tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC October 28, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT
tomorrow i'll be in boulder, colorado for the republican presidential debate. join me for "hardball" at 7:00 eastern. after the debate, we'll have two hours of reaction and hard analysis. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> there will be a federal investigation of the officer caught on tape flipping a south carolina high school student. tonight and nia kenny, the student who was arrested after standing up for her classmate joins me in an all-in exclusive. then. >> we have a breaking story. >> donald trump dethroned as ben carson drops two more policy stunners. >> redistribution of wealth. >> and the field gets fed up. >> i've about had it with these people. >> plus, hillary clinton picks up an endorsement from a progressive hero and the politics of crime. >> there's lawlessness in this country. the president encourages this lawlessness.
>> the president pushes back on the so-called ferguson effect. >> i reject any narrative that seeks to divide police and the communities they serve. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the fbi is leading an investigation into the circumstances that led to a police officer's heavy use of force and arrest of a spring valley high school student in columbia, south carolina. several videos of yesterday's incident apparently taken on cell phones of other students in the classroom created an immediate and widespread outrage. >> give me your hands. give me your hands. >> when this story broke last night, we also showed you the second video of the incident. the justice department's civil rights division, the fbi, u.s. attorney's office for south carolina are conducting can the civil rights probe into the
case. two people including the student physically handled there by the officer were arrested for a charge called disturbing schools. the other student arrested a witness who tried to stand up for the student before being detained will join me in just a moment. a third video shows another angle of the aim incident. sheriff leon lott of richland county who was attending a conference in chicago on law enforcement returned today and restated what authorities already claimed, the student refused to leave the class when a teacher and administrator asked her to and when the school resource officer asked her, too. it the sheriff said he was disturbed by weather saw on the videos. >> this is very disturbing. we've seen one, would videos and now we've learned there is a third video. we have a third one that's come forward now. another child or student in that class video that also from a different angle and it shows a different perspective.
it actually shows the student hitting the school resource officer with her fists and striking him. now what she does is not what i'm looking at. what i'm looking at is what our school resource officer did. what was his actions? what did he do? she disrupted class. she was disturbing the other students from getting their education. so she's in the wrong. but does her actions meet the level to what this officer did? that's what we're going to decide. >> the sheriff's claim of the student striking the officer may refer to what she does with her arm involuntarily or involuntarily, it's hard to say when the officer is flipping her over. the sheriff was asked whether there might have been a racial component to the incident pep responded with this. >> i don't know. it's difficult to say that, and i guess in one way, i make that decision based on personal knowledge about this deputy. he's been dating an
african-american female for quite some time now. you know, and so does that have a bearing on his thought process? it may have. but i would think that would have it on a positive way and not a negative way. >> the officer in question ben field is one of the two school resource officers at the high school. he's been placed on administrative duty. officer fields has been sued twice. one of those cases decided by a jury in his favor and upheld on appeal. another case filed by a former student who was expelled in 2013 is set for jury trial in january of next year. the lawsuit said he unfairly and recklessly targets african-american students with allegation afc gang membership and criminal gang activity. fields denies any wrongdoing in this case, as well. today the board of the richland school district 2 condemned yesterday's act in the strongest terms. >> there is absolutely no place in this district or any other district for that matter for what happened here yesterday.
our tolerance for it is zero. i repeat that what happened yesterday and what we all watched on that shamefully shocking video is reprehensible, unforgivable, and inconsistent with everything that this district stands for what we work for, and what we aspire to be. >> the board has caused for an investigation by south carolina's law enforcement division or s.l.e.d. and says it will re-evaluate training of school personnel on the appropriate use of school resource officers and will refer this incident to their existing diversity task force. the school district's black parents association has called for a justice department probe into what it says are long landing discriminatory practices by the school district itself. joining me now pring valley high school student niya kenny who was arrested after standing up for the student in question. also with me her attorney, todd rutherford. can you give us a little perspective what happened in that classroom before the videos all start?
