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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 28, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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because he dares to think for himself. i think he deserves credit for his guts. let's see if the republican peanut gallery roars as loud. the republicans want the white house the first thing they have to do is confess the horrible decision they had the last time they had it. hillary clinton called the war a mistake, i hope she means it. rand paul and the republicans haven't gotten that far. rand paul will be here by the way friday to play hardball. thanks for being with us. all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on all in. >> they corrupted the business of worldwide soccer to serve their interests and enrich themselves. >> the united states takes on the most powerful sports organization in the world. rests over a dozen men. >> greed that drove them to use and exploit their positions for
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cash. >> a set back for the president's policy. rand paul takes on his party. >> isis exists and grew stronger because of the hawks in our party who gave arms. >> my interview with rashida jones about the documentary she produced about porn, the internet and the girl next door. >> it's a cultural society that allows for any girl to feel like it's a good choice. >> it's the massive multibillion dollar organization that runs the most popular sport on the planet, and tonight it's at the center of the global prosecution, it's been functioning as an international criminal cindy cat for years.
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fifa has long been viewed as wildly corrupt with rampant allegations of bribery involving top fifa officials. despite a widespread perception of flagrant corruption. fifa has long been able to operate without impunity. loretta lynch along with officials from the fbi and irs. along with corruption charges against 14 people. including an official alleged to have taken $9 million in bribes. >> these individuals threw these organizations engaged in bribery to decide who would televise games.
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where the games would be held and who would run the organization overseeing organized soccer worldwide. >> swiss lawn officials entered the hotel in zurich, switzerland and arrested six top fifa officials who were staying at the hotel ahead of fifa's annual meeting. at about the same time in the u.s., fbi raided the fifa headquarters. its president jeffrey webb is among the indicted. and u.s. officials saying their investigation has just begun. he was re-elected to a fifth term on friday, it does not plan to delay that election, he said, we welcome the actions and investigations by the u.s. and swiss authorities and believe it will help to reinforce measures that fifa has already taken to route out any wrongdoing in football.
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questions are being raised about the 2018 world cup. as well as the 2022 world cup, which fifa awarded quite con electroverse ulee to qatar. stadiums are being built by migrant workers in slave conditions, hundreds of thousands who have died already. separate from the u.s. led investigation. at a press conference following the indictment today. a fifa spokesman said the plan to hold those events in russia and qatar have not changed. >> it will be played in russia and qatar. russia and qatar will be played, this is what is fact today. i don't go into speculation what will happen after tomorrow. i can't tell you. more not less.
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>> figure the center -- it's the most powerful sports figure in the world. a searing new documentary from jeremy shaft. details many of the charges leveled against fifa. they have witnessed bribery firsthand. >> i witnessed the team offering different members money in exchange for their vote. >> you were there? >> i was there in the room, yes. >> how much money? >> 1.5 million. >> per? >> per vote. >> to three different members. >> what did they say? >> they agreed. they agreed i mean, there wasn't
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-- they didn't take much convincing, let's put it that way. >> the reporter will join me in a moment. a great book, dance with the devil. the big surprise here is not the allegations embedded. the shock is that it's happened. that some accountability has been brought to the organization. that's the thing that everybody around the world, around the world tonight and all day, people going, i can't believe they did it, they've arrested these people? >> it's become a cliche over the last two decades about fifa being corrupt. it's an eye role. people in the international olympic committee look at fifa and say, you guys are corrupt. seth bladder is so identified
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with this corruption. this was the headline of the new york times today. fifa officials arrested on corruption charges, seth bladder isn't among them. it had to be made clear. the surprise to me is two things, the first is that fifa, any multibillion dollar global corporation is being held to account for their corruption. that in and of itself is a shocker, something that drops the jaw. the second part i think we need to look at is that they were able to keep this so secret and do this in a way that even leading members of fifa said, that they thought this year's fifa congress would be boring or even more boring than usual. and yet the united states was able to pull off a transatlantic sting involving swiss authorities, using anti-terror statutes given to the justice department after 9/11 to go after fifa, i mean, this isn't just a crazy story. i mean, this is a movie for goodness sakes.
