tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC October 1, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT
benghazi and admit today kevin mccarthy it was all about politics, all partisanship. it is not going to make them look good after this. that's it for "hardball." lots of news keeps coming. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in". >> everybody thought hillary was unbeatable, right? >> giving up the game on benghazi. >> we put together a benghazi special committee, a select committee. >> a top republican confirms it, the benghazi committee was designed to stop hillary clinton. >> what are her numbers today? her numbers are dropping. >> tonight, the top democrat from the benghazi committee joins me live. then, donald trump's latest campaign ploy. why the republican front-runner is now courting televangelists. and the eruption over the secret meeting between kim davis and the pope. >> i just want to give god the glory. his peoples have rallied and you
are a strong people. >> "all in" starts right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the worst kept secret in washington is finally out. ever since john boehner and the gop led house in a largely party line vote formed the select committee on benghazi, all the way back in may of 2014, republicans have insisted that benghazi committee was a nonpartisan effort to get to the truth behind the attacks that left four americans dead. they have taken umbrage at the notion that the committee had anything do with politics. >> this was all about getting to the truth. there is not going to be a side show. there is not going to be a circus. this is a serious investigation. >> i have said from day one, i want this to transcend politics and i want it to inspire trust in you and our fellow citizens. >> what we need are facts. the american people deserve the truth about what happened, and that's all we're interested in. >> i think the american people have a right to know the truth, and i think secretary clinton
has responsibility to tell it. >> that last gentlemen there, that's kevin mccarthy, the house majority lead, widely expected to succeed john boehner as speaker next week. last night, that same mccarthy was on fox news and perhaps he broke with the party line, finally seeming to concede what democrats have long suspected, that the benghazi committee is all about taking down hillary clinton. >> everybody thought hillary clinton was unbeatable, right? but we put together a benghazi special committee, a select committee. what are her numbers today? her numbers are dropping. why? because she's untrustable. but no one would have known any of that had happened had we not fought -- >> now democrats pounced on that comment with the senior democrat on the benghazi committee, elijah cummings, saying mccarthy admitted the committee was not about getting to the facts and it is shameful the republicans
used this tragedy in the death of our fellow americans for political gain. senator barbara boxer sent boehner a letter calling him to disband the committee which she called an abuse of taxpayer funds and then there is clinton herself who addressed the comments today in an interview with al sharpton which will air on sunday. >> i find them deeply distressing. i knew the ambassador that we lost in benghazi. along with him, we lost three other brave americans who were representing us in a very dangerous part of the world. there have already been eight investigations in the congress. one independent investigation. we have learned all we can learn about what we need to do to protect our diplomats and our other civilians, and we need to be enforcing and implementing those changes, which is what i started, and what secretary kerry has continued. so when i hear a statement like
that, which demonstrates unequivocally that this was always meant to be a partisan, political exercise, i feel like it does a grave disservice and dishonors not just the memory of the four we lost, but of everybody who has served our country. >> the statement today, a spokesman for mccarthy played down the comments stating that these inquiries have nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the consequences of what the former secretary has done and confusing and conflicting and her false responses. his office did not respond it our request for him to join us tonight. as clinton pointed out, even before the latest benghazi committee formed, eight standing congressional committees had already investigated the attacks, none found serious evidence of wrongdoing. this latest committee chaired by trey gowdy has now been operating for 510 days. on monday, it officially became the longest special
congressional investigation in history, surpassing the watergate committee, one of many investigations that had to deal with a far more sprawling and complicated set of facts. benghazi committee has now gone longer in the investigation into hurricane katrina, longer than the investigation of the bombing of pearl harbor, longer than the warren commission on the assassination of president kennedy, longer than the iran/contra investigation and now as i just said, longer than the watergate investigation. and who knows when it is going to end. clinton is scheduled to testify before the benghazi committee on october 22nd, final report from the committee is expected next year at the height of the presidential campaign. joining me now, adam schiff, a member of the committee on benghazi. were you surprised to hear your colleague kevin mccarthy say what he said? >> surprised only in the sense that he was speaking out loud what we have long suspected. so it was much more blatant acknowledgement of the real
purpose of this select committee. but of that purpose has been apparent for quite some time, a month ago i wrote an op-ed calling for the committee to be disbanded. here we are, as you point out, one of the longest investigations in the history after having promised the families it would be a nonpartisan neutral inquiry, we have nothing new to add to what was already known about benghazi, we have no new insights, no new revelations or evidence, and i think we have really betrayed the trust of those families that we met with at the beginning of the investigation. so it is time to shut this down. what representative mccarthy merely did was to acknowledge the truth at the very highest levels of the republican leadership in the house, this has always been and remains all about hillary clinton and has very little to do with the facts of benghazi. >> if that's the case, let me ask you this, there was considerable group of voices when this committee was first
