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tv   MSNBC Live With Jose Diaz- Balart  MSNBC  November 17, 2015 6:00am-8:01am PST

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as we begin the 9 a.m. hour and before we get to jose diaz-balart in paris, let's start you off with the latest terrorist news, it does not originate in paris. it has to do with the downing of
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that russian plane. to tom costello we go. >> two suspects are now being held and questioned in relation to the metro jetliner that crashed. the russian intelligence aegenc is saying definitively that this plane was brought down by a bomb and that russian president vladimir putin is vowing to take vengeance. investigators determined that a homemade bomb containing over a kilogram of explosives brought down the plane. soon after the crash, isis claimed it had brought down the plane.
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within days the u.s. and british government said their intelligence agencies had concluded it was likely a bomb, possibly an inside job. while moscow claims it's attacking isis targets, russian governments said the groups seem to be opposed to the syrian regime. vladimir putin is vowing revenge. >> translator: we should not apply any time limits. we should know them all by name. we will search for them of where. wherever they are hiding. we will find them on any spot on the plan the and punish them. >> the russian warplanes we are told have been striking isis control and command centers in raqqah.
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vladimir putin is telling his generals he wants suggestions on how and where to retaliate on isis. >> let's talk about this activity in the air over syria. to jim miklaszewski we go at the pentagon. good morning. >> good morning. it was no coincidence that the russians launched a massive air strikes against isis targets in raqqah. up until now, russian warplanes have been attacking anti-regime targets in syria, very few isis targets. and it's interesting how this strike came about. the u.s. and russian himself set up a hotline of sorts so that if the u.s. and coalition fighters were going to get anywhere near russian planes or vice versvers they would get on the hotline to
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warn the others to stay out. yesterday the russians called u.s. military officials in iraq and said stay by your phone. it was clear because u.s. surveillance could see a lot of activity at a russian air strip in syria and aboard russian warships in the caspian sea. several hours later we got the call, woor on the attack and russian warplanes from that air strip in syria and cruise missiles fired from the warships in the caspian sea descended upon the isis headquarters and other buildings there in raqqah. the big concern is that the russians are pretty indiscriminate. it's almost blanket bombing. they have no regard for civilian casualties, unlike u.s. and coalition forces. they're doing a bomb damage assessment as we speak. it's not clear exactly what they struck, but there is a lot of
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destruction. the fear, of course, is many civilians may have been killed in the process. >> jim, this confusion over friend or foe prospects -- >> there was some concern so both sides set up this process by which they would pick up a phone and say we're on our way so get out of our way. and according to u.s. officials, it actually worked pretty well yesterday. >> jim miklaszewski on duty as usual at the pentagon. now we go to paris where more raids have been conducted. bill neely, good day. >> reporter: good day to you, brian. 107 homes raided overnight, 16
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arrests and six guns seized. those are raids on the homes of known islamists or radicals or isis supporters but perhaps more significantly, brian, police have raided a hotel just outside paris, two rooms in that hotel on the third floor that they suspected were used by members of the gang that bombed paris. they were booked out, these rooms, in the name of the accomplice who is still on the run, salah abdeslam.
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the eiffel ptower, which was jut reopened yesterday, has been closed given today. authorities wouldn't say why. they simply say it was related to the current situation. yesterday there were thousands of pop on the eiffel tower, paris trying desperately to get back to some sense of normalcy but the eiffel tau are here closed again today, brian. >> sorry to hear about that development. bill neely in paris. chris jansing is in paris where yesterday we saw the arrival of secretary john kerry. chris, good day. >> good day to you. today john kerry met with president hollande. secretary kerry has said that the u.s. is going to enter into an operation with turkey to
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close off what remains of the border with syria that is still controlled by isis. now, at one point isis controlled about 50%. now it's down to about 15%. they're looking to take the remaining 98 kilometers. in addition to that, we know what president hollande wants. he's reached out to the e.u. he want an international coalition to fight isis, but that would also include the united states and russia, bringing together people who have been on opposite sides against obviously syria but also what should happen to president assad. coming out of that meeting, secretary kerry spoke with nbc's lester holt and told him while he was shocked by the violence that happened here in paris, he was not surprised. >> i find that we all know because we are following the threat streams that any individual who wants to strap a
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suicide vest around them can walk into any public event and blow him and herself up and destroy people with them. that's why terrorists are called terrorists, they spread terror and sew fear and terrorize people. we are on the lookout every single day for these plots. >> one more step forward, secretary kerry predicted a cease-fire between syrian forces and opposition could be just weeks away and that would allow for a more coordinated effort against isis. brian? >> and within more component, nor nexus between what u.s. investigators are finding out and defense of the american homeland at the same time. for that we go to our justice correspondent pete williams.
