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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  November 13, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PST

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everybody in paris also was watching this game on tv. and the explosions happened outside the stadium. and again, according to my sources, it was not an attack against the president, but he has been very quickly evacuated. now, i want to point something also, which is to point out something which is quite important. the fact that the french president compared to the american president changed his security in the recent months after the attacks against "charlie hebdo." he's heavily protected. but the french president, when he's moving inside paris, he's trying to be invisible. he doesn't have 20 cars. he had one cars or two cars. sometimes he's going by himself on the motorcycle to do things. the protection in the french system around the presidency is completely different than the secret services here in washington, and the french have
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a tendency to say we have to be invisible and it's sometimes better to be invisible than to have a big presence. the french president is heavily protected, but it's a completely different system than the united states have. >> i'm glad we pointed that out. laura haim of canal plus, the television network in france. laura covers the u.s. white house for a living. and for people just tuning in, 8:00 p.m. in the east, 5:00 p.m. on the west coast, there has been a terrible terrorist attack tonight in paris. more accurately, a series of them. starting with explosions outside a very well-attended soccer game at the central stadium in paris. then an attack on a restaurant. and then an attack on a music venue where a band from california was playing to a sold-out crowds -- crowd.
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hundreds of fans tonight. eagles of death metal is the name of the band. contrary to their name, they're not a metal band. it's an ironic name. it's considered to be a kind of humorous, ironic alias, as someone put it earlier tonight. sadly, that became a hostage situation, and sadly it appears the terrorists started killing people inside that concert venue one by one. and just as sadly, we're talking about a death toll well over 100 tonig tonight, a city that has been shaken, a city that has been largely shut down. the borders of france have been closed. a state of emergency has been declared. the president, francois hollande, has been very, very visible tonight. and mobile. moving around the streets of paris. he has spoken to the nation. these photos have been released of him in the equivalent of the
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situation room inside the elysee palace, after he was spirited out of the soccer match. he met with the cabinet, met with security officials. this photo purports to show him at the moment the explosion sounded inside the venue, inside the stadium. we have it for you here on a continuous loop. you can hear the explosion in the background. [ explosion ] >> kind of a sickening sound. and that's what the crowd was able to hear. some in the crowd knew exactly what it was when it happened. we have been airing live french cable television coverage all evening long. it's now 2:03 a.m. in paris.
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on an autumn friday night. it would normally be bustling. it would normally be a city of heavy activity but not right now. the music venue was in a part of town where a lot of young people hang out, a very, very popular venue. and sadly tonight it was the scene of an apparent massacre. you see our graphic at the bottom of the screen. apparently, the death toll has gone north of 140 souls in anywhere from three to seven separate attacks. and this video has just started airing. it appears to show one by one some of the lucky few who were able to get out of the venue, the concert interrupted by
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gunfire. brazen terrorists. they got out of a car in one case, no masks, no attempt to hide their identity. they were armed with ak-47s. they went into a restaurant firing. our colleague from french television reports some of those same gunmen later went to the music venue and they were the ones who started killing members of the audience there. among our colleagues watching and listening with us, andrea mitchell, our chief foreign affairs correspondent here with us in new york. andrea, what a tragedy. as you point out -- >> it is an incredible tragedy. and we should point out that american intelligence does not know who was responsible. they are going back over electronic intercepts. they're trying to see what they or anyone else may have missed. the president made it very clear earlier that he was not calling president hollande because the french were still in response mode and he does not want to get in the way or slow them down. but it's already been indicated that president hollande, at
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least according to french reports, is not going to the g20 meeting that president obama is scheduled to go to. and right now in vienna john kerry is about to organize this meet i meeting which is supposed to start saturday morning local time in vienna. same time as paris. and that is a meeting of 19 countries, an unprecedented meeting, trying to figure out a way ton only counteract isis but also do something about the syrian civil war and the migration crisis which is becoming such a game changer as far as the european response. we should also point out that the french ambassador got something wrong, something i had just mentioned. he tweeted in response to donald trump how angry he was that trump had tweeted about the french gun control laws not preventing a tragedy, and he was responding in error to a trump tweet from last january at a previous incident. and trump tonight is tweeting his condolences.
