tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC October 28, 2015 10:00pm-12:01am PDT
♪ when you're sitting at the ta...♪ what? you get it? i get the gist, yeah. geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. running against hillary. let's play "hardball." i'm chris matthews in the spin room at university of colorado in boulder where fight night lived up to its billing. ten republican candidates met for the third debate and john kasich took on donald trump. jeb bush went after his old palmer co rubio and ted cruz, marco rubio and donald trump all took on the mainstream media.
john kasich started tonight with this warning -- >> we are on the verge, perhaps, of picking someone who can no the do this job. >> well, donald trump took issue with his first question from moderator john harwood. >> is this a comic book version of a presidential campaign? >> no, that's not a comic book and it's not a nicely asked question the way you say that. >> well, the media seem to be the candidates' favorite target, the mainstream media, if you will. here's marco rubio getting cheers for going on the attack. >> the democrats have the ults super pac called the mainstream media. [ applause ] >> meanwhile, the audience booed the moderators for challenging ben carson too hard on questions about his relationship to a nutritional supplement company. >> it is absolutely absurd to say that i had any kind of a relationship with them. do i take the product? yes. i think it's a good product.
>> to be fair, you were on the home page of their website with the logo over their shoulder. >> if somebody put me on their home page they did it without my permission. >> does that not speak to your vetting process or judgment in any way? [ booing ] >> see, they know. >> okay. who landed the best blows tonight. who came out unscathed? chuck todd, steve schmitz and michael steele, the former chair of the republican national committee. let me go to chuck on this. i don't know. you tell me, who won? >> this is marco rubio's debate. pure and simple. he's got the viral moment that i want to have. he was put in the spotlight early. he was going to be on the defensive early. his main rival jeb bush decided
to go after him. he swung, he missed and rubio fired back hard. look, if marco rubio end up the republican nominee, we'll say it began with this debate. >> it started because of rubio's great absencee rate as united states senator. he was asked about a newspaper editorial that came out today that challenged his voting record in the senate. jeb bush jumped in on the criticism. let's watch. >> barack obama missed 60% or 70% of his votes and the same newspaper endorsed him again. so this is another example of the double standard that exists in this country between the mainstream media and the conservatives. >> i'm a constituent of the senator and i helped him and i expected that he would do constituent service, which means that he shows up to work. he got endorsed by the "sun sentinel" because he was the most talented guy in the field. he's a gifted politician.
but marco, when you signed up for this. this was a six-year term. and you should be showing up to work. literally, the senate, what is it? like a french work week. you get three days where you have to show up. you can campaign. or just resign and let someone else take the job. >> jeb said you're modeling your campaign after john mccain. you're going to launch a furious comeback the way he did, by fighting hard in new hampshire and places like that, carrying your own bag in the airport. you know how many votes john mccain missed? >> he wasn't my senator. >> i don't remember you complaining about john mccain's voting record. the only reason you're doing it now because we're running for the same position and someone convinced you attacking me is going to help me. >> it's a classic. let the other guys jump you and look like it's a gang attack and then come back. lawrence o'donnell, a classic maneuver by mr. rubio. >> yeah. and i agree with chuck, that was a moment where we had the first look at what is turning out to be the winner of this debate. that is a winning moment.
i think we have a second and third place so far, too, for ted cruz and chris christie. for chris christie, though, it's academic. but cruz lit up that stage with the first really powerful attack on the moderators, which has been the most successful debate tactic used by anybody up there on the stage. and based on expectation, based on what everyone said he needed to do, it seems we do have a loser tonight. it seems jeb bush is losing this debate based on what everyone was saying he needed to do to impress his campaign investors and to push up his poll numbers. >> you know, michael, i don't think he liked going after his buddy rubio. there was no joy -- >> he was hesitant in it, and i think rubio ducked and came back with a left hook and took him down. and i think what you saw rubio do tonight was create a lane for himself. the others now are going to have to catch him. i think he's sort of launched
his effort to move into the frontier of this race. jeb bush is losing ground quick. and it's unfortunate to say for him, but he did not do what he needed to do tonight. he was hesitant. he was not sure footed in terms of his attack and he came off week. >> it seems like the "sun sentinel" was the local paper. this is where i think jeb bush missed an opportunity. of course they're going to go for after the local guy. they endorsed him. why would the "sun sentinel" go after john kerry or john mccain. why didn't he see that? why didn't jeb see that? >> it's also the wrong thing to hit him for. the issue in "the washington post" story was marco rubio saying he's so frustrated with being a senator that he can't wait to get out, can't wait to leave. the question to marco rubio should be okay, being president, you're going to have some frustration. you're just getting up and walking away. how come you're not staying to reform the place? what are you doing to fix it? what are you doing to get it done?
that's the way it would have been an iskt ef way. what he did was he fell into the rabbit hole of missed votes and that frankly works in house and senate races. >> he didn't seem to show political sophistication. the newspaper did the hard work for him. he thought he could just me-to it. and rubio was totally -- you know that todd harris' media guy has worked on this with his candidate. you know rubio was totally ready and attacked from the defense i position, is there you go again. it always seems to work. >> in presidential debates, knockouts come on the counterpunch. marco rubio knocked jeb bush out tonight. flat on his butt. worse day of the campaign. for jeb bush since his announcement, was tonight. the devastating moment. it showed a political tone deafness, because the crowd had erupted into cheers with rubio's defense. and even after the cheering, jeb
bush leaned right in with his chin to marco rubio, who was clearly prepared for it. and so you had now in this debate the first direct combat between bush, between rubio. we knew it was coming. we'd known it was coming for months. we know they've faced off against each other in florida. only one comes out of that state. you saw that moment tonight in marco rubio, the clear winner. >> lawrence, i get the feeling listening to the debates and the cheer, it was not even. they damn well know what this election is about. it's looking good in a debate for the presidency. and it all has to look together. the counterpunch, the successful execution, the timing, and the audience approval. and i thought that rubio's people were ready to jump and they jumped. >> well, you know, i'm not so sure it's rubio's people. it's an audience that, as you say, wants to see -- they were
cheering for chris christie. i'm not sure there's a lot of chris christie people in that audience. they wanted to see a certain kind of energy. they wanted to see an attack on the media. they loved that. but what was also fast nating ultimately, i can't wait to see the minutes of this, but the disappearance of the front-runner, donald trump and ben carson. it's amazing that somebody like christie, ted cruz, could play significant roles in this debate, have very significant moments in this debate while their front-runners were standing idly by. >> trump looked like a mannequin up there. senator cruz got some of the biggest cheers of the night, as you say, lawrence, take on the mainstream media. let's watch. >> the questionings that have been asked so far in this debate illustrate why the american people don't trust the media. this is not a cage match. and you look at the questions,
donald trump, are you a comic book villain, ben carson, can you do math? marco rubio, why don't you resign? jeb bush, why have your numbers fallen? how about talking about the substantive issue people care about. >> i just want the record to reflect i asked you about the debt limit and i got no answer. >> i'm happy to answer that question. but let me tell you how the question is -- >> moving on. >> let me tell you -- >> senator paul, i have a question for you. >> you don't want to hear the answer? >> you used yo you are time on somethings pep. >> that was brilliant. he reiterated every one of the question that was raised in order showing them to be wrong as they saw it. he was really alert in keeping notes. >> ted cruz had a big night tonight. when you look at this race, you see ben carson's numbers. ben carson is going to go down, ted cruz is going to go up. they're going to swap votes
between the two of them as we get deepner this campaign. you saw ted cruz, all the political talent on full display tonight. very, very strong performance from him. very, very strong performance from christie as well. >> 50% of the republican party were what i would call in the renegade category. very much against the establishment. dr. carson and donald trump. do you get the feeling that cruz grabbed the majority of that tonight? >> i think he's the safe spot to go to. we danced on the wild side with trump and carson. now we begin to settle this thing, as we get closer and closer to december and january, cruz becomes a safe harbor for a lot of republicans who already like him. >> let's take a look at this, john kasich attacked donald trump, however, and donald trump hit him back hard. hard. let's watch. >> folks, we have to wake up. you can't pick somebody who can't do the job.
