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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  July 31, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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that's it for "hardball." "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> i'm not a debater, i get things done. with trump set to -- new details on the desperate behind the scenes scramble by the other contenders. >> i have no idea how i'll do. maybe i'll do terribly, maybe great. then the officer who shot and killed samuel dubose, makes his first court appearance. >> ladies and gentlemen, you will conduct yourselves proposally tails. if you don't stop cops who are willing to cover up, you will not address the problem, ever. plus confed rag flags at dr. king's church. federal officials hunting
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for the dentist who killed cecil the lion. and a former who was targeted for being gay. >> i'm the only one who is here that is gay, and everything knows i'm gay. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, with just one week before the first republican debate, the current front-runner donald trump seemed pretty darned relaxed today as he piloted a golf cart around a luxury course he owns in scotland. the donald emerged from a helicopter to attend the women's british open, and just as star golfer michelle wie predicted, his presence turned the tournament into something of a sideshow. he was trailedly by a scrum of reporters, many he seemed to have little patience for, even as he vowed to be patience as a president.
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>> what do you mean it was up there? you know what the number is. ay. if it were bad numbers, she would have known. you don't know the major polls, katie, so obviously you don't want to be an inaccurate reporters like many others. maybe one day you'll apologize, too. you can't even ask a question. i think why get along -- wait. i think i would get along very well with a lot of people. meanwhile, back at home, there is rising panic within the gop about just what might go down in next week's debate. the field now includes 17 major candidates, but under the rules set out by fox news, only the candidates polling in the top ten will be able to participate, though there will be a separate debate earl why the in the day for the also-rans. fox says they'll use an average of five national polls and whoever has the highest will be center change. right now, according to msnbc's calculations s. trump is leading is the pack. but there's a big wrinkle in all
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of this. nobody knows exactly which polls fox plans to use, and fox isn't telling. according to some excellent reporting by gabe sherman in "new york" magazine, advisers for john casic and rick perry will be lobbying roger ailes at fox to, since ailes has ultimate power over the debate. there is also a reportedly unease among the candidates themselves about the pitfalls of having to stand near the unpredictable trump on the debate stage, not to mention how they'll navigate questions now that trump has staked out a position of deporting all 11 million of the current undocumented immigrants living in the u.s. the only person in all of this who doesn't seem to be sweating what's going to go down is trump himself.
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>> as far as preparing for the debates, i am who i am. i don't know. i've never debated before. i'm not a debater. i get things done. they debate every night in their life. that's all they do. they debate all over the place and nothing happens. i'm sort of the opposite. i have no idea. i am who i am. i'll show up, i look forward to it, and that's all i can do. i have no idea how i'll do. maybe i'll do terribly, maybe great. liz mair has worked with both rick perry and carly fiorina, and bob costa with "washington post." i'm fascinated by the scuttlebutt of the strategic class about this phenomenon and the debate. i think at first people thought, well, we'll wait this out, this is a summer squall that will, you know, drop a lot of rain and then move on. there is got to be some starting to think this is going to stick around a while. >> i think people do anticipate
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that probably the trump phenomenon will continue at least for a few more weeks, though there are some problems you see with some of his numbers, if you dig into certain polls. i certainly thing s. there's been a great deal of angst about the debates, setting aside what we have seen with trump for quite some time. we do have a very wide field. we have a debate structure that was set up to address problem in the 2012 cycles. it does not address the problem we are dealing with in this juncture, and there are a lot of qualified candidates who are not polling where they will make it into the debate. that's problems for the campaigns, but frankly it's of concern to a lot of people in the water at large and the rnc itself, because if these people don't make it in, we're actually failing to give an accurate presentation of what the republican party is today, in terms of its experiential, philosophical and demographic diversity. a lot of people are agrieved at that.