created, that said democrats, it was clear what the purpose of the committee was and the democrats should take no part in it, they should refuse to appoint anyone to that committee. nancy pelosi decided to appoint members such as yourself. was that a mistake? >> i was the first to say that i thought democrats should not participate in the select committee because i feared this is where we would go. our leadership debated it and frankly even though that was my position, it was a close call. had we not participated, the committee would have even less oversight by the other -- the minority party, we would have less voice when they were calling in witnesses and abusing them, so it was a tough call and i can't say that it was the wrong call. but certainly the fears that i expressed at the very beginning have only materialized, and that is this has not been about what took place in that tragic night when we lost four americans, this has been as representative mccarthy said this is the way
they have decided to fight and win in the elections by tearing down the likely democratic nominee. >> is there anything congressman gowdy, who now has presided over the longest congressional investigation in history, apparently, is there anything he with do to repair the trust or credibility of this committee's work? >> no, i don't think so. i think that water is well under the bridge by now. we have to bear in mind, this is only the latest and most blatant acknowledgement of what the select committee is about. but if you look at the way the committee has operated, not with standing these promises that were made by the speaker and by our chairman and the very beginning, they have not worked with democrats at all, they have called witnesses without telling us, they have subpoenaed people with armed martials who are willing to cooperate. and they have interviewed witnesses without even notifying the minority party. and when those witness interviews didn't corroborate, the conspiracy theories, they didn't tell us we had to learn about those interviews ourselves. so --
>> let me make sure i understand that. the committee has interviewed witnesses without notifying democrats on the committee that those interviews were going to happen? >> absolutely. they have interviewed several witnesses. they didn't tell us they were going to interview them, didn't invite us to participate and listen to the interviews. when we found out the interviews took place and talked to the witnesses, we learned they didn't corroborate any of the conspiracy theories the republicans have been trying to advance. >> how could that be? that's not -- maybe i'm wrong here -- that's not the way the committees work. there is an agenda that is circulated to the entire committee. there is a list of witnesses. there is a procedure that the committee has all read in on. >> they just ignored it. to give you another example, when they subpoenaed a witness and this is a chairman who said he won't leak transcripts, won't leak interviews, after almost all of the interviews there have been profound leaks from the committee, and when democrats said if you're going to leak the statements of the witness, why don't you release the entire transcript. if you're going to leak e-mails from this witness, release the
entire transcript of their private interviews so they can evaluate the context. we have the right to have a vote on this. and they have denied us a vote on it. >> representative adam schiff, thank you very much. joining me now is gubernatorial candidate wendy davis who today endorsed hillary clinton for president. your response to kevin mccarthy's comments about what he sees as the saltory effects of the impanelling of the longest congressional investigation in history. >> much like the congressman said, just a moment ago, i don't think any of us are truly surprised that that was the purpose of these hearings, this investigation. what we're surprised about is that they were blatantly admitting that that's what their purpose was. and, of course, the saddest part about it, the most disgusting part about it is that taxpayer
dollars have been spent in a way that is completely disrespectful to the families of the four brave americans who lost their lives there, in a political witch-hunt. it is much like what we saw in congress yesterday with the hearings that cecil richards was a part of, a witch-hunt. i think americans are coming to a greater understanding that the republican party is on the wrong path. it is not talking about the issues that matter to families and the issues that we ought to be talking about as part of the selection. >> do you think hillary clinton has as of yet received fair treatment from the media more broadly, the republicans are going after her, she's been the presumptive nominee, front-runner for a long time, though she's got a very contested primary right now. but do you think the media generally has treated her fairly so far? >> you know, hillary has laid out so many detailed platforms, so much detail about her plans
if she is elected as the president of this country. and there hasn't been a great deal of attention provided to that. we have heard, of course, many of the issues that republicans want us to be talking about, not only in the republican primary debate, but also the messaging that they're hoping to get out about hillary clinton. when what she is talking about are the very things that americans want to hear. what are we going to do to address the incredible income inequality in this country? what are we going to do to address equality of pay and making sure that we have workplace policies that work for working families, what are we going to do to make sure that our education system is strengthened and that we do something about the crushing burden of student loan debt in our colleges across this country today? these are the issues that americans care about. these are the ones that they
want to see leaders in this country addressing them. i hope that the media will give more attention to the fact that she's been talking about these things for quite some time, and in great detail. >> let me ask you this. you use the word witch-hunt several times and compared it to what happened yesterday with cecil richards in that very contentious committee hearing. do you think this is animated by gender -- are they going after hillary clinton because she's a woman? >> i don't think so. they're going to go after the presumptive nominee, whoever that is. she's clearly leading. she's been leading in the polls all along. she's actually shown she's strengthened in the last couple of weeks compared to many of the republican folks who are in the republican primary platform. and i think that this is going to happen as a result of the fact that she or anyone is leading the pack. the republicans are going to go after her with everything that they have.