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>> i want to be clear here, there's so many things to unpack here. first just to reiterate the human stakes here, at some level, i'm a sports fan, i'm not a huge soccer fan, i heard about fifa forever. it took me a while to get it, okay, well, they're bribing each other about where they build their stadium. comparing the death toll, that's one worker death for various international sporting events. that is qatar, that's the 2022 world cup. i think it's almost 2,000 if i'm not mistaken, those are human beings, basically in situations of slave labor who are being driven to build stadiums in the
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desert, essentially on this rush job, because it appears or possibly they were bribed, fifa was bribed into awarding them the games, that's the real human stakes here. >> you could not imagine a worse country to host the world cup than qatar, a place that's 125 degrees during the summer. they've already said they're going to play the world cup in the fall. that's not even the most serious part. the most serious part is that the world cup in qatar is being built by slavers, basically. it's being built under conditions of slavery, conditions that are so dire, as robert silverman wrote today after the recent environmental catastrophe in nepal, they're preventing the workers from going home for funerals, not giving them their passports, forcing them to stay and do their work. truly monstrous acts. i'll put on top of that, everything i've witnessed in brazil over the last two years. the 250,000 people displaced, the entire communities that were shunted aside to build stadiums. fifa is a neo-liberal trojan
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horse that goes into different countries and does whatever they need to do, there are interests in those countries that benefit greatly, while populations get slammed, you even had people in brazil by the millions protesting fifa. i had a friend in brazil who said to me, the word fifa was as awful as the word fema in new orleans after hurricane katrina. that's the steaks that we're looking at, fifa's corruption has a real human cost. >> that's important to keep in mind the story. always a pleasure. as promised, joining me now, jeremy shaft. i want to say, kudos for just phenomenal reporting on the story, you've been doing it for years, the e-60 story is fantastic. let's start with a basic question, this gets to the heart of it, we were talking today like what is fifa, in a legal sense. what is this entity, a corporation, is it a nonprofit, a global club? what is it? >> it is a nonprofit, it is registered as such in switzerland. along with 65 other
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international sports organizations, chris, and local organizations and regional organizations in switzerland, one of the problems here is that the swiss system does not allow for vigorous oversight of organizations such as fifa, when we were recently in the swiss capitol to conduct interviews for our show on fifa. we spoke to a swiss parliamentarian, he wants fifa to have his designation switched from a nonprofit, that enjoys the same kind of lack of oversight as a yodeling organization to something more befitting a global billion dollar bow heamage, which is what fifa is, of course. >> you have governances to oversee a yodeling club. it has tons of -- creates tons of value, it appears from the
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allegations and some of your reporting that essentially has been basically selling off what it has to the highest bidder in the case the american charges here, this is about broadcast rights, am i right about that? >> it's about many things, we're talking about selling off the rights to play host to the world cup, because they talked about 2010 in south africa, extorting money from south africa, so it could play host to the 2010 tournament. we're talking about corruption allegations sur rounding the 2011 presidential election at fifa. sepp bladder was re-elected for a fourth term. there were a lot of corruption allegations swirling not around him in this case. we're also talking about those television rights, the marketing rights, the sponsorship rights, all the kickbacks from marketing firms that want to prophet from official fifa sakss events. this season the the first time this has happened by any means.
