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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  November 12, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PST

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university archives has identified it as a picture of bernie for 50 years or so now. it shower looks like bernie and bernie thinks it's bernie. if the university changes its mind and says someone back at the time misidentifieds a photo in its archive, then we will live with that. controversy. we will eventually sort that one out together. watch this space. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> big surprise. republican presidential candidates are now using the problems at the university of missouri to play their usual game of racial politics. >> as protests grow on campuses -- >> i think it's disgusting. i think the two people that resigned are weak a ineffective people. >> i'm still trying to figure out exactly what it is that got the president fired.
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what exactly did he do or say that he should have retired. >> the eisenhower treatment of immigrants, that was anything but humane. how would your plan be different? >> very humanely. >> the stuff they did was brutal and could never happen today. >> i've heard it both ways. >> there's only one path forward that has any chance of success anytime in the near future. and it begins with proving to people that illegal immigration is under control. >> illegal immigrants are getting welfare payments by filing fraudulent tax returns. and marco rubio wants to triple this program. i don't think there's anything conservative about this. >> if you go to 2014, millions of americans rose up against president obama's illegal executive amnesty. once again, i was proud to lead that fight. >> you said that in order to defeat isis, that you would have to go into iraq.
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does that mean boots on the ground in your view? >> i think it would require boots on the ground, yes. >> the advantage of boots on the ground is that you provide leadership. >> if you want to stay out of war, you have one choice on the republican side and really on either side. if you want to go back to war on the middle east, you'll always have a picture of clinton. >> some republican presidential candidates see a political opportunity in the troubles this week on the cam ps of the university of missouri. >> when they resigned, they set something in motion that's going to be a disaster for the next long period of time. they were weak and ineffective people. how we hire people like this -- trump should have been the chancellor of that university. believe me. >> it's so unfortunate. it really is. >> did you look at their demands? they're crazy. the demands that they're -- the things that they're asking for, many of those things are, like,
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crazy. >> sew trump should have been the chancellor of that university. if he was the chancellor, there would be no resignatioresignati. if there was a trump university, there would be no resignations. in fact, there was a trump university, and not just the head of trump university, but everyone, i mean everyone at trump university in effect resigned when the university closed down after six years of taking big tuition fees in a for-profit university from students and never printing a single degree because it was not a real university. joan robinson, to hear donald trump telling us how things should work in higher education after he in effect shut down his fraudulent operation of trump
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university. >> this sets the bar high. it is ironic. he clearly knows nothing about the missouri protest. and he's used it as an occasion to spout off and show himself as, you know, i don't take any stuff from anybody, which is basically his campaign. >> bob, it seems if anywhere in our public affairs, if a line seems to form that has black people on this side of it, republican presidential candidates want you to know they're on whatever side the black people aren't on. >> i've argued for many years now that the republican party unfortunately had become what i called the safe house for bigotry. and it continues that way. it continues that way in the face of demographic changes that are really if the party
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continues the way it is now is really going to be relegated to the dust bin of history. >> let's listen to ben carson talking about this. >> if you hear speech that you find insults, call the cops. you are now up supposed to call the campus cops if you hear something offensive. what are we doing to tomorrow's generation? >> well, we're being a little bit too tolerant, i guess, you might say. accepting infantile behavior. i don't care where it comes from. to say i have a right to violate your civil rights because you're offending me is un-american. >> there's megyn kelly doing her best imitation of a republican presidential candidate asking a republican presidential candidate a softball question.