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so the french ambassador made a diplomatic error. >> i'm glad we cleared that up. again, it is unclear and i apologize for this, what this scene is. but we don't have any other live pictures from paris referenced or unreferenced to show you. we are talking all night tonight about these several different venues. the suicide bombing outside the soccer game. the attack on the streetside restaurant. the attack on the music venue. and evidently several more. and so we're at the mercy of our sister network for tonight's purposes which has been bf mtv, and they have camera locations throughout paris. we have not in all cases been able to listen to a translated
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voice reporting what's been going on there. we want to tell you that american airlines has held some flights, paris-bound flights in this country. they have canceled at least another. united airlines says they're reviewing it case by case. but when france closes the border, that can also mean flights incoming by air and certainly ongoing. this is a national emergency in france, and no one can remember france in the modern era closing -- sealing off the borders, closing in effect their country. evan kohlmann is a veteran analyst of various terror groups. he is with us tonight, remains with us. evan, anything more you've been able to ascertain? >> so far all we're seeing right now in terms of the actual chatter taking place among isis members, supporters, and others, it seems to be individuals who
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are sympathizers, who are obviously supporters of this. no one so far has given any indication that they had objective evidence or any proof that they had objective evidence this was going to happen. it's important to understate this, that we saw a claim of responsibility by isis for the russian plane crashing. we still don't know if that was terrorism or even if that was isis. so even if isis does claim credit for this, we need to take a step back here. you know, isis also claimed credit for what happened in january with the "charlie hebdo" thing. so did al qaeda in yemen. we still don't know which of those claims was legitimate, if either of them was legitimate. so i think it's very likely that we will see some type of claim of responsibility from isis. just because they say they did it, we have to be careful with this group. they have a very intense notion of the theatrical. and unlike al qaeda, they seem to have this desire to take credit for almost anything that gets them headlines.
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all news is good news for them. and so, you know, look, they're going to cheer this. they're going to celebrate this. whether or not they actually played any active role in it. so we have to be careful. it's almost certain this will come out in the next few hours, they will start issuing statements about this. just because they say they did it, let's see what the evidence shows. >> evan, same question to you. i asked a previous guest, what would you do if you were police commissioner in new york, d.c., l.a., so on? >> yeah, look, it's important to distinguish the situation that is in france and is in paris versus the situation here in the united states. there are many, many hundreds more french nationals that have received training or have been radicalized in places like afghanistan, syria, bosnia-herzegovina, than the united states, and it's much, much easier for these individuals to get back from these conflict zones to france than it is here to the united stat states.
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so the threat whether we're talking about individuals that are self-radicalized or week talking about individuals that have been trained abroad, it's much less the threat here. that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. i think what we're looking at here is the likelihood or the possibility that there are copycats out there, there are crazy vijds that might take it upon themselves to echo this attack in some way, shape, or form. i think if this was to happen, hopefully no one is that stupid and foolish, but it's not necessarily that they will go after a french target because i don't think here the real target was france. the real target was the west. and so you know, look, just because the target was in france today or in paris today, individuals could carry out attacks in any western target and would have resonance among supporters, the same type of propaganda value to them. all this is important to underscore when we're looking at this. >> really disturbing pictures coming in of bodies covered,
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just sitting out on sidewalks on the side of city streets in paris. greg keller is with the associated press in paris. we talked to him earlier. he was very close to the music venue tonight, heard the gunshots and explosions. greg, pbefore i get to you, jus for one second we saw president hollande speaking but we could not hear the translation. we now know he said this. "for all those who've seen these atrocities, rest assured we want to say that we will bring the fight against terrorism, we will be without pity because when terrorists are capable of such atrocities it will certainly be faced with a determined france, a united france." greg, what can you report from there? >> hi, brian. i'm still outside the bataclan theater, behind a police line, about 100 meters down the
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avenue. right now i can see a bunch of people wearing -- or wrapped in those orange space blankets that they put on people in shock. so i'm assuming these are people who had been in the theater and the police are taking them out. i can see them getting put on a bus wrapped up in those orange shiny fwlanktz. there's still -- the boulevard is still completely cut off. there are dozens and dozens of police between us and the theater. and we're basically behind police lines with the big media encampment. >> we're seeing some of those people in the same blankets you get after you run a marathon or, as you said, if you're in shock. they're meant to keep body heat inside. i'm gathering it's -- i see people wearing winter courts. it's a cold night there. >> yeah.