unfortunately they're not able to attack her or fortunately they're not able to attack her on the issues that really matter, the things that she is talking about. and so they're trying to distract people from what her record truly is, and what it is that she hopes to do, what her vision is to lead this country forward. >> wendy davis, thank you very much. catch al sharpton's full interview on politics nation when it debuts at its new time slot sunday 8:00 a.m. here on msnbc. still ahead, as trump's poll numbers start to stall, he turns to televangelists to boost his momentum. a last minute stay of execution, a dramatic turn in a case with many questions still surrounding richard glossip. and the pope stirred liberal hearts after his comments on climate change. those stories and more ahead.
good news is that it looks like the republicans will just barely avoid shutting down the government for the second time in two years. that's a somewhat low bar, but we should celebrate where we can. the bad news is that it looks like republicans will just barely avoid shutting down the government again for the second time in two years. >> just hours before the government was slated to shut down again, the house managed to pass a spending bill to keep the federal government running until december 11th. the majority of congressional republicans voted against the measure. they voted for a shutdown. while over in the senate, looks look a bipartisan effort to overhaul part of a criminal justice system just produced a bill. according to the associated press, the deal struck between some of the senate's most conservative liberal member, judges would have discretion to give sentences below the mandatory minimum. full details are expected to be revealed tomorrow. we'll be right back.
now i hear we want to take in 200,000 syrians, right. and they could be isis. i don't know. did you ever see a migration like that? and i'll tell you right now, and i'm putting everybody on notice, and hopefully this gets outside of this room, and i guess it will with all these crazy cameras going back there, i'm putting the people on notice that are coming here from syria as part of this mass migration, that if i win, if i win, they're going back. they're going back. i'm telling you. they're going back. >> donald trump finished a rally in new hampshire less than an hour ago, his usual affair with a few new riffs. that one about syrian refugees, calling for 200,000 to enter the country.
that's not true. not reflective of the actual policy proposed by the president that would increase the global cap on refugees to 100,000 in the next two years, for all refugees. the president is calling for us to only take 10,000 by next year. trump also claimed there is bad blood between jeb bush and marco rubio. >> and they ask bush, what do you think of rubio? what do you think of rubio? he's my dear friend. he's so wonderful. i love him so much. so they ask rubio, what do you think of bush. oh, he's my dear friend. wonderful. they hate each other. they hate. trust me, i know. they hate so much. they hate more than anybody in this room hates their neighbor. any. but it's political [ bleep ]. do you understand? it is true. >> since the second republican debate, trump has come back down to earth a bit, though he is
still repeatedly in every poll we see the front-runner. he's placed first with ben carson, carly fiorina tied for second place, double digits behind him. the national polling peaked in the second week of september, low 30s, which means trump needs to add to the roughly 25% of the electorate. now trump is courting televangelists, meeting with a group of them yesterday. roughly three dozen leaders attended the meeting at trump tower. paul wright said trump wanted him to pray for them. trump nodded. they laid hands on him and prayed. >> that one calling with lupus, lupus, you foul devil, you bow to the name of jesus. lupus, you bow to the name of jesus. you go in jesus' name. >> lupus, you go, lupus. you vex us with your foul,
lupus. you go. >> joining me now, betsy woodruff. this meeting seems a perfectly natural synergy. televangelists are to ministers what donald trump is to politicians. this is russell moore, president of the ethics and religious commission, trump seems to be positioning himself as the secular version of the wealth and wealth televangelists. what do you think of that? >> i think the parallels couldn't be more direct. you have lots of crazy hairstyles, tons and tons of marriages per capita and promises that if you just do the right thing, you'll have tons of money. in some cases the parallels are almost just one line, not even parallel lines. paul wright, who hosted this meeting, that you talked about, she has a sermon available for purchase on her website called why god wants you to be rich.
