tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC July 29, 2015 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT
and they are hanging there. they say they have enough supplies to last a few days. they say they are not going anywhere. the ship is essential to shell being able to drill the arctic and right now, in order to do the ship is essential to shell being able to drill the arctic and right now, in order to do that the ship will have to face a human gauntlet in order to get out of portland. the story was fascinating from the beginning. it gets better every day. watch this space. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow. now it is time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." >> everything i know about that ice breaker, i have learned in the last minute of your show, the last couple of nights an thank you for keeping us up to date. >> number one for very obscure news right here. >> thanks, rachel. a cincinnati police officer is indicted for murder after stopping a driver for having no front license plate on that car. but first, we have breaking news from an island in the indian ocean where plane debris found today could be from the missing malaysian airlines flight 370.
>> a huge break. >> wreckage may have been found. >> washed up on a french island. >> the french island in the india ocean is consistent with the same as the missing malaysia jet. >> the question is how long has that part been sitting on the island. >> now we know that 370 went down in the indian ocean. >> breaking news on a fatal police shooting in ohio. >> the most asinine act i have ever seen a police officer make. >> a university police officer indicted in the killing of a driver has just turned himself in. >> for the first time we have seeing the tape of the encounter. >> the officer stopped him for not having a front license plate. >> pretty chicken crap stop. >> he felt his life was in danger. >> the video appears to contradict his story. >> he knew the video was going to vindicate our brother.
>> i thank god that everything is being rebuilt. we have the first major clue in the disappearance of flight 370. investigators for boeing have looked at this aircraft debris found on a remote island in the indian ocean and believe it is from a boeing 777. they also believe it's very likely from malaysia airlines flight 370 because that's the only missing 777 in the world. the debris, the part there is covered in seashells and police say it appears to have been in the water for at least a year. the six foot long piece of debris is in the hands of local authorities. they will try to match it to
flight 370 using a serial number which may or may not still be on that part. highlighted here on a boeing 777 the part is believed, by many experts, to be this moving piece from the back of the wing. flight 370 took off after midnight on march 8th, 2014 and last seen on radar at 2:14 a.m. local time. this wreckage was found on reunion island 600 miles off of madagascar's eastern coast, but that's over 4,000 miles from the jet's last-known low call south of vietnam. it's also thousands of miles from where investigators have been searching for the boeing jet off of australia's western coast. oceanographers speculate that these circular currents of the indian ocean could have pushed possible debris from flight 370 to this island.
joining us now is john ransom, former commercial pilot and anthony roman, former commercial pilot and avian expert. and also with us ian mcdonald president of oceanography at florida state university will be joining us by phone. anthony roman, what's your reading on the latest news? >> i think this is a remarkable development, lawrence and the first real break i think we have had in the investigation concerning this mysterious disappearance. the ocean currents and the wind drift are consistent with this kind of drift pattern. and if this aircraft broke apart during its descent and it could very well have broken apart during its descent, an uncontrolled descent, an excessive speed descent, the upper winds are up to 150 to 200 miles per hour and can carry aero dynamic debris a very long way. that and in addition to the wind
currents and the sea countries suggest that it could. if boeing does identify this as a 777 wing board, it is very likely it is mh 370. no other 777 has been lost in the indian ocean. >> john ransom, if the plane actually hit the ocean intact, would we have a more compressed debris field? >> well, without having seen any other debris, it would be very difficult to tell. one thing this piece of airplane will be able to tell us is whether or not the flaps were with extended when the airplane hit the water, in all likelihood the geometry of the brake will tell whether or not the unit itself was still deep many to the wing where it normally sits during cruise or whether it was extended for low-speed flight. that may be another indication
it could give the investigators. >> ian mcdonald, there are other islands in the indian ocean between possibly where this crash occurred and reunion island. what are the chances, do you think, of more debris showing up on some of these land masses in the indian ocean? >> well, there's a good chance. like most ocean bases it has a circulatory pattern, a gyre and it carries material off australia toward africa toward madagascar. so material that landed in that gyre could have been carried westward. >> given the speed of currents and the way the ocean moves there, do you have any estimate about how long it would take for something like this -- if it was traveling from, say, a couple thousand miles away -- how long it would take to get there? >> well, from the maps, of the