you have to pick someone with experience and discipline. >> then trump came back and said weren't you at lehman brothers. >> kasich and jeb, right? kasich and bush for the last 48 hours, both vented the establishment's frustrations with how this campaign has gone. m in their own different ways. bush did it on that saturday, i've got a lot of other things to be doing. and kasich yesterday. and they both tried to bring that to this debate tonight and they both got whacked. >> didn't they deliver their sunday punch a day before? >> that's exactly what they did. and they both got whacked. we talked about trump. yes, he disappeared at times, but i could make a case that of the three debates, this was trump's best debate. he's not been good at these debates. he was down right awful. >> where was he good tonight? putting away kasich. >> intimidating.
i think he's a factual disaster on his hands when he just full fledged denial and bullied becky quick in that initial answer where he was just flat-out lying. either that or he didn't read his own plan. but he owned the moment. as a performer, he was better tonight than he'd been the first two nights. i think trump is going to pay a big price for this down the road for literally not knowing what was on his own website in that thing. but as a performer, stylistically. >> you look at the trump base, blue collar, economically down scale, noncollege educated. these are the americans who lost their homes in the great recession. this is a huge psychic event, the collapse of the economy in 2008-2009. him going after john kasich on lehman brothers was devastating to john kasich.
>> let's talk about strategy here tonight. i want lawrence to pick up on this first of all. ted cruz, first of all tonight, i've been told, is heading towards trying to aggregate the entire right wing. he wants evangelicals, tea party and libertarians. tonight, almost systematically, look what he did. he wants to audit the fed, he wants to replace rand paul as the champion of the libertarians. he wants to get rid of the irs, the champion of the tea parties. he did seem to be checking off his list to try to aggregate. i think cruz is really moving in on trump. trump was so good on anti-immigration that he will probably hold on to 20 points maybe. or maybe not. i think cruz is going to join them really soon. >> the tea party now clearly has a candidate. it's ted cruz. there's no doubt about it. and he definitely solidified that. look, the win tonight went to the people with the best debating skills. it's a pretty old fashioned way to get to an outcome here.
marco rubio showed much better debating skills tonight than he ever has before. ted cruz, we knew had the skills but he never really had the time and he never had the moments in previous debates to show it off. chris christie we knew had debating skills and he got a couple of those moments tonight. it's not complicated where this went. i think one of the biggest problems for trump is, the trump campaign and the republican campaign has been all about trump. meaning it's all about a star. this campaign has a star, donald trump. he was not the star of this debate tonight. and in the world in which donald trump cannot hold on to that candidate stardom, i'm not sure he can continue to support his poll numbers. >> i don't think hispanics looked like rapists tonight, they looked like great debaters, which is astounding when you look at trump. michael, steve and lawrence are sticking with me. and coming up, senator rand paul is going to join us here, fresh off the debate stage.
this is "hardball" a place for politics live in the spin room from boulder, colorado, in the republican presidential debate. >> i don't see a lot of weakness on the stage, quite frankly. i see weakness on the three people left on the democratic stage. i see a socialist, an isolationist and a pessimist. and for the sake of me, i can't figure out which one is which. ♪ the way i see it, you have two choices;
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don't miss mattress price wars at sleep train. ♪ sleep train ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ >> we're back live right now at the spin room at the university of colorado, to site of tonight's republican presidential debate. ohio governor john kasich went after both front-runner, trump and carson tonight. and trump hit him back. let's watch. >> we're just going to have a 10% tithe and that's how we're going to fund the government? and we're going to fix everything with waste fraud and abuse? or we're just going to be great or we're going to ship ten million americans, or ten
million people out of this country, leaving their children here in this country and dividing families? folks, we got to wake up. we cannot elect somebody that doesn't know how to do the job. you've got to pick somebody who has experience. >> john got lucky with a thing called fracking, okay? he hit oil. he got lucky with fracking, believe me. that's why ohio is doing well. and that's important for you to know. number two, this is the man that was a managing general partner at lehman brothers when it went down the tubes and almost took every one of us with us including ben and myself. because i was there and i watched what happened and lehman brothers started it all. he was on the board and he was a managing general partner. >> okay. >> and just thirdly, he was so nice. he was such a nice guy. and he said oh, i'm never going to attack. but then his poll numbers tanked. that's why he's on the end. and he got nasty. he got nasty. so you know what? you can have him.
>> i'm back with the host of "mad money." jim cramer. and lawrence o'donnell, the host on msnbc. the media was at ground zero in the target zone. i never heard so many shots at the media. >> yes. i mean, they're running for president, they're running against everyone. they're running against the media -- >> mainstream media. >> a bit of a mean spirit to it. if they all hate the government so much, why do they want to work for the government? the government was on trial. the media was on trial. i think the economy should be on trial. we stick with that and it would have been a little more whole -- holistically a way to deal with things. >> becky quick during an exchange over immigration and visas.
let's watch that. >> mark zuckerberg of facebook wanted to increase the number of -- >> i was not at all critical of him. i was not at all critical of him. >> where did i read this and come up with this? >> probably -- i don't know, you people write this stuff. i don't know. >> you had talked a little bit about marco rubio. i think you called him mark zuckerberg's personal senator because he was in favor of the -- >> i never said that. >> here's where becky quick got that information. it's from trump's own issues page. trump writes, quote, mark zuckerberg's personal senator, marco rubio has built hb-1 cs. >> the thunder clap was you people write this stuff. >> of the way you deflect tough questions is to attack the
homework, which was extraordinarily good, chris. i worked for becky for years. i thought she came right back and had the goods and yet somehow i'm meaning -- in a charged environment, the goods don't matter as much as they should. >> lawrence, this i'm not going to defend anybody against anything generally, but in a situation like this, those moderators were in no position to shoot back. it all came from one direction and they had to sit there like professionals and take it. anybody who thought it took balls to do what they did tonight is wrong. it's easy to hit people sitting there doing their jobs who have no way to shoot back with the same kind of venom or personality, let's put it that way, that could be directed against them sitting there. >> newt gingrich showed you can attack the media last time around. nothing gets you a bigger cheer than doing that.
and trump was refuting that was right there on his website. and he did use that phrase, calling marco rubio mark zuckerberg's personal senator. it was all there. there's another moment that becky quick had that i thought was really, really important. going one-on-one with carly fiorina over her performance at hewlett-packard. it seemed to me that really was the last word on carly fiorina at hewlett-packard. becky quick just, i think, wiped out hewlett-packard as any conceivable, relevant experience, positive experience for someone to become president of the united states. >> here's christie getting in a final jab at the media. let's watch. >> we have a government -- >> involved in fantasy football? wait a second. we have $19 trillion in debt. we have people out of work, we have isis and al qaeda attacking us and we're talking about
fantasy football? will you stop? please stop. >> okay, steve. fire away. >> well, he couldn't be more right about that. >> but it was right at the end of a two-hour debate. >> it was right at the end of a two-hour debate, but the crowd loved it, ate it up. he's fundamentally right. when you look at the problems the country is facing, when you look at the channels globally, we're talking about fantasy football here. so chris christie, i think you saw today for the first time in the campaign, you saw chris christie's star power unleashed. you saw why chris christie became a national phenomenal. i think chris christie did a lot of good tonight. i think that before this is over, chris christie is going to get a hard second look by a lot of these republican primary voters, probably in the state of new hampshire. >> are you telling me that chris christie has a problem with free media? this guy's entire career was built up on the fact that he gave the hard shoulder to a call-in radio host named gail when he said none of your
business, gail. he knows how to play the media as good as anybody. >> when you hang the fastball over the middle of the plate, a guy like chris christie is putting it out into the bleacher evers time. and he took his swing of the bat. he put it in the bleachers. >> he's probably mad at us anyway generally. >> i think a key part is true for christie. the reality that he's now facing, remember, his star power diminished when trump got in the race. he was the guy who was outside the box. as trump's power and influence diminishes -- >> he became mr. conehead. that was his problem. the cones were put out there on the bridge and he said i wasn't the guy who put the cones out there. >> i don't think that's been so much of a factor as a lot of people want to make it out to be. i think a lot of presidential momentum he had was dissipated by donald trump early on. and now tonight, i think he found a way to get some of that back. >> one of the most memorable lines in this debate with regard to the attacks on the media, he
says the mainstream media celebrates hillary clinton's performance at the benghazi hearing, this is the great week of her campaign, but, in fact, communicating to that republican audience, what we learned out of that hearing is that she communicated to her family that week what this was and then communicated something very, very different to the families of those murdered americans, and to the country as a whole. and marco rubio hit a home run for that tonight for republicans out across this country who will be voting in the early primary states. it won't resonate with the national media, certainly won't resonate with democrat, but it will resonate with republican voters in to a rather profound way. >> let me ask you the need of the challenge of getting business news into a presidential debate. that was the challenge. it was an attempt at force feeding. let's talk serious macroeconomics they all found a way to do it. >> dr. carson -- he's a doctor, right?
