe the polls. foreign policy isn't even on their radar screen. this he don't feel threatened. paradoxically. that's not the number one issue with them of it's not. climate change -- >> and there is no other external issue. >> climate change is a much bigger çdeal. >> can i break it to you? it is with me. >> i know. >> howard fineman ann, great front page story. stirs a lot of conversation. up next character. which of the 2016 presidential candidates has it? which ones don't? david brooks of the new york times joins us. the network that monitors her health. the secure cloud services that store her genetic data the servers and software on a mission to find the perfect match.
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generation needs more honesty and humility. he explores the lives of president dwight d. eisenhower, dorothy day and five star general george c. marshall and how life's stumbles can ultimately be the building blocks of success. i was especially taken i always liked this. you think of it as character. character is constancy. sticking to what you really believe no matter how much the wind blows against you. and ike didn't take us into indochina in '64 and he didn't go along with the clamor for war in the late '50s. he fought against the industrial military complex being pushed by jack kennedy and rockefeller. he was constant in his character. tell me about your views as you shaped the book? >> i would say that started from the fact that he had an inner core that was even below politics. he had a problem with it. at night during the war when he
was president he was up nights. anxiety attacks, blood pressure spiking. he was a hater filled with anxiety. he knew he couldn't rule fromç anger and anxiety. towed project cheerful confidence to do job. he defeated his own anger and his own passion and he created a persona which was steady is that constant. and that led to a policy which was balance asked moderate and not dangerous. you write individuals are strong but they're not self-sufficient to defeat sin you need help from the outside. so let me ask but marshall. you know the guys who got credit for winning the war against nazis ike got it in europe. and the red army side. but marshall was this guy held back in washington by fdr and he did the staff work and he made it all work. >> yeah. he was the organizer of victory as they called him. he decided that he was ambitious but he was going to combat that
ambitiousness by never putting himself above the army. so 1943 or so, he said would you like to run d-day invasion? and marshall would have loved to have done it. instead he had this code for himself. the code was i'll never put myself above. he said my own personal ambitions should haveç no bearing on your decision. do you what's best for and you the country. roosevelt asked him four times. four times marshall said it is not about me. bits you. that's what made marshall who he was. he was probably the most admired person. not just people far away but up close. he is dying energy his 80s. churchill comes to see him. he sees marshall shrunk down and churchill is just weeping. this great big powerful man is shrunk down. that's the reverence of the man. >> last week you said this about george bush and his dizzying stumbling of the iraq war.
>> i served personally. a little fraternal loyalty. i'm sure he was torn on that. >> so what's character when you're the brother of a president and the son of a president and people have a hunch about you. my hunch about jeb was he was more his father's son than his brother's brother. apparently the way he's been walking this out, the view of his iraq war experience. how do you look at a character not just political positioning a >> i think what you have to do, what we look for in politicians, there is something they won't sacrifice for their career. i have a friend who hires a lot of people. one of the things he asked, name a time that you will the truth and it hurt you. he wants to see they can put their character above their job. talk to a lot of politicians. this he get so into the public and the public campaign, every meeting is about them. every product they're selling. they get hollowed out inside. if we get a president who is hollowed out inside. they'll tack with the wind,
whatever is convenient for the sxhoemt throng commitment there's just vanish away. that's what i look for. >> i love that scene where is the u in you? where is the part that doesn't go with the wind? >> one of my favorite characters was francis, she saw a fire. she watched hundreds of people die. and she spent the next 50 years of her life with worker safety, worker safety, she organized the new deal. she could have lost everything. she wouldn't compromise on the core conviction. >> road to character. this book is doing great as it should. david brooks thanks for joining us. up next, after that famously controversial sopranos ending, the hottest show today, mad men goes out on top. everyone has an opinion on what happened. especially in the last few seconds. the roundtable. a hollywood roundtable joins me
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authorities found no evidence of gunshot damage to the train that derail near philadelphia but they have not ruled out an object hitting that train. 170 people remain in custody in waco, texas following the brawl between biker gangs that left nine people dead. bond is set at $1 million each. president obama traveled to camden new jersey, and praised the community policing. he announce ad ban on certain equipment to police saying it can intimidate people. now back to "hardball."