>> well, she was asked to leave the classroom and she refused to leave the classroom. and our teacher then called an administrator in the class and she still refused to leave. and that's when deputy ben fields was called in. >> could you tell us, was her infraction that -- i had seen reports she was looking at her phone. what was what attracted the attention of the teacher initially? >> yes, sir. >> okay. so she was looking at her phone. she wasn't like standing up and yelling or anything like that? >> not at all. she's a quiet girl. she doesn't do anything to anyone in the class. it was because she wouldn't give up her phone. and so our teacher, you know, tried to kick her out of the class. >> the teacher an tried to kick her out of the class because he won't turn over her phone. he calls an administrator. she won't leave. then that's when the police officer comes in, mr. fields. is this something you've seen before that the school resource
officer is called into a classroom situation like this? >> never have i ever seen anything like that. >> were you and other students surprised that it seemed to escalate to that point? >> maybe the other kids were because they were younger and this is like they haven't been at spring valley this long, but i've heard about him. so i wasn't really surprised because i've heard so much about him. so i -- before he came to class, i was actually telling them take out your cameras because i feel like this is going to go downhill because i've heard so much about him. >> this school resource officer in particular, you have already heard about before he came in. what do you mean you've heard things about him? what have you heard? >> oh, yes, sir. he's known as officer slam around our school. and i have heard he's in the past slammed pregnant women, teenage girls.
he's known for slamming. >> one of the things that is so striking in this video is, the other students in the class seem very quiet and scared and contained. no one seems to be intervening. why do you think that was? >> they were scared. they were scared. i was scared myself. but more than likely, they were scared. i feel like the two grown men in the class were also scared theirselves because who's ever seen anything like that? that's not normal for someone to be handled like that, let alone a 16-year-old girl by a 3 lun-pound man. >> the -- you at one point did get up, right, to say -- what did you say in what happened? >> i was screaming, crying like are you guys seriously let this happen? like this is not right. you guys know this isn't right and you guys are really letting this happen right now.
i guess maybe they were in shock, but still, i feel like somebody in the class should have helped her. >> did the teacher or the administrator who were in the class, did they say anything or to the officer say hey, this is excessive or try to intercede in any way? >> not at all. they were both quiet. just like the kids. >> so everyone's sitting there in sigh less watching this happen. you then start saying something. what happens next? >> and then the administrator he caron webb who was also in the class starts telling me sit down, niya, be quiet. put your phone away. i'm just like no, no, this is not right. this is not right. i can't believe you all are doing this to her. >> and then you are eventually arrested? >> yes, sir. >> who arrests you? is it officer fields? >> yes, sir, it was. >> so does he cuff you? >> yes, sir. >> he cuffed you in your class? >> yes, sir, in front of the classroom.
>> mr. rutherford, your client is now facing criminal charges? am i understanding this correctly? >> you are. and all she did was an heroic act and try and stop this monster from brutalizing this child. it's been said before and i was at the waffle house before i came over here listening it people dialogue about this, and one of their concerns was that when they -- an adult, a teacher, an administrator ask a student to do something, that student should immediately do it. while we don't question that, there is no doubt that no one, no human being no, animal should be treated the way that she was treated. shikara was taken by her neck and in doing so, you see her react to what the sheriff says. she laid punches on the deputy which is the most ridiculous thing i've heard. she was then tossed across the room. so far i might add when she was tossed the deputy had to walk over to where she landed. he didn't just step. he threw her so far he had to
walk over to where she landed. it's the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen apartment fact the sheriff is waiting to review the tape that he is not outraged is the most ridiculous thing i've ever hearded. >> all right. todd rotherford and niya kenny, thank you very much for coming on tonight and being so clear and poised. it's impressive. thank you very much. >> thank you for having me. >> thanks. >> all right. joining me now the former st. louis police officer co-founder national coalition of law enforcement officers for justice, reform and accountability. and kimberly crenshaw professor of law at ucla and columbia. kimberly, i feel like i need to process what i just heard. >> i do, too. i do too. >> i don't know. it's very -- it's sort of a remarkable -- if there is a single small upside it's this niya thing was not standard practice. >> that's the only upside. first i have to say, congratulations and thank you to niya for actually standing up.
and telling the story. actually being a voice of reason in that moment. and we see the consequences of that is basically now she's in trouble, too. you know, it's so outrageous what happened that it's difficult for us to also focus on the fact that charges are still pending against both of these women. that's telling us something about what the consequence is of having police in schools, right? you know, there's that thing if you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. if you're a police officer, everything looks like a crime. if you're a vi leapt police officer, every moment of defiance as you define it is a justification for coesive force. we're talking serious coercion. >> yeah, i'd like your thoughts on that as a former police officer yourself. i've talked to a lot of cops over the last two years. a lot of them say look, sometimes you've got to put hands on someone. if doesn't seem to me like an appropriate use that have.
