tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC September 16, 2015 9:00pm-10:01pm PDT
walking over to the set, you just spent ten minutes after the game. >> after the game. >> does trump think he won? >> he does. he thinks he won. he told me he came prepared on fiorina's business record. you compare his temperament. he believes he held back, was disciplined, acting like the front runner. wanted to show he could bring it and handle the heat. >> why did he take shots add people like the looks with rand paul? >> he enjoys purcnches down onc in a while. when it came to carly fiorina, he called her beautiful. >> he's still politically correct, because you're not supposed to make comments about someone's looks. >> there's consequences if he hits carly fiorina. she's going to go up in the polls. and you're seeing her to up in
this debate. by hitting her, he knows unlike the others, he will take a hit by fighting with her. she was in a strong position. i would say that she came out swinging, and then if we talk about to a lot of the gop insiders, they'll say she got a clean hit when she says people know what he meant. >> didn't you expect it was coming. i predicted this was going to be the big thing in the fight, and i predicted it was going to be carly fiorina the winner. these are not hard things to tout. you can see them coming. carly fiorina was guaranteed the spotlight tonight when he took the shot at her looks, any debate moderator, especially a showman as good as jake tapper, knew he had to put it up. they saved it, and they saved it to the end so they could go to break with that one. they knew this was the crowning moment tonight. >> trump tells me, we're over at his suv. >> he's your guy now. >> trump tells the post, he
says, i said you came ready, trying to get under her skin on her business record. bringing up her silicon valley record. he said, in so many words, i don't mess around. he said i was ready with fee re ree reena? >> he thinks if he goes at her business, that's the way to get at. >> what about her coming back and saying you have three or four bankruptcies in atlantic city? >> he thinks he's comfortable at the billionaire. we'll see. >> steve, what do you think? i'm getting into the last name thing, what do you think in this? not many years ago, maybe ten or fifteen years ago, bobby rigs, a tennis champ challenged billy jean king and lost.
what do you think of him and these women fights? he seems to glory in them. he gets into this stuff. do they push his buttons, as they say, or why -- tonight he did stop. your thoughts? >> look, to some degree, it's a question for a psychiatrist. i can't explain it. half the country is made up of women, and certainly his comments are disrespectful toward women, whether it was megyn kelly or carly fiorina, but thus far, he has not paid a price for it. i wonder if part of it is a backlash to something that came about in the last two presidential election cycles, which is this cycle of somebody says something mildly offensive, there's faux outrage out of the campaigns. it sends press, are you going to apologize, is this staffer going to be fired. >> and everybody apologizes and he doesn't.
>> after two cycles of the apology tours, people have had enough of it, and he's not paying a price for it. i think if he continues to be serially disrespectful to women, and i think carly fiorina landed a real hard shot to his head tonight with her response to that. it was understated but very effective. >> do you like the way he came back? he broke all the rules. carly has been out there the case, judge women by their brains. what did he do? first of all, he said she was bad looking and then he said she was beautiful, all the while ignoring her content or character and brains, and then he trashes her business sense. how do you do this? and you told me the other night, after the people that showed up for his rally for women in dallas? >> they were. and you ask them, does it bother
you that he says negative things about women. they say it's fair game and part of his showmanship. even when you talk to people who are avid democrats and liberals, they say of all the people in the republican field, they like him the best, because they think he's the most reasonable at heart, despite what he says when he's campaigning. they say he'll say anything to get the nomination but that when he does potentially get into office, if he does, he will tone it down and be more of the liberal guy that he actually is. >> didn't you notice when you talk to him without a lot of cam cameras, he seems much more measured and maybe he's trying to seduce us all, but reasonable. >> i think he's changed as a candidate. he has evolved as a candidate. the tone has changed. what has happened is he's become the front runner and he has adjusted. he likes the position. he wants to keep it. he's changing his temperament. we're watching it day by day. >> that's true.