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. good day. >> brian, one of the questions whether the suspects were in contact with people in the u.s. so far no evidence of that. security in the u.s. has been stepped up in major cities. we've seen more security on the subway in washington, d.c., mass transit in many of the big cities, more security at national monuments and national park facilities and routine patrols stepped up in the major cities. a lot of response is what you don't see. for example, a much more intense of scrutiny on the passenger manifest, the list of passengers coming into the u.s. from overseas, especially flights from peararis. the flights haven't been disrupted but a lot more attention being paid to who is on them. and the fbi has had a list of
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suspected isis sympathizers. those have been ratcheted up, lots more eyes on thoses s iuss as the fbi tells their field offices to make sure it's not missing anyone. >> pete, we can confirm the presence of a lot more automatic weapons here on the streets of the city. back offer to paris we go to begin this morning's coverage with jose diaz-balart. good morning. >> thank you, brian. to give you an idea of how the bombing campaign has changed since friday's attacks, the answer is it hasn't. last thursday and friday just before paris was brutally attack, central command launched 15 air strikes. on saturday and sunday after the attacks the number of attacks increased by just one. i want to bring in james woolsey. you said on monday that we have to go after isis where they
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live. what does that mean and how do we do that? >> well, you don't increase your air strikes from 15 to 16. actually, that's double where they were for a long time at 8 a day. when we helped protect the kosovars from being slaughtered by milosevic, we were launching hundreds of sortis a day and in desert storm, thousands. so eight or 16 sortis a day is not just weak, it's ridiculous. it's what "saturday night live" might put on a show about the use of force. of course that's not the only thing we need to do. we need to establish a safe zone, i think, as is now being seriously discussed along the border. we need to work closely and directly with the kurds, especially, but also with other sunni participants with us, such
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as the jordanians. we need to get our armaments that we are shipping over there directly to the kurds and skip going through the iraqi government, which is very corrupt and which takes the weapons and the money and it never gets to the kurds. so there are a number of things we can do in theater that would be far more effective than the kind of fiddling around we're doing now. what we're doing now doesn't even rise to the level of leading from behind. it's sort of fiddling around behind. >> but when you have groups and just in syria alone you have about 1,500 groups operating against the syrian regime, you have isis in there, how do you know where your allies are? how do you know who to help train and who to arm and who to support when you have so many different groups, so many different enemies, all of them fighting against each other, against the regime, who knows what they're fighting but who knows who we can support?
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>> well, you use intelligence wisely, you have sources inside these various groups, you listen in on communications, you sort it out the best you can. but part of this is not not knowing who people are. it's kind of a crazy view of how to restrict military operations. for example, for over a year there have been 150 or so trucks being used by isis to ship oil and they make about $1 million a day off the oil that they ship. we wouldn't have to destroy the oil wells. we could destroy the trucks. and that saves a million dollars a day that otherwise is going to isis. but what have we done? until a few days ago, we didn't bomb the trucks because our view was -- the administration's view was you didn't want to hurt the truck drivers. well, you know, isis truck
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drivers are not at the top of my list of people that we have to protect. certainly using air power, you doesn't want to hit hospitals or schools but the trucks that are making a million dollars a day, what in the world are civilian leaders thinking giving that kind of restriction? >> just in the last 48 hours france has been involved in a bomb campaign mostly in raqqah and now confirming that russia has bombed raqqah overnight and through this morning. what sites are they bombing that we didn't bomb before and why are they bombing them now? >> well, it's a little hard to tell exactly what the target lists were. occasionally it leaks out.