>> the absolutely not. what you saw on that vitio tape was a senseless and brutal assault on a 16-year-old girl that's unjustifiable under the circumstances. thank god for the awareness of the young lady who was just on and her classmates filming what happened so that we have an objective record of what took place. without those videotapes, this officer is not on administrative leave. the justice department is not involved and we're not where we are right now. importantly, those video cameras and those officers who are now out in the national discourse talking about a ferguson effect are really indicting the system itself because what they're saying in effect now that you all can create objective records of our behavior consistently as we execute our public responsibilities, we can't do it anymore. because we do so much dirt, we're afraid to work. >> let me ask you your response to the sheriff's comments today. i want to get your thoughts too, kimberly. >> reddit, the sheriff's comments after coming backing
from this conference that the president was speaking at today, particularly what he said when asked whether it was racial mentioning the personal life of the officer in question, what's your response? >> my response is this. i would qualify his statement and say that racily, my problem would be with the amount of times this happens in communities of color to children of color in schools that are predominantly african-american or hispanic and latino. he may be dating a black woman. i don't know. by i'll bet you he wouldn't have put his hands on a white 16-year-old girl the way that you saw him treat this young lady on that videotape. he slammed her forcefully to the ground and threw her across the room after he grabbed her around the throat. what's consistent is in the execution of their public duties, the disproportionate use of excessive force and unnecessary force against people who don't deserve it. >> yeah, and i just want to add to that that while this is taking place in schools, that will level of force, that kind
of brutality that we're seeing in this video actually happens outside of schools, as well. one of our recent reports say her name looks at black women who have been manhandled and basically killed by precisely that kind of force. tanisha anderson, cleveland, ohio, was killed days before tamir rice by police basically throwing her to the ground and getting on top of her or natasha mckenna was also killed by six white officers in hazmat uniforms with masks. actually went to extract her from a cell. she was nude when she came out she said, you promised you wouldn't kill me and they proceeded to body slam her and tasered her four times while she was handcuffed to a chair. so this kind of behavior towards black bodies we know about. but what we don't know the about is it happens to black women, as well. we actually think there's a gender and race component to that.
>> all right. redditt hudson and kimberly crenshaw, thank you both very much. appreciate it. still ahead, president obama addresses a conference of police chiefs pushing back on the ferguson effect. a look at whether there's data behind the alarmism. because donald trump loves trumpeting his poll numbers it until they start showing him second to ben carson. now they're "not very scientific." on the other hand, hillary shows a huge surge in polls after a strong week of campaigning. her team says the polls are wrong. we'll look at those numbers and more ahead.
we won't hold back from supporting capable partners in opportunistic attacks against isis or conducting such missions whether by strikes from the air or direction action on the ground. >> ashton carter on the hill today saying u.s. troops will be fighting isis on the ground. and apparent contradiction confident administration's insistence that u.s. troops are in iraq to advise and assist, mot to have a combat role. but an apparent confirmation of
what we already knew after commandos stormed a prison held by isis last week. an army master sergeant joshua wheeler became the first american killed in action in iraq since 2011. dying in combat even though according to the pentagon he did not have a combat role. >> he was killed in combat. that wasn't the intent of the obviously. he was accompanying those forces but when he saw that they were running into trouble, he very heroically acted in a way that all the reports suggest spelled the difference between the success and failure of that important mission.