tonight with the skrum we just had, he didn't -- >> governor kasich is here. >> this is like an old television show where people show up. we kasich. we had bob walker here a minute ago. >> bob walker. >> i want to know how much trouble you're in when i tell you right now an television that a lot of people thought you did well tonight, and you have a lot of democratic fans out there who talked to me all the time and say of all the republicans, i like kasich. does that hurt? >> chris, of course not. i want -- look, you and i worked together for many years where we could have our disagreements, but we always found a way to put the country first and get things fixed, right, and sometimes we had disagreements where we couldn't fix it. we're not going to function great as a country if we can't
solve problems, and how are we supposed to be a power in the world if we're alone. >> why does your party ignore your comment? we need the brits and the chinese and the russians or there ain't going to be no boycotts or sanctions. that's logical. they'll buy the same stuff from somebody else. why don't people hear that in your party? >> i'm saying it, chris, and you're hearing it. i mean, am i the only one? look, i just think that, first of all, i think a lot of it is i was there for 18 years on that defense committee, and your old boss, tip o'neal, created the space to put me on the committee. working with gary hart and barry goldwater, you learn a lot about how the world works from the great minds of defense. i learned a lot then. i know it matters that we have good allies. that's how we won world war ii. >> everybody out tonight, it reminds me, politics does, of an
middle eastern suk saying everybody is working their own stalls. rubio was trying to prove to the rest of the daddy war bucks how height wing he is. carly fiorina was getting even with trump. and huckabee is reading his religious right. what is your constituency? who are your people? >> i'm not worried about standing out. i'm going to just tell people what my experience is, what i've done in the past and what i want to do in the future. >> who are your kasich people? >> you have to figure that out. i don't think that way. >> people who like executive ability. >> in new hampshire, there they get a chance to poke you, see what you think, and the more i'm out there. >> you dropped a lot of money
there in advertising. >> a lot of people did. they didn't do so well. >> is that your kind of state? >> you know who i think my state is? every state i go to. i'm not going to change my message. you need three things to become president. >> ohio. >> you do. you need issues, vision, and people have to like you. if you don't have two of the three, you can't win. >> he seems like your kind of republican. live free or die kind of die. ask him a question. >> september 17th -- >> i can't hear him. >> when you look over the next 60 days. >> he can't hear you. >> governor, september 17th. >> i can't hear a word he's saying. >> over the next 60 days, what do you have to do to start putting yourself in a position to get yourself as a nominee of the party? how do you see the race?
>> look, i have people signing up all over the country now. i mean, trent lot is here with me tonight. it's amazing. we're raising money, and i have to be out there and around, and you would be shocked at the kind of people who are now wanting to talk to me. it's amazing. so we just have to keep it going. i have to keep having fun, keep can my energy level up. i'm going great. i mean, i may actually have more energy than chris matthews. i know that's hard to believe, but i might. >> that's not conceivable. >> i'll tell you something. it's always so much fun to be with chris. i used to host your show when you were out, and then you stopped me because my ratings were so good. >> i doubt. i think it went to fox. is the old republican party of the northeast, probusiness, but nixon called them the cloth cut republicans. not the elite, the donor class. is that party still there that's
not right wing or far right? >>. >> look at the people that we've nominated. remember this about me. i'm an inside outside guy. i've been a reformer my entire career, but i used to want to knock the walls of the city down. now i'm running the city. but you know what i learned? i can still be a big reformer, and now i can put my hands on the dials and bring about the change which i've done in ohio. >> you are not an outsider. they are doing well in the polling right now. are you concerned about your ability to overcome the establishment? >> i thought you said it was the outsiders. >> they're doing well. >> here's the bottom line for me. to me, at the end of it all, people want to know if somebody can land the plane. they can have all this talk, but they want to know the plane can be landed. i've landed a lot of planes. passengers are pretty happy, and i didn't even serve any drinks. maybe a new peanuts. >> where are you going with
that? >> say it's december. and trump and carly fiorina are doing well in the polls. what are you going to do? >> i'm going to do my best. if i works, great. >> we can't give you the whole night, but i want to tell you my theory. i like you politically. let's go through it. i think there's always a dynamic, synthesis. trump and cruz and rubio are out there. on the other side, you have you and governor bush, and probably in a weird way, governor kr christie no matter how he talks. if trump doesn't make it, there will be a movement toward somewhere in the middle. it won't be a washington guy. it won't be a far right ring outside guy. it'll be somebody with executive experience, somewhere where the party has a sweet spot. is that still there? >> of course. >> is it you and rubio as a ticket, something like that? i've heard that as a
possibility. you as a governor, rubio as the running mate. that makes sense to me. you ever think about that? >> i'll think about it tonight. >> i want to thank governor kasich for coming here. >> thank you. >> i want to thank steve schmidt who i often agree with, and thank you gentleman. the real republican party of our grandparents and parents is still here and alive. and thanks to robert kos inwho gave us the scoop on what donald trump had to say after i think he lost the debate. coming up, who didn't show, who has the staying power to keep going in the race? much more ahead. we're cutting it apart here inside the spin room. this is hardball's coverage of the presidential debate live from the reagan library. >> for someone who's been in their system their whole life, they don't know it's broken.