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>> yeah, it's a little bit disconcerting to watch that whole thing. because, you know, ben carson of all people obviously should be sensitive to the history here. and that seems to be the part that everyone is ignoring. this isn't about just the past few weeks. there's a whole history at the university of missouri. the very name of the protest, the hashtag of the protest concerned student 1950, referring to the first year a black student was admitted to the university is a sign there's a history here. it's not just about whatever happened in people's news feed. it's the black students or the people protesting there that are aware of the history. i think sometimes the journalists aren't either. this is taking place in a context that means something. it's not just about being insulted. it's about a systematic oppression. it's about systematic racism and asking people to step back and look at the system and not just the individual incidents. >> and bob, this is a campus
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where there's been a swastika put up, there's been threatening language. we have an arrest, terrorist threats that a white man has delivered to these students. so yes, the campus police want to know if you're hearing these kinds of things. >> well, it's interesting because sort of opponents of protests would like to give the impression that, well, there's a little bit of name calling going on. you need a little bit of thicker skin. this has been a terribly hostile environment for an awful lot of students for a long time. including, as you point out, death threats. swastikas, confederate flags on trucks driven around campus, that sort of thing. this is the case of black students on the campus just actually being fed up with the way they've been treated and they decided to fight back against it. >> the republican technique, including the fox news technique, as megyn kelly exhibits, to not include any of
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the actual facts of what anyone has been subjected to. >> republicans this year and facts don't go together in any sentence. they don't. for example, they defend the administrators who resigned but, in fact, they were incompetent administrator. the president of the university system had no experience running a university. he was, in fact, a businessman named to bring fiscal order of a university. but, in fact, had no idea how to run an institute of higher learning. made mistake after mistake after mistake. alienated not just black student, but virtually all students, virtually all faculty, to the point where departments of the university were calling on him to resign before any of this broke.
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but again, those are facts and they're not relevant here, i guess. >> and chris christie, having been demoted out of the big debates desperately clinging to relevance, has used this opportunity to issue a threat to the black lives matter movement, that if you want a meeting with him, he will absolutely not give a meeting. he just wants everyone to know, you know, he's tough against any black protest of any kind wherever it erupts. >> obviously that's his attempt to make himself relevant. i don't think the members of the black lives matter want a meeting with chris christie. if we want to look for a silver lining here, i do think there is one in terms of the agency that's been shown by the students here. it's not just the black students. one of the more moving incidents of this whole incident b was the image from the football team that wasn't just the black student athletes but all the
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athletes linking arms, standing with each other. as your other guests have pointed out, this is not just about the black students feeling like something is wrong. this is about the whole system having experienced some problems, about an incompetent president, about issues that show been addressed long ago. and i think -- i'm a veteran of student protests myself. i don't think i've ever seen one quite as successful as this one. and i think that they deserve credit for that. >> we are joined no uh by phone by nina turner, former ohio state senator who is making important news tonight. nina turner, we understand that you are switching from a supporter of hillary clinton to now a supporter of bernie sanders. can you tell us about that? >> hi, lawrence. i'm on an airplane as we speak. ic barely hear your question. i think you asked why i'm supporting bernie sanders.
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he's a champion to all the things i believe in. he's certainly ahead of his time and the nation is finally catching up with him. he's a heart felt man and that's how i roll most of the time. i go with my heart. and i support what he stands for. >> what has happened that has made you change your mind about hillary clinton? is there any new information in this campaign that we didn't have a few months ago when you decided to support hillary clinton instead of bernie sanders? >> not at all, lawrence. i think what people are of ferging that last year there was no voting for anybody else. i thought it was important to stand up and get democrats ready. and that was out there. so nothing has happened with the secretary at all. she is a fine candidate. this is not about being against