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it's pretty chilly here. >> and are people just congregating outside knowing what a tragedy has taken place, or is it because you're with the media you're allowed to be out there? >> reporter: there's been a mix of media and people just passed us by, people in the neighborhood, i've seen people out on their balconies trying to see what they can see. the police are keeping us well away from the theater but it's not like there's a lockdown. >> greg keller with us from france as we try to piece together this picture and put together the facts as we know them tonight. laura haim has been so helpful. she's the white house correspondent for the french tv network canal plus. she has been calling back to her newsroom and to friends and colleagues and telling us what
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she has learned. laura, what new have you learned? >> i've learned a lot of things in the past five minutes. i just spoke with someone who has been involved in what it's called in france the white plan. it's a plan which is put in action when there's a terrible thing happening in france, and it has been reinforced after the attacks against "charlie hebdo." the white plan means that the 17 hospitals in paris are on alert and each hospital has a specific function. so you have i hospital which is going to take care of the families and the dead. you have five hospitals which are going to take care of the injured. and you have another hospital or other hospitals which are going to take care of the people who have been psychologically injured. and according to my source, there are a lot of people who are in complete shock tonight. one person was injured in the
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bullet and described very precisely what happen inside the bataclan, inside the musical theater. and this person said the attackers arrived and began right away to fire to the crowd. they didn't say anything in the first ten seconds. then one guy began to scream "we're stronger than the french," end of the quote. and then according to this witness who was injured in the leg by a bullet the person, the attacker, exploded himself in front of the crowd in the bataclan. that's a very reliable source which is telling me -- who told me that. again, it's a testimony about the horror inside the bataclan, which happened a few hours ago in paris. what you have to keep in mind, brian, is two things also which
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are important. it's probably the first time and i think to the best of my recollection it's the first time in france that a suicide bomber or several suicide bombers attacked france. it never happen before. so tonight it's the first night that suicide bombers attacked the french democracy. the suicide bombers, there are two, they detonated themselves outside the stadium, where there was a soccer game. they had a belt with explosive. and according to the first result of the investigation, there was also a gas tank outside the stadium. and then 15 minutes later, another group of people attacked the restaurants and the music hall, and there was a witness, a woman who was 25 years old who was watching from a window the
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attack against the restaurant. she's completely in tears tonight. and she described that she saw two men coming out from their car with faces which were not hidden by mask, that went to the roof of the restaurant where people were having dinner, and in cold blood they executed in the head some people who were having dinner. she saw that. and then after those two guys went inside the restaurant and began very quickly to fire with automatic weapons a lot of bullets. we don't know at this moment is those men after that, after the attack against the restaurant, went to the bataclan to take hostages and to kill them or if it was again another team. >> that's incredible. so they used the element of surprise very effectively. >> it was very coordinated.
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and all the people i spoke with are telling me you that had between 9:30 and 10:00 local time. the attacks outside the stadium, basically the suicide bombers detonated themselves. but at the same times or 15 minutes later but in a very short window you had the attacks in the restaurant. again, people were eating in the restaurant. you had also some people who were apparently shooting in the streets of paris but in the same district. it's too soon to say if it was the same people or it was, again, another team. and then you had a few minutes later in the same district, and it's really important for me to point that out, it's a very small district in paris. it's like five blocks in new york of broadway. different people went to the theater and began to fire to the
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crowd. i just want to point you -- to point out again that the crowd was very young according to my sources. it was people mostly between 20 and 30 years old. they wanted to have good time. they wanted to listen to a concert done by a california band. it was a big event for those french people in paris. and as the french president pointed out, it's a horror which happened tonight in paris. >> laura, what do you think this will do to france, and how much do you think the french people will be willing to, if they're asked to give up some freedoms? i was talking about jerusalem during the terrible string of bus bombings and suicide bombings and how restaurants would check every customer coming through the door. >> nobody knows, brian, what's going to happen. what is really striking is when i called my friends, my
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colleagues, i never, never experienced this type of feeling over the phone. it's almost 3:00 in the morning now in paris. a lot of people are still awake. and everybody is in shock. complete shock. it's terrible. and the question in my conversations i had with my colleagues in france is always the same. are they french? people in paris do not forget that the attackers against "charlie hebdo" and against the hyper market where there were a lot of jewish people were committed by french citizens. so a lot of people at this moment in paris would like to know the attackers tonight, were they french citizens. and it's a very important to follow up this story in the days ahead. >> laura, thank you very much for that accounting as laura
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continues to call home. home can mean friends of hers in france and home can be her newsroom where she has learned a lot about what went into this perversely coordinated series of terrorist attacks tonight in paris. we're talking about a death toll of over 120. that's certainly what we're seeing from the french cable television networks. we're seeing ambulances just lined up door to door, some of them unable to take away any living victims, and instead are taking people to the morgue tonight in paris. andrea mitchell continues to watch this with us. this is the largest crime scene in the world. this is the saddest spot in the world in what is such a
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beautiful city. >> the city of light. and as they are coping with this devastation. the largest terror attack in a western city since 9/11. extraordinary. in london and now in new york city there is solidarity. we are seeing that governor cuomo has ordered that the lights be lit in blue, red, and white, the tres colours, the colors of the french flag. the empire state building. we're seeing wembley stadium in london. so there is an outpouring of emotion among france's closest western allies. and this morning president hollande was talking to president obama about what now seems routine. a g20 meeting scheduled for turkey. they were going to be traveling. they were going to be meeting. clearly he is not going to be going. at least the current plan is the french foreign minister would be
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attending in his place. secretary of state kerry ordering that embassies -- the french embassy, that beautiful embassy that we know so well, begin trying to find out how many americans could possibly have been involved. americans in paris are being told to check in, don't only check in with your family and friends, check in with the u.s. embassy. there is a number that we can put up on our facebook page that people can check in and let the embassy know you are all right or whether you know someone who may in fact have been at the stadium or any of the other venues. but this is a very challenging intelligence issue. we also know that mike mccaul, the chairman from texas of the homeland security committee, is putting out the word that there is no credible threat to the american homeland. that's the first official acknowledgment. and he's been checking all of the intelligence.