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in 2001 there was a scandal involving isl. after a 7-year investigation, the swiss authorities determined that isl executives had paid off sports officials at fifa and other organizations tens of millions of dollars, including more than a million and a half dollars to sepp blatter's predecessor from brazil. >> so sepp blatter who you just mentioned. resighting at oxford, a litany of the most charactered view of him, he's really seen as a bond villain. the big question today, and you heard dave talk about how the times had to note that he had
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not been indicted, is what happens to blatter, he's the guy at the center of this, can he quarantine himself from this investigation? >> that's what he's done for a long time. >> we reported a few weeks ago that he had decided it would be unwise to set foot on u.s. soil. and he's said, well, maybe i'll come to the united states next year, when perhaps the statute of limitations might have expired on some of the charges that might be brewing with this investigation. he attended 7 gold cup finals in a row in the united states after being elected president of fifa in 1998. he skipped in 2013 after the
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federal investigation started and he's said that he's going to skip this year. that being said, he's done a very good job over the years of not being caught with his hand in the koog can i jar, i think one of the good reasons for that, is frankly, i don't think he's had his hand in the cookie jar. people, even his most persistent critics will tell you, he's not someone necessarily interested in personal enrichment, in lining his own pockets, he lives very nicely indeed in zurich, he's paid a lot of money. probably 5 million u.s. dollars a year, he doesn't pay for anything, he loves power, like a true bonds villen, he's done everything he could to perpetuate that power. that being said, i'd say his position is more precarious than it has ever before been. >> i want do ask jeremy about
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the qatar games, there's a lot much speculation, you saw the represent for fifa saying, i don't know fp as of now, they're going to go on in russia and qatar. you have the death toll, you have this insane unsustainable situation that you have done incredible reporting on, and there's a real question now, is this the straw that breaks the camel's back, do they say, we're yanking the game's from qatar? >> i think it's a fair question. if you asked me last flight at this time, i would have said 100%, 2022 is going on in qatar, as sepp blatter has vowed repeatedly. he's said words to the effect, over my dead body is 2022 going to be anywhere but qatar, i think the landscape has shifted a little bit, certainly in the last 24 hours, and there might be a stronger movement ato the to actually have a revote. certainly there are provisions within fifa's charter that would justify a revote. whether the pressure becomes something that sepp blatter responds to, that's an open question. a blow to president obama's immigration initiatives open up a window for one of his would be successors.
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rands paul attacks his party's war hawks even as the republican base grows more hawkish. let's just make it 15, because that's before 16. >> that's right. i like your strategy, i like the way this is -- this is how you one pac cleans tough food better than 6 pacs of the bargain brand combined. cascade. now that's clean.
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let's just make it 15, because that's before 16. >> that's right. i like your strategy, i like the way this is -- this is how you round the rnc. ready? go. we got santorum. >> rick santorum, the sweater vest days are over, he's back with a new look and probably some new ideas, we're really not sure. all i know is, don't google him. he's former pennsylvania senator rick santorum. >> that will work. >> you got it, you'll take it? >> that's going to have some
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legs. >> will rick santorum appear in any debates or not? >> yes, many. >> you heard it first. >> michael steele was a confident man when he drew rick santorum in our draft. that confidence was at least partially born out this evening with santorum making the official announcement that he's running for president. that's another 100 points on the board for steele. it's enough for him to pull into the lead with the grand total of 300 points. we'll keep you posted on all the developments from the campaign trail in our fantasy candidate draft, you do not want to miss it. boy: once upon a time, there was a nice house that lived with a family. one day, it started to rain and rain.
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water got inside and ruined everybody's everythings. the house thought she let the family down. but the family just didn't think a flood could ever happen. the reality is floods do happen. protect what matters. get flood insurance. call the number on your screen to learn more. rand paul has a problem, okay? he's not polling particularly well in the primary race. most polls put him in sixth place. and he's often an outliar in the gop field.
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some of his most iconoclastic views on the risk of u.s. interventionism appear to be out of favor with the gop base he's courting on the trail. the latest poll, 27% of republican primary voters said national security terrorism should be the government's top priority ahead of the deficit, job creation and economic growth. that problem is only likely to grow. as isis continues to take territory and expand its reach throughout the middle east. and the more hawkish candidates crow about how it's a result of american weakness. enter rand paul's new book and his current book tour. the perfect opportunity to introduce himself to the public.