probable impact point, it is over 3,000 miles of sea drift it would have had to undergo. the pictures of the part look totally covered with barnacles and other organisms so it was in the water for a long time. it is the missing triple seven it is over a year it's been drifting most likely. >> anthony roman, the search now, how do you think they should concentrate their efforts with this information? >> i think the primary search area was approximately 46,000 square miles. in 20,000 feet of ocean with a mountainous bottom. i think that will remain the same. they have completed 21,000 miles of the search. they have completed a mapping of the ocean floor in the search area. monumental tasks, but the primary debris field that would sink is probably still in that area. so that won't change. however, the surface debris, if this is found to be the debris
from mh-370, the surface search could now shift along a linear course that would follow the currents. it would be a monumental task at this point. >> let's go back to this piece of debris. what are the -- what are most of the -- what's the most optimistic reading of what we could possibly determine about the crash just from this one piece? >> well, unfortunately, about all you can determine is the geometry of the impact or what happened to the airplane immediately before it had the impact. it's still moves us no closer to determining what caused the airplane to do what with it did in the first place. so my guess is that they will intensify a search, not only there at reunion but over in mauritius, madagascar or
rodriguez island to see if they can find more debris that could move them closer. my impression is all they will find is the nature of the impact and not much more. >> ian mcdonald, any suggestions you would make about the search, base ed on the discovery of this and where the location of where this was discovered? >> i think looking for more debris on the island is a good one. more parts of the plane could only help us. as noted, it's a huge area and many uncertainties but this is a really big break. >> anthony roman, give then discovery of this part, what does it suggest about the other possible parts? if this part survived and if this part was floating, what else does it mean that might be floating? >> there are a lot of pieces of the aircraft, the aerodynamic pieces that are lighter. the interior of the aircraft, the seat cushions, some of the
other debris that would be very light and have buoyancy to them. they will float and follow the sea and wind current patterns. again, depending on whether it broke up in the air or whether it broke up upon impact would scatter the debris field in a different way and expand the search or contract the search area. however, this particular part, depending on its physical condition and microscopic examination and spectrography examination can begin to offer hints as to what may have happened. we might see some evidence of an explosive decompression or a bomb. it's unlikely but it is possible. and it must be examined. >> anthony roman, thank you for joining us. john ransom and ian mcdonald, thank you for joining us tonight. appreciate it. coming up, a cincinnati police officer is indicted today for murder of a man he pulled
over for having a missing front license plate. we will show you the video of the shooting. later, it's the koch brothers versus donald trump. which billionaire are you going to bet on? the koch brothers are 40 times richer than donald trump, at least 40 times richer. that's coming up. o smooth... ...it's fast. tums smoothies starts dissolving the instant it touches your tongue ...and neutralizes stomach acid at the source. ♪ tum, tum tum tum... smoothies! only from tums.
this is the most asinine act i have ever seen a police officer make. totally unwarranted. it was it's an absolute tragedy. in the year 2015 that anyone would behave in this manner. >> that is the prosecutor who got an indictment against the police officer for murder in cincinnati today. that's next.
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can a business have a soul? can a business be...alive? >> the hamilton county grand jury has returned a criminal indictment against raymond tensing who was a university of cincinnati police officer for the murder of samuel dubose. this office has probably reviewed upwards of 100 police shootings and this is the first time that we thought this is without question a murder. >> that was the hamilton county prosecutor today announcing the indictment of a 25-year-old university of cincinnati police officer, raymond tensing.
there's video from the body camera that raymond tensing wore on july 19th, the day he shot and killed samuel dubose after he pulled him over for having a missing front license plate on the car. a warning about this video, it seems very uneventful right up until the moment where the shooting occurs and it's easy to miss the shooting occurring. i have had to watch it more than once to get a grasp of what happens in this video. you might want to record it and rewind it if you want to see it. we are only going to show it once. it is really disturbing when you see what is really going on in this video. so here's that video.