the biggest issue right now in medicine is that prices keep going up for drugs. we can't afford the hep-c pill. that cures people lives and bankrupts the nation. why isn't it fair game? the answer is, that's not what i'm here to talk about. well, that's a fundamental issue right now. medicare is on the line. it will be bankrupted by these great new drugs. but we want the drug companies to spend money and develop this. these are legitimate questions that should be asked by people who are running for president. they have to solve those issues. and they didn't want to talk about that kind of stuff. >> i need medicine, i use them. i'm diabetic. i feel for the people who don't have a good health care program. it's unbelievable the out of pocket cost people like me have to pay. and the person out there who doesn't have the greatest income, i don't know how you handle it. >> you can't. that's why you have to ask. the medicare bargain question is a totally legitimate question when the drugs cost $85,000. >> i got to show you one thing, when the advisers are back there
with the candidates before the debate prepping for it. rule one, don't get into a macroeconomic debate with jim cramer. you know that by now. >> you know what i think, the greatest question that i would have asked, everybody has their own favorite questions. if we have another recession, having overused monetary policy to the point we have no interest rates right now, having used fiscal policy, huge deficits, what do we do next time? what's left in our tool kit? what have you got in your tool kit mr. trump? >> the answer would be chris matthews, we won't have another recession, we're going to have double digit economic growth when i'm president. they wouldn't go near it. they will just tell you it won't happen. we're just going to have growth. >> another shower of bs. anyway, thank you, jim cramer and thank you lawrence for warning me about what we're up against. much more coming up tonight here on msnbc from boulder, including the candidates themselves coming here. this is "hardball" the place for politics live from the third -- can you believe it -- republican
presidential debate. >> the democrats have the ultimate super pac. i it's called the mainstream media. >> last week, hillary clinton went before a committee and admitted she sent e-mails to her family saying this attack was caused by al qaeda-like elements. she spent over a week telling the family of those victims and the american people that it was because of a video. and yet the mainstream media saying it was the greatest week in hillary clinton's campaign. it was the week she got exposed as a liar. ive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪
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>> it is the height of hypocrisy to talk about being the first woman president when every single policy she espouses and every single policy of president obama has been demonstrably bad for women. >> we're at university of colorado, the site of tonight's republican debate. ewe've shown you the biggest highlights of tonight. what's front age headlines from tomorrow night's newspapers? and what didn't we see tonight and where do the candidates go from here? i'm joined now by flee of the best jury roomists in the business andrea mitchell, bob costas and josh green.
let's listen now to donald trump live right now in the building. >> what's next for you after this? >> we have another one in two weeks. and i know one thing, we'll have big crowds. have a good time. a.j., how many people are here if i don't do it? >> you do bring everybody out as far as watching the debate and bring up issues that many other candidates don't bring up. >> i bring up the right issues and i think it's one of the reasons why i'm number one in the polls. because i bring up people issues want to hear, whether it's illegal immigration or whether it's trade. a lot of issues that people don't want to talk about and they're very important. >> snl next weekend. are you ready? >> saturday night live, i'm ready. it's going to be a big fat surprise. >> the candidates really went after the moderators tonight. there have been a lot of personal attacks during this campaign. the campaigners have given the moderators a lot to work with.
do you think it's part on you all? >> if you look at the hillary debate, that was all softballs. and our debate was much tougher. i loved it, i had a great time. but it was a much different debate than the democrats. >> you're giving them red meat to work with. >> i loved it, but it's certainly a lot different than what hillary got. >> do you think anyone will say you faded tonight? >> there's no fade. that's for sure. >> it seems like a lot of people delivered their punches ahead of time. jeb bush was going to get rubio and a couple of things were clear ahead of time. one of the things was donald trump was going to blame the media. he said it was going to be an unfair debate before he got in here today. now he's doing a nice little tour deforce as he goes through the room there, shouting everybody telling them we're the bad guys. you talk about the effectiveness of such a move? >> i think it's effective in a republican primary.
we've seen this before. eight years ago there was a debate with a live audience where they went after the moderator. it wasn't just trump. it was others. i think the missed opportunity was jeb bush. this was his moment to stand up to show the donors who have big doubts about him. >> he said his chief rival mark coy rubio should stop taking free paychecks and he tried to jump on and double down and it killed him. >> you don't telegraph your attacks. you don't tip your pitches in baseball, you don't telegraph your attacks in politics. he walked right into a trap. rub you knew it was coming, prepared for it. had crisp answers. and trump shut jeb down and it backfired. >> just as trump was totally ready for john kasich. why do these guys announce to the press the day before what they're going to do. >> the rubio-bush exchange was def tate stating. the other big moment, trump and kasich. the opening exchange. he drew kasich out, got kasich
to get nailed on lehman brothers and he had him proud to say i'm proud of being a banker. and he was trying to be the truth teller to rise in new hampshire and trump took him out. it's going to be tough right now for kasich coming out of this debate. where's the path for kasich? >> we have another live report there. go ahead, john kasich. >> governor what did you think of governor bush's performance tonight? did he do what he need to do? >> i didn't even -- i don't pay any attention, really. that's for you to decide. >> there's one thing people talk about, you're part of the establishment. >> i've never been part of the establishment. i know how to get things done and work with the establishment to achieve things, but i've been a reformer all of my life. how do you balance the federal budget? it was like the folks on the stage didn't even recognize we had once done it. how do you go into ohio and take a $8 billion hole and turn it into a surplus if you're not a
reformer. i know how to do these things and i know how to land the airplane. we'll be fine. thanks. >> nobody figured they got their job done in two hours. there's donald trump. he wantedless time and here he is trying to get the dessert here. >> i think ted cruz had a hell of a night. not only beating up on the media, defending the other candidates, but really playing to a tea party base. he was strong. you know, he is not a popular character among his colleagues, republican and democrat. he looked like he was stealing rand paul's pocketbook. what did he have left? >> he had a great night. i think marco rubio had a big night. i think ben carson filled in some details and showed that he had prepared for this debate as he had not for others. >> here's some economic policy
for you. ted cruz wants to bring back the gold standard. jack kemp, big night for him. let's watch this. >> on wall street, the fed is doing great. it's driving up stock prices, wall street is doing great. you know, today, the top 1% earn a higher share of our income than any year since 1928. if you look at working men and women, if you look at a single mom buying groceries, she sees hamburger prices have gone up nearly 40%. she sees her cost of electricity going up and loose money is one of the major problems. we need sound money. and i think the fed should get out to the of the business of trying to juice our economy and simply focused on sound money and monetary stability. ideally tied to gold. >> josh, very economic. he went through all the various eroj nous zones of the right. the concern about the irs, saying it's not going to be an irs because you don't need the paper work.
number two, there's not going to be a fed because we're going to audit it to death. >> there are two big overall problems with that answer. if you're the mom trying to buy hamburger, going back to the gold standard is not going to solve your problem. >> he said it would. >> it's not. and the second problem is, this is supposed to be a debate on jobs and the economy. if you're a businessman, an economic leader, a banker or whatever, what did you learn tonight? you learned that everybody is angry, you learned that donald trufrm carries a gun, jeb bush ask leading his fantasy sports league and ted cruz wants to go back to the gold standard. >> the best line was ben carson who said look, the government overregulates. that's something mainstream business people can get behind. the rest of the stuff is going to make people look at hillary clinton.