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the center has seemed to moderate his anti-immigration stance. he pulled no punches. >> isis exists and grew stronger because of the hawks in our party who gave arms indiscriminately and were snatched up by isis. the same hawks in my party loved -- they loved hillary clinton's war in libya, they just wanted more of it, libya is a failed state and a disaster. iraq really is a failed state. everything that they've talked about in foreign policy, they've been wrong about for 20 years, and yet they have somehow the gall to keep saying and pointing fingers otherwise. >> bobby jindal perhaps seeking to remind everyone he exists. hit back at rand paul, calling him unsuited to become commander in chief, has become impossible to imagine commander paul to defeat radicalism. that statement came from the state of louisiana's office of the governor, not from a political group like jindal's prin shall exploratory committee. with chris christie slamming paul's efforts to reform nsa surveillance, and lindsey graham giving the impression he's getting into the race to troll the republican senator.
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joining me now matt welch editor of reason magazine. i'm fascinated by how rand paul is playing this. because i think he's got a dilemma, which is his foreign policy views are what distinguish him from the rest of the field. at the same time, if that -- if rand paul style foreign policy was a stock, the price on that would be trading down year over year quite a bit among gop primary voters, don't you agree? >> year over year, yes, let's not forget what happened last week. all the candidates, with the exception of rand paul were stumbling over their tongues trying to figure out how to answer a simple question of, was the iraq war justified? right? the assumption that the republican base is more hawkish, this is true compared to a year ago, it's not very deep. you can say, you can foreground that security is the most important thing right now, what to do about it, is actually the most important next question, and republicans, and especially hawks haven't had good answers
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about that. the attacks on rand paul, rick santorum, compared to bernie sanders today, all this kind of stuff, they almost all don't talk about what we should be doing. they know we're against american weakness, iran, against vladimir putin, how do you get to the next step? rand paul is saying, the next steps that these people have come up with have backfired by and large, and they don't have a particularly good answer to that. i think you place this, because it's him against the hawks, one against ten, he can differentiate himself, and this will help in early states like ham happen, where you have a lot of live free and die people who are sick of war. as americans, they're pretty war weary right now. he's betting he can
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differentiate himself, when you have a sea of lindsey grahams out there who are coming out and trying to take out his knees. >> that's what i found interesting about these comments. it seemed to me, as you had the rise of isis and this more hawkish mood sweep over the congress. members of both parties frankly, and the republican party, you saw him, i think sort of trim his sales a little bit, try angulate, i'm for the air strikes against isis, we have to defeat them, which itself was a little bit of a deviation from what i would have expected from him. this to me signals the kind of doubling down, a kind of like, okay, let's have this fight. let's have this debate, this policy disagreement in the republican primary? >> let's keep in mind also that
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the provisions of the patriot act are set to expire on monday, and this is because of rand paul, the fight was happening anyways over an issue that he's -- he came to office talking about -- he's been talking about it since his first day, if you're going to be having a fight about the patriot act anyway, you may as well lump it all in. it's a fight that he has always led. i interviewed him two years ago, during the height of the syria deliberations, which he led the opposition to the syrian war and was victorious in that, he put it to me, on any given day, 80 to 20, he's outnumbered in the senate on foreign policy. he talks to people in kentucky enelsewhere, it's 80/20 in the other direction. including military personnel, who are sick of war, that's the gamble, and you're right, it is a gamble, but it's also the main differentiating factor of him. besides the fact that he's actually a radical libertarian when it comes to cutting government in ways most republicans have stopped years ago. >> that i think is true. what's happening with the patriot act right now, is particularly fascinating. it may actually last. it is surprising it's gotten to this point. it's been mismanaged by a lot of people who wanted to keep it going, they had the worst side of the argument frankly on things that, for instance the
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courts have stepped in and said are frankly unconstitutional, like bolt collection of all the cell phone metadata. do you think he's winning that argument in the republican primary, or has he outmaneuvered his opponents? >> that's a good question. andrew mccarthy who is on the opposite of this from rand paul and me and i suspect you, had a piece a few days ago, saying rand paul has won this argument. i think the argument is wrong in his point of view, but broadly in the culture he's won the argument. a majority of conservatives, republicans are against bulk surveillance, metadata collection. the people who want this to keep going on are in washington. >> matt welch. thank you. how a court case just opened up a campaign opportunity for hillary clinton. but first, my interview with actress rashida jones. >> it's like the hunger games. >> exactly. it totally is the hunger games.