>> to review what you saw there, the shot occurred when the car was still stopped with the officer still standing at the window of the car and then the driver apparently dead at the wheel slumped over the wheel, foot on the gas. the car then progressed, not so fast, down the road. hit a pole and the police
officer was then chasing that car as it was going down the road. that's what you were seeing from that body cam. we are joined now by byron mccauley, an opinion writer for "the cincinnati enquirer," sherrilyn ifill professor at the university of maryland school of law, eugene o'donnell, police studies at john jay college and former police officer with the new york city police department. sherrilyn ifill, your reaction to what we saw on video and the indictment today. >> you can imagine my reaction to what we saw on video. this is becoming all too familiar as we watch these encounters between police officers and members of the public. you described it in the opening that that split-second where things turn. i think actually the prosecutor described it quite well. it is almost impossible to imagine why this officer would imagine he had to draw his weapon. everything about the interaction that officer tensing has with samuel dubose makes clear that mr. dubose is not a threat, not
armed or dangerous. this is a calm conversation. there's nothing escalated. it is simply a series of questions. and yet at this moment when he doesn't comply or want to get out of the car the officer pulls his weapon and shoots him in the head and the car speeds off. the prosecutor in this case, of course, impanelled the grand jury and was able to come forward with an indictment very quickly which i think is critically important. he had obviously seen the video. we had been hearing from others including the police chief of cincinnati who had seen the video that this was going to be problematic and i think the prosecutor standing there today and talking about what kind of stop this was. talking about his revulsion was important. i think the issue that i find really disturbing is the fact this officer is wearing a camera. he knows he's wearing a camera.
the police report says he believes it has been captured on the camera and tells the story of being dragged by this car and there are 0 two other officers, officer kidd and schmitt that corroborate. they said he saw the officer dragged by the car which clearly did not happen. three officers are willing to tell a story that appears in an official document in a police report, despite the fact they know there's a camera that will show what accurately happened. we need to ask why would they do that? why do they believe their word, what they say, even if it is untrue will somehow trump what is on a video cam? very disturbing. the second issue is about who are these university police? they are patrolling outside of the campus in this instance. i know the college president declared they will only be able to patrol within the campus but they are outside of the campus. what's their relationship with the cincinnati police department. what training have they received and what kind of training will they receive going forward?
>> how much attention was the case getting in cincinnati before today? >> well, larry -- excuse me, lawrence, it has been getting a ton of attention in all media here because, when we first heard about this case, we first heard about the shooting it was immediately turned over. the investigation was immediately turned over to the cincinnati police department. and then in the coming days, in the days following, we were alerted by various leaders in town who have seen the video and said, well, this is bad. the police chief, the city manager. this is bad. we have seen it. we were expecting to see something remarkable but what we have all seen now in the united states, having seen this videotape, i think we can truly say that a horrible, horrible tragedy occurred. a lot of the points that have been made are on point. we have various questions about
how policing is done at university of cincinnati. what can be done to improve policing? in fact, we have -- the fact is we have another african-american man in this country who's been cut down and thank god we had the video. because if we had not had that video who knows what the outcome would have been. we would have been having a different conversation tonight. it could have been a simple situation of a police officer doing a great job. so, you know, those are a lot of questions we will have to face in the community. and we're facing them. we are a much better community than we were when we had our unrest in a similar situation in 2001. we learned a lot from that. we have grown. it shows tonight. there's been -- there have been no reported incidents of unrest, of law breaking, et cetera. we are doing well with. but this is truly been a very emotional day in this town and deters did a good job.
>> i want to listen what officer tensing said on the scene immediately after the shooting. let's listen to this. listen to how it lines up with what we just saw on video. let's listen to this. >> i think i'm okay. >> what was he reaching for? >> he kept reaching around. i told him to step out of the car and give me proof of license and that's when he started to take off and i reached in -- i shot one round at him. i got my hand caught in the car. i almost got ran over by him. >> eugene, last thing we hear is
a police officer telling him don't say anything. >> it's a very bad -- it is worth saying and not about this case in particular, but as we get used to these videos there will be a good faith mistake. somebody can misstate something they are involved in that is traumatic and police shooting research shows for a lot of cops it's a blur. could be a difference between what they are saying i'm not suggesting that's the case here but this whole issue, plus the sandra bland case, you just wonder, where's the oversight, the rhyme and reason? campus police are special purpose police . they are there to do the job on the campus. city policing is completely different than campus policing. and when you have special purpose police it is incumbent on the leadership to tell them we don't want you to get involved short of this kind of ending. just civil liability issues, just the university being on the hook if something wrong happens.
you look at the sandra bland thing, this trivial car stop. where's the police leader ship on this stuff proactively and you wonder whether the camera should be on the decision makers when they are making or failing to make these important decisions and you see things like the cop reaching in to the vehicle to get the keys. this is a text book thing you shouldn't be doing. on the other hand, he's a campus police officer, street police people in big cities would know that. i don't know that a campus police person, who probably has very rudimentary training would know that at all. that is a very bad, very bad and dangerous thing. by the way, cincinnati had a cop killed in 2000 in a remarkably similar situation where he reached in and was dragged 800 feet and killed. so it is a dangerous text book thing not to do. >> we will take a break and back with more. ryan mccauley and eugene o'donnell thank you for joining us. up next the community in cincinnati and the black lives matter movement.
how that has affected the situation there. cincinnati city manager harry black will join us to react to the indictment. but to get from the old way to the new, you'll need the right it infrastructure. from a partner who knows how to make your enterprise more agile, borderless and secure. hp helps business move on all the possibilities of today. and stay ready for everything that is still to come. gives you nexium level protection for frequent heartburn all day and all night. try nexium 24hr, the #1 prescribed acid-blocking brand, and get all day, all night protection. nexium level protection.