she and donald trump have been friends for a long time. several years ago he appear on one of her talk shows and she gave a promo to viewers, she said, if you give $25 to my ministry, if you donate that out of the goodness of your heart as seed money, i'll send you a copy of donald trump's book, why we want you to be rich. god wants you to be rich. trump wants you to be rich. paula wright wants you to be rich. it is amazing. >> you mentioned paula wright. one thing that struck me as we watch the trump phenomenon, there is a solid -- he's not going anywhere. he may not be rocketing the moon like he was two weeks ago. he's the front-runner. a solid 25% that seems pretty solidly in his camp. a big part of what is driving trump is the fact he's a celebrity. he's famous, he was on the apprentice for 12 years. there is this great polling that came out, looking at apprentice viewers and their favorability. so viewers think 62% favorable to 27% unfavorable. nonviewers, 37% favorable, 34%
unfavorable. it is easy to lose sight of the fact that is a core part of the trump appeal. >> oh, yeah. being a celebrity goes -- is extremely helpful. this is america. we love reality tv. we love the kardashians. we love rappers. anybody who is famous. politicians forget that the expectations of being well spoken and being thoughtful and thorough don't necessarily translate into votes. compare the reception that trump has gotten for saying things like he's going to, i don't know, deport 100,000 immigrants or coming to the united states, 100,000 refugees to hillary clinton laying out a very, very granular and detailed plan about the heroin epidemic. what are we talking about more? what excites people more? you know, it is pretty simple. >> he seemed to get a pretty chilly reception. he seems to be aware that if you're going to win a republican primary you do need religious voters and devout evangelicals on your side. he's been very explicitly
courting them. here he is talking at the family research council in july about his relationship to faith. take a listen. >> when we go in church and when i drink my little wine, which is about the wine i drink and have my cracker, i guess that's a form of asking for forgiveness, and i do that as much as possible because i feel cleansed, okay. >> have my little cracker. every time -- i'm not someone particularly religious, but i was raised in a religious household and went to church. this sounds like someone who is speaking about faith as if through a google translate. >> not the most theologically astute comment. evangelicals like him. he spoke at liberty university convocation, ted cruz announced his presidency there, and it is worth watching jerry falwell jr. introduce him and watch the response he got there. he praised him for his business
acumen and conservative politics and for getting obama to release his long form birth certificate and the students went wild. evangelicals like this stuff for the same reason other tea party types like it. >> thank you very much. up next, russia launches air strikes in syria today, allegedly targeting isis. it looks like that isn't the entire truth ahead.
today, russia joined the united states, australia, canada, bahrain, jordan, uae, turkey, saudi arabia and france as the latest country to launch air strikes in syria. devastating civil war is now well into its fifth year. it represents the most direct expression of what we have known all along. the kremlin with iran has been propping up the regime of bashar al assad, supplying it with advanced weapons and military supplies to maintain its grip on key territory and to kill hundreds of thousands of syrians in the process. in his speech at the u.n. this week, vladimir putin proposed an enemy of my enemy is my friend arrangement with the u.s. to take on isis. essentially since the americans are mainly concerned with fighting isis, and the russians and the assad regime are fighting isis too, we should all just team up to fight isis together. now, for the first time, russia is carrying out its own attacks on syrian territory, it looks like isis maybe was not the target. >> it appears they were in areas where there probably were not isil forces this and is
precisely one of the problems with the whole approach. by supporting assad and thereby seemingly taking on everybody who is fighting assad, you're taking on the whole rest of the country of syria. >> taking out other rebel groups including the u.s. backed free syrian army could work in favor of the russian strategy in syria, setting up assad as the only alternative to a full isis takeover. emerging from a meeting this afternoon with his russian counterpart, secretary of state john kerry acknowledged the broader political solution of the conflict remains a long way off. >> even as we don't have yet a resolution with respect to some critical choices in that political solution, we think we have some very specific steps that may be able to help lead in the right direction. that needs to be properly explored and so we finally
agreed we have a lot of work to do. >> vladimir putin justified today's military action saying, quote, the only right way to fight international terrorism and these are international terrorists rioting in syria and neighboring countries is to act preventively to fight and eliminate militants and terrorists on territories that are already occupied by them, not wait until they come to our home. no wonder conservatives in america can barely disguise their jealous admiration for putin's strong man routine.