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>> let me say this segues into the conceptual heart. the republican party, for all intents and purposes, has ceased to exist as an institution with any power over this process. the power right now lies in roger ailes. they're not lobbying reince priebus. they don't care what polls reince priebus calculates. they care what roger ailes has. he's supplanted the republican party, and we're seeing it happen. do you agree, robert? >> for at least this debate. the next network that has it will have the same power over the criteria of who gets on the stage or not. i think your point about an a weak party is powerful. it's reflected by the summer of discontent. you have a coup attempt in the house, a senator calling the majority leader in the senate a liar, trump lating is the polls, this is a --
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>> i would also just jump in for a sect and say one of the is other things, if you look at the communications director of the own op-ed in "wall street journal" about the debates, and he is expressly saying there's nothing the rnc can do, which i don't totally agree with. i think the rnc has some capacity, but basically he's saying that fox is setting all of the rules and calling all of the shots, which is a tricky situation, definitely for candidates to navigate, because they do have to lobby ailes directly. >> the rnc has a role to play in organizing the debates and has tried to limit -- they had 20 in 2012, now nine this time around. it's not the most powerful force in the party. you think of the gop as an idea, this sprawling base versus the establishment, all these different factions, 17 candidates. it's not about the rnc, but a
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party that's broader than that organization having problems right now. >> this raises the crux of the issue, right? which is two forces have now converged as we stand here looking at this this debate a week from now, which is 9 campaign finance regulation that was passed from the cain/feingold, with the rise of the conservative media, all of those things have combined, meaning the republican party as an institution, an idea, a vehicle, is essentially beside the point. it is increasingly irrelevant from the lived experience of the actual way this campaign is being conducted, or am i wrong, liz? >> i think there are some other components. when you look at the philosophical diversity you're not necessarily seeing when you talk about conservative media, for example, this brand of conservatism that you see out there in conservative media is not reflective of the brand of conservatism you see with a rand
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paul or mike huckabee. there's a lot of spread, or certainly with a jeb bush or john kasich. s there's a lot of spread going on, and i think a lot of this is diverse responses to a lot of ehaven't that have occurred in politics and policy over the last 8 to 15 years, and so that fracturing is something that the party is having to contend with. you know, i agree with bob that really you should necessarily have the rnc being the one calling all of these shots and that's probably not the appropriate way to look at it. when you are looking at that kind of fragmentation there are a lot of people that want the rnc to step up, to maybe provide some sort of predictability. at the moment that's a real challenge for a lot of the campaigns, because there's no predictability, and they are all having to work on the presumption they will find out next week and they may have, i don't know, what 24, 48 hours' notice whether they're in or not. that's a tricky situation to be in operationally.
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>> there's going to be a moment, like the dream act moment back in to 12 when rick perry defended himself on allowing undocumented students to attend universities, and mitt romney pounced on him. there's going to be a guy saying deport all 11 million that will be a huge political an substantive test for everyone. >> and i think you're right, this is about immigration, perhaps more about jeb bush and some of the other top fehr contenders like scott walker. the trump sideshow is part of it, but how do they handle immigration? does bush articulate a path, in front of the millions of conservatives and really make a case? >> liz mair and bob kosta, thank you --
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you've been accused of bullying the local people of the many estate, the local residents. >> yeah. >> like a trump people -- >> well, this is a bit like your documentary, anthony. you show scenes like that, and it's very hard to counteract a statement from such a woman. she actually reminds me a bit of my mother, if you want to know the truth. she looks like a lovely woman. >> you pursued her for legal costs when she took out court action against her. for legal costs, how do you think that comes across, mr. trump, to people in scotland? >> let's put it differently. we pursued michael forbes. michael forbes was not fair to us, was not nice to us. >> joining mess now investigative journalist anthony
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baxter, director of "a dangerous game" and "you've been trumped" how duty end up with a film that centering around trump? >> well, i live in a small town on the east coast of scotland. when donald trump first came to scotland in 2005, just up the road from where i live. he came in saying i'm going to create jobs, 6,000 jobs was the promise. he was going to bring economic prosperity to the area was the claim. the local media seemed to eat that up and were obsessed with trump's celebrity when he came into scotland. i knew what he was going to do is build a golf course on one of our last remaining wilderness area, an incredibly beautiful stretch, which was supposed to be protected by the scottish government, so i picked up the camera, remortgaged the house and started to document what i was going on. what i saw was very troubling indeed. >> what did you find out about the way that trump does business, during your investigation?