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welcome to the moment no one's been waiting for. the fastest internet and the best tv experience is already here with x1. only from xfinity. >> these are extraordinarily dangerous times that we live in. and the next president of the united states better be someone who understands the issues and has good jupt about them. the most important obligation that the federal government has is to keep this nation safe, and today we are not doing that. we are eviscerating our military, and we have a president that is more respectful to iran than he is to the prime minister of israel. >> there were 16 candidates on the stage today. counting both meetings today, 15 of them appeared at the debates
tonight. the next debate is 4 2 days away on october 28th. a long time. how many of the 16 candidates will still be in the race at that time? rick perry is out. who is going to get out and will tonight's debate expedite some of the departures. we assessed the performance and to improve upon them. let's listen to what they've been saying in the spin room. >> i thought it was a lot of substance tonight. i thought the questions were good. i thought jake and the team were excellent. i thought they were excellent, and i thought cnn did a really good job. ted, do you agree with that? if he agrees, i agree. >> the one thing i wanted to stress tonight was any record. i know how to land a plane. i'll give everybody an a. how is that correct? is that politically correct? >> do you think trump's celebrity has overshadowed this process? >> i think it will play out over the course of time.
he will either begin to put some meat on the bones of what he's saying, or he'll fade, one of the two. >> i'm joined by former chair of the rnc, and chairman of the american conservative union. let's talk about some of the people who weren't in the top three, meaning fiorina got a lot of heat and action. and the president, donald trump, he's not the president yet but the front runner, and dr. carsencarson did well. kasich always does well to a point. >> to a point. >> it was interesting how they were stacked up. >> they lined up physically? >> i think the middle part of the stage, maybe they got more time, but they seemed to score more points. i look at the ends, huckabee and rand paul, and i didn't feel like they scored as many points. >> that's parallel to the votes coming in. >> that's right. >> the better were in the
middle. >> that's true, but the way it played out, over three hours that the guys at the end would get a little more time than they did. that factored in. >> it was three hours. they all got a lot of time. >> everybody took a shot at trump. the first 20 minutes was all trump. all of a sudden you're eating into what you're going to do in the back end. but in terms of who moved up a little bit, chris christie did himself a good job tonight. he moved himself back -- >> he didn't look hurt. >> i thought he looked strong. >> many people tonight look on donald trump. a lot of contestants measured their plan by how they went against him. did any of them land an effective low? >> i think there's a sophomore quality that is entertaining about mr. trump. his haeblt to attack people on their appearance, short, fat, tall, ugly. that happened in junior high.
would we not be worried to have like that in charge? >> we don't need an apprentice in the white house. we have one right now. >> the one thing that only the federal government can do right now, and the president better be up to date on these issues. >> we're at a cross roads. are we going to take the reagan approach, the hopeful approach, or the donald trump approach. the thought that everything is coming to an end and is bad? >> rubio has a boy state aspect to him. he has the best delivery. he's memorized all the names. he took it to trump, you don't know all the names like i do. i just wonder, is that presidential material in the age of obama, or should republicans be wary of doing it again? isn't that weird? >> you're asking the converse of trump, and people say he doesn't
know everyone's names, and he can't put out plans. voters don't care about that as much as will you go whack washington with a two by four. it's a strange moment. a lot of people in that room look at what trump did tonight and say he hurt himself. my guess is he didn't. >> so you still, how much do you hate the way things are? >> that's right. >> i think that's true, but i also think there was a little bit of the patina taken off of him by carly fiorina tonight. i think there were some significant moments where trump effectively threw up the white flag when he goes -- >> would you have done it or not? >> yeah. >> you have to put up the flag when another woman fights you? he can't keep fighting women. >> he's a smart guy. >> i said last time he threw up the flag with megyn kelly. better have the rounds. >> there's a difference. megyn kelly is a good fall, because she's a journalist. you saw the reaction. carly fiorina is an equal.