>> i still can't figure out why jeb bush spoke about fantasy football. thank you, andrea. still ahead, i spoke with the candidates just off the debate stage tonight including rand paul. you're watching us live from university of colorado boulder. brain food, hmmm. ensure has b vitamins that help support brain health - now that's smart nutrition. ensure's complete balanced nutrition has 26 vitamins and minerals and 9 grams of protein. ensure. take life in. better things than for rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist move to a biologic, ask if xeljanz is right for you. xeljanz is a small pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz can reduce joint pain and swelling in as little as two weeks,
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money. i will begin tomorrow to vote against it and i ask everyone to call congress and say enough is enough. no more debt. >> we're back from the spin room. we're in the spin right now. that was rand paul in night's republican presidential debate promising to stop the bipartisan budget bill that passed the house today. senator, it looks to me like you put all these pieces together, more money on defense, more money on domestic. some moving around, tricky stuff with entitlements, that seems like the way the government has operated for about 100 years now. >> i tell people all the time, it's the unholy alliance that's bankrupting our country. republicans say it's democrats. democrats say it's republicans. it's both parties bankrupting the country. the right wants more money for the mill taur. the left wants more money for domestic. we don't have any of that money so they're willing to borrow it. the extraordinary thing about raising the debt kreeling is
they're going to raise it without any limits. this is extraordinary. usually we say we're going to raise it $500 billion. we're raising whatever is spent between now and march 2017. this is irresponsible. that is something that -- i don't really want to be part of a government that's not going to have any rules about what we spend. >> the republican party that believed what you just said goes back 20 or 30 years. we had people like jerry ford, bob dole who really were fiscal hawks. what happened today? >> there were very few fiscal conserves. the one line i didn't get out tonight is that i'm the only fiscal conservative on the stanl because i'm willing to see spending cut across the board, or at least hold the line across the board for military and for domestic spending. because i think the country is weaker when we borrow a million dollars a minute. >> can we have a postcard tax system that's so simple you could fill out a postcard and everybody goes home? >> that's what my tax plan is. one rate, 14.5% for everybody.
>> postcard, no paper work. check a couple of numbers. >> mine is different than most of the republicans that i get rid of the payroll tax also. so most of the problem politically in passing a flat tax is democrats say, well, what does it do for people? poor people say i don't want to vote for it, it's for rich people. but in my flat tax, you get rid of the payroll tax so the working class will get a significant tax cut with my plan. >> what did you think of cruz today. everybody knows your libertarians. you've been skeptical about the role of fiscal conservatives. he wants to eliminate the irs then he says he wants to do the gold standard. it sounds like you, the paul father and son team. >> on economic issues we have similarities. but on whether or not we're fiscal conservatives, he's unwilling to look at defense spending. we's within of those who will vote for increasing defense spending by $200 billion without any offsetting cuts.
i won't do that because i think that's fiscally irresponsible. i'm the only real fiscal conservative because i'm willing to look at spending across the board. >> it seems like this -- i can only imagine being a candidate and trying to keep control of even the intellectual reality of this campaign. because what it seems to me is a battle of who can be the furthest removed from government functioning, the furthest removed from the details and the requirements of the government. if you are a preacher, a neurosurgeon or you a tycoon in manhattan. you can find yourself a lot of distance from anything to do with government. you look attractive. you've been a u.s. senator. your father was a congressman for years. that seems to be a problem with your party. >> one of the ways we get to sort of intellectual truth or an intellectual debate what's the best way to run the country or the best direction is you have to run through hours and hours and hours to get little snipets of truth.
same way with the debate. the debate a lot of times doesn't bring much forward. but there will be snipets of truth that will help people make a decision. that's why we also need to continue to have debates. >> you think tonight was useful? >> some of it, yeah. >> did you like the attacks on the media tonight? >> i felt some of the questions, like asking whether donald trump was moral enough to be president, i thought that was a gotcha. >> later on tonight, i watch you guys attack the media for being a bunch of left wing jackals. >> you guys are easy. >> it can't all be true. >> you're an easy target sometimes. >> senator rand paul, much more from the spin room coming up ahead including john kasich who went after front-runners donald trump and ben carson tonight. this is "hardball" the place for politics. live from the republican presidential debate in colorado.
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lehman brothers. >> that lehman brother, if i had bankrupted lehman brothers from a two-man office in ohio, i should be pope, not president. tonight was a chance for me to talk about the end of fantasy. we're going to get rid of medicare and medicaid and replace it with some tax credit or something? or we're going to deport 10 million or 11 million americans and breakup families? or we've got these tax schemes. i've always been a tax cutter, but a tax scheme that's going to cost us trillions. >> dr. carson has got the tithing plan. jewish law, paying to the temple. >> look, i have a tax cut plan, i have a balanced budget plan. i did it in d.c., as you know, when i was chairman of the budget committee. i turned ohio around with a great team of people. i didn't do it alone. i can go back and take a team and fix a country.
>> i don't know any republicans who -- my dad was a republican, loved the party's philosophy, but when he turned 65, he also loved medicare. who are the republicans who want to get rid of medical coverage for themselves after they retire? >> i don't understand it. that's why i've been saying these things. and you might notice that i also talked about medicaid where we took the growth from 10% to 2.5% without taking one person off the rolls or cutting any benefits. we modernized the program. we can do the same kinds of things in medicare we've done in medicaid and stabilize the program. >> what about the 11 million? do you believe your constituents want to get rid of the 11 million people here who came here illegally? >> you know they' ear not going to be departed. how would you even do it? >> you or someone said you can't separate them from their kids. it would be heldacious to watch, like that kid being pulled out of his chair at school.
>> how did we get there? i don't know. >> that political party you've done well in is buying all these wild plans. >> i'm not sure that they are. we'll see. i'm going to be traveling a lot in the next few days. and i don't think that i'm going to get anything other than people saying thank goodness somebody stood up and begin saying what's real and what's not? look, if they don't, i've got to serve my country. i can't let somebody be elected president who i think can't do the job. >> what do you do when you see a wild four-corner pander and somebody says i'm getting rid of the irs. i'm getting rid of the irs. i'm going to audit the federal reserve. these are lines aimed directly at the audience. >> they want to turn the fed over to congress. are you kidding me? let congress print the money? >> clearly it was a smart move to keep it independent. but i'm just wondering what you think when the fantasy -- they talked fantasy football tonight. when is fantasy politics going
to end and people say we've got a november date with hillary clinton and she's going to be tough. >> she will be tough but she can be defeated. i think, chris, the problem with hillary, she's brittle. she doesn't exude any warmth. it's just sort of boring and it's a measuring of which group likes me and which group doesn't. the democrats worry about me more as a nominee than anyone else in the party. >> but they also like you better, which should worry you. you can appeal to the mid. >> the fact is we want everybody to rise. i'm a conservative. we cut tax, we balanced budget, we tame regulations, but you know, we also want people who live in the shadows to have an opportunity and a life. that's like reagan. >> will hillary carry ohio if you're not the nominee? >> i wouldn't say that. we'll have to see who the nominee is, but it has to be someone who's a uniter. >> who is that besides you? >> i'll let you decide. that's why you make all the money.