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that mike mccaul, the republican congressman in terms of homeland security, says there's no credible warning to the american homeland as of now. but they know what they're doing at the counterterrorism center out there in virginia, they are checking every possible intercept over the last 24, 48 hours. >> we should also say facebook has added a feature, a way for people to mark themselves as safe, people in -- visiting france and with relatives and loved ones back here who may be concerned about them. so that's helpful. susan cork is with us. her official title is director of the countering anti-semitism and extremism at human rights first. but more importantly, she's been working on a report on extremism in france and has been back from paris for less than a week. susan, talk about your findings
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and your thoughts upon hearing this news tonight. >> it's a terrible tragedy. it's unthinkable that in france that yet again this year they're having such awful killings. our report is focused on a toxic mix right now in france, that you have the highest population of muslims in europe, the highest populations of jews, you have far right party on the rise, you have refugee crisis, you have a toxic mix, and we've been watching simmering violence and urging the u.s. government and france to work together to urgently address this problem from a human rights perspective. >> so and put another way, when people ask why paris, why did it happen in france, what do you say? >> we say unfortunately, you know, these are trends that we've been watching. you have a muslim community
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there that feels outside of french identity that themselves are suffering hate crimes. you see anti-semitism on the rise and jews in the past year have been leaving france in ever-growing numbers. and you have rhetoric of the far right that is feeding on hatred and stimulating societal anti-semitic and intolerant and xenophobic attitudes. >> and this has worsened in recent years, and why is that? >> we've been tracking it over the past decade but we've seen a significant rise over the past few years. and it's, you know, parallel to economic crisis, the refugee crisis. efforts to counter violent extremism. and within france, too, it's called la icite. it's their version of secularism
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that causes identity issues. what it means to be french. and feeling included and part of society has become an explosive issue. >> what about in countries like germany that have also stepped up during this refugee crisis and they've been able to subsume, it's still going on, a huge population of people on the run? >> we're worried about germany too. some of these trends and having influences coming from the far right 37 and you know, as germany is taking on growing numbers, germany is a country we're worried about. but france, it's interesting that they haven't been taking refugees in the same numbers, and one of the reasons is the refugees believe it to be a climate that is hostile to refugees and, you know, the one place where france is seeing a refugee crisis in calais, it's because they're desperate to get out of france. >> what do you think it means for france? obviously, here we are
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witnessing what happened tonight, looking at this death toll, and we're talking to you about the report we've compiled. what worries you? >> it worries me that these trends are becoming more mainstream. that the far right party is now 25% of the population in the 2014 election. so this is growing from fringe elements and it's becoming something that's gaining more societal traction and that's worrying because it's becoming more entrenched. and the fact that anti-semitic and intolerant attitudes can so quickly erupt into such a tragic violent attack, series of attacks right now in paris is truly, truly alarming. >> well, thank you very much for sharing the result of all your work with us. i'm sure quite earlier than you thought you would be sharing it.
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but also you had reason to study this country and this circumstance for the last ten years. andrea mitchell, it's all very troubling. >> it's very troubling. and the migration crisis, which is reaching a really critical stage as the weather gets worse and worse, the human disaster that that is. and the fact that countries like austria and germany have really stepped up. other countries in the former east bloc have not. this is all coming together. and that's why you have diplomats trying to come up with some solution after five years of civil war. this is just breeding more terrorism, more radicalism. we don't know if this is syrian-bred. it could be yemen and the arabian peninsula. but we just know there's going to be a reaction to this. and the nativist reaction is only going to make it worse. it's a vicious cycle. by the way, there are meetings
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at the u.n. security council. it's not a formal meeting. but i've checked in with several diplomats, the french as well as others, who are gathering at the u.n. tonight. multilateral organizations like the u.n. have failed the world really. there's been a lack of leadership as syria has devolved. we now see libya, we see the spread of isis now, into afghanistan. and the president only 24 hours ago, president obama was saying we are gaining, we're making progress against isis, not that we know that this is isis, but saying that we are making progress against isis. and there's no real evidence on the ground. if you look at beirut, if you look at the claims against russia over the egypt air crash, there's no real evidence of progress. >> for people looking at the pictures and seeing some of these first responders wearing what are in effect head to toe moon suits, it's important to remember these are all forensic
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sites now. so they are looking for trace amounts sadly in some cases of human life, of explosives. they are looking at ballistics. they're looking -- they're dusting for fingerprints. they'll be doing tests for gunpowder and so on and so on. broken glass, shell casings. all of this is yet a massive crime scene. yes, it will be a -- it will be hallowed ground for all the families who've lost loved ones tonight. but that effort is just getting under way at all these various sites in paris tonight. and the man identified as the paris prosecutor, probably roughly translated district attorney, is saying that five terrorists are among the dead.