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>> well, i think what we've been seeing recently is his sin flap torrie and dangerous things he's been saying, but what i found is the dangerous things that he actually does. i found how he had cut off the water supply to a local farmer, michael forbes, and this 86-year-old woman. that was done accidentally by his work force as they were building a road leading to the golf course. but in the new film "a dangerous game" which is released now on itunes, we found how five years on that's still the indicate. a 91-year-old worm is still without a proper working water supply. mounds of earth were built next to residents' homes and they were bullied and harassed. we found out how the environmental impact of hiv golf course was even greater than we even imagined. so it's a documenting of what really happens, and what he does as being so dangerous. >> if you go around to that area
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where you're from where that golf course is built and you say the name "trump," what kind of reaction do you get? >> i think from the first film people saw the reality. the public perception turned against mr. trump after the documentary was aired by the bbc. he threatened to sue the bbc for showing the film. i was arrested and thrown in jail when i questioned how michael forbes and his mother have been treated and how their water supply had been cut off, because it seemed to ask the local police were acting as a private security force for donald trump. when people saw that on their screens, they were utterly appalled. so i think it was a turning point in terms of public perception. up until that point, mr. trump kept claiming he had 93% support in the polls. well, that poll he referred to was never done. it was never 93% support. the reality is that after all these years, the 6,000 jobs that he promised recently he's been
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talking about being the jobs president, while the reality in scotland is out of the 6,000 jobs promised, 200 have been created. out of $1.5 billion pledged, a fraction of that has been invested. what we have is one golf course and none of the economic prosperity that was supposed to happen. >> that sounds like an interesting warning for potential american voters, from anthony baxter, thanks very much. still to come. newly released body camera races even more questions, plus a former senator claims a ceo with a $75 million retirement package was exploited. i don't think that word means what he think it is means. plus the first openly gay navy s.e.a.l. files a complaint with the cia s. alleges he was the target of homophobic bullies. >> pretty derogatory stuff directed at me. i'm the only one here who's gay.
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at 6:00 a.m. today, a main najs worker at ebenezer baptist church where martin luther king was bam advertised, was confronted with this -- confederate flags, four of them, on the grounds of the church. the maintenance worker notified the national parks service, and sign local law enforcement was involved. one of the flags was reportedly placed below a poster near a garbage can. authorities say there's video surveillance which may show two white men responsible for the act. the senior pastor called it a cowardly act and placed it in context. >> in the wake of all that's happening, what the message was, it was clearly not about heritage. it's about hate. it's the kind of statement we would characterize as a terroristic threat.
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some have been afraid to attach that term for some reasons when it comes to black churches, but the idea of terrorism cannot be a racialized idea if we were serious about equal treatment under the law. >> the investigation is ongoing.
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a former university of cincinnati police officers indicted in the fatal shooting of samuel dubose made his first court appearance this morning where he pled not guilty to murder and manslaughter charges. as the judge set bond, some onlookers could not contain their reaction.
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>> the defendant is facing the possibility of life in prison. it's the court's duty to ensure his appearance. the bond will be $1 million any way. [ applause ] >> ladies and gentlemen, this is a courtroom. >> tensing has since posted bond, speaking to nbc news correspondent sarah daloff -- >> he had a legitimate fear he was going to be run over, and he was defending himself. >> reporter: you hear him saying i was being dragged. does he still maintain that happened? >> absolutely. >> reporter: it doesn't appear to show that on the video. in fact it doesn't appear hess's on the ground or the car moves until the first shot is fired? >> you know, it all happened so quickly, that i'm not sure -- i don't know what happened. tensing's report was being corroborated by another officer
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who responded to the scene. according to the incident report i. kidd said he witnessed the car drag the officer. another video was released today. tensing appears briefly on the left side of the frame and both he and officer kidd are already running toward dubose's car when the video starts. both the officers who respond to the scene, philip kidd and -- are both on leave. is the district attorney said other officers are being investigated, but they have not been identified. in an interview with nbc news, the lawyer for the dubose family, mark o'meara, questioned the culture of the university police department. >> one bad cop, you indict the cop. two bad cops, you may indict the department. even if you stop the murder, if
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you don't stop cops who are willing to cover up, you will not address the problem, ever. joining mess the cofounder and -- steve osborn author of "the job. trgs " let's start with the other officers. there's two incident reports. one of them appears to be the officer saying what tensing told him, which okay, fair enough. the other seems to be an officer either sdrasically misremembering or fabricating to cover for his colleague. your reaction, phil? >> i think it's very difficult to say, given that we don't have the body camera feed from before of runging incident happens. i think this is also part of the issue we've had when we've been talking about body cameras as if they were a panacea for everything. even the body camera becomes blurry at the moment when you think my goodness this is when the shooting happens. so it's not clear whether the shot is fired first or the car moves first.