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her. it is about being for senator bernie sanders. i never made a formal endorsement in this election. but certainly i was out there. so i was ready right now. >> have you heard from the clinton campaign about this or from secretary clinton? >> no, i have not. >> have you spoken to bernie sanders since making this announcement? >> i have spoken to the senator, not since this announcement came out, but i did speak with the senator about two weeks or so ago and had a chance to hear his message firsthand about to why he feels the nation is ready for this kind of political revolution. and he is the one to lead and the passion he has is the same passion that i have serving people who have lost hope in this country, people who are tired of the status quo, tired of business as usual. and i'm right with the senator on that. so i'm going to do everything i
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can to introduce bernie sanders in the same way i was introduced to him as well. i was learning about the senator the same way other folks learned about him and are learning about him. >> political observers are surprised to see someone switching from the front-runner, who has a 20-point lead in the latest national poll to the person in second place. it's unusual politic, don't you agree? >> well, lawrence, they shouldn't look at it that way. as i said, i never endorsed. yes, i was supportive, but i never endorsed. and now that i know what i know about senator sanders and had the chance to engage him and watch him over the last few months, this is where i believe i need to be. and i make decisions based on where i need to be and what i think is right and not what is necessarily politically correct. so we're going to run a hard race, the democrats are fortunate that they have three strong candidates, but we're going to run this race and run strong. >> nina turner, thank you very much for joining us. i can hear them just about
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telling you to hang up that phone on that airplane. >> thank you. they're closing the doors on me, lawrence. thank you. >> quick reaction to this. >> i have two thoughts. one is idealistic and one is simple. the idealistic view is here is a woman who is just expressing her principled view and has made an endorsement based on that view. the other view, the more cynical view is, all right, what's the politics in the area that she previously represented. who is she trying to help with this, because as you point out, it is odd to hop from a big-time front-runner to someone who's trailing. >> quick break, more reaction to this right after this. ♪ the beautiful sound of customers making the most of their united flight. power, wi-fi, and streaming entertainment. that's... seize the journey friendly.
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>> imagine the images on the screen flashed around the world as we were dragging parents away from their children. and putting them in, what, detention septembcenters and th systematically sending them out. nobody thinks that's realistic but more importantly, that's not who we are as americans. >> coming up, how this issue is splitting the republican presidential candidates. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪
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hand, having just executed an american hostage. this man has come to be known in the press as jihadi john. he was given that nickname by former isis hostages who gave him that nickname because he was one of a group of english speak, british accented isis terrorists who held isis captives in syria. he's the man who executed american hostage james foli on tape. that tape was released last august and that's what drew the united states into the military campaign against isis. he's also been seen on tape with other hostages, some of then americans. earlier this year, he was identified as a british man, born in kuwait, moved to west london when he was 6 years old. had a relatively middle class upbringing. he was a graduate in computer science at the university of
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westminster in 2009. western hostages who have been released have recalled that when he held them in captivity in isis, he was a particularly brutal captor. well, tonight, this breaking news is that we are getting reports as yet unofficially confirmed, but we are getting reports that jihadi john has been targeted in a u.s. military air strike in syria. this news is just coming in at this hour. we're still awaiting further details. but nbc news is reporting tonight that at least according to one u.s. senior official, jihadi john has been targeted in a u.s. air strike. joining us again tonight to try to get some new details on this just breaking news is the nbc news national security producer. what do we know about this story tonight? courtney kube. >> he's better known as jihadi john. he's known for his particularly brutal behavior against western hostages and hostages held by isis.
