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ground. hillary should want him to get in the race so she can beat somebody. >> it is better to beat biden by a point than sanders by a point. >> tune in sunday morning. we'll be back here monday with mtp daily. steve kornacki picks up our coverage right now. right now on msnbc live the tragedy in oregon, breaking details on what we are learning about the investigation into the suspected gunman and the heroic stories from the victims including one who was shot seven times while trying to save others. we are tracking hurricane joaquin, category four storm not likely to target the east coast but the east coast will be feeling the effects.
and the vat canweighing in on that surprise meeting between pope francis and kim davis. a surprise new report about who else the pope met with. but we start with breaking news in oregon. in the last 45 minutes or so the sheriff in douglas county just identified the nine victims of that community college shooting spree. they ranged in age from 18 to 67. their families passed along some of the memories for law enforcement to share. >> trevon was one of the most positive young men, always looking for the best in life. >> we have been trying to figure out how to tell everyone how amazing lucas was. that would take 18 years. >> they felt jason had found his path. his family says he will be loved and missed. >> quin was funny, sweet, compassionate and such a wonderful, loving person. she always stood up for people.
>> federal agents also said the shooter had 13 different guns. all of those guns were purchased legally. today the campus at that community college is closed for students as they cope with what they have been through in the last day. for sarah cobb it was her fourth day as a college student when she heard the gunshots and took off. >> i got out of the building and ran as far away from the building as i could and took shelter in the campus student center. i'm very lucky. there's some people that didn't make it out of there. i just pray that their families are okay and will be able to cope. >> and we have team coverage of the tragedy in oregon at this hour with msnbc's jacob, morgan and pete williams. we will start with jacob live at
the police command post in roseburg, oregon. obviously, a very emotional moment there with all of the names being released. what is the latest you can tell us at this hour? >> there were new details today at the public safety building. we were at the press conference from which you played clips earlier. in terms of the investigation the most pertinent detail is the cause of the shooter's death is not determined. the sheriff here says they will not release that information quite yet. more importantly and something that everybody here in this community has been waiting for was the names of the victims. the sheriff and his colleagues read the names one by one. i would like to share the names with you. the nine victims were lucera
alkares. quin cooper. 18 years old. his parents say he just graduated in june. yesterday was his fourth day of college. kim dietz was 59 years old also from roseburg. lucas eibel was 18 years old and his family said he loved faa, future farmers of america, volunteering at wildlife safari. jason dale johnson was 33 years old. his family said he was proud to be a christian. he just enrolled and finally found his path at the college. lawrence levine 67 years old, the teacher in the classroom that the shooting occurred. sarena dawn moore was 44 years old. treven anspach was 20 years old, the son of a ifrt firefighter
here here. rebecka carnes, the niece of a paramedic. one of the most emotional moments came when chief revealed there were two fatalities that were families of the ems community here. it was just a truly emotional moment. >> the reading of those names something we expected all day. but when you actually hear them even from a far here an emotional thing. live on the scene there, thank you for joining us. appreciate that. the mother of one of the victims, jason johnson just shared her memories. she says she knew something was wrong when she didn't hear from her son yesterday. she knew he would have called. she remembers him as a proud man who listened to people and who loved god.