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instead of increasing one sorti a day, as we did in paris, they're doing a lot more. i never thought i would sit in front of a camera and say that the russian president and the french president are providing a model for what the american president ought to be doing, but at least in this particular regard, i think that's the case. >> james woolsey, thank you very much for being with us this morning. i appreciate your time. >> after the break, the migrant crisis and its impact back home. governors of more than half of the united states have come out saying they do not want to allow migrants in their states, including new jersey governor and presidential candidate chris christie. i'll have that next on msnbc. a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary,
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it's just after 3:00 paris time. this morning 26 governors say they are opposed to the idea of syrian refugees coming into the united states or in some cases have directly told the federal government to not place them in their state. all but one are republicans and governors also running for president are weighing in. in september he said he wanted to figure out a way to help. here's what he hold radio host hugh hewitt. >> what if this were orphans under the age of 5. >> hugh, we could come up with 18 different scenarios. i don't think orphans under 5 should be admitted to the united
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states. >> joining me from capitol hill a congresswoman from florida. do governors have the authority to do that? >> no but i think we're saying we don't want to take them in unless they are thoroughly vetted. the united states welcomed your family or my family. but we didn't come to the united states to destroy this country. all it takes is one terrorist to really destroy this otherwise great program. ephs at one of the refugee camps in jordan. i saw when the refugees would come in from syria and you would say i'm joe smith from omaha,
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nebraska and that's how you would be registered. our information, our vetting is on as good as that information on our database. and if you don't have that joe smith registered as a problem g guy, then we cannot thoroughly vet. >> but congresswoman, what leads you or the governor of your state or the other governors to believe that the screening process wouldn't find anybody who could be problem ablleprobl united states? what leads you to believe it isn't going to be thorough enough when there are tens of thousands of people desperately seeking a better life because back home they are being slaughtered? >> good point. two things on that. first, because i believe the fbi director who tells us we cannot
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properly vet every individual because you can't vet them based on information you don't know. with our information limited as it is, we can say this person is okay to come in or not okay to come in but we have very little information. we have to go by what that person says, who he is and where he's from and what his ties are. and if you want to help the refugees, and i do, jose, then you have to get to the root of the problem, which is taking out assad and taking out isis. if you don't take out assad and take out isis, there is going to be a nonstop problem. i've lost communication with you, jose. >> all right. having some trouble there. i apologize as we have lost jose's signal from paris there.
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congresswoman ileana ros lehtinen, then you. for now, a woman seen dangling from a window outside the concert hall. we'll have that story for you next. se, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪
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reconnecting. chaos in the street of the bataclan theater. people pouring from the side door of the concert hall desperate to get away from the horror. the sound of gun fire heard clearly. people seen dragging bodies. a man who appears to have opinion struck in the leg hobbling away from the scene. and hanging from a second story window, sir, sir she says, i'm pregnant. as the woman damageles, slow le inching over to a man above her, the video pans to the scene below. bodies in the door, the sound of more gunshots. as people run from the scene, the sound of their foot steps echo in the streets. again, the woman pleads for help. after nearly two minutes, hands reach out to pull her for
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safety. "i held out my hand" says 34-year-old sebastian. she said she was going to let go. one can't watch someone die before their very eyes. there had already been too much of that. after saving her, the two were separated. over the weekend, this message began making the rounds on twitter, asking for the man to save her life just to say thank you. it didn't take long. a tweet confirming she had found the man and noting that, quote, the rest of the story is theirs. >> we should point out that the woman doesn't want to talk to nbe in in the media. we spoke to a number of people outside the bataclan this morning, which has been opened this morning for people to get close. a lot of people were overcome
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and couldn't get themselves to talk about that picture. >> thank you very much. live from paris the latest on the investigation and the latest on the suspects. we'll go live to capitol hill where lawmakers will get an update about the terror attacks here in paris. we're covering it all here on msnbc. how you doing? hey! how are you? where are we watching the game? you'll see. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running...
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i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary, oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment, and never quit. ♪ you didn't expect this did you? no i didn't. the nissan altima. there's a fun side to every drive. nissan. innovation that excites.
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we are back with special live coverage from paris. here's the latest on the massive manhunt and terrorist investigation. a continent-wide speed continues. french authorities have conducted nearly 300 raids since sunday leading to about 143 arrests, 16 more detained overnight. this morning belgian place say two people are under arrest and
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german police announcing that five people have been arrested in connection with friday's attack. still no sign of salah abdeslam or abdelhamid abaaoud. more now on the latest developments joining me from outside notre dame cathedral, good morning, kelly. >> this was the passport found next to the body of a suicide bomb are outside the french national stadium. the news agency afp is reporting
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today that passport actually belonged to a syrian soldier who was killed several months ago. if that turn out to be the case and it has not been confirmed by nbc news, that would mean we don't yet know the identity of that suicide bomber, though it's confirmed that his fingerprints match fingerprints taken by greek officials. that person definitely did then cross through into europe via a greek island last month. also today, german officials are conducting several raids. they have arrested five people, as you mentioned. we understand at this point it is not believed that salah abdeslam is among them. also another car with belgian license plates reportedly has been found in paris.