and a third republican debate tomorrow night, ben carson will take center stage right next to donald trump who just fell out of the top spot in the national poll of republican voters for the first time since july. carson edges out trump 26-22% with the other candidates far behind. all that win's the margin of error. it comes after a string of polls showing carson expanding his lead in iowa where the caucuses kick off less than 100 days from now. campaigning in iowa today, donald trump pleaded with his supporters to improve his poll results. >> he when you get the numbers up, iowa, please? this is ridiculous. i mean, what is my competition? in all fairness, in all fairness, what is my competition? do you think these guys, i'm not going to say carson. i mean i am second. it's not like terrible. but i don't like being second. second is terrible to me. >> meanwhile, ben carson has
surged to the front of the pack while taking a break from the campaign for his book tour and while making policy statements from baffling to down right alarming. he suggested according to politico abolish medicare and he would use the department of education to monitor colleges for extreme political bias and deny them funding and as president, he says he would not sign any budget that ever raises the debt ceiling. today carson seemed to veer way off script signaling he would support pooling and redistributing taxpayer dollars to fund underserved schools. >> they're talking about the entire nation and we're talking about what makes us competitive in the world. and the great divide between the haves and the have nots is education. that's very different than redistributing funding because you feel that that's the social thing to do. >> now, that idea ending our national practice of funding schools primarily through local property taxes is actually a great one and has been around
for a while on the left. but it's so far outside the mainstream, bernie sanders doesn't even support it, which may it be why carson posted clarification to his facebook page, i do not support the national pooling of national tax receipts. if republican voters were warning carson, it's no wonder some of his opponent like john kasich are starting to snap. >> i've about had it with these people. let me tell you why. we've got one candidate an says we ought to abolish medicaid and medicare. have you ever heard of anything so crazy as that? one guy that says we ought to take 10 or 11 million people and pick them up, i don't know where we're going to go in their homes, their apartments. we're going to pick them up and take them to the border and scream at them to get out of our country?
that's just crazy. that is just crazy. what has happened to our party? what has happened to the conservative movement? >> joining me now republican media consultant rick wilson. rick, do you feel any sympathy for the plaintive way of john kasich? >> imagine the size of my tiny nine i nanoscale violin. john kasich is guy he who is like a guy who piss off the republican voters. that doesn't excuse the things that trump and carson are saying that are frankly way outside of the limited government conservative mainstream. i have a lot of the trouble building up a big well of sympathy for john kasich right now. >> here's why i wanted to have you on. at one point, a number of times you were on, you said look, people are going to come at him on policy, nail him down on stuff. and you know, he's going have to defend whether it's his love of eminent domain or all of his views outside of the republican base. he's been supplanted by someone
who has less policy chops as far as i can tell than he does, the one person in the race who seems to care even less about actually fleshing out a policy agenda. >> the very sort of zen nature of ben carson is sort of deceptive. the guy seems so calm and mindful and so quiet. and yet, there's a lot there that is frankly, i don't think people have had a good lard look at yet as a candidate and as a potential president. and this is a guy who has a lot of assets and a lot of high regard among republican primary voters but there's also a certain emerging unreadiness i think in terms of where he's at on having a developed set of limited government principles beyond a few things and he gets in deep water very quickly. he gets over his head quickly when you start drilling down on policy questions with him. >> here's why i think -- i would agree with that.
let me say. here's what i would say is my position if i'm say a big sort of gop donor class member. if i'm in the vaulted republican establishment. i'm psyched about carson's rise. in 2012, we got the chart of the primary leader that happened in that summer before the 2011 where everyone sort of gets a turn. those where is short cycles, four, six, eight weeks and eventually went into romney. carson's rise at the expense of trump makes me think hopefully if i'm a donor class establishment republican, the same thing's happening here just on a longer time scale. does that scan to you? >> somewhat but here's the thing. trump is still a powerful force right now and still holding a lot of the part of the base that is very activated by his message. the nativist message that's got a fraction of the base energized. the donor class can't sit back on the sidelines and say don't worry, this will work itself out. they still have to go out and put a bullet in donald trump.
that's a facts. they have to figure out ways to find candidates that are going to be of the caliber and the quality level to post up against hillary clinton because right now, i will tell you no matter who you support or how much you like them, neither donald trump or ben carson is ready 0 go up against the clinton machine. those guys are obviously not ready for primetime when the answers that they're giving are -- there are a dozen tv ads against ben carson. whether you love him or not in the statements he made just today that the clinton people are smart and quick and they will use against us. >> that is a key point. you will start hearing that more i think. rick wilson, thank you. >> thanks, chris. can you imagine a congressional committee more partisan are more destructive than benghazi select committee? we can. we will tell you all about it next.