>> i will love him forever but i will never see his smiling face again. >> and this was jason johnson's first week as a student at the community college. he was 33 years old. nine other people who were caught in the shooting spree went to the hospital for treatment. morgan ratford is live in roseburg to share stories of the survivors. we heard a little bit from jacob. what else can you tell us about the survivors of this? >> good evening. six of the survivors are still at the hospital, four of whom are in fair condition but two are in critical condition having suffered gunshot wounds to the head and the back. we are hearing tales of heroism emerge one of whom is
30-year-old christopher mintz. he is said to have charged the shooter in order to protect and save the lives of those around him. a go fund me page has earned over a quarter of a million dollars and that is just in the last six hours. we are also learning details about anna boylin whose mother said she was shut in the back and proceeded to play dead so the shooter would not come back for her. the culture of fear that still seems to pervade this campus. many of whom i talked to the students said monday is too soon to go back to school. one was shelby wambal in the cafeteria. >> people pulled out police scanners on their phones and heard they were sending out to everyone get out here now and send as many ambulances as you
can. we are hearing the call of how many people they are thinking is gone. and it just was frightening. >> reporter: as you can see shelby was still trying to make sense of everything that had happened yesterday. the authorities are, too. they are trying to figure out why the shooter did what he did but why he did it here. >> if you have gone through something like that yesterday you start to wonder if there ever will be a right time to go back to campus. thank you for that. and we are learning new information about the shooter today. chris harper mercer was 26 years old. he did not go to school at the community college but did live in oregon. his neighbors describe him as shy. he served one month in the army before he was discharged. we are going to turn to pete williams for more details on this suspect and on the state of the investigation. what is the latest? >> officials say that they found a document at the scene of the
shooting left behind by mercer along with what they describe a hate-filled document. according to those who have seen it thoohe said he would be welcomed in hell and embraced by the devil. they say he lamented he was in the bad way, no life, no girlfriend and showed a detailed interest in other mass shootings. he wrote, as well, on an internet blog about the recent shooter of a television reporter and photographer saying of that gunman, quote, so many people like him are all alone and unknown yet when they spill a little blood the whole world knows who they are. perhaps that is one of the reasons why the oregon sheriff refuses to say his name or talk about him. we learned from federal authorities what weapons they are finding at the scene. this is the part of the investigation handled by bureau of alcohol, tobacco and fire arms. he had 13 guns in all and took
six to the school including a.r. assault weapons with five high capacity 30-round magazines as well as a bullet proof vest and found seven other weapons at his home all of them purchased legally and all purchased either by mercer himself or members of his family within the past three years which indicate they were purchased in oregon. oregon has no ban unlike california where he grew up. oregon has no ban on selling assault weapons or high capacity magazines. >> nbc's pete williams, thank you for that. still ahead, the tragedy in oregon now renewing the debate over sensible gun control. >> this will not change until the politics changes and the behavior of elected officials changes. and so the main thing i'm going to do is talk about this on a
regular basis. and i will politicize it because our inaction is a political decision that we are making. and we are also tracking hurricane joaquin. theurst if shows the storm moving away from the east coast there is trouble ahead this weekend and the vatican is speaking out about the meeting between pope francis and kentucky clerk kim davis. a little twist there. why do so many people choose aleve?
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more breaking news for you. hurricane joaquin is battering the bahamas right now with 130 miles per hour inds with forcing thousands of people to evacuate their homes. meanwhile, the coast guard is searching by air and by sea for a containership that lost all communications on route to puerto rico from jacksonville,
florida. that ship with 28 american crew members aboard disappeared after reporting thursday that they were getting hit by hurricane joaquin close to the bahamas. forecasters say it will track off the coast of the u.s. but effects will be felt by states all along the eastern seaboard. states are preparing for major flooding, strong winds and heavy rains with some areas expecting up to 15 inches of rain over just the next few days. joining me now is the weather channel meteorologist dave schwarz. >> what this storm is going to do is miss the united states. that's the trend. it is still generating big swells or big waves as they head towards the east coast. we have a high potential for rip currents even in florida even though the hurricane itself will miss florida.
it's beginning to take the trip northward and a turn towards the northeast is expected. the only warnings out besides here in the bahamas which is awful since they have had these kinds of winds for a couple of days is for a tropical storm watch for bermuda. what is happening here in the united states has virtually nothing to do with hurricane joaquin. it is strong high pressure over canada. the difference between the high pressure there and low pressure across the southeast is what generates the air to move. these pressure differences. that is why it is so windy with damaging surf right at the coast. >> a wet and windy weekend but i guess this counts as good news given the scope of possibilities here. thank you for joining us. appreciate that. and coming up on the show, one week after the pope's historic visit to the united states the vatican clarifying what that meeting with kentucky clerk kim davis was really all
the politics of the shooting in oregon are at the forefront today. earlier former florida governor jeb bush said this. >> we are in a difficult time in our country and i don't think more government is necessarily the answer to this. >> i had this challenge as governor because we have -- stuff happens. there is always a crisis. and the impulse is always to do something and not necessarily the right thing to do. >> just hours ago president obama was asked to respond to governor bush's statement. >> i don't think i have to react to that one. i think the american people should hear that and make their own judgments based on the fact that every couple of months we have a mass shooting. and in terms of -- and they can decide whether they consider that stuff happening.