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peacefully for a black lives matter protest in memory of sam dubose. here's sam dubose mother and sister at a press conference this afternoon. >> seeing that video let me know that my son did absolutely nothing. not nothing. nothing to even provoke this man. >> i wasn't even big on video cams but every now i will be marching for video cams because my brother was being prosecuted for trying to kill a police officer. he dragged him. he assaulted him. he gave him alcohol when there was never an open container of alcohol. he was everything violent because he had children and charges. that man shot my brother dead. people don't listen. they just look at stereotypes. my brother was about to be one other stereotype and that's not going to happen. >> during discussion now harry
black, the city manager of cincinnati and back with us, sherrilyn ifill. what's the difference in training for the university and city police and what's the overlap in their jurisdictions and their duties? >> okay. there's a difference between the two from a training standpoint. clearly city of cincinnati police officers go through a rigorous initial training in terms of psychological, physical, situational and in terms of the senate -- university of cincinnati police, i'm not totally clear of the specifics of how they are trained but clearly nothing near what our police officers go through and our police officers undergo ongoing training from an in-service training perspective throughout the entire year. clearly, we have offered technical and advisory support and assistance and an invitation to the university of cincinnati
to take advantage of our training resources. retrospectively and perspectively speaking. >> the university has announced they are no longer going to have their officers doing any kind of patrol work outside of the campus. is that something that you and city government recommended to them as a result of this situation? >> yes. that was our recommendation to the president and his leadership team at the university is that they step back. they are undergoing a self examination, self reflection period. this gives us an opportunity to do a reset of the operating relationship between the university and the city police departments in terms of giving the university an opportunity to do an assessment of the policies and procedures, its training policies and procedures, as well as the relationship in general from a day-to-day operational
standpoint with an eye towards learning from this tragic incident in terms of what can we do differently? how can we get better? terms of jointly policing this perimeter of the university? >> sherrilyn ifill, i can't help but wonder are we looking at a procedural win for black lives matter? meaning the aftermath of the shooting has been handled in a virtually ideal way with, given it is a bad shooting, judged to be a bad shooting. we have this being disclosed with speed, efficiency, with very clear language on the part of the prosecutor, no question from the prosecutors and the investigators about what they believe they have found. i've never seen this kind of high-speed clarity from an investigation of this kind before. >> i think you first saw it in the case of walter scott in
south carolina. i think there's no question the black lives that matter movement and all of the grassroots activism, whether associated with the black lives matter group or not, has really raised the consciousness of this country and made people stop and think. it's making prosecutors stop and think. hopefully it will make police officers stop and think. that being said, i think we want to be careful about how we look at this case and whether it is ideal. as i suggested earlier, i think this question about these other officers, who surrounded officer tensing is a critically important one. because in order to send the proper message. in order to get at the culture of policing, which is what we have been talking about the last year, it's not just getting the individual officer but the culture that allows others officers around him -- we have heard about a bad apples. it is bad apples who don't tell the truth about the bad apples. i am hopeful that the prosecutor in this case will be looking at
the false statements issued by those two officers will be looking at obstruction of justice, holistically at how we get at what was advanced, the story advanced about samuel dubose. the other thing that is important is to remember the city of cincinnati was subject to a pattern and practice investigation by the department of justice in 2001. they ended that in 2007. they had very specific practices about how you deal with traffic stops. one of the specific things they said is allowing a suspect to temporarily evade arrest is sometimes appropriate. except the cincinnati police at the university were not included in this whole process. so we see there can be gaps. going forward, as we look at places like baltimore and others engaged in process we want to look at school and university police and other smaller police jurisdictions that now we realize have to be part if we
are going to seal this, have to be part of the effort to transform policing. here something happened. a group of police were left out and we saw this group of police perform in the way they did that resulted in the death of samuel dubose. >> harry black, your reaction? >> if i may respond to that, i want to go back to the fact that in 2001 the city of cincinnati had a very challenging situation on its hand, very similar to this situation. the city elected -- it was at an inflection point. it decided to go in a positive direction. obviously there was a consent decree. the department of justice was involved. there was a collaborative agreement that emanated from this tragic situation in 2001. what happened today and during the course of the investigation involving the university of cincinnati, the city of cincinnati police department and the county prosecutor validates that all of the good work that's been done with all of the stakeholders in cincinnati since
2001 has paid off, just based on the expediency in which this matter has been handled. again, the university of cincinnati is a state entity. okay? the collaborative is working as the city of cincinnati. the president of the university of cincinnati has agreed to bring in an outside third party assessor to assess the department, its practices and policies, its training, and we are going to be supportive of that as a city. they have also agreed to look at our collaborative agreement and to look at ways to document elements and tenants of that agreement and we will work with them closely to be supportive and helpful to them in that regard. but again, this is a university of cincinnati incident within the city of cincinnati tragic but justice has been served today. >> harry black, thank you very