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here i have concerns about jumping to conclusions. >> do cops cover for other cops? >> everybody likes to believe that, but i'm telling you, most cops i know, you know, nobody is going to jail to cover up for another guy who made a mistake or did something criminal. people like to believe that, but i don't know anybody who is willing to go to jail for somebody else over that. >> you say willing to go to jail, because the idea is how will they go to jail? because prosecutions in these cases happen so rarely, just as sort of a statistical matter. four prosecutions in 2015, that doesn't seem to me -- maybe you want to cover for somebody or don't for whatever reason, but the threat of jail, does that hang over a cop when you come out of this thing? >> absolutely. you know this will be investigated upsidedown by everybody. by your own department, by internal affairs, by the d.a.'s office. by the feds. everybody will investigate this.
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you know the truth will come out in the end, so why would you say something that's not true? >> right, but that applies -- a lot of people were saying this about tensing. here is a guy who has a body camera, dmoez he has a body camera, says that he was dragged by the car, right? body camera comes out and shows he wasn't dragged by the car, and people are thinking, why would he possibly fabricate something that is so obviously contradicted by the body camera? >> it's an argument for body cameras, but i guess i have to push back a bit. it doesn't look as if he's dragged. i want to see what's going on with the uniform. in one of the reports it says it was cut up as if he was dragged for quite a long time. if you have a hand in a car and it starts to move and you feel at if you're being dragged, the exaggerations that adrenaline brings to you, it feels like lying from the people looking outside, but it doesn't feel like that way from the inside.
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if your life -- >> wait a second. you think he's not lying. i didn't say that. what i'm saying is there's a world of possibility where this is more exaggeration than it is malicious. >> okay. but it gets to the heart of the matter here, which is that it seems that the fear of for one's life can always be possible, right? so we can look at that tape, and you can say i as some god-like figure come in and i open the head of tensing, and i see he was genuinely afraid for his life at that moment, and that then means it's fine? >> absolutely cat goishlly no, but that's what happens, and that's how juries think about it. look at what happens in courtrooms. >> i understand. i'm saying we should take several steps back. in the end you have someone who was pulled over, at least ostensibly for not having a front license plate and for driving erratically possibly,
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and is dead at the end of the incident. that should be unacceptable. it's not about well, his behavior should have been this, he should have been more responsive. it's the fact that in the end a minor offense ends up in death. that is the think we have to be focusing on. deters called it chicken crap stop. he's a prosecutor, real law-and-order reputation, not a reputation as any bleeding heart at all, and he said two things, a chicken crap spot, and he said if the guy is going to drive away, let him drive away. >> i don't agree with either one. i've done it. if there's no front plate, you think maybe the car is stolen, you're going to run it. several times i've pulled over somebody without a front plate. they didn't even know it was missing, something stole it off the car and you're telling them somebody is using it for something else. it's not a chicken whatever stop. >> what about letting him just drive away?