but as i said last night, this will not change until the politics changes and the behavior of elected officials changes. >> joining me now is colin goddard, a survivor at the virginia tech shooting. colin, let me start with you. it's sadly since 2007 was virginia tech, here we are eight years later and a number of mass shootings in between and almost a ritual that developed in terms of how these things are discussed publically the day of, day after, weeks after. we get to the political questions a lot quicker now than we used to. >> right. because the politics of this issue is changing it. it's not necessarily on the federal level but the local level but there are more instances now where good gun policy, gun violence prevention
measures are becoming law like in oregon earlier this year, washington last year, several other states passing laws to keep guns out of the hands of domestic abusers. it hasn't percolated to the federal level yet. we haven't had major election cycles. the conversation with the president and advocates like me is one thing. we will tell you the same thing over and over again. i would like to talk to somebody like congressman who chairs house judiciary sitting on hundreds of gun bills that have done nothing. he should be front and center in this conversation and understanding why he has not discussed an issue. that's the person you guys should be talking to. >> you mentioned statistics there. that was part of the press conference that the president held yesterday where he spoke in a way that a lot of people probably no one heard him speak about the issue.
his frustrations around the issues of gun violence and challenged reporters to compare the number of deaths in this country over the last few years linked to terrorism to those lipged to gun violence. you took that challenge. tell us what you found. >> it's pretty striking. so we spend this money on counter terrorism and do almost nothing on the federal level in terms of new regulations to deal with mass killings. since 9/11 the rate of gun deaths in the united states from citizens killed by terrorism is about 1,000 to 1. it is stunning given how much effort we devote to fighting terrorism even when it is a group like isis that doesn't look like it directly threatened the united states. we spend billions of dollars on that. >> i want to play for you a former county commissioner in douglas county, oregon. her son was at the school yesterday when this happened.
thankfully he is okay but she was on our air earlier today and was asked about the president's comments about his desire to politicize this and push for new gun laws as a result of the. she had a very different opinion on it. >> he's using the tragedy in our county to further his anti-gun agenda. all of these shooters are taken out with a gun. >> how common is it when you are out there advocating for gun control how common is it to come up against exactly what we heard right there? >> unfortunately, this issue is always presented as a split dichotomy that you are for gun rights or anti-gun. the reality is those are not mutually exclusive. you can be for the second amendment and for keeping guns away from dangerous people. that is the conversation we are trying to promote. that is where issues like background checks make sense. it is a basic level of
responsibility. a lot of gun owners think that is a simple thing that makes sense. the nra and the media perpetuate black or white, for or against and the reality is the vast majority of americans are in the middle area. that's the real conversation that we are trying to drive. we need elected officials to start having that conversation. the fact that there is silence from a whole chamber in congress is unacceptable. >> i wonder about that question going ahead if you are somebody out there looking for new laws to be passed, colin mentions on the state level in some states there are things that are happening but on the federal level at the end of 2012 you had nearly two dozen children killed in the school in one of the worst instances of gun violence. that didn't prompt action. that bill stalled in the senate. is there any reason to believe
that at the federal level any of the basic realities of politics will change. >> i hate to be the bearer of bad news but absolutely not. there is no incentive for any republican on a national level to take a position that moderately would restrict access to guns in the united states. gun culture in the united states is very simple. any new laws on the federal level according to the nra would be a step towards taking away the guns. that's what they believe. as a consequence it is difficult for any republican to not cross a huge number of people if they want to try to pass new laws. they won't do it. they don't really want to. most of them agree with this point of view. i don't think anything will agree on the federal level and people will keep dying. >> quickly, we are up against the clock. >> there has been no other opposite to the nra at the federal level holding elected officials accountable.
every town for gun safety is building that, holding officials accountable for not doing something. that's the dynamic that we have to have. we have to have majorection lacycles where people win or background checks. >> nothing changes politics like politicians losing their jobs for doing or not doing something. they get the message then. thank you for joining us. we appreciate that. still ahead we are going to go back to roseburg, oregon for more on the investigation into yesterday's deadly shootings. first the vatican opening up about kim davis, what officials there now say about the pope's secret meeting with the kentucky county clerk.