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still most estimates put the death toll at 120 or higher. we're joined now by malcolm nance. he is a counterintelligence -- counterterrorism expert and the author "an end to al qaeda." mr. nance, would that your title were true. you must find a lot of this sadly familiar tonight. >> it's depressingly familiar. and it's not just with the "charlie hebdo" attacks. we've had mass casualty attacks carried out like this all throughout the world. and we generally don't see the ones or hear about the ones that are happening in iraq, syria, and libya. but we do hear about the ones in mumbai and istanbul and moscow. >> what do you -- what has reverberated to you on the conk of this tonight? we've had various experts on talking about whether this is
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isis or al qaeda or isis and al qaeda working together or al qaeda trying to prove to the world, certainly to europe, that they're still around and a viable force. >> what resonates with me is the fact that isis is just merely al qaeda generation 5. and whether it's isis or whether it's al qaeda this is the exact same ideology. this taqfiri, what they call salafist ideology where they believe they're in a clash of civilizations with the west and that that needs to be brought about in order to have this atok lippettic return of their savior. so i've been on this mission for well over 26 years. so i just find that a mission of this magnitude shows a lot of coordination, a lot of resources. by my count i had had six to seven potential terrorists as it appears right now, at least six. but there could be more.
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and it's not very hard to organize. it's not very hard to execute. it just takes dedicated, committed terrorists who want to create mayhem. and that's exactly what we have here. >> mayhem with kind of a normal, what we've come to expect as normal tools of the trade. ak-47s. bombs and people willing to carry them and blow themselves up. >> absolutely. and the only thing that is different from what you saw tonight that you would see anywhere else throughout the middle east and sub-saharan africa is the fact it was carried out in the heart of paris. and if this is isis or if this is al qaeda it doesn't matter. we've been up against the al qaeda mission right now since 1991. we've been working against isis, which is al qaeda in iraq and syria, with a new generation of fighters since 2006. sought only thing they have done is they've moved their strategic
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battlefront into europe. and we've seen plots that have been foiled. we've seen a couple of plots that have actually been carried out. but right now france is at war, europe is at war. and this battlefront is not going to stop. you know, whether it's isis or not. and i don't believe that these people are coming in with the refugees, and i don't think the migrant crisis has very much to do with this at all. this is a coordinated team of people who may be french citizens, they may be new arrived refugees over the last five or six years. we don't know. but what's most important is they coordinated as a terrorist cell, they train together, they operate together, they manage to infiltrate very sophisticated weapons that aren't commonly seen in europe, and they carried out this attack to kill as many people as they could in france. and they wanted france to have a 9/11 of france, and they now
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have it. >> malcolm nance, sadly, that may be one of the enduring quotes of our coverage tonight. i'm afraid you're right. thank you very much for being with us. ian bremer is also with us tonight. and sadly, we always have to -- seem to be talking to him during times like this. he is an international security expert. he is the director of the eurasia group. and mr. bremer, what stands out to you? >> well, i guess the biggest thing is europe is in a much deeper crisis than it has been at any point since the end of the cold war. the french will show extraordinary resilience and solidarity as a consequence of this. but europe will not. i would argue yes, this is france's 9/11. but also that the social fabric of what it means to be europe is unraveling in front of our eyes. and unfortunately, we're seeing borders being closed.