>> in case we have forgotten because we keep hearing that 2014 has been the warmest year on record, i ask the chair, you know what this is? it's a snowball. and that's just from the outside here. so it's very, very cold out. very unseasonal. so mr. president, catch there. uh-huh. >> right. so the most famous climate change in congress, chairman jim inhofe is now thinking about taking his crusade to the upcoming climate talks in paris
attempting to block a binding agreement by being what he calls a "one-man truth squad. while he may be the public face after republican denialism, one of his colleagues in the house is waging something like guerrilla warfare on climate science. lamar smith, republican from texas, chairs the house committee on science, space and technology. a body that david roberts argues is even worse than the select committee on benghazi. because while the benghazi committee is at the very least investigating a real security failure that led to the death of four americans, congressman smith's committee is spend "ing its time hounding scientists advancing our understanding of climate change, a group he's never had much regard for. >> this is nothing new. they always make these kind of predictions and obviously, there are some people that want to use environmental regulations to try to control the economy or trying to control private property. but if you look at hair predictions in the past, the five ten, 15 years, most of the predictions have been wrong and anybody who's going to predict what's going to happen in the
year 2100 you know, 85 years from now, is not going to be correct. >> a lot of those predictions have in fact been right. in the previous session of congress, smith held more hearings on the search for extras terrestrial life than climate change. now he's taking a different approach using an the committee's subpoena power to harass scientists whose work he doesn't like. he subpoenaed records from the national oceanographic institute over a study that refuted claims of a pause in global warming. and now he's looking to investigate a climate research non-profit whose director signed a letter to the obama administration asking it to investigate fossil fuel companies that may have deceived the public about the risks of climate change. revealingly, he said the letter constitutes "the partisan political activity."
of pot meet kettle. it should surprise no one he raises a huge amount of campaign cash from the oil and gas industry. this is the new normal in our republican controlled congress was several must pass items on the agenda including a budget, the house science committee would rather use its time to bully scientists. there has been a small ray of light this week. kelly ayotte became the first senate republican to endorse the obama administration's kleen power plant which ames to reduce carbon emissions from power plants. ayotte we should note is facing a tough re-election battle against the state's popular democratic governor. as always, the best way to get a politician to care about an issue is to credibly threaten their job if they don't.
since per debate performance on the benghazi university, monmouth university finds her with a commanding 41-point lead over bernie sanders in iowa. while sanders is widely seen as running to the left of clinton, the -- clinton also holds a massive lead running 38 points ahead of sanders. but clinton communications director jennifer palmieri doesn't seem to be buying it. a few hours ago she tweeted out "the let the record show we don't just complain been public polls that are bad for us. these twos polls are great for us and crazy wrong." now the, some who study campaigns argue the best predictor of who is going to win a primary is not the polls at any given moment particularly this early on, it's endorsements where she has a clear-cut advantage. going into today, bernie sanders had a total of two endorsements. hillary clinton had the endorsement of ten democratic
governors, 120 house dems and 32 senate dems. today she picked up a 33rd senate endorsement, senator sherrod brown, a name that might seem surprising to some considering his voting record is very similar to bernie sanders. earlier tonight, senator brown gave his rationale for endorsing clinton to our chris matthews. >> i've had long conversations with secretary clinton. with her staff people and i have -- i'm pleased with what she's talking about. i'm very confident that we're going to see the kind of presidency that i think will make progressives proud. >> joining me now lynn vavreck, a political science professor at ucla, co-author of "the gamble." i hear political scientists talk about this thing called the invisible primary and they place predictive power on endorsements. why are those so important. >> one of the things to think about endorsements is the pace and the second thing is the share.
so we want to think of those things separately but both are important, chris. so the first is a signal that will pace of endorsements is a signal how sure are the party elites about who they want to coordinate around. and the share of endorsements tells us that they're picking the same person. both are important and you see different things in both parties right now. that's interesting. >> well, here's on today's endorsement, sherrod brown endorsing hillary clinton, some people found that surprising because you know, sherrod brown ideologically and voting records he was more similar to bernie sanders than hillary clinton. of course, there's a lot of criteria that go into this selection process of endorsements. what are they other than ideologically affinity? >> well, elites have a lot of reasons as you're suggesting ha they might want to jump on the bandwagon with one candidate or another. those range you know from wanting to be on the winning team to hoping to play a role either in the campaign or
perhaps in the administration. to just wanting to join the process and generate media coverage. we as political scientists don't know the a lot about the individual reasons that each different political elite might make those choices but what we're always talking to you guys about is sort of the average collective state of the endorsement pool. >> here's where it gets interesting. on the democratic side, a pretty clear front runner hillary clinton both in national polling and in the endorse"s. she's mopping up. on the republican side, it's very different. jeb bush is in the lead in endorsements. chris christie and mike huckabee and rand paul trailing him. none of those people are in the lead with the voters right now. it seems we've got an interesting fork in the road about the predictive models of endorsements or whether we're seeing something new that calls those endorsements into question. >> i like to think about this in terms of timing, as well. so when we talk about
endorsements being predictive, we really are talking about a period of time before the process starts tarts becoming a feedback loop. i would say a little bit now on the republican side, we've moved into the part where it's a bit of a feedback loop. the pace of endorsements has been slow. i would say for 2016, that's what we've learned from elite endorsements on the republican side. the party's having a hard time coordinating. from here forward, you want to be concerned about what you're suggesting. that public opinion is actually influencing what elites are doing too. >> i see what you're saying. we saw a bunch of endorsements. people thought these people are likely to have a strong are go at it. we're seeing a sort of trickle now as people wait on the sidelines waiting to see where things happen in terms of popular opinion and we'll sort of see this kind of elites jumping back in to kind of direct the process. a really interesting model as we think about who is doing the choosing. lynn vavreck, thank you so much. >> have police officers scaled back in the wake of black lives matter protests?