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>> it's not food, it's -- >> i don't know.
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more people visit porn websites in any given month than amazon, twitter and netflix combined. it's not lucrative for most of its participants. hot girls wanted dives into the world of amateur porn. i sat down with one of the films producers to discuss the changing role of porn in our society.
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>> if a hollywood blockbuster is the top of the blockbuster. this is about people making professional amateur porn at wh lowest rung on the ladder of show business? >> i was thinking about it in rms of what it must be like for an 18-year-old girl to go to her parents or not go to her parents or to just leave and say, i'm going to pursue this thing. i feel like it was probably similar to people leaving in the '60s and '70s and going do l.a. to act. it wasn't really considered like a prestigious legitimate thing to do after high school, right? >> it was disreputable in some ways, it required a conversation with mom and dad. >> i think there's a lot of reasons it's become okay to pursue this kind of thing now. but i go think it's all about the same things hollywood's
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about, glamour, fame, quick cash, success, access. >> when you watch this film, or when you watch cuts of it, what was your relationship to what you were seeing, did you want to pause and say, please stop, please don't do this? i felt myself kind of wanting to do that at a number of points. >> the filmmakers did a really good job of pushing your comfort level. they're delicate about -- there's not really nudity in the film. there's maybe one topless shot. it's probably a disappointment for some people, but yeah, i wanted to understand the psychology of young women who would do this. and you realize, there isn't a psychology, it's not like there's a -- there's one kind of girl who does this, it's the cultural psychology which allows for any girl to feel like it's a good choice. >> what is that? >> i think i've been vocal about
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the con nation of pop culture and porn. and i think it's like, it's no longer marginal, it's no longer sub versive, taboo to be in porn. there's a lot that's good about that, but the bad side of that is that you just don't have a ton of information how you get from point a to point b, which is a successful porn star. >> documentary hot girls wanted debuts on netflix this friday. we'll have much more of my interview with rashida jones then. how one person's instagram photo can become someone else's art without any kind of permission.
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an exhibition has created something of a stir on social media. the works of art in question being sold for $90,000 each, consisted of giant screen shots of other people's instagram photos used without permission. took screen shots of them, enlarged them and printed them
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on canvas. after learning that a picture of her had been sold for $90,000. she wrote, it's just a screen shot, not a painting of my original pose, no, i did not give my permission, and the controversial artist put it up anyway. he's been making slight adjustments to other people's stuff and calling it his own. he was sued for copyright infringement after prince took pictures and made alterations and put them into his own exhibit many prince was initially ordered to destroy his pictures. he won an appeal for most of the works in question. as the new york times reported, the appeals court found that prince's court manifested an entirely different aesthetic
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from the original picture. last year they reached a private settlement for the pieces that remain in dispute. all this got me thinking about the stuff i post on instagram and i don't know who owns it. joining me now, tech tedder at boingboing.net. i'm torn, because i think we're us in this sort of world of creative commons. and boing boing has a view on intellectual property that is expansive. it seems like a jerk move on the part of richard prince. >> whether or not this is legally fair use is to me kind of beside the point. it's okay to be a jerk on the internet or in the art world, it's a cardinal sin to be a boring jerk. that's kind of what richard prince is here, he became famous and perhaps rightly so in the 1970s for appropriating images
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like the cowboy smoker from the marlboro man adses. people of our generation understand what that means and we know that back then the big cultural images of the day were controlled by gigantic corporations. that's not the case now. anyone can become an artist. >> that is the point, it's the difference between punching up and down. or sending up. it's like, here's this giant multimillion dollar tobacco company, and here's some random instagram user who i'm going to make money off of, it got me thinking of the fact that in some senses, there's a little bit of a thin line between what he's doing and what all social media companies are doing, which is they're all running restaurants in which we come in and bring the ingredients and cook the food. that's what social media is, all the content all the stuff you
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look at is just the people who the customers are making. >> to inis a graham's credit. they could have licensed this under richard prince, but they didn't. richard prince, i just -- it seems like a ripoff, when somebody who's an established well known artist who's 65 years old is selling things for $100,000 or so, watching richard prince try to do instagram is like watching your dad try to rap. unless your dad is dr. dre or ice t or kanye west. did you see how the suicide girls responded to that? they're edgy alt models. the model you referenced with the blue hair is a suicide girl, they're now selling copies of richard prince's prints for 90 bucks instead of 90,000 bucks. >> it's a hall of mirrors.