much for joining us and sherrilyn ifill, thank you for joining us again. coming up the kobe brothers versus donald trump and the kobe brothers are at least, get, this 40 times richer than donald trump. who are you going to bet on in this fight? you exercise. you choose the salad. occasionally. but staying well - physically, financially, emotionally - its hard on your own. so cigna's got your back, and your knees, 24/7. cigna's there to answer your questions. or when you need some coaching. in sickness and in health, cigna's there, helping you to get well and stay well. that's having a partner, who's with you all the way.
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the koch brothers really don't want donald trump to be president. and the problem for donald is they are at least 40 times richer than donald trump. donald trump believes that human value is measured by wealth and you can tell how smart a guy is by how much money he has. so by donald's own formula, the koch brothers are like way, way smarter than donald trump, and they are determined to stop donald trump. koch brothers versus donald trump. that's our next discussion. we cn personal income taxes. we enacted the lowest corporate tax rate since 1968. we eliminated the income tax on manufacturers altogether. with startup-ny, qualified businesses that start, expand or relocate to new york state pay no taxes for 10 years.
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>> donald trump is here. still. any way -- it's amazing how time flies. soon the first presidential contest will take place, and i, for one, cannot wait to see who with the koch brothers pick. it's exciting. marco rubio, rand paul, ted cruz, jeb bush, scott walker. who will finally get that red rose? [ laughter ] >> and now it is the koch brothers versus donald trump. the fight everyone has been waiting for. the koch brothers who are at least 40 times richer than donald trump have no use for him as a presidential candidate. the koch brothers have in effect declared him one of the obvious losers in the presidential
primary by not inviting him to their republican candidate roundup this weekend. they will be in effect auditioning for the massive campaigns that the koch brothers and their other rich invited guests can provide to the campaigns. joining me jeremy peters political reporter for the "new york times," msnbc analyst and ken vogel chief investigator reporter for "politico." ken, it's an interesting list of who's this an out at the koch brother's big show. donald trump is definitely out. it seems like the koch brothers would like to get past the trump phase of this campaign as fast as possible. >> that's right. what is interesting here, lawrence, is that in some ways being snubbed by the koch brothers plays in to donald trump's messaging that he is not beholden to big donors unlike his rivals and particularly jeb bush, who he hit over and over again for his fund-raising ability and raising 100 million dollars in super pacs from
wealthy donors. this is more than money. the koch brothers control one of the most political apparatuses on the right. what they are debriefing donald trump is not just potential to raise super pac contributions from wealthy donors but the data they have assembled and the analytics through this private company i360, that's controlled by the koch brothers donald trump and his campaign have asked to be included in the i360 data and grassroots gatherings and been told no. that is something more valuable in some ways than money. >> donald responded to the snub by the kochs in a tweet. he said, i really like the koch brothers but i don't want their money or anything else from them. cannot influence trump. turns out we just heard he does
want something else from him whether they have told donald or not but the koch brothers can bury donald trump in negative advertising if it comes to that if he has to be taken out with negative advertising. they can outspend him like he's never seen. >> i don't think the koch brothers are the only ones capable, willing or eager to do that. it certainly -- you don't need the koch brothers to do that. i think donald trump does that himself with his own words. i do think that as we look at the impact that the koch brothers are going to have on this election, one of their lasting legacies is going to be this shadow party they have assembled. as ken was talking about, they have a very extensive network of not just volunteers but paid staffers and a lot of these early primary states, a lot of swing states like florida, and that's something that i think we are going to be talking about
long after we finish talking about donald trump. >> ken, it looks like the koch brothers favorite is scott walk wither. how does that affect the others when they go out there knowing the koch brothers already have a favorite? >> it certainly does seem that way. i think marco rubio in particular has found himself gaining some traction in that network. frankly, among large donors across the conservative political landscape. he's been so acidous in his courtship of big donors. he went to the koch brothers last seminar in january and really put on a show, impressed a lot of donors there. incidentally impressed them in a way that rand paul, who in some ways would seem to be very well suited to gaining support from that network, the libertarian, sort of philosophy undergirding his brand of republicanism seems to be one that dove tails nicely with the koch brothers. he was rather unimpressive out
there and a lot of donors felt he was not only unprepared but additionally gave answers that suggested he wasn't as closely aligned with them. marco rubio, i think surprised a lot of people and has potential to gain traction this weekend out there in southern california. >> after a pause, we will come back and consider someone else who's banned from the koch brothers big event. but that one, that candidate might not be the loser the rest of the people on the list turn out to be. that candidate who is banned from the koch event could possibly be the republican presidential nominee. that's next. three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do, drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement, you'd get your whole car back. i guess they don't want you driving around on three wheels. smart. with liberty mutual new car replacement, we'll replace the full value of your car. see car insurance in a whole new light.