she is the person at the center of opposition to gay marriage in america. now we are also learning that the day before pope francis met with kim davis last week he also met with a some ame-sex couple. the pope is distancing himself from the case of kim davis in a statement the vatican saying pope francis met with several dozen persons as he prepared to leave washington for new york city. such brief greetings occur on all papal visits. the pope did not enter into the details of the situation of mrs. davis in his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position. kim davis and her attorneys stand by the original claim that she met privately with the pope. joining me now is clarence page. we should mention you are something of an expert on all things vatican so the perfect person to talk to about this. we have a mystery. when this story first leaked
mike huckabee saying the pope is with us. now you read this statement and find out about the meeting with the pope. >> good question. i'm not an expert on all things vatican but i had a former religion editor. looks to me as though there was obviously the word leaked out that the pope had met with mrs. davis and that in itself sounded like some kind of an underground conspiracy going on. they better try to tamp this story down a bit and now it is a mystery as to how much the pope knew. he gave kind of a generic
endorsement of objection but that is not necessarily interpreted as support. he met the day before with a gay couple, one of whom was a 19 year student of his years ago in latin america. so he obviously is a man who as we know has taken more of a relaxed attitude towards the issue, issues surrounding gay life styles, gay choices, gay marriage although the church is adamant in the opposition to gay marriage and he has reiterated that. he doesn't make it appear he bears animosity towards gay people. so this is the kind of story
that has generated a lot of talk and people are wondering who arranged for kim davis to come in. >> the vatican is such a mysterious and opaque place. we know tonally this pope has been a bit to the left of where a lot of other people in the church hierarchy are. is it plausible that there are other leaders in the church, leaders in rome who would have snuck her in so they can score pr points? >> it is obviously plausible that people wanted the pope to meet with kim davis and whether or not this was all that sneaky or not the big question. we know that the papal here, the vaticans representative here in washington, archbishop carlo would have had to have approved this and to have been a part of kim davis being included among other visitors who the pope did see briefly here in washington.
it remains to be seen if there be repercussions against him or criticism of him but certainly there are people inside the church hierarchy who wish that this particular bishop hadn't been chosen to be pope, but that happens with any pope. so the intrigue goes on. >> a former religion editor. that makes you more of a vatican expert than me. >> still ahead it is the question that could completely change the democratic race for president. will joe biden run and when will he make up his mind? a challenge for the speakership just days after kevin mccarthy credited the benghazi committee with taking poll numbers. another republican is launching a last minute campaign to become the new speaker of the house. details ahead. stay with us. ay warm. but by night, beautiful, smoother and ready
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pretty soon the hillary clinton campaign can have a very different look. you will likely start seeing more of this guy, the man many people call the big dog. reports bill clinton gradually is expanding his influence in his wife's campaign and the look at the fundraising for the two leaders may give us a glimpse of why hillary clinton's campaign said she raised $28 million in the last three months significantly down from a quarter before and at the same time here is the big surprise. bernie sanders raising $26 million on his own. all of this, of course, comes with one giant question mark hanging over the race. it involves vice president joe biden. biden keeping a busy schedule making stops across the country. he has not yet decided whether he will jump into the race. and that decision is going to have to come soon. we are just 36 days away from
the first primary filing deadline for alabama, the deadline coming in early nevada. october shaping up to be a busy month as biden makes up his mind. this weekend he and clinton speaking at the human rights campaign. on october 13 that will be the first democratic debate. cnn says biden is welcome on the stage as long as he announces his candidacy before it starts. on the 22nd hillary will be testifying before that house benghazi committee something biden's camp will be watching closely. a source telling nbc news that biden is eyeing the second half of this month even into early november as the time to finally unveil his decision. and that one decision could drastically change this race. the "new york times" reports that clinton's camp is making moves to check biden and to shore up their support now. joined now by former dnc chairman ed ran dell, former
mayor of philadelphia. call you governor for the sake of this segment. close with the clintons. let me put the numbers on the screen. this is the most recent wall street journal poll. you have hillary clinton at 42%. bernie sanders at 35%, joe biden at 17%. i'm thinking back six months to when the race first started to take shape, if you told me we would be looking at a poll like this i wouldn't have believed you. >> i wouldn't have either. i don't think anybody was able to foresee that bernie sanders would take such a responsive nerve among democratic voters. that poll is a slide out. hillary clinton is ahead far more significantly in other polls. bernie sanders has done very well. the first two primary caucuses are right in his sweet spot.