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once given police aagain, polict not clear if it is connected to the attacks. french president francois hollande talking with secretary kerry today. kerry said we are gaining ground against isis and isis is loses ground in syria and iraq. today hollande is calling for a global coalition for the u.s. and russia to work together with france to eradicate isis in syria, french warplanes hit raqqah overnight, bombings on a command center and recruitment center and russian air strikes followed after that, the targets of those russian air strikes still unclear. and finally you mentioned it in the lead to me, the eiffel tower still closed today. it reopened briefly last night.
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we're not sure what the situation is, why it has been closed again. security concerns have been raised. in brussels they've cancelled the belgium/spain friendly so soccer match tonight because they're worried about security. that could be an issue but we're not sure yet, jose. >> kelly cobiella, thank you very much. i'm not joined by retired army general jack jacobs. russia stepping up its air campaign against isis. we have this video of vladimir putin talking to military officials in the command center. and french warplanes pounded ice is targets in syria, dropping another 16 bombs on a training post in raqqah. what's going on? is this going to have an impact on isis? >> we hope so. we hope they're pounding isis targets and not discussed what they were doing before, forces
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in opposite to assad. but this morning's revelation, the russian announcement, that they're convinced their airliner was brought down by a bomb, that may change their minds about whether or not they're going to focus on isis or just focus on propping up assad. indeed it makes an opportunity for the united states and russia and perhaps even iran to work in concert to get rid of isis to focus on them, although it's going to require the united states to stop talking about dumping assad and maybe take the russian line that says he's gone but not until we square away the security situation inside syria. so a lot can happen here and we hope it not just eye wash. >> in the last 48 hours france has really been kind of bombing nonstop. we just report now russia is in on it. you say that you hope that they're hitting targets that are
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isis centric but is it possible that france has been bombing unknown targets? they say they've been hitting command and control season tece they've been hitting training cente centers. >> well, they haven't been making up intelligence. but they've been getting intelligence in information, change for the united states. for targeting purposes, we have great satellite imagery and so on. what we lack at the moment is really good information on the ground, human intelligence. if you combine that with the satellite imagery, we can give really good targeting to the french. let me just say they put in 20 air strikes, 40 air strikes. i remember a time when i was in vietnam, i put in 20 air strikes myself in one day. that alone is not going to make it happen. what you really need to do is get rid of isis and because isis
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is focused on controlling terrain, just like a traditional military organization, it's controlling terrain just not knocking off isis fighters, command and control facilities. it's actual control of terrain that really makes a difference and air strikes alone just isn't going to do it, jose. >> colonel jacobs, always a pleasure to see you. thank you for being with me. we expect to hear from paul ryan. luke russert is on capitol hill this morning. luke, is this briefing going to be more about what we know or what we don't know? >> probably about more of what u.s. intelligence officials know, jose. these briefings are not uncommon after terrorist attacks either at home or abroad. there was one after the boston bombings. what will be interesting, though, is what information
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emerges from this briefing. most will be classified. we've already seen from the capitol hill police some measures they want lawmakers to undertake because they feel the capital is a target. driving into work this morning, i noticed much more armament carried by the capitol police. i would imagine there will probably also be a message of, hey, don't walk down the steps all the time, perhaps take the tunnels more. we've sort of seen that message being given by capitol hill police, doesn't mack yourself a target because as a member of congress, you're more vulnerable than most of the population. >> and speak are ryan is getting pressure to stop the u.s. from accepting syrian refugees. what are his options? >> well, this is developing story this week, jose.
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as we know, a lot of those democrat being governors and some republican ones say they do not want to accept the refugees. they do not have the power to limit that, though the the president does. however, they could limit the funds to making it possible to do. i expect he'll get some pressure from the conservative flank of the house gop conference to move legislation that would in fact do it but as of right now ryan has not indicated what direction he will go and if he were to go done that road, it would be a very difficult vote in the as soon as that democrats would say, look, your penalizing orphans and they would take the comments of what chris christie said yesterday, that you're penalizing the innocent for what
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has been done, a terrible terrorist act of a few. >> luke russert, thank you very much. up next, the power of social media and its impact in the wake of the terrorist attacks in paris. you can worry about them. you can even choose a car for them. (mom) honey, are you ok? (child) i'm ok. (announcer vo) love. (mom) we're ok. (announcer vo) it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. across america, people like badominique ...are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes... ...with non-insulin victoza®. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar. but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®.