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try nexium® 24hr. the latest choice for frequent heartburn. get complete protection. nexium level protection. it is entirely possible that the winner of the republican presidential nomination will not be on the big debate stage next week in ohio. ohio's governor, john kasich, is moving up in the polls but possibly not fast enough to make it in to the top ten for next week's debate. john kasich has the most impressive governing resume of any republican candidate by far, and may be the one to watch. he just might be the one to watch when the trump dust clears. back with us, jeremy peter and ken vogel. ken vogel, interesting that john
kasich is also banned from the koch brothers candidate show. what did he do to the koch brothers? >> well, his great problem from their perspective is his support for the expansion of medicaid under obamacare in his state. he stood firm and said this was a decision he made in good faith. he invoked his faith in explaining why he did it. expanded health care access for thousands and thousands of low-income ohioans and that, nonetheless, was a problem for the koch brothers and the koch brothers groups active in ohio. they vigorously opposed that. john kasich stood by his guns. that's a challenge for him with republican base medicaid expansion but probably plays a little better with independent voters who would be key in a general election. >> jeremy peters, john kasich, according to some democrats is the one they should be most afraid of, the one they most don't want to see with that
nomination because of what ken just said, there's a possible appeal to independents. not one of these hard-core guys on the obamacare. so he would have an appeal that democrats worry about. and he is polling ahead of hillary clinton in his home state of ohio. >> he is. i think there are a lot of republicans -- there are republicans appealing to independent swing voters, too. jeb bush will have an appeal to hispanics and marco rubio same thing. i don't think that he has a lock on what hillary clinton should fear most. it will be interesting to see how much more his popularity grows. he's been steadily gaining. he waited a long time to get in to the race. everyone said that would hurt him and it has. i was in new hampshire on a reporting trip last week. i started to see the fruits of his, almost $3 million ad buy in
that state. he's playing a campaign for new hampshire. he's not running a national campaign. that's why you are not really seeing his popularity reflected in national polls, but you are seeing it in new hampshire poll he's polling up there, whether that's lasting i don't know. he's definitely one to keep your eye on. >> ken, in the latest poll in new hampshire, kasich is now running third. he's gotten up to 7%, behind jeb bush at 12. in the latest poll there. he is doing a pretty heavy tv campaign advertising effort up there. i see it on boston television, since unfortunately when you are campaigning in new hampshire you have to buy expensive boston tv also for the ads. he's making his bet on new hampshire. >> yeah, it's a risky strategy. you don't have to look too far back to see a number of other candidates who did similar things. jon huntsman comes to mind in 2012.
obviously not successful there. this time you have chris christie, carly fiorina, rand paul also betting it. so john kasich has to breakthrough in a big way for the strategy to be successful. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. "hardball" starts right now. it's a bird, it's a plane, will nothing bring down the man from metropolis? let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ good evening, i'm chris matthews up in new york. you're hearing it in the press rooms right now, people who don't even watch the news are asking what's with this guy trump who is zooming to new attitudes? is he the teflon don, impregnable to attacks that would leave anyone else crashed and burning. what has he got that they don't? dare we say he's got what the republican voter wants to hear and his rivals don't have a clue.