a shocking turn of events out of the state of oklahoma today as mary fallin issued a surprise order staying a man's execution by lethal injection after prison officials discovered they had the wrong drug. richard glossip scheduled to die 3:00 p.m. central time in oklahoma, fallon ordered his execution postponed for 37 days saying the statement, last minute questions were raised about oklahoma's execution protocol and the chemicals used for lethal injection.
the drug officials obtained is known as potassium acetate. the drug they are meant to have for the execution protocol is potassium chloride. the oklahoma department of correction tells local news station, it is unclear how the potassium acetate was obtained in the first place. oklahoma's lethal injection protocols were called into question following the gruesomely botched execution of clayton locket on april 2014 who would be seen writhing on the gurney. >> after the state began pumping a lethal combination of drugs into the arm of clayton locket, accused of shooting a woman and burying her alive, something went wrong. a reporter was one of the official witnesses. >> he began kicking his feet, lifting his head and his chest off the gurney, grimacing, and a couple of moments he mumbled. >> that botched execution prompted richard glossip and two other death row inmates to challenge the constitutionality of the execution protocol, the drugs used at the united states supreme court, claiming the three drug cocktail used risked
causing unconstitutional pain and suffering. but in june, supreme court ruled against glossip and upheld oklahoma's drug protocol. richard glossip's case has drawn supporters from across the globe and the political spectrum from actress susan sarandon to former senator tom coburn. glossip has been twice convicted in the 1997 death of barry van treise, though he did not actually kill van treise and wasn't even in the room when van treise was murdered. a man named justin snead beat van treise to bat with a baseball bat, prosecutors spared him the death penalty after snead agreed to testify against glossip. snead told prosecutors that it was glossip who had ordered tran treise' death and he is now serving a life term. glossip's attorney saying new evidence shows he was framed for the crime, a crime that put him on death row for 15 years. today's decision marked his fourth stay of execution. joining me now, zeva bransteter who har covering this case for quite some time. zeva, what is going on?
how can it be the case that after all the scrutiny for this state that the very last minute they discover the wrong drug? >> it is hard to believe. i was at the clayton locket execution and, you know, each time another execution comes up, we think surely this is going to go smoothly and it doesn't. i was there two weeks ago when they stayed richard's execution and there today and it was just hard to believe that they had the wrong drug. apparently i'm hearing that they didn't get the drug until midmorning. >> the stay is ordered -- i'm reading from the order, it is due to the department of corrections having received potassium acetate. is that a food additive they accidentally acquired? >> our staff writer talked to an expert who said it is very similar in nature to potassium chloride that stops the heart,
both, depending on volume, when given at equal volume are toxic. so you have to ask the question, could they just not get potassium chloride and did they get this instead and think no one would notice? i hate to think that happened, but, you know, there is a lot of questions that we all have and very few of them are being answered. >> my understanding is that the governor's taking the position that the public does not have a right to know about the specifics of the chain of acquisition for these drugs which have become difficult to acquire, and much of it is sort of protected, shielded from public view. is that correct? >> that is correct. and as for now the prison system is investigating itself. last time she appointed another agency to do that investigation. so there is no transparency over this process, we don't know where the drugs came from, we don't know if the mess up was on the part of the pharmacy, or the
state. i do know the warden now is -- the department of corrections director is in charge of all of this after the change and their protocols and so it is kind of on him to make sure that the drugs are -- the proper drugs. >> zeva bransteter, thank you for joining us. barry, this has been -- this case has gotten a lot of attention because you have a man who son death row for a crime in which he has not linked by any forensic evidence to the murder that was committed and we know who committed the murder. he admitted to it. and the person we know committed to the murder is going to serve a life sentence. >> there is -- you go back and look at the trial and you look at all of the evidence in this case, you see that this individual, snead, who was addicted to methamphetamines and now a lot of new evidence he was breaking into cars, and stealing money to feed his habit, he gave, like, eight different stories about exactly what happened, there is real concern that as the police interrogated him, they injected the idea that glossip might be involved in this.