>> everybody else is attacking the media. one minute more? okay, let's talk about tonight. you took on trump. you targeted him. >> i really didn't. i talked about all these programs, whether it's -- >> the moderators tried to get you to name names and you wouldn't. but you're talking about 1 1 million and the bhoon wants to get rid of medicare, that's carson. >> that's some of them. >> why didn't you call them by name? >> i wanted to be polite. >> really? >> i've got to leave a little mystery out there for you guys to figure out. >> it's great to have you on. governor kasich, a real executive from a real state. by the way, decides most of these elections. anyway, ohio, it's 11:00 p.m. in the east right now and 9:00 p.m. here in colorado where the republican candidates wrapped up their third debate in the past hour. the focus was the economy. but the biggest target was the media. look, and if they don't, i got to serve my country.
i can't let somebody be elected president who i think can't do the job. conservative media. >> to a lot of people in the media, this is just a great big game and we're the players. that he shows up to work. he got endorsed by the "sun sentinel" because he was the most talented guy in the field. he's a gifted politician. but marco, when you signed up for this. this was a six-year term. and you should be showing up to work. literally, the senate, what is it? like a french work week. you get three days where you have to show up. you can campaign. or just resign and let someone else take the job. >> jeb said you're modeling your campaign after john mccain. you're going to launch a furious comeback the way he did, by fighting hard in new hampshire
and places like that, carrying your own bag in the airport. you know how many votes john mccain missed? >> he wasn't my senator. >> i don't remember you complaining about john mccain's voting record. the only reason you're doing it now because we're running for the same position and someone convinced you attacking me is going to help me. ohio governor john kasich went after both front-runner, trump and carson tonight. and trump hit him back. let's watch. >> we're just going to have a 10% tithe and that's how we're going to fund the government? and we're going to fix everything with waste fraud and abuse? or we're just going to be great or we're going to ship ten million americans, or ten million people out of this country, leaving their children here in this country and dividing families? folks, we got to wake up. we cannot elect somebody that doesn't know how to do the job. you've got to pick somebody who has experience. >> john got lucky with a thing called fracking, okay? he hit oil. he got lucky with fracking,
believe me. that's why ohio is doing well. and that's important for you to know. number two, this is the man that was a managing general partner at lehman brothers when it went down the tubes and almost took every one of us with us including ben and myself. because i was there and i watched what happened and lehman brothers started it all. washington establishment. it applies to the media as well. he was such a nice guy. and he said oh, i'm never going to attack. but then his poll numbers tanked. that's why he's on the end. and he got nasty. he got nasty. so you know what? you can have him. >> boy, like the roman coliseum in moments like that. i'm joined by chuck todd, moderator of "meet the press," michael steele, the former rnc chair, and steve schmidt, the former senior strategist in john mccain's campaign. let's go over that interesting fact. we talked earlier tonight. it seems like the candidates for
whatever reason telegraphed their punches. why do they go in and say i'm going to get trump tomorrow, i'm going to get carson tomorrow? why do they do that and then go in there and have their punch stop there? >> i think if you're john kasich, i get it. everybody is talking it about trump, carson, bush, rubio. nobody was talking about john kasich. so i have to get it in kasich, i get it with christie and paul. both of them telegraphed hits on each other. stuff like this. probably the one that's the head scratcher is jeb telegraphing it a little bit because he's a main guy. he didn't need to do that. look, like i said, i det it for kasich. he wanted in the conversation. >> michael, i thought -- go ahead. >> you're working the reps. >> they're working all the time, but the other thing is you get prepped in such a way to do that. and to have that line. and you're always in your head looking for that moment to say it. and i just remember whether it was a debate when i was running
for the senate. >> you have been there. >> you get it in your head and you're waiting for that moment. just say it, just say it. >> set up carson. >> you're still debating. >> did jeb take something off his smack at rubio when he said the french work week? i think he was trying to put a little too much icing on that. i'm mixing my metaphors. he didn't need to say french work week. this anti-french nonsense. >> keep it it simple. >> you know who was good at doing that, carly fiorina in the second debate, where she didn't have to say -- she said, everyone in america knows what you meant by that, donald trump. boom. >> that was a great line. but i also thought tonight, she was talking about i don't smile enough, so she smiled. of course, when becky quick was going after her, she wasn't smiling one bit. >> we have this election right now where we're seeing the power of authenticity, particularly with these outsider candidates. you look specifically at the jeb attack on marco rubio.
it was rehearsed. it was deliberate. it was premeditated. it was almost like a quarterback dropping back in the pocket, scanning for the open receiver. throw it, throw it, don't throw it. i have an open man. i'm going to throw the ball. he leaned in there with his chin, and marco rubio, real effective counterpunch, knocked him out. >> like when you plan a trick play on the first play of the game. how often do you see them try it and it ends up with a ten-yard loss. >> let's take one minute on jeb bush. the family had two presidencies. mixed results in both cases. one had one term, one had two. >> if you win, you win. if you get in the hall of fame of politics if you win the presidency. >> okay, mr. moderator. on hardball, we look at it somewhat differently. i just don't think he's got it in him. is that too strong a statement? he doesn't look happy. he doesn't look like a fighter. >> we talked about this earlier. resiliency.
the most underappreciated virtue. the quality most necessary to navigate through this process, come out on top as the nominee, to get elected president of the united states. this is just a moment in time in that campaign. a lot of criticism, a lot of doubt. all of the donors chattering now, chattering to the media, chattering to each other, chattering to the campaign. a lot of voices in the ears over there. so you see now a campaign that is off its footing. that you saw that moment tonight where he goes after marco rubio. really demonstrates a lack of patience. >> wasn't even on his footing. when has jeb looked good this year? >> he's been off his footing and increasingly so. >> let's take a look at the media shots. no big deal, take it on the mainstream media, not fox, not a.m. radio, not radio, which is all right wing now. there's their favorite target. let's watch a bit of this for sheer masochism.
let's watch. >> the questions that have been asked so far in this debate illustrate why the american people don't trust the media. this is not a cage match. and you look at the questions, donald trump, are you a comic book villain? ben carson, can you do math? john kasich, will you insult two people over here. marco rubio, will you resign. jeb bush, why are your numbers fallen? >> in 2008, barack obama missed 60 or 70% of his votes and the same newspaper endorsed him again. this is another example of the double standard that exists in this country between the mainstream media and the conservative media. >> to a lot of people in the media, this is just a great big game and we're the players. >> democrats have the ultimate super pac, called the mainstream media. >> it's interesting, michael, in each case, the candidate was smart to do a bicentennial moment. they had the mike, they pulled back, they stretched it out.
they didn't talk about a particular thing. they said the media generally, it was a targeting of the -- they don't mean fox, probably. what they see as the liberal media. it was really dramatic. >> and it was effective, and it was set up by how the questions were presented to them right out of the box. where they were personalized, where their character was somewhat under assault. you didn't have the straight-up policy question about your tax plan does this. how do you justify it? it was, well, you seem a little crazy in the tax plan you put out there. people sort of resented that right out of the box. they set the moment, the stage for what would come later. for all of them, they had that moment and they took it carefully. they did it smartly. and it was effective. you can do the whole plays to the base, but i would bet you it resonated with a lot more people than just the base. >> steve. >> we live in a time where trust has collapsed in every institution in the country. not just the politicians and the political parties and the washington establishment.
it applies to the media as well. you saw that tonight. these candidates going at the media, going at the mainstream media in front of a republican primary voting audience. and this works. it worked for newt gingrich four years ago when he went after the media. it fueled his rise. and it was determinate in helping him win the south carolina primary. >> the generalization goes on all the time. you can have an opinion like mine is, a straight news program, and to them -- but they also are more sophisticated. i think the people on the right know a lot more about the way the media is divided up. you take a network like fox where you have a number of shows that are aimed at trying to be straight news programs and then a show like hannity, which is clearly a conservative republican point of view, and then o'reilly, which is sort of in the middle there. people are smart, they know what they're watching. why do they applaud a general knock on the media, which includes fox, listening to the radio in the car.