she's a businesswoman like him. she's a candidate for president like him. so suddenly the dynamic is different, and he's a smart enough man to know -- >> she's good. >> she's very good. >> she executes. she is someone who's ready to answer these questions. by the way, chris, she doesn't just memorize names for a debate. she's thought this stuff through. you can see the difference. >> i thought that trump is constantly thinking now. he wasn't before. >> that's right. >> he's thinking do i want to take this fight? do i want to make admissions like he said tonight, i don't know the names. i'll learn them when i get in there. that's an amazing concession. hillary clinton values that stuff. she'll say he doesn't know the names? he doesn't know the quads from the kurds? >> it's not going to help hillary, because that is something that resonates with people because they don't know the names. so the idea that he's being
honest about that, and authentic -- >> this is not a res mume election. >> let's watch this. >> i have no argument with having a strong leader, and to be aggressive where aggression is needed. but it's not needed in every circumstance. there is a time when you can use your intellect to come up with other ways to do things, and i think that's what we have to start thinking about. >> radical terrorism the k not be solved by intellect. they need an operating space. that's what afghanistan was for al qaeda. you cannot allow radical jihadist to have a safe haven anywhere in the world. >> there he is. the battle was a guy, one guy carson says think it through. we deny them until they get the message. rubio was like bomb them. it's this visceral, i think he's
playing to the money people. i'm sorry. i think every time he talks, he's daddy war bucks willing to give millions of dollars. and he wants to fight everybody. who swas fighting over the chinese islands tonight? icbm? this was apocalyptic. >> it's where our party is. because there's confusion. there's a real conversation in our party about was bush right? was cheney right? >> does anybody think the iraq war made sense to make us safer? >> i think those that like -- that want to give a positive answer, the best think they can say is history will be the guide. it's the best answer. other folks say a disaster. but rand paul fell into stereo type. legalize drugs.
>> if you're super hawkish, proisrael, you know a big mistake was made. what was the biggest buffer between israel and iran was iraq. they fought to the death. how many years of warfare? they did it. now israel is all alone in the region, and now you have isis there. >> what was happening on stage is who do they look back to who has it right. it's a big scary military that you seldom use. >> everyone was united in afghanistan, everyone divided over iraq. up next, someone who knows donald trump and understands the reality television game. we're watching right now. in fact, apprentice contestant clay aiken joins us in a minute. this is hardball live from the
reagan library. back after this. >> he said that, quote, if my wife were from mexico, i think i would have a soft spot from mexico. did mr. trump go too far in invoking your life? >> he did. to subject my wife into the middle of a political conversation was completely inappropriate, and i hope you apologize for that. >> i hear financiphenomenal thi. i don't know her, and this is a mischaracterization. >> she's right here. apologize to her. >> i won't do that. i said nothing wrong. diabetes, steady is exciting.
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helps defend against occasional digestive issues. with three types of good bacteria. live the regular life. phillips'. >> i may be an entertainer because i've had tremendous success with number one best sellers all over the place with the apprentice and everything else, but i will tell you i am a businessman, and that's the kind of mind set that country needs. >> welcome back to hardball. donald trump talking always the way your mother told you not to, bragging about yourself. he tried to play down his roll as an entertainer, but he's managed to turn this race into a reality tv show. it's all about how well trump is doing on the camera.
i'm joined by clay aiken. he's a former congressional candidate for north carolina. he competed on american idol himself and was a contestant on the apprentice. i'm also joined by erin pike. thank you for coming back. glad to have you back. clay, what is he like? i always thought that thing he did in the apprentice, very quiet, no music, no audience, quiet room. he sits there stone-faced, almost the way that megyn kelly did that night. right. >> stone-cased like this. you're looking at him deciding if he's going to get fired or not. the drama, but now he's a contestant himself. >> he has the same face, that scowl. >> yeah. pursed hips, a pursed lips. i am fascinated. i've never seen politics like this, left, right or center.