and gave him a way to give up glossip who has no criminal record in order to save himself. and what happened is that this case got litigated on the whole issue of lethal injection. that's what went to the united states supreme court. >> the supreme court case was -- the appeals were about the constitutionality of this protocol and whether it would cause unconstitutional pain and suffering and violation of the eighth amendment. >> now very good lawyers got involved in the case and as it is received public attention, witnesses are coming forward. individuals who are in jail with snead, to whom he confessed, that glossip, he did it himself, glossip wasn't involved, he lied on glossip in order to save his own life, two of these individuals we now have expert review of these interrogations that raise serious questions, and it got to the point where i wrote a letter with others that was signed by barry switzer, which is good as you can get in oklahoma, the great football coach, but senator coburn and
quite a number of other very notable people, u.s. attorney named john raily jr. in oklahoma, who served for both democrats and republicans so a lot of people came forward and said there is real questions on innocence and then when the oklahoma court of appeals got this past week, two of the judges descented and said there ought to be a stay and the board of parole ought to actually hold an open hearing about this. and a letter was sent, i know, to governor fallin today asking her again with more new evidence to stay it and to allow the parole board to hold an open hearing and then suddenly we have this drug thing. so the silver lining is hopefully she will take this opportunity to finally let this evidence get an open hearing. >> you're someone who spent decades working on cases in which people are innocently convicted, how often does that turn on testimony by an
accomplice essentially who testifies in exchange for a lighter sentence for him or herself. >> well, very frequently and it happens a lot in capital cases, we have pretty good data that sam gross filed and put in the proceedings to the national academy of sciences that there is at least a 4.1% chance of error based on new evidence of innocence in capital cases. so when you -- the issue really before the board of parole and hopefully the governor is that this is the last case you want to execute somebody because there is so much good reason to believe that it may be a wrongful conviction. >> yeah. a woman execute ed yesterday in georgia, different set of circumstances, but she too was not the person who pulled the trigger and it was her boyfriend who killed her husband, her children pleaded for her. i think people have a hard time -- people have a hard time with the idea that two people engage in an act, the first person that sort of testifies against the other against life and the other person gets the
death penalty, something that sort of offends the moral intuitions about that. >> the question about moral intuition, the glossip case is more fundamental about this. every reason in the world to have some serious doubts about it. >> thank you. the pope's visit garnered massive amounts of coverage last week. somehow he met with kim davis without anybody knowing. until now. more ahead. when a moment turns romantic why pause to take a pill? or stop to find a bathroom? cialis for daily use is approved to treat both erectile dysfunction and the urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex.
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last night, news started to break about a secret meeting between pope francis and kim davis, the kentucky clerk who defied court order to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. davis, who is still refusing to issue licenses saying her faith told a conservative magazine inside the vatican her and her husband met secretly with with the pope for 15 minutes last week in washington, d.c. she also spoke to abc news about the meeting. >> i put my hand out and he
rushed and grabbed it and i hugged him and he hugged me. and he said, thank you for your courage. he told me before he left, he said, stay strong. that was a great encouragement. just knowing that the pope is on track, you know, with what we're doing, and agreeing, you know, kind of validates everything. >> davis' lawyer told the new york times she and her husband snuck into the vatican -- they released a photo of the rosaries that she said was given to her. i think it is fair to say there say fair bit of skepticism about the claim. after all, it came one day after her legal team admitted that a photo publicized and circulated as a peruvian prayer rally in solidarity with davis was actually a hoax. and had nothing to do with the kentucky clerk.
then today after hours and hours of speculation, the vatican confirmed that pope francis did in fact meet with kim davis but refused to give any other details about said meeting. the reaction from across the political spectrum was swift. mike huckabee tweeted out, the pope recognized something that the d.c. and wall street chattering class will never understand. the pope's visit, which focused on immigration reform, poverty and climate change had left liberals, particularly liberal catholics or ex-catholics with a sea of goodwill toward this pontiff. so does a private meeting with kim davis who said she's willing to go to jail to deny same sex couples equal rights guaranteed by the constitution, does this change that? debate it next.