>> don, listen to me. what did you ever do that was so bad? >> i broke all my vows. i scandalized my child. took another man's name and made nothing of it. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was don draper confessing his sins in last night's series finale of mad men. it offered a kaleidoscopic finale. let's watch. >> new day. new ideas. a new you. ohm! ohm!
♪ ♪ i would like to buy the world a home and furnish it with love ♪ ♪ grow apple trees and honey bees ♪ ♪ and snow white turtle doves ♪ ♪ i would like toç teach the world to sing in perfect harmony ♪ ♪ i'd like to buy the world a coke and keep it company ♪ ♪ >> so did don draper lose everything only to discover his gift? and one of the greatest bits of advertising genius of the 20th century? richard summer played harry crane on mad men. great to see you.
sal, we love you, buddy. tim johnson, editor, and the editor at the wall street junior. i'm catholic. what i found in the movie was a period of confession to peggy, the one person he really had a commitment to. he valued. looked up to him sxefl offered up his sins for the first time in the show. he messed around on his wife. roo indiana relationships. hadn't made much of himself morally in his life. out of this came the answer looks and his recovery. and the comic al sense, he went back to commercializing even the crazy thing on the left coast. >> i think mad men talked to us about things material and things meaningful. and ultimately we see what is several the meaningful. >> let's me to go brian. you disappeared in a phone booth in the village somewhere. we were all worried about you. what's happened to sal, the poor guy?
>> i would like to think sal doing okay in the village. >> what do you think about this, my catholic theory on this whole thing that this confession a kind of an absolutein. >> i think you might have a point. i saw the episode. i'm filming a new series, "scream." i was rushing from the set to watch the final else and i was really taken back. i was expecting something completely different. "mad men" was so dark and this had so much hope in it. i love when don had the great scene when he was hugging that man that was breaking down. you could see he was really empathizing with him. then last twist. somehow, because peggy gives that little germ, don't you want to work on coca-cola? then the next thing, that iish grin, that knowing grin that only don can do. then you matter song. oh, he's back. that's what i felt. that's what i felt. so brilliantly matches mark nip
lats his audience. what you think will happen doesn't happen. i just loved it. >> here's a scene from your character. harry crane. plus the final scene, let's watch it together. >> let's go. i'm starving. >> she is not coming. she has work to do. >> do you know who i was supposed to have lunch with? >> someone important. >> doesn't mean anything mean anything to you. >>? here. this will hold you over. i'll meet you by the elevator. >> he acts like we're the three musketeers. we've never had lunch. i just wanted to say that i'm very happy for you. and everyone will miss you who doesn't hate you for getting that big job. >> you're doing fine. keep it up. you'll be a creative director by 1980. >> that sounds like a long time. >> i'm telling you. it will happen. they have on get used to the idea. someday people will brag that they worked with you.
>> unbelievable. there are moments like that, where i just i'm overwhelmed where i say how can this guy who has been such a dinge all through movie come through as the wonderful comment he can give to someone. having worked with you to a woman who had always been insecure about her creative ability. >> you know i think often about the opposite trajectories that harry and pete had. harry started as this nice relatable guy. and ended where he ended in that quote that whack and mild, and pete starting as the villain and ending as the most magnanimous guy in the finale at all. and i think it was just fun to watch that journey. that vincent created with matt on pete. >> how about your guy? you're mr. television. like fred friendly. you're introducing everybody.
you're saying i bring in half the money. why don't i get any respect? you're the new guy. the new talent. >> he was the new guy but he was the only one who knew anybody else. he knew that he could let it swing in that office. they couldn't get rid of him. he was the guy with the contacts. >> yeah. you're also the guy with the computer. the big compute per you brought in. let me to go ted johnson. some people find happiness in work. i certainly do when i come to work every morning. i'm very lucky to have this position in life. they found happiness. and others benny was never into work. and then roger ends up having fun in fun. his happiness is in happiness in a french restaurant with an older woman his age. some people need work and love it. some people need something else. i love that. >> i think that's one of the gifts of this show. is that you had this fun loving atmosphere on top of some
serious life issues that it dealt with week after week. and i think that is what really drew people to it. it was the interweaving of these characters in their lives. their work lives and their personal lives. at its heart, this show was a show about advertising. and it ends with that coke ad. i just thought it was kind of genius. and one of them was -- ♪ >> so it went all around the world. things get better with coke if you don't know zulu. and up next, what did "mad men" say about our time? we'll talk about gender issues.