earlier this month, we reported on the controversial plan by the state of alabama which facing a budget squeeze decided to close local dmvs, the plays where people get drivers licenses and provide them with a form of id they need to vote thanks to the voter i.d. law. many of the offices that will close are in rural community, some predominant lit african-american. the plan would leave 28 counties entirely without an office. the state argues there are other ways for them to vote and offered a concession those offices would open at least once a month to serve residents. but there is good news for alabama residents today. the state is making sure at least one of their institutions remains accessible. state run liquor stores. it announced 15 liquor stores would close statewide, those in rural areas even the ones badly
losing money will stay open as the alabama beverage control administrator says it's hard to close the rural ones. they're losing more money but they have to drive further to get a bottle. apparently, the bottle is more important to the state lawmakers than the ballot. [ scanner beeping ] sir, could you step aside? "sir"? come on. you know who i am.
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you see murders up 19% in chicago, up 11% in new york and the murder of a police officer. the problem is this, there's lawlessness in this country. the president encourages this. he encourages it. >> how? >> by his own rhetoric. he does not support the police. he justifies black lives matter. >> among certain politicians and certain media outlets it's become an article of faith that the movement protesting police violence against african-americans has endangered the lives of mr. police officers and prompted them to scale back crime fighting efforts and leading to violence across the country. that claim that police facing
increased scrutiny have become less aggressive has become known as the ferguson effect and there are many criminologists and observers who are pushed back hard against the theory citing first and foremost a lack of necessary data to the draw that conclusion. it was more than a little surprising when the director of the fbi gave a speech in chicago friday where he said he basically buys the theory though he admits he lacks hard evidence to back it up. >> maybe something in policing has changed. in today's youtube world, are officers reluctant to get out of their cars and do the work that controls violent crime. are officers answering 911 calls but avoiding the informal contact that keeps bad guys from standing around especially with guns? and i don't know that that explains it entirely. but i do have a strong sense that some part of the explanation is a chill wind that has blown through law enforcement over the last year.
and that wind is surely changing behavior. >> asked about comey's comments yesterday, josh earnest seems to distance himself from those remarks. >> i will say that the available evidence at this point does not support the notion that law enforcement officers around the country are shying away from fulfilling their responsibilities. >> james comey is not the only prominent official alleging the effect is real. the mayor of chicago rahm emanuel is making a very similar case telling loretta lynch that "we have allowed our police department to get fetal and it is having a direct consequence. they don't want to be a news story themselves he was and don't want their career ended early and it's having an impact." >> i met with officers from the 10th district and one officer said when i'm driving by, i have to think whether i want to be on the news and what it means to my career. the recent events over the last year have had an impact. officers will tell you that. >> it is against the backdrop of this debate the international association of chiefs of police is holding their annual conference in chicago right now.
yesterday they heard from james comey who reiterated his support of this theory. today they heard from president obama. while he acknowledged the spike in crime this year in some cities, he stressed the importance of not cherry picking data to promote an agenda. >> the data shows that overall violent crime rates across the nation appear to be nearly as low as they were last year. and significantly lower than they were in previous decades. >> when we come back, i'll speak way former police officer who says the ferguson effect may be real and a criminologist who says not so fast. stay with us.