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people are with chalk showing their solidarity for those who lost their lives just a few yards from here people leave messages, prayers. very close to here is where the 8 people lost their lives. -- 89 people lost their lives. we have just finished doing live right here when the officials, when the police told us to clear out because there could be gunmen on the loose. the police told us that there was a gunman on the loose right here. and you have to take that very seriously, very seriously here. there is a level of tension here.
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people are slowly coming back. >> that was a rumor that started that there was a gunman out here. of course that was a false report. that rumor caused people by the thousands to run from this plaza of independence and toward where i was at the night club where 89 people were shot. after a quick break here from paris, the resilience of parisians and getting back to their new normal. guys, i'll be writing code that helps machines communicate. (interrupting) i just zazzied you. (phone vibrates) look at it! (friends giggle) i can do dogs, hamsters, guinea pigs... you name it. i'm going to transform the way the world works. (proudly) i programmed that hat. and i can do casaba melons. i'll be helping turbines power cities. i put a turbine on a cat. (friends ooh and ahh) i can make hospitals run more efficiently...
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back now from paris where the president has declared a state of emergency for the entire country. for the first time in ten years. the last time was 2005 after the death of two teenage immigrants that sparked riots along the countryside. under the state of emergency, authorities can lock down neighborhoods, conduct searches at any time and close down
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entertainment establishments. joining me now in paris is the foreign editor for the daily beast, christopher dickey. good to see you. talk to me about the new normal here in paris. overnight they've been pretty much putting about 100 people in house detention every night since friday. what is the new normal? >> i think the new normal is an undercurrent of fear. even in january when you had "charlie hebdo," that terrible incident where all these people at the satirical magazine were slaughtered and people at the kosher supermarket were slaughtered. still, there is an idea that's them, that's somebody else, maybe there was a special vendetta against them. these attacks were in cafes right around here a few hundreds yards from here, at a concert hall. that's all of us. that's those people you see behind us in the square and this undercurrent of fear that exists now is based on the idea that these people can strike any time, anywhere with no targeting that's discerning.
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just purely to sow terror. >> the president said he wouldn't be surprised if there are further attacks in the near future. >> not only would they not be surprised, they pretty much expect it. they have been expecting other attacks even since "charlie hebdo." but since this one and especially if you -- given the picture that's emerging of the so-called islamic state striking out in so many directions at once, in turkey a huge attack. blowing up a russian airliner. attacking hezbollah headquarters in lebanon. and now this. who knows where they're going to strike next. they want us to be worried about that be with and we would be fools if we were not. >> and it is changing their tactic. they are changing their tactic. it seemed that for the first couple of years it was about gaining and controlling land mass. right? >> well, it was. but you know, when president obama said in that unfortunate quotation that they were contained, that isis was contained, he was talking about the land mass.
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they are being squeezed and they're being squeezed badly from every direction in terms of their desire to have a controlled land mass, a state, as they declare it. but that doesn't mean that they're contained in the sense that they won't carry out terrorist activities, which is exactly what they're doing. >> what is different from al qaeda, other groups that have tried, some cases succeeded, but it seems as though they're able to attack in a much more large-scale and different places at the same time. >> jose, it's also generational. it's also what they try to do. i mean in the early part of the last decade, al qaeda didn't want to do anything that would be less than 9/11. so attempts to blow up the subway, things like that, they backed off for a long time. these guys, they don't care if it's really spectacular. they just want to kill a bunch of people. they know they'll get the publicity and once the isis name is attached to it, then it will be huge publicity. >> christopher, how different it
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is that in this case, for example, very likely they were french citizens, people even born here or in belgium. that's a different, also, reality when you have such easy transportation between countries here. >> well, absolutely. the people who are leading the so-called islamic state, they are scary smart. they know how to manipulate these kids. they know how to take losers from a slum in brussels and telling them they're going to be heroes, telling them they're going to go to paradise, tell them that they're going to on media all over the world and seduce them with those lines. >> christopher dick ey, good to see you, my friend. much more live from the french capital after the break. we are learning this morning it was in fact a bomb that brought down the russian airliner on halloween. we'll get the latest on that investigation. plus one day after paris' most famous landmark re-opened to tourists, it's closed, yet again. french officials only say it is