>> that's not the way people interpret it. >> what does the media mean? >> the left. the left media. those networks and -- >> right. >> remember when this began. >> cnbc, liberal? >> you know this better than most. this goes back to nixon. this goes back -- >> pat buchanan. >> that's right. this really took hold in the conservative movement in the '60s. and really with the nixon white house in many ways, and it's been carried through basically since watergate. >> nattering. >> it has only grown inside the party. it used to be a small part of the party who believe this, and it's grown. whether a majority -- look, i guarantee half the guys on the stage didn't believe half of what they were saying about some aspect of the media. but they know it works. >> every day out in talk radio, on fox news, the equivalent of millions of dollars is spent communicating to republican primary voters listening to talk radio, through social media, none of this is on the level. that this is all part of an effort that is complicit in acting the president's agenda. what these voters believe coming back to explain why we have 60% of these republican voters supporting these outsider candidates. they believe that barack obama has succeeded. he has won. he has changed the country. >> every day out in talk radio, on fox news, the equivalent of millions of dollars is spent
communicating to republican primary voters listening to talk radio, through social media, none of this is on the level. that this is all part of an effort that is complicit in acting the president's agenda. what these voters believe coming back to explain why we have 60% of these republican voters supporting these outsider candidates. they believe that barack obama has succeeded. he has won. he has changed the country. and he's done it with a complicit, feckless republican political establishment class. >> the irony is here is it is many of these folks that are making this claim that don't trust the mainstream media, they're just building their own business. it's their own -- they're making a business decision. they're trying to attract their own eyeballs. >> all the candidates were asked at the outset what their personal weaknesses were. didn't get much of an answer on that. here's what ben carson answered.
by the way, hardly any were straight in their answers. >> in terms of applying for a job as president, weakness would be not really seeing myself in that position until hundreds of thousands of people begin to tell me that i needed to do it. >> that was the only honest answer tonight, the guy just couldn't see himself sitting in the oval office. >> the only honest answer. again, one of those aspects about carson that people like. he's not pretending. he's not doing the phony. he's not doing the, oh, hey. >> the hail to the chief in the bathtub. >> honest because anyone who looks at this would say that honestly, i never saw myself in this position. >> by the way, stan mcchrystal, general stan mcchrystal, this is his version of that question, which actually is probably what is the worst thing someone would say about you if i called somebody who didn't like you for a reference? >> that's a good question. >> and that might -- that's the way mcchrystal suggests asking it at a job interview.
i think that might have been a more fun way. >> whose turn is it to answer that question? thank you, chuck todd. that doesn't mean they're right. that doesn't mean they're right. >> i agree. what's the worst thing, right? >> i went through all this with peace corps training. what don't you like about him, what do you like about him. drove me crazy. really helps you teaching business in africa, by the way. much more from the spin room here at the university of colorado for the republican presidential debate. this is hardball, the place for politics. >> if you were president, and you were offered a bipartisan deal that had $1 of tax increases for $10 of funding. >> you find me a democrat that will cut spending $10, heck, if find me a republican in congress that would cut spending $10. >> you don't want the coach to put you in anymore.
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welcome back to hardball live from the university of colorado. the republicans had a field day, actually, tonight going after the media. didn't you hear it? and donald trump took credit for keeping the debate personally at two hours. something that cnbc moderators took issue with. let's watch that back and forth. >> these folks, cnbc, they had it down to three, three and a half hours. i just read today in the "new york times," 250,000 dollars for third-second ad. i went out and said it's ridiculous. i could stand up here all night. nobody wants to watch three and a half or three hours.
it was a big sacrifice, and i have to hand it to ben. we called ben. he was with me 100%. we called in. we said that's it. we're not doing it. they lost a lot of money. everybody said it couldn't be done. everybody said it was going to be three hours, three and a half, including them. and in about two minutes, i renegotiated it down to two hours so we can get the hell out of here. not bad. and i'll do that with the country. we will make america great again. and thank you, everybody. >> just for the record -- just for the record, debate because always going to be two hours. senator rubio -- >> that's not right. that's absolutely not right. you know that. that is not right. >> i'm joined be three of our best reporters. msnbc political correspondent, kasie hunt, katy tur, and senior white house correspondent, chris jansing. chris, this got a little revolting tonight because i thought that the candidates were trying to get votes.
and they were using that initiative to take it out of the moderators, and they were making charges which were general charges about the media's behavior and how -- but then they were storing it on them in the room. >> it's an easy target, right? that's one way you can go and know you're going to get an applause line. and it's also a way in which i think that they lose their own argument. because a lot of them are now complaining, we didn't have enough time. we wanted this to be a more substantive debate, as the three of us were trying to fight through the crowds and hear what they were trying to say, those were the complaints we heard. you also have a choice over how you use your time in the debate. i think in some cases they used their time to complain about something they knew, that a republican audience would cheer about, which is to complain about the moderators or challenge the moderators, but then you don't also get to say, where was the substance in the debate? >> you know, katy, the trade craft, which you all know, part
of it is to have the facts, solid. and when you have to confront the politician, he doesn't want to hear the facts, especially in a public event like tonight, you have to be ready for them to try to intimidate you. we saw that tonight. even when you're 100% right, so i give a lot of props, if you will, to people who go in with the facts, stick to the fact, get proven right against an onslaught of abuse like becky quick did tonight regarding immigration. >> regarding immigration, regarding him saying marco rubio was mark zuckerberg's personal senator on that issue. trump looked her in the eye and said i never said that. she said i read you said that. he said, i never said that. you're the ones who write that. in fact, it is part of his immigration plan, his own immigration plan, that is posted on his own website. >> you put up -- none of us have it that bad. when you're out on the line as you all are, when you get your
facts straight and somebody tries to buffalo you, as they say in cowboy movies, buff low you to the side of the tracks, they had the advantage tonight of time. becky had producers and people she could call and get the paper and read it back. then he said, what, you're right? you got me. >> he pivoted and talked about how he was going to be number one for immigration. he really didn't answer that question. >> she had him. >> by the time she got back to the facts, donald trump had already had his moment. it was gone. >> he had the dramatic moment. >> that's why he in some ways is so brilliant in interviews. he dodges and weaves like he's a prize fighter. you cannot pin him down on anything because he twists it, turns it around, and moves on to a subject he's more comfortable with. if he doesn't agree with you, he'll blame you for asking a question he thinks is unfair. >> thought on that? >> the one person i will say who while on stage took issue with the media but whose campaign is not complaining is marco rubio. i asked his campaign staff in
the spin room whether or not they would be interested in taking a shot at cnbc. they said absolutely not. >> he turned that denunciation from the sun sentinel and flipped it around to his advantage. >> he has shown of all the candidates on the stage, he showed remarkable skill at taking an attack, and it's the strongest attacks out there so far, and turning it around and not being defensive. >> what's the name of his media adviser? todd harris. so good. i was watching him prepare at the microphone. they orchestrated everything. maybe this is conspiratorial. they had the audience ready. they were ready to cheer like mad at every one of the cues. >> you can have the lines ready to ge. you is to deliver them in a way where it seems unscripted. >> i actually -- >> jeb bush hated his job tonight. >> i felt marco rubio seems very rehearsed and very practiced. i'm not sure that -- >> they liked it.