progressive democrats predominate in both states. perfect states for bernie to win those first two primaries. >> i want to pick up on that point. i hear that a lot from people around the clinton campaign. you look at iowa and new hampshire. these are overwhelmingly white states. the electorate turns heavily african-american. clinton believing the polls doing very well. that is where i start to wonder about the potential for joe biden. running as the loyal vice president to barack obama, somebody grown very close to barack obama personally, would that give him end roads that bernie sanders can't find right now. >> joe would have a much stronger case what is very strong support and with both latino and african-american
voters. no question about that. joe brings that element into it. could joe peel off some of the sanders' voters? a few but i think there would be a feeling that bernie sanders did the dirty work to prove that hillary was vulnerable and then taking advantage of it. i think a lot of the sanders voters stand fairly firm. >> sort of like the bobby kennedy situation. what do you think? do you think biden will get into this thing? >> i don't have any inside information. i'm good friends with the vice president and i think he has been the best vice president in my lifetime. i don't think in the end he will. number one, when you look at that national poll he has to climb up. he's got to climb up. i think he can peel away a few sanders voters but not many. he would have to go after hillary voters as you properly identified. since joe biden and hillary
clinton both served president obama well agree upon virtually every issue. the only way to do it is by attacking hillary and her character and something like that. and they were colleagues. they are good friends. i don't think joe has a stomach for that type of campaign. i don't think he will. i could be wrong but i don't think in the end he will want to run that type of campaign. if there was a smoking gun forcing hillary clinton out of the race and there is none, but if there was joe would certainly step forward and come to the aid of the party and rescue the party at that point cht that's not going to happen. >> the clock is ticking. if joe biden ever wants to run for president again this is probably his last shot at this. thank you for joining us. coming up back to roseburg, oregon for the latest on the investigation into yesterday's fatal shootings. more breaking news aft s landin
hot water kevin mccarthy suddenly has competition in the race for house speaker. we'll tell you who threw his hat in the ring today. can run in high heels. must be a supermodel, right? you don't know "aarp." because aarp is making finding the career you love, no matter what your age, a real possibility. go to aarp.org/possibilities to check out life reimagined for tools, support, and connections. if you don't think "i've still got it" when you think aarp, then you don't know "aarp." find more surprising possibilities and get to know us at aarp.org/possibilities.
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utah will make a last minute run at the speakership. this news comes after kevin mccarthy's comments earlier this week suggesting the gop led benghazi committee helped tank hillary clinton's poll numbers. >> the point i was trying to make i wasn't -- that committee is to get the truth out. >> we should be clear here. chaffetz is getting a very late start. he only has a week to gather support, less than a week. mccarthy is the leading candidate for the job but still officially 50 republican votes he would probably need shy of the 218 it would take to win the fwavl gavel. let's start with this. i want to play jason chaffetz to give people the background on why this is happening. jason chaffetz said he was on board with kevin mccarthy, the
current number two candidate. this is what jason chaffetz had to say. >> those statements are absolutely inappropriate. they should be with ddrawnwithd to suggest political motivation is not fair to myself. most importantly it's not fair to the four families who lost loves ones. it was never the intention. i think this statement is totally wrong. >> to beat kevin mccarthy chaffetz needs to put two things together. the hard core conservatives. the ones who didn't like boehner needs to put pragmatists in there who maybe look at the comments and say this is not the kind of spokesman we want. >> who knows? with politics you can never predict anything. kevin mccarthy making statements
that is putting him in hot water. i have the mental picture of the blood in the water and they see weakness. mr. mccarthy there is suspicion that he is not one of them. >> do you think with chaffetz do they trust chaffetz more because he is not one of the house freedom caucus? >> i think he is a bit more of a tea party candidate. he is getting very roundly criticized for his handling of the planned parenthood hearing this week with suseal richards that he didn't press the social conservative case when it comes to videos. i think also chaffetz is trying to regain some of that confidence in conservatives after this week's performance on capitol hill. >> i wonder what you make of this. kevin mccarthy we said as soon as john boehner steps down he is the clear overwhelming choice to