messy. they are the natural born enemy of the way things are. yes, ideas are scary and messy and fragile. but under the proper care, they become something beautiful. chris christie is out there. still pushing the possibility of running for president. he's up in new hampshire where he gave a speech about foreign policy and questioned president obama's leadership on global issues like the rise of isis. russia's belligerence and what he call the iranian menace. >> all these things are happening because american power is in retreat and we backed away
with from the principles that made us the source of strength and stability. >> he also broke with rand paul calling for a full suspension of the patriot act. whensaying when it comes to funding terrorism our government is not the enemy. we'll be right back. thanks for coming. we want a spirited performance. who offers the most horsepower? lincoln mkc. we also want clever thinking in a tight spot. anyone offer hands-free in and out park assist? lincoln mkc. bra-vo. it's the final days of the lincoln luxury uncovered event. lease mkc for $329 a month. and for a limited time competitive owners and lessees get one-thousand dollars bonus cash.
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her realizing she's happy working. she could have retired. >> yes. and she had a man. >> what about peggy. she seemed like somebody that is as confident and brilliant, she wanted approval of men. >> still. >> she did. she ultimately needed a relationship t*q satisfied in life. >> talk to me about dealing with women. you're rougher that a good would be today. dealing with relationships in an office place you're thinking? >> i hope so. for sure. i know times i was most accosted on the streets. people had a lot to say about them. but the most accosted i never got was when they didn't hire joan in season two when he first started the tv department. when joan read scripts and was smart and said, you're right.
i do need somebody to help me. >> because it had to be a man? >> yes. >> sal, my friend, in the age when nobody was out. nobody was out. you had to play a sort of macho sinatra type character over the top. heterosexual enthusiasm. va-va-voom every time you saw a woman. what was it like to play that which everybody had to pay play back in the '60s. >> everybody has to pay that in some way, shape or form. yes, when guys were making jokes he had to play along in a big way to keep his job. back then you can be fired for being gay and guess what, you still can be. we have a long way to go for equality. >> how about when you said you like to keep your private life to yourself.
just when you think he's going to be a good guy. don does it again. assumes you're promiscuous. >> yes, also in conjunction with a client. his hands are tied. it wasn't all on don. that's how things would have happened back then. unfortunately they can still happen that way now. that's what i love about the show. it held a mirror up to the country and said look how far we have to come and have to go? >> one of the heroes of the show. sally draper. looks like he's going to be a rock. dying of cancer. it's real. her beautiful mother. her daughter comes in and takes over. >> the transformation of sally draper and how she adopts to a
very tough domestic life. it a tough testament the actress who plays here. it's not an easy role. she grew up on this show. i think that is -- she's a stand-out performance. i think we have to watch her in the future definitely. i love how this final episode ended. it was on the hopeful note that sally draper, her two brothers were going to make sure things were okay for them. >> what a night. thank you for being part of this wonderful event. we'll be right back after this. with two ways to earn on purchases, it makes a lot of other cards seem one-sided.
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you can call me shallow... but, i have a wandering eye. i mean, come on. national gives me the control to choose any car in the aisle i want. i could choose you... or i could choose her if i like her more. and i do. oh, the silent treatment. real mature. so you wanna get out of here? go national. go like a pro.
that's "hardball with chris matthews" all in with chris may hays is on right now. >> tonight on "all in." a texas strip mine turns into a war zone. up to 170 now face murder-related charges after five gangs face a shootout with police. we'll go live to waco with the latest and plans to demilitary demilitaryize american pliz. outdate on the australian politician threatening the lives of johnny depp's dogs? and did j