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>> at that point, if you let him drive away, i think he handed the cop a bottle of gin, hess's got no license, you have to make that choice. once he started that car and started to flee and the cop has to make a decision if it didn't go that way, if it didn't shoot, the cop has to make a decision, and then he runs someone over down the block. >> this is the same thing as walter scott. he ran away because he had a warrant on missed child support. he didn't want to go back to jail. the question is why do you -- >> you made a good point -- this is something that nobody is talking about. up to the point where the car stop, spun wildly out of control, the cop was as polite and professional as could be. he spoke to the driver, he asked him numerous times for his driver's license. if that individual would have
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just listened to that officer, if he would have complied, if he could have -- >> people hear that -- but people hear that, and that sounds like, i've got to -- cops tell me this all the time. they tell me this all the time. just listen to what a cop says. i say i'm an american and i have rights. i don't live in a state in which the authority of the law looms over me such that they can just tell me what to do no matter what. that is circumscribed by a document that literally our founders fought and died for that protects us and endows us with protections from arbitrary state power, to say jump, how high? >> the street is not the place to lit 2k3w5i9 these things. if you feel the officer is wrong, after you can make a civilian complaint, you can get a lawyer and sue the police decht. there's a million lawyers that will take your. the street is not the place to litigate this. >> that's what every officer says. >> and this is where you and i part company. regardless of what i want to
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teach my future children or i tell my friends to do during a stop, the consequences of not being an ideal citizen in relationship to an officer should not be death. that's the thing i find most objectionable. it can't just be about their behavior. if somebody is a bad mood, they shouldn't die for that. what we have in the worst-case scenario, the most ungenerous reading of sam dubose, he was possibly inautomobileriated, a front license plate off and didn't behave properly. for that, he is dead. that could be okay. >> that's correct. let me explain something to you me as a police officers, i pull you over, i understand this is a stressful 1i9 ways. no nobody likes getting pulled over. i do not moe who you are -- >> i know, every cop says that. >> you can't by lying in wait to light me up. >> but we have 560 dead 1i9 zen, some percentage of those armed and some percent possibly completely 1yu6d, but the way 9 balance of this hangs, the scales tip in one direction and
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that's a fact of the number at this point. phillip, steve, i would love to have you back to do this again. coming up the first openly gay navy s.e.a.l. files a complaint with the cia alleging he was targeted for sexuality. he'll join me ahead.
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if i were to ask you who the most persecuted people in america are, what bigotry is at the top of the list, would your
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answer be bigotry against the successful? that's what phil graham said this week at a house committee hearing when asked about the regulatory burden on private businesses, the retired senator pivoted, lamenting the plight of the successful. >> well, look, it goes way beyond paperwork. what all this is about is political demogogries. it's the one form of bigotry that's allowed, and that's bigotry against the successful. >> but graham whose name is on the financial deregulation bill largely viewed as one of the key contributors to one of the biggest financial crisis saved his most righteous indignation for the evidence of such bigotry, that people gave hi former ceo buddy and exploited worker gulf for his $75 million retirement package. my friend fret whitaker, even if there's ever been an exploited worker, even though they made a
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big deal about getting $75 million when he retired, the man added billions of value. he was exploited. it was an outrage. mitt kerr's retirement package was actually close are to $160 million. just terribly, terribly sad. turns romantic why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to find a bathroom? with cialis for daily use, you don't have to plan around either. it's the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away
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bret jones, the first openly gay member of that elite unit, has filed a complaint alleges he was a victim of homophobic bullies while deployed as a cia contractor last month in afghanistan. jones, whose family says convinced him to write a memoir, says he experienced such a disturbing pattern of harassment last month he concocted a fake story in order to get on a helicopters and leave. he i called my husband woke him up and filled him in on anything that happening. unsure of who i could trust, i contacted a deputy director and told him of a fake family emergency.
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around the same times jones recorded a rather chilling message. >> my name is bret jones. it is july 2nd, 2:45. the reason i'm making this is in the event that something happens to me, i guess there's evidence. >> this afternoon the cia sent a statement that it has no comments on specific allegations raised. we take seriously any allegations, we have a zero-tolerance policy, and cia leadership is committed to holding all the employees accountable for living and promoting this policy. joins me is bret jones. can you tell me what started to happen when you landed on assignment working for this contractor that was contracted with the cia in afghanistan? >> well, when i arrived, there were a series of things that were happening.