joining me now, john savage and shawn king. shawn, you're someone who has been excited about the pope's message. i saw you tweeting about revelation. how do you square this? >> well, i'm deeply disappointed about the meeting. and at the same time, i'm measured because i think some of us read too much into what the pope thinks about gay marriage and the lgbt community in general. i think we imposed kind of out of hope a lot of our views on to him and so when we found out
that he met with kim davis, it was shocking. for me, the pope meeting with kim davis would be like the pope meeting with george zimmerman. i mean, it is pretty shocking. and for me and for so many of my friends, it was a deep disappointment. but i'm choosing to not completely throw him away, because he stands so strong for so many other things that matter to me and to millions of people that i love and care about. so i'm still thinking through it to be honest with you. >> that's a very honest answer. here is what strikes me about this, it is bizarre in certain ways. he made very -- he was very public about what he was choosing to kind of intervene in, in the american political landscape, the blessing of the immigrant child and climate and the little sisters of the poor were fighting obama care, met with them very publicly. what do you make of the secret meeting?
what is that about? >> i think it is very revealing. the pope has said the church needs to de-emphasize social issues, needs to not just talk about gay marriage and abortion. but this secret meeting where he encouraged this woman to continue to discriminate against lgbt couples and then framed her as a conscientious objector, a conscientious objector refuses to serve and then doesn't serve. she refuses to serve certain people. i think it really reveals what goes on with the catholic church under the pope, which is that this de-emphasizing of these social issues is -- i don't wall it a racket or a scam, but a smoke screen that the pope still believes these things, the church -- the church said it is not going to change its position on same sex marriage, but then for the pope to turn around and meet with someone like kim davis, and tell her -- and encourage her to keep it up, keep discriminating against lgbt
couples it just shows that the church wishes it could engage in this activity still. the church was the main driver of homophobia and transphobia for millennia and it is less marketable in the west now and the church is smart enough under francis to realize that. they're de-emphasizing it. to sneak around and encourage the people who are still emphasizing this kind of homophobia, it shows what the church would still be doing if the church could still do it, if it didn't hurt the church to be seen in the west publicly pushing this kind of homophobia. the church will get into bed with people like kim davis and people like mike huckabee from religious traditions that used to describe the pope as the horror of babylon. and the antichrist. and it just shows you that homophobia is really what unites people across different christian faiths now. it is disgusting. >> i went online last night -- >> shaun, please. >> there is one -- in part, we're kind of conspiracy theorists because when we learn this was in the work two weeks ago and know so little about it, i'm starting to wonder who was the motive who was behind
planning the meeting and it seemed like almost an atomic bomb on the whole trip in a sense. and for so many people who saw the trip in a special way, it now has all of us deeply conflicted and i feel like kim davis and i'm by no means a kim davis apologist, but she's a political football and a tool being used by people. i feel like she was used in a sense. and it just makes me wonder even what was the pope told about what she said, what she did, who she was, and what do we really know about that. >> there is this question right, the degree of sophistication in the grand lair ty of who is plotting the pope's schedule, the pope says i got to meet with that -- the woman that came out to the rocky song, i want to make sure we go to her or is it some -- some other group with an agenda? i've seen a lot of people speculating that way.
what do you say to that? >> i don't know. i'm less sympathetic to kim davis than shaun is. >> i'm not sympathetic. i think she's being used by mike huckabee and others in ways that are beyond her. >> bit liberty council and mike huckabee certainly she's being used. i think she has dollar signs in her eyes and this is the path to speaker fees and book deal she already has, she already has a book coming out, being ghost written for her somewhere. and she's going to monetize her oppression by, you know, the lgbt community that just wants its equal rights and equal treatment under the law. i too am wondering who was behind this. which archbishop. who is the archbishop of kentucky? who pushed this on the pope. the pope is not an idiot. that's clear. >> that's the point. this is someone who -- >> not a figure head. he's very involved in what the church is doing. and seems to be very granularly involved in his own public image.
he's obliterated this entire trip. they say they didn't announce this in advance because they didn't want it to distract people from his other messages. his other messages have been completely wiped out and erased by this baffling meetup. >> good discussion. that's all this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> thank you for joining thus hour. busy day today. and a big show tonight because of it. we just got the criteria, finally, for the next republican debate. there has been a lot of worry about who might not make it on to the stage for the next republican debate and questions about whether or not there would be a kids table at the next debate and who would be at that kids table. well, now after 15 million people watched the first two debates, we finally got that information tonight about the next debate. so we have got that ahead for you.