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for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, or any symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis for daily use and a free 30-tablet trial. joining me now to discuss crime and the so-called ferguson effect, peter moskos, associate professor john jay college, former baltimore police officer and the author of "cop in the hood," and richard rosenfeld, professor of criminal and criminal justice at the university of missouri st. louis and past president of the american society of criminology. peter you and i were having an exchange on twitter after james comey made these comments saying that i think that the prevalence of video cameras and the protests have changed police officer beaver in a way leading to more crime. defend that position. >> he raised the possibility of that. >> he said i don't have data. >> we need data. it was a nuanced and thoughtful
approach. if you listen to everything he said, he's an extremely thoughtful man. we've come a long way from j. edgar hoover. >> that's a low bar. >> but he's been saying wonderful things. to pick on that one might be true. >> lay out the case in -- let's focus on baltimore. that's the place where you think it's clearest. what is the theory of the case of how protests in the wake of freddie gray produced changes in police behavior that produces increases in crime. >> less the protests more the video cameras and baltimore bringing charges against six officers or in the worst case scenario, all six officers are probably not guilty. some of them get in trouble for it, get criminally prosecuted for it. it's a reasonable officer that would say screw it. one way we won't get in trouble is if we don't get out of our car. that has an impact on crime.
>> we don't get out of our car produces the conditions that allow -- >> it's about officers fearing that they are doing good police work and still might get in trouble for it. >> richard, you wrote about the sort of homicide increase you've seen in st. louis sort of going at the idea it's a result of the aftermath of ferguson protests. what do you make of this correlation? >> well, it's just that. it's a correlation but it's also a correlation based largely on anecdote and you know, very, very impressionistic evidence. my concern here and i agree completely with peter is that the conversation that we're having is impressively evidence-free. but we do have information available were it to be released that we could use to have a more sensible conversation. the uniform crime reports, the nation's official crime sticks from the police that come out of the fbi, they're released so late in the game.
ten months after the collection year, 22 months after the first month of the collection year. that they're worthless for dealing with emerging crime problems such as this one. and so we don't even know how extensive crime increases are in the united states. >> or if they're increasing. > what's that? >> or if it's increasing. part of what i have observed is that from the very first moment there has been a rush in some senses it seems to me to sort of find a crime increase empty wake of this as if there was a sort of a predestined expectation there would be one. >> right. that's quite possible. the president today made a remark i think was right on point. reporters have done due diligence in getting information out about crime increases in certain cities. but reporters are naturally drawn to places where there's news, i.e., where there's a
crime increase after a decline. and the fbi has information in hand that it could release that would inform this conversation. not only information on crime but also information on arrest rates. if the ferguson effect argument is true, we should be seeing arrest rates going down in cities where we see crime rates going up. for a time we saw that in baltimore. but we need hundreds of cities, not just the dozen or so that reporters have told us about in order to have a sensible conversation. >> peter, one of the things comey mentioned you talked about being filmed altering police behavior in some ways. i've got to say, the courts are pretty clear you can do that legally. it's constitutional to film the police. what if that ended up being the case, exercise of constitutional supervision affected behavior in such a way they didn't want to get out of their car. there's part of me that wants to say too bad. >> this is about moving the
debate forward. we have to talk about what we want police to do rather than slapping them every time we see something that looks ugly. sometimes it is bad behavior. other times it's not. police have is to use force. rarely does that look good on youtube. we're telling cops don't do this, don't do this and that. a lot of that is fair criticism. now we have to say what do we want you to do? this is what the fbi director raised. at some point policing is about getting out of your car and asking people on the corner what they're doing hanging out there. it's easier for the cop not to do that. we have to incentivize the job to engage the public in productive ways. >> i will also note as a final thought at the end of the day, we don't have a great sense of what causes crime to go up and to go down. it's one of the great sort of unsolved sociological mysteries. there are some indications in a variety of directions. thank you both gentlemen. >> thank you.
>> that is all in for this even. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> thank you. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. after the first republican presidential debate this year, you might remember that former texas governor rick perry quit running for president. >> i that is why is today i'm suspending my campaign for the presidency of the united states. >> rick perry was the first major candidate to quit the republican presidential race. that happened after the first republican debate. then after the second republican debate, it was wisconsin governor scott walker who quit the republican race for president. >> with this in mind, i will suspend my campaign immediately. >> so, so far after each of the republican debates we've had one of the major household name candidates for the republican presidential nomination quit the race. well, now, we're about to have the third debate tomorrow night.