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this isn't just france. we've seen borders be closed over the course of the last week. the consequences of the refugee crisis, none of this is going to get better. failed states across the middle east. we have record numbers of refugees. we have $40 oil. the economic capability to get these countries back on their feet is not there. and the military and leadership wherewithal to try to create stability in these countries isn't going to happen either. europe is in the face of this. in the united states we can talk about immigrants coming from mexico. that is a reality that unfortunate unfortunately the europeans cannot accept. >> so the words over the door of the national archives read "what is past is prologue." if you're among those of us who believe that what is past is prologue, what are you trying to say and where do you fear this is leading? >> well, i fear that we're going to see, yes, an extraordinary
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resilience on the part of the french citizens and international leaders from all over the world including europe will say the right things, they'll stream to france, they'll light the candles, but there's going to be reaction here. there's going to be enormous populism. you know, brian, over the last eight years we've talked about a two-track europe economically, that there was a core and a periphery, some were doing well, some weren't economically. i fear that going forward we're going to start talking about a two-track europe politically where you'll see increasingly large amounts of xenophobia and populism, you'll see political forces that will become stronger, that are away from the establishment. you're already seeing that in france. they have regional elections coming up next month. i fear that the front national will do quite well in those elections. this is made for that kind of populism. and it's not just there. you'll see it across eastern europe. merkel's extraordinary leadership in saying they'll accept 800,000 refugees a year
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is incredibly unpopular both in many segments of germany society but also across europe. unfortunately the tragedy we're seeing play out on our screens in front of our eyes this evening is really going to feed into what's going to be a very ugly narrative across europe. >> so in other words, it's also the butterfly effect. it happened in the middle east, and we can keep going back to decide what the original spark was, but what we're seeing play out in places like syria is spreading to europe. merkel's about to leave the political scene. and with her will go all her leadership on this issue. and so you're seeing, you're predicting a kind of hardening of the natives versus the new immigrants in more than one nation in europe. >> i guess what i'm saying, brian-s there's a very clear transmission mechanism between europe and the middle east. and during the arab spring it went the other way.
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the europeans had the financial crisis but they no longer had the aid to give to tunisia or egypt or the tourism or the trade or the remittances from those workers in europe. europe was more resilient. but the tunisians and egyptians fell apart. they experienced their revolutions at that point. now these countries are falling apart. the refugees are streaming across borders. only 6% have made it to europe so far. but many, many more. they all want to get to germany. they all want to get to the european continent where they can do better. and my god, we're going to see this transmission mechanism snap back and hit the europeans. that's what i worry about. >> and what about in terms of -- you bifurcated along the lines of violence and the economy. >> yes. i think the economy in europe as we see the growth is barely in positive territory. there's massive amounts of youth unemployment that's hitting most greatly among some of these
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young male population that's are most of the time citizens but they're not integrated into these societies. and yes, the germans have poor demographics. they need more laborers. but the syrian refugees coming over are largely blue-collar, not particularly well educated and they're not going to be welcomed in germany by the citizens or any of these societies. so you're going to have the worsening economics clearly as a backdrop that's going to create much more social instability, much more radicalism on the part of the muslims that are coming over and that are already there and also the populist and xenophobic response from the european citizens themselves. >> how does it end? >> well, one would hope it would end with a recognition is that this is getting so bad that the european countries have to bound together. after 9/11 the united states, we all rallied and we did some things that looking back were excessive and got us into trouble in iraq and afghanistan. but the popularity and the support in the united states for fighting terror was at record
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levels. you're not going to see that coordination among the dozens of countries that are in europe. you're going to see the french say they want a french response. the germans will be very different. the east europe pz will be very different. the brits aren't taking in refugees. they're going to have a referendum whether they even want to stay in the eu. and more broadly, brian, there's also the question of the trans-atlantic relationship which just we're having a president election and we're talking about mexico. we're not talking about europe. we're not talking about what we can and should be doing to help the allies that have been most important for the united states over the course of the past decade both from a security perspective as well as economically. and you have to hope that in our own presidential elections here they're going to start taking up in a much more serious way why europe matters to us and what we're going to do to try to keep these guys on their feet. >> that i would like to see debated in the domestic presidential campaign. mr. bremmer, thank you very much. i'm sorry we kept sow long tonight.