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when i got off the plane, there wasn't a vehicle to pick me up, which was unusual, but not the end of the world. when i got into our team room, i noticed as soon as i walked in that a bunch of guys sort of walked out. it was a lot of little things over the course of about two weeks that were happening, leading up to me overhearing a conversation where one of the guys used the word qush the f word describing gay people negatively, and i had to pull him off to the side and talk to him about it. and then it was just a series of things after that. lots of little things, but leading up to being left on a mountain as they drove off and left me, and they eventually did come back and pick me up, but it wasn't -- it wasn't in a joking manner. this wasn't a playful sort of thing.
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the whole trip i was there, the tension was just so thick, and it led up to a powerpoint presentation right before a fairly dangerous brief, and that powerpoint presentation had some of the most disgusting things i've seen on them. i knew that i needed to retrieve that powerpoint presentation for evidence, and so i woke up early the next morning to do just that, and discovered a bunch of racist pictures being used as a screen saver on one of the computers right as you come in and out of the team room. so i had no idea where this began or where it ended. >> you -- i want to go back to this incident where you were left on a manage, just to be clear. there was some sense in which i felt a genuine threat from the men you were working with. these were fellow contractors. is that right? >> it was both contractors and agency staff. >> and agency staff. you're saying they -- they out of essentially anti-gay animus
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from the beginning they knew you were openly gay, they treated you differently, and out of that animus, they left you on a mountain and drove off? >> it's -- yeah, in a nutshell, that's basically what happened. yeah. they did come back and pick me up. >> what were the circumstances? you were there essentially doing a security sweep, right? you got out of the vehicle and they just got in the vehicle and drove off? >> actually i had asked everyone to load up this vehicle, because i needed to test -- i was in charge of the fleet out there, so i needed to test this vehicle, because we were going to put some new equipment in it. it was rather heavy. i needed about eight guys, four in the cab and four guise in the back of the truck. it got to a particularly dangerous part of a mountain trail. i decided to get out of the back of the truck and advised the other guys to do the same. they got in, just in case the
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truck rolled. when i got out, they drove through that difficult portion of the trail as i walked behind, i started jogging to get back up in the vehicle and they drove off. >> i want to show some of the powerpoint presentation that earp able to get year hands on. can they show that in a second in describing you as call you gay-gay or frank & beans? this was part of a security briefing to the whole team in which they were essentially calling you out this way in an official document? >> yes. it was -- it was pretty disturbing at the time. right before -- this mission, this kind of people, teamwork is essentially to mission success. you have to go out of that wire
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confident that every one of those guys will have your back and you'll have theirs. you have to have that confidence to be successful in that line of work. bret jones, thank you for your time tonight. still ahead, the dentist accused of killing cecil the lion is facing threats and inquiry. stay with us.
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before it even opened on broadway "hamilton" sold over 200,000 advanced tickets. the hip-hop phenomenon starring a diverse cast and focusing on the life of alexander hamilton, it's so huge that even president obama went to new york to see it earlier this month with his daughters. it's all the brainchild of -- i got to interview the writer, in the latest cover story of billboard, along -- we talked about everything from president obama's visit to donald trump's
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influence on the debate to the genius of alexander hamilton himself, something lynn also touched on last time we spoke. >> he really wrote his way out of circumstances and sort of played catch-up. he was reading about monetary policy during the revolutionary war in the event he would be called -- he was like ten steps ahead. if that's the essence of genius, we have to win this war, but also figure out how to not be in perpetual revolution, which is what we saw all over the world today. >> the new cover story is already online. you can find a link to it on our facebook page.
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tonight u.s. authorities are on the hunt for william palmer, the man responsible for the
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death of cecil, the famed zimbabwe lion earlier this month, days after palmer said authorities have not contacted him, the u.s. fish & wild life service made clear they have made multiple efforts to reach the dentist, even resorted to tweeting. we'll go where facts lead, we ask dr. palmer or his rep to contact us immediately. yesterday protesters camped out at his office, with signs that said rot in hell and #justiceforcecil. meanwhile, over 100,000 people signed on a white house petition calling for his to be extradited. and today it made it into the white house press briefing room. >> the petition that is reached that threshold, so there would be a forth coming white house response. the think i will say, as a general matter, is that decisions about prosecution and extradition are made over at the department of justice.