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can i go back to something you just said. instagram could have licensed these? this is a key point here, right? >> yeah, it is. >> under the terms of service, they did have the interest lecture property title on these images, because you pass them over and take them and post them on instagram, right? >> you read terms of service carefully, there's plenty of wiggle room for them to have done this, it would have been complete suicide. richard prince is trying desperately to remain relevant using techniques that made a lot of sense in the analog time when he became famous. they don't make a lot of sense now. and he's making this kind of creepy old grandfather comments on the prints that were in the gogosian show. these women have no way to respond to that. it's like picking on someone who can't respond to you. that's what feels so wrong. the beauty of the internet is that everyone has a voice. richard prince is taking their
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voices away, i think the best thing we can do is ignore him entirely. >> do you think we're going to see a situation develop in which more content, whether it's photos or things people write, posted on large platforms like this, end up being sort of reappropriated or end up being used. i know there were ad campaigns at one point that were grabbing images off of facebook, it seems to be the case. we will head toward more confrontations like that the more there are images and other contents being uploaded? >> we're entering a whole new world of copyright here, i think for those of us who are interested in experimenting in different kinds of intellectual property law, it stinks to have richard prince become the fair use story everyone's talking about. >> xeni, thanks for joining us.
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still to come, how hillary clinton is seizing an opportunity from an obama administration set back.
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there are any number of ways to get on stage at a concert. know the artist, know someone who knows the artist or you could just tweet. that was enough to get chris ratcliffe a serenade from mariah carey earlier this month. watch mariah carey deliver a career spinning performance at the bbma's, thank you, i enjoyed the moment. he responds, we're in the house for your vegas show tonight too darling, would love to have a festive moment after the show. bold but rewarded. two young women in made outfits suddenly appeared, i was blindfolded and instructed to get on the circular bed on stage, i couldn't see anything, and i could barely move, but i heard the crowd erupting. lucky for ratcliffe, there is a
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federal appeals court dealt the obama administration a set back. the u.s. court of appeals upheld a lower court's decision to delay the implementation of president obama's action while the merits are being litigated by the courts. the decision by the fifth circuit to leave the texas judge's injunction in place does not necessarily mean the obama administration will lose the larger case, that is whether they have the authority to do what they're doing, the full consideration of the underlying case on whether the obama administration exceeded its
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authority will be heard by the fifth circuit on july 6th. the justice department has decided no the to appeal the fifth circuit's interim ruling of the supreme court. they see a good chance of success on substantive issues in the lower court. the right saw the fifth circuit's temporary ruling as a big defeat for the obama administration. >> the fifth circuit court came down on the side of the public interest and said, it is not in the interest for these kind of top down fee ats to be imposed on 26 states that have objected to the costs and consequences of unfetterred open borders. >> then there is hillary clinton who may have easily refrained from commenting either way since the final legal ruling is yet to be made. interestingly to me, the former
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secretary of state chose to insert herself into this fight. fifth circuit is wrong on immigration. took steps for families, when the gop house wouldn't. must continue to fight. that's just one piece of a much larger hillary clinton strategy, which is very clearly focused on maintaining and growing what you might call the obama coalition.