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you've more than made up for it. with what you've injected into our conversation. our thoughts here tonight as we witness this terrible tragedy in paris. as we continue to widen our net to talk to a number of journalists and observers, rachel brown is with us. she's with vice news in paris. rachel, what have you witnessed and what can you add to our conversation? >> well, for me i've been in a hotel where i was staying actually on vacation on rue de rivoli near the rue of orso for a couple of hours here during reports of what was happening across the city. it was very quiet here. hotels were on lockdown. i wasn't actually allowed to leave my hotel until just a few minutes ago. and now i'm noticing outside on rue de rivoli the main street along where the louvre is cars are now driving past again. several police cars are driving past and there's a lot of people
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trying to get cabs to go home. there's a lot of new action. people are coming out and cars are driving by for the first time in a couple hours now. >> so if life was kind of frozen in place there with all these lockdowns, that also means that people who were out for the night, whether they're, you know, groups of u.s. students or tourists or parisians they were kind of frozen in place where they were. >> reporter: definitely. you know, an hour into when the news broke there were, myself included, just people walking home from dinner normally on a friday night and even late toward midnight there were couples still strolling along the street here, you know, as police sirens were going off, as if nothing had happened. so life was very much going on as usual, at least down here. it didn't seem like a lot of people had known what was going on. in a lot of people in the restaurants had no idea what was going on. so yeah, it was a pretty normal
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night here until recently. >> until it happened. rachel browne, thank you very much. we're getting an interesting portrait of all the various parts of life in paris tonight. most of the news, however, is terribly sad, and it may indeed get worse as the light of day dawns across paris and they actually see what has taken place tonight. it appears that they have been the victim of a multifaceted and multipronged almost simultaneous terrorist attack that has taken over 120 lives. many more wounded at several different venues in paris. a bombing that took place at a high-profile soccer game with the president of france in
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attendance, as we've been saying to an american audience, imagine president obama at an nfl -- excuse me, at an nfl game when outside there was the concussion of a blast. and then another and then anoth another. just a few minutes after that a gunman entered a restaurant in a heavily populated section of france and started firing. and almost simultaneously they took over a music venue where an american band was playing, eagles of death metal was playing, a california-based band was playing to a sold-out crowd. that became a hostage situation. and that became really the assassination of over 100 people in the crowd. laura haim all through tonight has been reporting for us. her normal job is white house correspondent for the french
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television network canal plus. laura, what have you learned in the last few minutes? >> it's more than 3:00 in the morning in paris, and people are still awake. of course in the newsroom they're working. they're saying they've never seen something like that. and then the people who are not journalists, the people who are regular citizens of france, especially in paris, are still waking up in total shock. i spoke with some friends, and they're saying we cannot believe it happened, it's our kids who have been killed, who have been horribly killed in another terrorist attack. the people of france have been completely traumatized by what happened with "charlie hebdo" a few months ago, but now it's smal more. you're talking about more than 100 people killed when they were just going to listen to some music on friday night. you're talking about suicide bombers outside paris.
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it's the first time in france it's happening, that you have suicide bombers. you're talking also about people in cold blood coming from the car, going to a restaurant where people with their family had dinner and killing them. it's a very sophisticated terrorist attack. french people tonight want to know who did that and if the people who did that are french or not and what were the motives. >> laura, i don't know if you heard the analysis of ian bremmer a few minutes ago. it was really striking and very worrisome, the way he and others see the future of europe. in the next few months and certainly in the next few years. how worried are you? >> we're all very worried. we're all very worried in france about what's happening. with syria, with afghanistan.
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we're all very worried about the historical movement of displaced people, with the migrants coming to europe. we're all worried about what's happening in africa, in north africa, in tunisia, in morocco, in egypt. everything has changed in the past five or six years in this world. and europe at this moment is terribly suffering. terrible suffering of what isis wants to do. terribly suffering of the foreign fighters. french fighters. it's a very serious problem for the french people. there was in washington, d.c. a few weeks ago, i think it was last week, a meeting between the director of the cia, john brennan, and also the director of the french intelligence. and typically it was at the georgetown university. they were saying that the foreign fighters are going to be the problem and that france has between 400 and 500 foreign
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fighters, meaning most of those people are born in france, they go to afghanistan, they go to iraq, they train, they go to syria, and then through the borders they come back and they commit terrorist attacks. this is a new future, a new dark future for the french society. nobody knows in which direction tonight the story is going to go. >> terrible to hear. and terrible to contemplate for all of europe, to say nothing of what has happened in france tonight. laura, thank you. i know at this point we'll be talking to laura haim again. this is normally the time slot of chris hayes, who's been kind enough to hang around to talk with us. and chris, i've heard at least two experts tonight say perhaps if we're not careful a real conversation about what is happening in europe might just
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break out during the domestic presidential campaign. i'm not sure hopes are high that anything more than what is a sop to the crowd will be spoken, but we may have to start talking about it. >> this is obviously going to play hugely at tomorrow's democratic debate which as far as we know and i believe debbie wasserman schultz has tweeted is still on. it's also going to resonate in the french electionses ian bremmer was noting earlier their regional elections are slated for december. the socialist party of francois hollande was already polling behind the center-right party of sarkozy and the hard right party of le pen. this is going to be a tremendous political, geopolitical cross-roads within france for the political coalition of hondaee as he makes a decision what to do. he said something tonight that struck me and it struck me in how it resonates here in the u.s. he said we will wage war and it will be pitiless, which is i think the kind of sentiment that in the shock, horror, and anger many citizens are looking for. but of course we do not know yet the assailants.