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walter palmer now finds himself in the center of a engine wen social media phenomenon. thousands of people hurled insults at him. he yelp page has been flooded with comments. personal details including about his family rub public blishd by activists, according to "new york times," including by actress mia farrow, who parent tweeted the address, then removed it. in a statement this week, he said, quote, i had no idea the lion i took was a known local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt. his guide said -- we would never shoot a collared animal. i was devastated and so was the client. yet minute by minute, the calls for justice seem to come from all corners of the internet. have we replaced the stocks with
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vigilante digital justice? more on that, next.
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joining me now, my friend and colleague michelle goldberg of the nation on the topic of twitter shaming specifically. what is your reaction to the reaction to killing cecil the lion as it's playing out? >> i don't want anyone to think that i am kind of pro-lion killing, right? >> let's just stipulate -- let's start here. it appears what the guy did was
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both a crime and even if not a crime, is a pretty awful thing to do. yeah, big game hunting strikes me as despicable, though i understand there is some argument about corns investigationists. what i guess bothers me is he had -- i don't know that what he has done leaving morally disreputable than what every other game hunter and every other lion hunter. i don't know that it's that much more moral to kill a lion with a name than an anonymous lion, so in a way he's been picked out of the this anonymous herd of game hunters, subject to a level of kind of public shame and personal drugs, and right just kind of reputational annihilation. i don't think there's any real coming back from, for violating a rule he didn't necessarily have any way to know existed.
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i mean attached to killing a beloved lion. >> so here's the other side of that argument. first of all, maybe he did commit a crime, maybe he did know, and the think he did was a lot of people find disgusting and moshly reprehensible. if this brings changes to big game hunting, all for the best. and also, hey, so what? you have to live with reputational annihilation, you took this lion's life. i think that is always is the justification, right, for mob justice. the person did something, to that allows you to feel righteous. what's going on is less ben avenging my death, than it is about indulging in it ecstasy of outrage. it feels so good to be on the side of righteousness and punishments, especially when the person seems really, really deserving.
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i would say justice that's kind of random with no real connection to the severity of the crime, people always say, well, why this guy and not this guy, but i would say he's hardly the worst person in the world this week. so the idea to me that these public shamings -- >> john ross wrote a book about that. >> and john ronson's book, so what, you have some reputational annihilation. people's lives are shattered, you know, their relationshipses their careers. >> let me argue the other side. you've got this sigh, one who sent a dumb tweet, a stupid tweet about going to africa, and her life was, you know, she was blown up on twitter, fired, but then you also have bill cosby. this seems like on the same -- that he escaped liability for
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years, and when you talk to his alleged victims, they say it was social media, it was essentially this public shaming function that for the first time is brings accountability. it's like ferguson, right? so it's possible that the price we have to pay for the justice, the social media has brought to black lives matter, to sandra bland, all of these different cases that might have before gone under the radar. maybe the price is we're going to live in this crowdsource pen-opt i con, is sort of seeing this frosting vengeance is disturbing. >> there is something unnerving about it. thank for you being here. that's "all in." the rachel maddow show starts right now. we've been watching a developing situation in the last few hours, taking place in one of the america's biggest cities
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on the west coast. it's been honestly dramatic. i've been watching it in my office all day long. unpredictable, and it's gone into tonight. i think in the first time i've ever reported on something i could describe this way, this ongoing news event has been happening all day in midair over a very busy river. so we're keeping an eye on the live pictures, in order to fully appreciate what has been happening and what continues to happen tonight, i need to show you a map. this is portland, oregon, it sits look the willamette river, which you can see right there on the map. because it is relatively easy to use the willamette river and columbia river to get from portland, oregon out to the pacific ocean, or from the pacific oats into portland, portland has always been a pretty important hub for shipping. a lot of different oceangoing ships will travel this stretch of the willamette.

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