>> the crowd liked it here. but is the viewer not going to take issue with it? >> i thought it was very well orchestrated. the attack from the defensive position. the other guy telegraphs the punch, you come back. people root for you. hillary clinton goes how to do it. ronald reagan knew how to do it. >> you have to do it without seeming defensive. >> thank you guys. fun to talk about this stuff. kasie hunt. katie tur, chris jansing. chuck todd, moderator of "meet the press" has caught up with ben carson. chuck, take it away. >> thank you, chris. dr. carson, let me ask you this question. what was your goal tonight? and do you think you accomplished it? >> the goal was to show up. >> fair enough. >> i accomplished that. >> check. >> but i was hoping to obviously get a chance to weigh in on at least a few economic questions. and that was possible. not in the depth that you would like to do. >> let's go to your tax plan.
that, i feel like you did get cut off. you didn't get to finish it. i remember you had said, you use 10%, because it's easy to do the math. >> right. >> you say it's closer to 15%. walk us through what your tax plan is. >> we're talking about an $18 trillion economy. now, i'm hoping it's going to be a whole bunch more than that when we get things done the right way. we have to deal with what we have. so 15% on that gets you to $2.7 trillion. now, the annual budget is around $3.5 trillion. so you know, you've got to make up another $800 billion. but, remember, you have capital gains tax. and capital gains of about $6 trillion. it's going to bring you a fair amount of money. it's going to make up that difference, plus we haven't even talked about the corporate taxes yet.
so when we add all that up, it's going to get us to where we need to be. >> you're going to run into a few political problems. one of things you said is we're going to get rid of all deductions and loopholes. there's one deduction every homeowner in america loves. the mortgage tax deduction. >> understood. >> that's gone, too, in this plan? >> understood, but they have so much more money in their pocket that they're much further ahead than they would be with that mortgage deduction. also, we're taking 150% of poverty, that level of people, and we're giving them a rebate. they still have to pay the tax. but they're getting a significant rebate. >> i was just going to say, because look, the argument against flat taxes is that essentially the wealthy get a bigger tax break. and in some ways, working class, if you're not at the poverty level, you're over the poverty level, you may be actually
paying more taxes because you don't have the earned income, the income tax credits, things like that. >> we're working that out, but the way it's looking initially is i don't think anybody is going to be paying any more. >> let me ask you about, you said something you don't hear other politicians hear very much. you said i was wrong. >> yeah. >> during a discussion on medicare. >> no, i think it was about the subsidies. >> excuse me. >> and yeah, i was wrong. i was going to take one subsidy and shift it over to somewhere else. and that really violates the whole concept of getting the government out of the way and letting businesses rise and fall based on their own merits. the meritocracy philosophy was one of the things that led america to the pinnacle so quickly. >> that's the big philosophy. bottom line is you're not for the ethanol subsidies. >> that's correct.
>> you would get rid of them in iowa. you thought you would be for them, you're against them. besides yourself, who do you think did as well as you did tonight? i assume you believe you did better than everybody else on stage. >> i don't necessarily believe that. >> okay, who did the best on stage? >> it all comes out much later in the wash. >> right. >> who are you impressed with tonight? >> i was -- i was impressed with everybody. >> oh, you're -- you're not going to take that bait, huh? >> i'm not going to take that one. >> were you surprised donald trump didn't come after you? >> he's a smart man. you know, he does what he thinks is expedient. i think he's looking at the numbers and he's saying, this doesn't seem to work out all that great when i attack him. particularly if i don't have anything legitimate to attack him on. so he's moderated that. just means he's a smart guy. >> dr. carson, all right, stay safe on the trail. >> thank you.
>> all right, chris, back to you, brother. >> thank you, chuck todd. exposing there the charms of dr. ben carson. up next, the road to the white house goes right through the state you're in right now, colorado. this is a perfect purple state. and this is hardball, the place for politics. live from the third republican presidential debate here in boulder.
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welcome back to hardball from the university of colorado. the site of tonight's of course republican third debate. after a tense exchange with moderator, ted cruz offered him a truce that is unique to colorado. >> senator cruz, before we go to break, we're clearly not having that beer you mentioned. but i'll give you 30 more seconds -- >> i'll buy you a tequila. or even some famous colorado brownies. >> i'll give you 30 seconds -- whoa. >> what did the swing state votes out here in colorado hear tonight. the debate comes as dozens of hispanic conservative groups are descending on the state and threatening to boycott the party if they don't soften their tone on minorities. i'm here with the treasurer of the united states under george w. bush. you're a republican and you vote
republican in every instance. >> faithfully. >> do you feel at home in the republican party as a latino? >> absolutely. yes. >> i need more. tell me why. because i look at trump. maybe i was too crass about it, mentioning he said mexicans who come here are rapists, and i thought, no, hispanics who came here tonight were pretty good debaters if you want to get crazy about the discussion. >> first of all, i will not mention him by name, but he does not represent -- he's not even a conservative. he's always been a liberal. he has supported more liberals than he ever supported republicans. he has served a position in the party that he doesn't belong. he doesn't belong to, but i am very much at home in the republican party. i have been since i became a u.s. citizen, i always felt that home. and i have worked and been a surrogate and have had the pleasure of serving a republican president. and this is my home. the fact that this particular
gentleman has a rhetoric that is insulting, not just to me as a woman, but as a latina, as a mexican, as an immigrant, he's not getting my vote. but he doesn't represent the republican party that i love. >> mr. chairman, how do we get to a deal? a fair deal. we had sloppy immigration enforcement for decades. we had the bill under reagan that was never enforced. people got amnesty, but we never had enforcement of stopping of illegal hiring. we know people don't come here to be on the dole or have babies. they come here to get jobs. yet, the people who decide who come here now is some guy who runs a restaurant in chicago decides who comes here because he offers a guy a job. and it's illegal. when are we going to have a regular system like most countries, a work permit. you come here with dignity, you get a good wage and everything is on the books? can't we get there? >> we have to. there's no question the discussion has to be had. it could have been had in the
first couple years of the obama administration and the democrats seem to blame us with not dealing with immigration reform, but they had the congress, they could have dealt with it. it's got to be an issue we get to because there are too many people in this country who could be productive citizens or productive workers, if you will -- >> if you ask one party to do it without the other party helping, you know how it works. one party has to give cover to the other party, if you're going to have a tough enforcement provision, republicans have to carry the load, and obama, he has to sell it. he has to sell the tough enforcement to his own party, not expect the republicans to be the bad guys while he's the good guy. >> right, this is what happened. you're right. >> grown-ups do things like this all the time. we make grown-up deals that don't make everybody happy, but in the long run, it makes us a better country. >> it needs to be fixed. if we republicans recapture the white house. i'll tell you why. hillary clinton had the opportunity to --
>> but we had the clintons for eight years and they didn't do it. >> the democratic party doesn't want it. they wanton issue, not a solution. >> do they want cheap labor? do the business people, look, what i always heard, the hardest working person in america is a guy who just got here, or woman. that's a good worker. >> i don't think it's about cheap labor. i think everybody has a business person, it's not about having cheap labor. it's about having appropriate labor at the right cost. there are some circumstances in america where workers who come into this country do jobs at wages that are relevant to what that business needs. i don't think there's anything wrong with it. i think the problem is we haven't addressed the real issue which is this is not a homogenous group of people and something needs to be done. >> i'm glad you could make it here. thank you for coming here. madam treasurer. >> how will tonight's debate change the course of the presidential campaign? coming up, that's next. you're watching "hardball" live
i didn't inherit any money. my dad was a bartender. my mother was a maid. they worked hard to provide us with a chance at a better life. i'm not worried about my finances. i'm worried about the finances of everyday americans. >> welcome back to "hardball" from the university of colorado, the site of tonight's republican debate. this marks the third time the
republicans have faced off against each other in primetime. how will it change the dynamics of the race. we're back with chuck todd and robert costa, and ashley parker. ashley, let's talk about marco rubio. he seemed to be the most planned, prepared, organized, choreographed, whatever. he took down the man who attacked him, who may have demolished him tonight, jeb bush. >> absolute re. this is why people think and have said marco rubio has the most pure, raw, natural talent of the field. he did that when he got a lot of questions thad should have put him on the defensive about his poor senate voting record, and he took those and he calmly and confidently turned them on the offensive against jeb, against the moderators and used it as a chance to elhis story. >> he's a no show, a deadpete, but one hell of a talker. >> dynamic. the mentor and protege at war on national television. >> star wars. >> barack obama for seven years now, a talker who came from nowhere.