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and if the assailants are, say, isis as many are presuming, though we don't know, france is already bombing isis. they've been involved in syrian air strikes over the past few months. the situation in syria has proven to confound the platitudes that have often been offered in politics, the idea that simply more effort, more will, more strength and more weapons will bring about a solution. and that's been something urged by many different actors across many different political ideologies across the globe, from the iranian regime, which has thrown its weight into defeating isis of course, to france, the u.s. now, turkey, and many other actors in the region. if this does emanate from isis, we have seen a massive expansion of their ability to pull the world into the vortex of conflict, of that arc of territory that they control. and we're going to see that
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front and center in the political debate here in the u.s. and the real question i think as you noted, brian, is are there people who are laying out plans or approaches that have the kind of complexity, sophistication necessary to navigate what has already proven itself to be an almost unsolvable rubik's cube in terms of providing stability and some sense of relief and peace and safety for the region and also all the geopolitical actors. >> chris hayes, couldn't have said it better myself. americans who want to pretend we're not caught up in this. andrea mitchell's here with us as well. that just isn't the case. this is intrinsically tied up in our own politics. >> what's been so fascinating is in the recent republican debate you saw this divide twbetween t branch of the republican party that wants to be more interventionist and the branch of the republican part i why, trump and rand paul, that wants to focus on things at home.
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and the polling indicates that they have the support of the american people. certainly the republican primary voters are more concerned about retrenching at home, the economy and all the other challenges. and this is going to become a national debate in the general election as well. we've seen a number of the candidates tweeting their sympathies and condolences. but by tomorrow night when the democrats, the three remaining democrats gather in des moines, they're going to have to have real responses and you will probably see some differences between bernie sanders and hillary clinton on this point. they've certainly had differences over foreign policy before, iraq being the most important. >> also, as chris hayes just put it in striking detail, look at the succession of local politics this amounts to. what happens in france matters with their next election cycle. and so on and so on and so on. germany a huge question mark. >> germany is a huge question
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mark because so far the extraordinary success politically of angela merkel. but this is a real challenge. and we've seen what happens when france and when germany become challenged domestically and we've seen what happens when right-wing parties rise in strength. this is the biggest challenge to france and to europe, to western europe, the migration crisis in particular, what's happening in syria. and now the terror threat really since the end of the cold war. >> it is a huge matter of importance there. as people have started writing about the merkel era coming to an end, what it means, everything just got more complicated tonight. speaking of world war ii, which is kind of what we've all been batting around here and what people have been harkening back to, this is already being called the worst act of violence in
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france since the end of world war ii. i suppose sadly numerically that's right. >> and that makes it even more profoundly, emotionally disturbing to americans who remember the liberation of paris and all of -- i mean, you and i have been at normandy together and we know how important france is to america and how important what happened on d-day was to the end -- the beginning of the end of that war. we commemorated just a few days ago, among other wars on veterans day. so this is fundamental to america. i should only point out quickly the importance of the european market to us and the fact that open borders and the european union, open borders are essential to the successful economic growth, struggling growth in europe as well as america. they're our markets. we are their partners.
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we are inextricably bound with europe. and the world is not going to be the same. and this all goes back to the arab spring, doesn't it? >> it sure does. and even further some would argue. >> that's exactly right. >> we mentioned facebook. and because so many americans are always in france at any given time, mark zuckerberg has put out a statement tonight. he's saying that this safety check feature is not new to this crisis but they have activated an update having to do with just this paris attack he. zuckerberg says, "my thoughts are with everyone in paris tonight. violence like this has no place. we've activated safety check. so if you're in paris, you can mark yourself safe or check on your friends and family. so that's actually an important feature for so many, and with so many checking on the safety of family and friends tonight.
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the 24-hour cable networks in paris are going at this coverage, where it is coming up on 3:00 in the morning. here we are coming up on the 9:00 hour in the united states. rachel maddow is going to take over our coverage for the next hour. and rachel, just incredible to take a step back and realize what it is we're talking about here tonight, with a death toll north of 120. >> that's right. that's the latest that we've got, brian. you've been -- let me actually just take a moment to commend you for having helmed this for the last five hours plus. this has been a remarkable day and the way this story has evolved over the course of the day it has become deeper and deeper and deeper in terms of the concern. it's been amazing to have you here, sir. >> thank you. >> and i want to thank you for being with us tonight. nights like this i will just say as a personal matter, it is a privilege to have a job like this one, to be able to help share what we know when
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everybody wants so badly to understand what has just happened and unfortunately what may still be under way. what may not be over. it is now just coming up on 9:00 p.m. on the east coast. paris of course is six hours ahead of the u.s. east coast. and so that means it's now 3:00 a.m. in paris. a way to sort of reset. first i'm going to give you the bottom line in terms of what we know and then i'm going to tell you what we know has happened over the course of this evening. the bottom line is this. this is a series of apparently coordinated attacks that hit paris tonight. we have an unconfirmed estimated death toll of approximately 120 killed, although that number may rise or fall as we get more confirmed information from french authorities over the course of the night. these were multiple attacks using bombs and guns and possibly grenades as well. there's also pretty well confirmed although at this point nothing definitively confirmed

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