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joining me now, chuck todd and christine beltran. here's what i found fascinating about this, if you go back to the time machine, times have changed. you think about bill clinton facing a similar thing in '92, when the entire strategic class of the democratic party was like, stay away from wedge issues, the idea he would have gone out of his way to tweet that, about a fifth circuit decision is incomprehensible. >> this is the guy, the only
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issue they did was the death penalty. >> in the other direction. >> in the other direction. these were the type of issues, it all goes to the point you made just before the break, which is -- this is a simple number's game. and if hillary clinton wins north of 65% of the hispanic vote, it's game, set, match. you cannot lose states like colorado, florida, frankly, virginia, people forget that it's a growing hispanic population, that has helped move virginia from its lean red area to being a full fledged right down the middle swing state, that's what this is all about pure and simple. >> just to get a look at the exit poll, obama saved 71% of the hispanic vote.
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he had a 44% spread against romney, this also seems to me like an issue, it is a wedge issue in reverse, where you can tell she thinks she's got the better part of this issue, and she's pressing at every opportunity? >> no, she's going to run with this, it makes a lot of sense for her to do that, people forget that in 2008 during the primary, hillary clinton did a lot better with latino voters than obama did. there was a big question in that primary. >> there was certainly, because people have a history with the clintons, they felt a confidence in their economic policy. she has a base she's trying to build on. among latino activists in the immigrant rights movement, those folks are angry at obama, and
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they know the only reason he's doing this is because of activist push back on him. they know they want to get him to sort of do this. hillary doesn't have the baggage of obama, so she gets a pickup on the larger latino support and try to parley that. >> that's her hope anyway. >> remember that moment? >> hillary clinton was so nervous about the politics of this issue, she was trying to take a poll during the debate. she was flip-flopping all over the place, that's what this is. >> this says so much about the fact, look at what the latino politics are. the amount of anti-immigrant sentiment has become so radical and so intense, just to be not actively hostile constitutes a fairly -- >> here's what's interesting about the politician issue. it's so intense among the people it's intense with. the calculation that's being made by the hillary clinton campaign is that it's deep but not wide. the people that are worked up against this -- >> are never going to support her, are -- deeply don't like it, but are fairly narrow part of the electorate. >> it throws a grenade into the
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republican primary. which is, you basically have the marco rubios, the jeb bushes and scott walker who do not want to have immigration. scott walker has made a political calculation to move to the right. he's pulling the mid romney and saying this is the path to the republican nomination, you can't do this, what it does, it puts then the republican party has this intense debate about immigration over here, maybe some loud voices end up being the face of some of the rhetoric that the eventual nominee is going to wish wasn't there, like, you know -- or the eventual nominee slips, and says self-deportation becomes this rally cry, no one thought mitt romney was this anti-immigrant guy eight years ago. >> that was not his identity. >> primary created that. >> right now what's interesting
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is, people like rubio and jeb bush have the story, hillary has the policy, i mean, hillary can get up and talk about her support for immigration reform. i don't know what jeb bush plans on saying now, or rubio. >> he am come out in favor of cir. >>. >> this is an interesting question, do they roll it back? if this policy the president is trying to do after it gets lit gated on the merits. >> yeah. and let's say it gets implemented, would they roll it back? >> marco rubio and jeb bush would roll it back, i don't think they would, i don't think rick perry would. anyone who has governed or represented a large hispanic population isn't going to do it, it's tough politics. >> that litigation on the merits, they start the process when it's legally unclear whether they'll actually be able to do it, that's all going to happen in 2016. >> the supreme court ruling and decision about the executive
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power of the president to do this, happens in the middle of the presidential campaign. >> chuck todd and christina beltran, thank you both. that's "all in" for this evening, "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. thank you for joining us this hour, huge show tonight. it's been an amazing news day today. we have dramatic news coming from a deep red state, a deep red state doing something that nobody expected from a conservative place. we have exactly the person you want to hear from live on the biggest news story in the world today. we've got a lot coming up this hour, i'm very excited about tonight's show, we start tonight with this. because we started this as basically kind of a joke. the republican field of candidates and likely candidates for 2016. we started this as a graphic, this thing you see on your screen. basically as a joke to show how many people were running or were likely to ru

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