no how long can he keep up this thing? donald trump against the republican establishment? >> how well? i said a few weeks ago anybody who underestimated him was a little short-sighted who counted him out. three or four weeks ago, never thought higher than 20 or 30. >> is this a person or the guy you meet? >> i think for the most part, yeah. he's a nice person, and he's a nice person and he's very gracious in person, but i think after so many years of creating a persona, it's hard to shed it at any point, and somewhere along the lines, someone told him never apologize for anything. this is what success looks like. and i think he keeps that up. >> so many apologies are phony because you're pressured into it. >> he didn't do that. jeb bush asked him to apologize directly to his wife, and he refused to do it. >> he said she's a beautiful person and all that stuff. what do you make of that never -- you know? >> he's not going to do it.
of course if he's not going to apologize for any reason, and he's been saying highwe doesn't apologize. of course he wasn't going to be taken down to that level on stage. >> let's take a look at hillary clinton. she had some fun with the tonight show's jimmy fallon. here she is in a sketch that just aired on tv. >> donald, i've spent my entire career fighting for women's rights. i'll push for equal pay in the workplace for protecting women's health and reproductive rights, making quality affordable child care a reality for families. that's what i believe in. that's what i'm fighting for. i'm really curioucurious, donal. what's your stance on women's issues? >> i know a lot of women, and they all have issues. [ laughter ] >> all the things you're not
supposed to say. tonight on carly fiorina. he said she was not good looking. tonight he said she was beautiful. at no time did he say she was worth anything as a corporate leader. >> she won that round completely with her classy, graceful answer. i mean, we expected not a lot of applause because it was a maul roo -- small room. >> in soccer, you get a free kick. i thought she had a free kick. >> she did, but the worst moment for hillary clinton in this debate was brought about by carly fiorina when carly fiorina said i know that flying is an activity, not an accomplishment. that was a huge moment. >> can a man do that? >> i think it takes her. hillary clinton has been talking about all the miles she flew as secretary of state. she's been using that for a long time. she got a good line in. >> a great shot by carly fiorina
against washington talk. in washington everything is billable hours, lobbyists, pr people. i've been working really hard? nobody asks anybody who do you get done? it's input, not output. she was paying, i put a lot of time in and travelled to a lot of countries. that's how washington people talk and it drives the rest of the country crazy. they wouldn't mind having those trips. i would like to visit paris and africa, and she's saying how tough it is. >> that's why all three of the leading contenders are all outsiders this ground swell of support for people who aren't speaking that way. the gop lek relect rat, 60% of vote. >> governor of ohio, an executive position, but he's a washington guy.
is there any way the republican party can come back and pick somebody to run against hillary clinton or sanders, probably hillary clinton has an establishment figure? is that over with? can they run somebody like that that they used to run but have said they're not going to run somebody like that? >> i think they'll end up there. >> it's so hard. john kasich is very much running an establishment campaign, even though he's saying he's not. in new hampshire, he has the same establishment backers that mitt romney had, and he's running on the fact that he is a governor and that he was in the house of representatives for 18 years. he's an establishment candidate. >> chris christie has a different tone to his establishment. >> i like kasich. he's a deal maker and reasonable. he believes in making things work. it isn't just a talker. clay aiken, you know this guy, you should write a back about trump. >> still ahead, much more from
the reagan library. you're watching hardball, the place for politics, especially tonight. >> mrs. clinton is going to have to defend her track record, her track record of lying about benghazi, of lying about her e-mails, about lying about her sir servers. she does not have a track record of her accomplish. s. i've traveled around the globe, but i know that flying is an activity. it is not an accomplishment. mrs. clinton, if you want to stump a democrat, ask them to name an accomplishment of mrs. clinton. [ music playing ]
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at that face. would anyone vote for that? can you imagine that, the face of our next president. he later said he was talking about your persona, not your appearance. please feel free to respond. >> i think women all over this country heard very clearly what mr. trump side. >> i think she's got a beautiful face, and i think she's a beautiful woman. >> boy, you know, you have to hand it to the economy of words. she handled it well. don't overdo it. hit the home run, circle the bases and sit down. that's what she did. welcome to the reagan library. joining me is the political editor of msnbc.com. rand paul is doing poorly in the