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a u.s. official tells us that a u.s. drone strike today near rakka targeted jihadi john. what they don't know is whether they actually got him or not. it's one of the enduring problems they have with these strikes in places like syria where there are no u.s. ground troops yet, is that when they strike one of these targets, they don't know. there's no one on the ground there who can do dna or do any kind of after-action battle assessment to find out whether they've gotten him or not. they generally have to rely on intercepts, or they have to rely on some sort of chatter amongst isis after the fact. you know, talking about whether he's dead or not, whether he's been struck. so we do know that they targeted him. what's significant about that is just the fact that he has been such an elusive figure for more than a year now. he first came in the headlines in summer of 2014 when he executed journalist james foley, and he was this enduring figure
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that we all saw with this british accent, standing there with a knife as his victim knelt in front of him. and so he's been an elusive figure, someone that the u.s. has been looking for for more than a year now. the fact that they had actionable intelligence to go after him today is significant. >> in terms of the actionable intelligence, that's where we're at. the official statement from peter cook, which has just been put out says that u.s. forces conducted an air strike today november 12 targeting jihadi john, we'll assessing results and will provide additional information. we're not hearing he was killed, we are not hearing he was injuried. we're just hearing definitively that he was targeted. do we know anything about whether the type of information that led them to believe they could take action against him, whatever the intelligence was
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that they thought was actionable was the same type that would tell us broof of life or whether he was injuried. >> we don't know that. i asked several officials what kind of intelligence they had and no one would disclose that. it's not definitive. especially when you're talking about intercepts. as soon as they disclose that's how they're listening to isis, they're listening to these fieger, they're going to -- their intelligence sources are going to dry up. so we don't know that. keep in mind, it's not the first time they've had some actionable intelligence in syria. they attempted a hostage rescue. unfortunately, they were there too late and the hostages were already gone. there have been other instance where is they' gotten intelligence. and it has actually proven to be relatively correct. it was just in that case late. we see figures in pack staj, it's the same thing. we'll get word they targeted a
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senior leader there, and then it's some time before we hear. and often it comes up on the internet. we'll see chatter on internet web forums where they're talking about so and so has been martyred. so it's often that kind of thing. we don't get real hard intelligence these people have or have not been killed unless they pop-up in a video somewhere alive or we start to -- we just blooe what we hear on the internet from their co-fighters. >> in terms of the u.s. process here, obviously jihadi john is somebody who is well known in the west, no the just because he is an isis fighter, but because he is directly implicated with video provided by isis itself in the deaths of american journalist james foley and stephen sotloff. he's pictured in the beheading video, in other beheading videos including one for abdul raman
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peter casif and kenji koto, a japanese journalist. because he's so directly linked in terms of those deaths, do we expect that they get confirmation that u.s. officials will go to those families first before they made an official pronouncement? >> i'm actually told they went to those families. the release of this information was delayed. they wanted to make sure there was notification to the families prior before the media. they couldn't tell the families if he was dead or not. but they just wanted them to know that he had targeted them. >> courtney, thank you. again, this breaking news tonight, reports tonight, confirmed by the pentagon there has been an air strike in syria targeting the isis militant known as jihadi john muhammad
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of. >> by explaining to them what the global jihad movement is and what its intentions are. we need to recognize that this is a very different situation than what was going on in 2003. saddam hussein and al qaeda at that time were not an exponential threat to us. this is. and if we can't recognize the difference between the two, we're in tough shape. >> "the washington post" front page lead story this morning was about disagreements within the republican party on foreign policy. rand paul's anti-war, anti-interventionist foreign policy is a fresh change for some in the republican party. rand paul communicates to people who are more on the side of anti-war, less interventionist policies, that they, too, can belong on the conservative side of things if they agree on some of the other issues. rabd paul makes the party more inclusive. joining us now again, matt lewis, senior contributor to
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"the daily beast" and a columnist for the week. matt, in the republican party, this was a new version of republican debate to see this much disagreement on foreign policy on a presidential debate stage. >> yeah, i think it's healthy. i do. i felt the best part of that debate on tuesday night was marco rubio and rand paul battling. i think they both had a very good moment. i think rand paul for the first time out of four debates really doubled down on who he is and owned his kind of libertarian, anti-interventionist foreign policy. i think marco rubio had really good responses as well. and i think it's actually very healthy that we're having this debate. because look, on one hand, i think you clearly, most republicans would agree, america needs to be a beacon of hope. you want a strong america in terms of foreign policy. on the other hand, i still think looking back at the bush year, not a lot of an appetite for
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nation building. so this is the good thing about debates and primaries. you can hash out these ideas a little bit. >> let's listen to a sample of the debate. >> i know rand is a committed isolationist. i'm not. i believe the world is a stronger and better place. united states is the best military power in the world. >> how is it conservative to add $1 trillion in military expenditures. you cannot be a conservative if you're going to keep promoting programs you can't pay for. >> there are radical jihadists in the middle east beheading people and crucifying christians. i believe the safer -- i doenl believe, i know the world is a safer place when america is the strongest military power in the world. >> i don't think we're any safer -- i do not think we're any safer from bankruptcy court. this is the most important thing we're going to talk about tonight.