now they want one. >> republican party is looking for inspiration. it's a fractured party that needs youth. someone who can reach out to new demographics. the hispanic vote that is expanding across the country. rubio is saying i'm not an outsider, but i have some conservative cred. look to me, and i think tonight, that exchange with bush is going to be one of the defining moments of this campaign. they're going to say these two floridians clashed and the younger one emerged unscathed. >> we thought it would take until mid-march, but here it is october. the fight between the two of them. >> people, we think the people watching this fight between these two are a bunch of donors. right? a lot of them are people who have been sitting on the sidelines. a bunch of old bush pioneers from '04. also a bunch of romney donor whose have been sitting on the sidelines. the question has been, which one of these two guys is that what we see?
is that what the next six weeks, all of a sudden, is -- >> is he credible as a new establishment figure? marco? because i think he plays both inside and out. >> here's the other thing he's gifted at, the raw, and the buchanan line, political athlete. look how he talked about tax policy tonight. he said, let me tell you about my dry cleaner. that's what bill clinton does so well, what george w. bush does. jeb bush was up there telling you the facts of the things he cut and all this stuff. all very -- >> how did he learn this? that's a rotating speakership, ashley. it's not like john mccormack or san raburn. you get it in the third or fourth term you're in there and don't have it again. how did he get the talent so quickly? >> he's a natural communicator. to chuck's point about the donors watching this, when they watch and this is what they hear, they see rubio as a smart investment because he either gets the nomination this team, or if he doesn't, he gets it next time or he's vice president.
>> if you were teaching political debate, what you would hear and watch in him is not the attack, but the grab. a lot of people take it bush is forever handling an issue. thanks for giving me that. i have to talk about it. he grabs. give me that apple. give me that bottle of beer. give me that, i want it. then he loves it. he loves every topic he grabs. >> he doesn't just grab the apple. he takes it, cuts it up exactly how he wants it. he turns everything back to the generational theme. new blood, future, new, fresh. everything comes back to that. >> by the way, he ease even used an obama phrase, talked about turning the page. turning the page was the most powerful single three-word phrase obama used. it was about bush and clinton. he was trying to run against bush and clinton at the same time. here's barack obama, here's marco rubio -- >> good mistake.
>> using the same language. it was -- you heard the blind quotes earlier this week, where the bush people said, boy, he's the gop obama. it was supposed to be an attack. a rubio person said if we win the presidency twice, we'll take it. >> nobody blames him for defending himself against bush. he was under attack. bush had telegraphed his shot yesterday. he was going to hit him. so i'm defending myself. you cheer for the guy. cruz on the other hand, is a predator. >> yes. >> he comes out. he saw the three moderators, mild manners, straight reporters. io can eat them for breakfast. >> his weakness is he's a fighter, he's too passionate and he knows the crowd, knows the base. >> and nobody likes him. >> they hate the press. >> you hate me, you hate them more. that's what he was doing. >> exactly. >> magnanimous tonight, because he defended everybody on stage. >> yeah. >> which is a little un-ted cruz. >> interesting, the two hispanic
guys, i keep going back to that, because they were under assault as a community a few month ago, now they're the stars. chuck todd, i'm going to tall you mark todd, who is that? robert costa, ashley parker. thank you. >> when we come back, the man right there, pivot tonight, right on point, and sharon epperson, who helps moderate tonight's debates will be here to respond to all the attacks. no, they won't. we'll talk about the attacks as a method of attack. this is "hardball," the place for politics, live from boulder, colorado. the republican presidential debate. do you know the secret to a happy home in these modern times?
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the questions were raised about dan quayle avoiding service in vietnam. >> such a nasty question. >> you want me to answer or do you want to answer? because i got to tell you the truth, even in new jersey what you are doing is called rude. >> we are back to the spin room at the university of colorado. you saw the moderators facing some heavy attack from the candidates in the free fire zone out there. ted cruz had one of the most explosive moments. let's watch him one more time. >> nobody watching at home
believes that any of the moderators has any intention in voting in a republican primary. the questions that are being asked shouldn't be trying to get people to tear into each other. it should be, what are your substantive solutions -- >> i asked you about the debt limit, no answer. >> you want me to answer that question? i will be happy to answer the question. >> we are moving on. >> i have a question for you on the same subject. >> you don't want to hear the answer, john? >> you used your time on something else. >> you are not interested in an answer? >> i need an answer from senator paul. >> the republican national committee tweeted this, cnbc should he ashamed of how this debate was handled. cnbc, sean harwood and sharon epperson. what was your goal tonight before you knew the onslaught of ridicule was coming your way?
>> i wanted to do two things, one, was to play out the divide between the outsiders, trump and carson in the traditional candidates. we saw it the last few days. john kasich saying there is crazy stuff happening in our party. we need to get serious. let him make that case. let them respond. the second thing was to try to get the candidates to defend and explain the economic proposals that they had to help average workers in this economy so we asked a lot about their tax plans and the distribution of income, income inequality. some of those questions, especially given the prescriptions they are offering, are questions i feel hostile to those candidates. >> asking someone to fill in the blanks to give a flash and explain something and show that it adds up is a challenge.
>> it is a challenge. >> they don't want to be told to explain. >> exactly. cnbc's correspondent, my goal was to come in and talk about the issues that responded and get the candidates to discuss about the issues. to ask carly about the sharing economy and what will be done and have her say the federal government should do nothing about it, that was telling for the american people who are part of the sharing economy to know that if carly is president, she would not do anything to help you with your retirement. >> you can ask the question and the person who answers can turn it into an adversarial discussion. there is no referee to come along and say, you are right. you have to get them in their answer to acknowledge they are not answering it or give you the answer. i noticed tonight they were doing different things than that. they were just saying, we are right, you're wrong.
they just dictated the verdict and they were the winners. >> there were a lot of conservatives before the debate who were urging them to go hard after the media. that's what they did. >> where was that? >> i saw a lot of that online, on twitter, articles saying that they were anticipating a debate that was unfair to republicans. >> trump was saying that all over the place. >> well, sure. on the top came out on the campaign in the debate and denied that he had ever said anything. >> my god. he found the material. >> finally said the material that said it was on his own web sites. senator rubio said to me that i misstated something about his tax plan that was not true. i did not. as i explained to him, provides greater after tax income for the 1%. >> the next time around will be tougher for reporters. if they think they can buffalo a reporter with the facts to month
they will buffalo them, just whack them out of the way and hope that time will run out. >> they are hoping people don't care about the facts. if you talk to the students here at the university of colorado, they care about student debt and want to hear what these candidates have to say about it. if they want millennial votes and votes of a wide range of people in the electorate, they have to answer the tough questions. if they are just speaking to their people, they probable he -- >> i work for the budget committee for a few years. when you say you will -- does that mean the size will be 10% as long as we leave under this regime? 10% is all they want from the federal government, entitlements and everything else, military, just 10%. >> exactly. >> how can you exist? john, you did great. thank you. totally straight reporters who had to take the crap tonight.
tonight on "all in" -- >> being terminated from the richland county sheriff's department. the officer who flipped and dragged a students. >> this whole incident started by this student. and hillary clinton's tough talk on wall street. >> if you're president -- >> yes. >> -- and the banks are failing, do we let them fail this time? >> yes. yes. >> we let them fail this time? >> yes. yes. i'll ask robert reich if he believes what we're hearing. plus paul ryan begins his vision quest. >> our party has lost its vision, and we're going to replace it with a vision. >> sir rich and bronson, and why today's runaway government blimp was actually a runaway zombie blimp.