polls right now. he seemed to get man handled a bit by donald trump tonight. >> i'm a military person, but you have to know when to use the military. i'm the only person up here that fought against going into iraq. >> can i make a response? >> just a second. >> you know, you are on last -- you have your 1%. >> you know, there he is, chopping down a guy who was agreeing with him. they were both against the iraq war, and for the fun of it, he whacked him, down to your under 1%. that is so high school. again, i'm sorry. >> straight out of the gate. remember? one of the very top of his answer, he goes after rand paul for seemingly out of nowhere, and then suggests that there are many things to criticize about the way that rand paul looks. clearly, he was out to pick a fight with paul. >> are they trying to windl the
field? >> i don't know. he seemed to have, throughout this whole campaign, liked jabbing at rand paul. there's something he doesn't like. at a press conference recently in new york, he was asked about are you happy carly fiorina is getting in the debate. he said yeah, but rand paul has to go. he has this sort of thing about rand paul. >> could it be he's trying to teach them all a lesson in don't come after me. >> it worked but not against carly fiori carly fiorina. >> i thought he broke all the rules of hr. there's all kinds of rules when you work at nbc. the rules are you don't talk about somebody's looks. if you know somebody, might say nice dress but carefully. you can say attractive, but you can't say beautiful and you can't say ugly, and you can't talk the way he talks. he gets a rise out of his crowd when he does it. >> he does. >> she knew it was all bs, she
wanted him to say it, if i were here, i'm pretty smart. >> any professional woman will tell you they face this challenge every day in the office. how do you accept a compliment for your looks when you want to be recognized for what you're doing. >> here comes the biggest blooper of the night. when asked who would be the best woman to be put on the $10 bill, jeb bush suggested former british prime minister, margaret thatcher, not known to be an american. let's watch. >> i would go with ronald reagan's partner, margaret thatcher. probably illegal, but what the heck. it's not going to happen. >> first of all, it probably is going to happen. what's he talking about? >> it could happen. i have to say someone else as beth mentioned earlier, did mention mother theresa. also not an american but harder to assail. we had mike huckabee saying he'd put his wife on the bill.
>> i would say, and i'm a complete lefty on most things. i like eleanor roosevelt. the more i read about it, the more i know about her role in the 1930s. she was the person who was out there looking out for the people in real trouble. >> i also found it fairly shocking that they had so much shocking coming up with a woman to put on the bill who they weren't related to. >> that wasn't a joke. >> no. a woman is going to be put on the bill. >> susan b anthony came out of the gate from rand paul. that was the most american answer to that question. >> and rosa parks was a good one, but there were so many others they could have chosen and they were stumped. it was shocking. >> tonight lindsey gram wham wa able to deliver some pretty funny lines at the first debate. a lot of people thought he was
the carly fiorina of this one. he won the first debate tonight early in the evening. >> i wasn't the best law student. by the end of this debate, it'll be the most time i've spent in any library. ro ronald reagan sat down with tip o'neal, the most lip ral guy in the house. they started drinking together. that's the first thing i'm going to do as president. we're going to drink more. >> the always say the irish are drinking together. >> lindsey graham is doing his part. >> i thought he did well. he was honest as a couple of the other ones were about the complexity of immigration reform. no you have to do it all. you have to deal with the fact of illegal hiring and people, with how long they've lived here. he was honest and so was carson and rubio. they were not all whako. >> rubio and lindsey graham were
involved in the senate. it's crazy for them to walk away from it. i also thought he was so much better, lindsey graham. the first debate, he was sour and sort of -- today he came alive. he's funny and whitty and smart. he let it go and was loose. it worked for him. he did well. >> he wants ground troops to fight isis. that's for sure, in both countries, iraq and syria. we'll be back with much more from the reagan library.
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we're back with beth and casey. what do you think is going to be written down for tonight for history. ? it was the night that carly fiorina stood up and trump met his match. >> really, the strongest female republican woman we've seen on a debate stage to date. >> in history? will she get on the $10 bill? just kidding. >> watch scott walker. >> thank you. that does it for this special edition of "hardball" live from the reagan library. join us tomorrow night at 7 eastern for more "hardball" from here. we'll be right back tomorrow night. i lost my sight in afghanistan, but it doesn't hold me back. i go through periods where it's hard to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. non-24 is a circadian rhythm disorder
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big night for fiorina. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews live at the reagan presidential library in simi valley, california, site of the second republican presidential debate. here's what i saw tonight. candidates advancing their cause with a constituents they each need to win the nomination. senator marco rubio was clearly out to prove himself the strongest, best informed most articulate ha