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can you be a conservative and be liberal on military spending? can you be for unlimited military spending and say i'm going to make the country safe? we need a safe country, but we spend more on our military than the next ten countries combined. >> anna marie, a real debate broke out there for a minute. >> it's true. for a party that seems to have something against philosophers, it was almost entirely a philosophical debate. it wasn't really about what's actually happening. it's about the principle of isolationism versus the principle of america being a global power when really, the facts on the ground, rather than the facts on the ground are pretty complicated. and one of the things that troubles me about what's happening in the republican debate, you know, among the republicans is that almost -- i think it's only rand that's against having a no-fly zone in syria.
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republicans seem to be pointing out who they're against, not who they're for. in this particular case, they just want to be strong against putin. whatever putin is doing, they want to be against it. whether or not it's a good idea doesn't really matter. i don't think anyone is thinking through these things. inthe cost of a no-fly zone, having a no-fly zone wouldn't do much about the kind of military fighting happening in syria, no one is asking those questions. i wish they had some welder, i guess, in there also asking some harder questions. >> one person who's been kind of a welder and kind of on the rand side of this debate, actually is ra donald trump. he says if russia wants to wipe
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out isis, great. let's let them. he's reluctant to this idea of sending troops anywhere, certainly back into iraq or into syria. he's kind of hands off. >> let's listen to the way only the philosopher the clown donald trump can say that himself, which he did yesterday on "morning joe." >> i would say i'm the most militaristic person on that stage, but i also know when to do it. i love the fact that, you know, putin is bombing the hell out of somebody and the people he's bombing right now have to be isis to a certain extent. having putin dropping bombs on isis is a very positive thing. >> georjeb bush said that's recs and irresponsible. >> i think it's reckless to start world war 3 over syria. >> trump is the closest one to rand paul on these issues on the debate stage, y et he always
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begins it by saying i am the most militaristic person. he's very proud of being the biggest sabre rattler of the sabre that he doesn't want to use. >> it's such a weird thing to say, too, right? normally you might say look, i'm very strong on national security. but i'm militaristic, but that's how he talks. that's the donald. there's a schism and soul searching. but the issue on national security is healthy. in the run-up to i remark it seemed a nonsecond by ter to go into iraq. but basically everyone rallied around the flag, rallied around george w. bush. not a lot of questions were asked. here it reelsly good and really interesting that republicans are really having these disagreements. is russia or geopolitical foe? is russia our allies? are they helping us fight
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against isis? should we take out assad? all sorts of questions and frankly, i don't even know the answer to it. diametrically opposed on this big world view question about how do we use our military. >> that will have to be the last word. thank you all for joining us. coming up, a gesture of humanity and compassion by a pair of boston police officers saves the life of a veteran on veterans day. that's tonight's good news. when it comes to helping you reach your financial goals,t taking small, manageable steps can be an effective...
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'cause i don't trust robots. right...well, if the portfolio you're invested in doesn't perform well for two consecutive quarters, amerivest will reimburse your advisory fees for those quarters. i wasn't born yesterday. well, actually it looks like you were born yesterday. happy belated birthday. thanks. for all the confidence you need td ameritrade. you got this. >> and now for the good news, good cop news. boston police captain hasib hussein was supposed to have a day off yesterday, but instead he accepted an assignment oversees accident at a construction site. when a bus stopped nearby, he saw passengers running off the bus. they told captain hussein there was a man on the bus with a
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hatchet who was yelling that he was going to kill himself. captain hussein boarded the bus, immediately boarded the bus. here is one account of what happened next. hussein saw a man he judged to be around 50 in a tone closer to a parish priest than a cop who calmly asked him, what can we do to help? hussein noticed he was holding the hatchet close enough to his skin to break the skin. he said he was a veteran staying in a homeless shelter downtown. by the time the vet made that declaration, captain hussein was joined by boston pd patrol officer david godin who uttered the words that may well have saved one veteran's life. sir, i want thank you for your service.