succeed him and the strength at least within the republican world was relationships. this is a guy who recruited and campaigned for and raised money for these sort of first and second term republicans who caused boehner so many headaches now has headaches of his own. >> i agree with amy that anything is possible in politics but money matters in politics and if there is one thing we know about kevin mccarthy is he is phenomenal at fundraising. he has raised over $3.2 million for fellow members. and so he has a lot of favors that he is going to call in after boehner after paul ryan we see mccarthy having the biggest purse in terms of money to dole out. i do think that chaffetz is a long shot. i'm not going to say it is impossible but because of the money and the relationships that you pointed out. and i thipg this gives the republican party especially the more conservative element a chance to be angry and air the
frustration with the more establishment wing of the republican party. at the end of the day i think we are going to see the money talk and the members vote accordingly. >> it is a big risk, too, for chaffetz. if he runs and loses badly that could hurt him long term. i want to play a little more from kevin mccarthy. trying to defend and trying to walk back the comments made about the benghazi committee. let's listen to that. >> it was never my intention to ever imply that this committee was political because we all know it is not. applauded by all sides of the ais aisle. it was never my intention to imply anything. and i want to be clear with my colleagues and very clear with the country of where we are going. >> amy, we have all circled on the political calendar that last week inuct a when hillary clinton comes to testify brfr that committee, a big test for her, a big test for her
campaign. have comments about the nature of the investigation changed the game a little bit for hillary clinton ipterms of she has ammunition. >> put arrows in her quiver and also among democrats on the committee who will be asking mrs. clinton questions and probably defending mrs. clinton from republicans that are investigating her. it was not helpful as we heard congressman chaffetz talk about. >> and vicki, i imagine from hillary clinton's standpoint it is obviously some arrows in her quiver but do you theng this changes the damage done to poll numbers. do the comments reverse the numbers at all? >> i don't this go so. i think that democrats are going to keep -- those democrats who support rillry will keep supporting her and republicans who don't support are not going to change their tune. i don't think this is a game changer. >> we are going to find out
intrigue on the republican side of the aisle. kevin mccarthy getting the last minute challenge. thank you and coming up we are going live in roseburg, oregon for an update on that shooting that left nine people dead at a community college. ♪ ♪ (under loud music) this is the place. ♪ ♪ their beard salve is made from ♪ ♪ sustainable tea tree oil and kale... you, my friend, recognize when a trend has reached critical mass. yes, when others focus on one thing, you see what's coming next. you see opportunity. that's what a type e* does. and so it begins. with e*trade's investing insights center, you can spot trends before they become trendy. e*trade. opportunity is everywhere.
criminal justice, immigration and what kind of president she would be. clinton also talked about donald trump. >> i'm going to say two words to you, donald trump. what do you think? >> you know, reverend al, he has been stoking prejudice and paranoia. he has been really appealing to the worst instincts of human nature. i think it is dangerous. his demagoguery is no longer amusing. >> he called you shrill. >> he called me a lot of things now that he is running against me. before he was running he called me a great secretary of state. >> and that is a little taste of that interview. if you want to watch the whole thing in its entirety earn tune into politics nation this sunday october 4 at 8:00 a.m. eastern
turning back to the investigation into the shootings at the community cleeng in oregon that left nine people dead. we are learning new details about the shooter as investigators continue to look into why he went on his deadly rampage. joining us from the police command post in roseburg, oregon. new details about the shooter. what do you know? >> lots of new information this hour. the douglas county sheriff said he was not going to mention personally the name of the shooter but the sheriff's office has posted the name of the shooter online. his name is christopher harper mercer, 26 of winchester, oregon. he was enrolled at umpqua community college. the cause of death is still under investigation as to whether it was self-inflicted gunshot wound or not.
two victims were relatives of first responders. classes at umpqua community college will not resume next week. and now just for the first time pictures of some of the victims are coming out, being released by the douglas county sheriff's department. quinn cooper, lucas eibel, jason johnson and sarena moore. there will be more pictures coming out in the hours and days ahead. counciling and blood drives continue here in support of the victims. >> appreciate the update. obviously more pictures coming out. those are so sad to look at and some of the worst stories you can imagine covering. thank you for watching msnbc live. "hardball" starts right now. gun battle. let's play "hardball."
good evening. in philadelphia for president obama and millions of others it has become apparent and now roseburg that we are seeing a cluster of inaction on gun safety. asked about the government's role jeb bush today said this. >> we are in a difficult time in our country. i don't think more government is necessarily the answer to this. i think we need to reconnect ourselves with everybody else. it's very sad to see. but i resist the notion -- i had this challenge as governor because we have -- stuff happens. there is always a crisis. and the impulse is always to do something. and it is not necessarily the