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hussein said later that godin neutralized the situation with those words of gratitude and respect. this could have gone a number of ways and most of them looked bad. but when he heard someone offer him a thank you on veterans day, it seemed to drain all the tension from moment. on a day set aside to honor the sacrifice made on behalf of one man, one veteran felt disconnected and lost on this veterans day, riding a bus heading down columbia road was persuaded not to kill himself or possibly unleash his anguish on others by a gesture of humanity and compassion conveyed by a pair of boston police officers. you can read all of the account of this good news at boston herald.com. coming up, the couple who lost their foster child in a utah courtroom this week because the judge doesn't think same-sex couples can be good parents. lon.
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>> many of you have by now seen the video of linwood lambert being repeatedly hit by tasers by police before he died in a small town in southern kra virginia. the video has been shown on this network repeatedly, including last night on this program. other networks now have this video, and so it's become difficult to avoid seeing it, even if you don't want to see it. friends of mine, especially black friends, have been telling me that they've seen enough of this video, that it is just simply too disturbing, too awful to watch. one reason why we show videos like this repeatedly is that not everyone watches television at the same time. and so each time we show it, many people are seeing it for
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the first time and learning something important from it. joining us now, mark claxton, director of the black law enforcement alliance and former new york city police officer. mark, what do you think is the most significant part of that video? >> i think the most significant part is right at the point where mr. lambert is attempting to enter the hospital, right at the doors of the hospital, if you will, while he is handcuffed, slamming into the doors of assistance, if you will, and subsequently being tased. i think that's very telling, that one scene of this very troubling den disturbing video is telling. >> what do you think it is that people should be paying attention to in this video. >> i think it's important for people to, you know, police officers we've gotten away from this in this country over the past several year, have really gotten away from the tradition of policing, which is public service, offering assistance,
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rendering aid, providing when in es, you know, the appropriate medical services, as was the case here, which should have been given to mr. lambert. and they seem to revert often times too quickly into these physical confrontations, excessive physical force, even in the face of a person who obviously has some medical issues that should be addressed with their assistance. it's just too easy now for policing and law enforcement to turn into a physical altercation or combat situation that really escalates above and beyond what is the professional standard. >> the interesting thing about this one, mark, is it begins with the right decision which is they come upon this guy and they realize this guy is not in a criminal posture. he's in a mentally disturbed posture, let's take him to an emergency room. let's get him some treatment. we're showing video of him now where he was first apprehended by the police. and they were trying to do the right thing at that point. but on the other video that you
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just showed, we just showed at the hospital, it seems like they had somebody who was handcuffed who they knew could not run away. i just want to tell the control room, stop showing the video. just stop it. i don't want to run this thing on a loop like this. take down the video. okay. so they have somebody who can't run away, he's being stopped by the door. and it looks like -- let's do the easiest arm's length version of dealing with this guy at this moment. let's just pop him with some tasers. >> yeah. and it's -- one thing outside of the use of those tasers, federal guidelines. you're talking about a fleeing individual, not an individual who's actively engaged in some kind of physical combat with the police officers. that is relevant especially nowadays because it seems there's a dramatic increase in the use of tasers. but what's also disturbing is
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that you have a collective, a group of individual police officers, all these professionals out of all of them, not one said okay, that's enough. let's stop that. and i think that's missing in today's law enforcement. there needs to be -- anyone can get caught up in in the emotions of a situation, but there ought to be one of those professionals who has the ability or the capacity or the knowledge to say hey, that's enough. all right, that's enough, we got him, it's good, everything is all right. and then continue on providing the service that they initially had intended to provide. >> mark, it's a very small police department, about 28 officers. is training generally weaker in those smaller police departments? >> generally speak, and i'm really speaking generally, yes, it is. but there is a training issue that is occurring throughout the nation. i've said this before, that until we get to the point where we're willing to -- where we demand that there are national professional standards for
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policing and there are certain things that will occur across the board, we'll always be faced with these conflicts of technical terms and conflict of procedural issues, et cetera. we need national professional standards for policing. other professions have national standards. law enforcement and policing is in desperate need of national standards. >> thank you for your perspective on this tonight. coming up, a judge orders a foster child removed from the home of a married couple. and the only reason the judge gives is that the women, these two women do not make a fit parental unit because they are lesbian. when heartburn strikes, take zantac for faster relief than nexium or your money back. take the zantac it challenge. hey! how are you?g? where are we watching the game? you'll see. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole
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>> we have breaking news at this hour. u.s. officials confirm tonight that a u.s. military air strike
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has targeted the isis fighter known as jihadi john. it's not yet known what the result of that air strike is, but it took place inside raca syria. he's the masked isis fighter seen on tape over the last year executing western fosages including americans james foley. he was reportedly given that nickname by former isis hostages because he was one of a small group of english-speaking terrorists fighting with isis. he has been identified as a british citizen who joined the ranks of isis in syria, and tonight, we are told he has been the target of an air strike carried out by an american drone in syria. the pentagon says that they are still assessing the result of tonight's operation that targeted jihadi john. but military officials confirm tonight that he was targeted in a u.s. air strike in raca, syria. we will bring you more on the story as it develops. accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates
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the true partnership where people,technology and ideas push everyone forward. accelerating innovation. accelerating transformation. accelerating next. hewlett packard enterprise. on tuesday, a utah juvenile court judge ordered the removal of an infant girl from the foster care of a lesbian couple, april and becky. the court session was closed to the public and the press and so it has left some observers wondering about what happened including the republican governor of utah. >> i'm a little puzzled about
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the action down there personally. i expect the court and a judge to follow the law. you may not like the law, but he should follow the law. we don't want to have activism on the bench in any way, shape or form. >> joining us now for tonight's last word are april hogland and becky pierce. april, what was it like to be in that court session where suddenly you lose this child? >> it was heart breaking and devastating. i had to try to keep my emotions together. but it was very hard. of. >> and becky, did you see this coming? was there any indication that this was what was going to happen? >> we knew that he didn't like same-sex couple, but we didn't expect this to happen. >> is there anything in utah law that backs up this decision? >> there is not. >> and so that's the surprise
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that the governor was exhibiting when this was brought up to him, right? that he can't see what there is in utah law that allows the judge to rule this way? >> correct. of. >> and did you have any trouble in the initial arrangements for this foster care? >> no. once we were able to get legally married, we were able to obtain a foster care license. and that has been really smooth and easy. >> and april, what about in your neighborhood. were your neighbors hostile at all towards you about this? >> oh, no, not at all. we've never had any sort of hostility or discrimination in our neighborhood. this is the first time. >> and becky, why did this end up in court at this point? >> this was just a routine hearing for the child. this actually had nothing to do with us.
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it was a hearing, a normal process for the child, and somehow this came up. >> so you actually thought you were just going in for a routine hearing, it's normal in these kinds of situations when you have a foster child, and it was just going to be that routine and you would go home? >> correct. >> did you have a lawyer with you in this situation? >> we did not. because we didn't expect that we would need one. >> we weren't on trial. >> well, what about now? do you intend to try to pursue this legally and get more help? >> yes. we do have an attorney. >> and what do you think the options are at this stage? >> several lawyers are working together right now and they've all filed papers. >> and april, how long did you have this child? >> three months in our home. >> and an infant like that for three months, you get pretty attached after about, i don't know, maybe three minutes. >> right. >> yes, we did. it didn't take long.
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>> what is it like at home now without that little girl? >> she's still in our home, but she'll be removed if the judge is allowed by tuesday. our lawyer has fired papers along with a reference and in the guardian item. >> so there isn't anyone -- is there anyone on the other side of this case other than the judge? >> no, there's not. >> no. >> so it is you against one judge. >> yes. >> with no lock to back

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