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brian williams with you here. as we start off this hour from msnbc headquarters in new york, the lead story has to do with military action in the skies over syria. for that to the pentagon we go. nbc's jim miklaszewski. jim, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, brian. within hours of the announcement from russia, that it was a terrorist bomb that brought down that russian airliner over the sinai, russian warplanes and cruise missiles launched what the u.s. military is calling massive air strikes against isis targets in syria. according to the russians themselves, they fired 34 cruise
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missiles. they flew 127 sorties against 2 -- 266 targets. they say there is more air power striking at isis targets now. after all the russians have been pretty much attacking only the threat to regime targets there in syria. but now they're going after isis in the wake of the bombing -- or the takedown of that airline over sinai. but again it is a double-edged sword because while the u.s. welcomes the additional air strikes, they're very much concerned about the fact that the russians are very is d indiscriminate in their bombing. u.s. officials say, sure, they'll take out a lot of isis targets, but many of the isis equipment and headquarters are located in neighborhoods, next to hospitals, in exto schools, because they know the u.s. and coalition aircraft will not attack them there. that's not the case with the
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russians. the u.s. is doing a bomb damage assessment as we speak to determine exactly what was struck, what was destroyed. and, unfortunately, what the civilian casualty count may be in these strikes. >> jim miklaszewski at the pentagon, thanks. across the atlantic we go to paris where the investigation is moving along. bill neely standing by for us again there. bill. zbl >> reporter: yes, good morning, brian. as well as french and russian air strikes in syria, other kinds of raids here. french police raiding homes of isis supporters and known radicals here. 107 raids overnight. 16 arrests. six guns seized. that means in the last 48 hours we've had almost 300 raids by french police. but perhaps even more significant than that, french police have searched two hotel rooms on the third floor of a
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hotel just outside paris. rooms that are believed to have been used by the killers before the massers can. now interestingly, in those rooms which they searched, they found syringes. not clear what those were used for. but sometimes liquid inside syringes are used as an accelerant and explosives. so police have taken those objects away in that hotel search. that search is now finished. one other note which just goes to show the level of security and anxiety here, the eiffel tower, one of paris' famous landmarks, which was re-opened yesterday after these attacks, was closed again today, officials saying it is due to the security situation. >> bill neely in paris, bill, thanks. as we have been reporting, the attacks had hardly stopped when the first french investigators on their own took off toward belgium and keir simmons is in a section of brussels for us this morning.
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keir, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, brian. and this is suburb of belgium where they believe that many of those suspects came from. one of them, as you mentioned, now on the run. he was living here before the attack and they think he came back here and a belgian judicial source now says that they believe that he was in paris, that two people from here traveled to paris to get him, and then bring him back over the border and that was the morning after the attacks. yesterday we saw commandos, police commandos, close off a street and go house to house searching for him, we now know. there was snipers on the roof. witnesses heard gunfire, and yet they did not find him. the simple truth is, brian, they do not know where he is. this man you could describe as perhaps the most wanted man in europe. he may well be a long way from here now.
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>> keir simmons in a section of brussels, thanks. back to paris we go where the u.s. secretary of state arrived late yesterday as we've been saying, the nexus of kind of sadness and diplomacy and where this moves from here. nbc's chris jansing is there on the visit of john kerry. chris, good morning. >> reporter: good morning. the meet being between john kerry and president hollande, several things came out of it. afterwards we heard from secretary kerry that the u.s. is about to go into an operation with turkey to close that border with syria. at one point a huge portion of it was controlled by isis. now that remaining 15% is going to be the target, about 98 kilometers. so that is new here. in addition, he's very optimistic there is going to be a cease-fire within syria that would open the way for what france is really looking for,
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and that is an international coalition that could come together to fight isis and that would include both president obama and vladimir putin, and toward that end, john kerry confirmed that vladimir putin would be meeting in moscow with hollande on thanksgiving day. american thanksgiving day. two days before that next tuesday, meeting with president obama in washington. take a listen. >> president hollande will be visiting washington in a week. the presidents will meet. we'll have further discussions. but we are absolutely committed to increasing our efforts in every degree possible and thoughtfully, carefully. >> reporter: so they will be looking at that relationship. in the meantime, john kerry was also asked about a lot of push-back in the united states against refugees and calls by many governors to no longer allow syrian refugees to come
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into their state. his response was we shouldn't go off half-cocked, we should look into this very carefully and he spent a lot of time with nbc detailing what many consider to be the most extensive vetting process for any refugees in the world, which are the refugees that come into the united states from syria, brian. >> chris jansing from from paris where it is just after 4:00 in the afternoon. we note a light rain is falling again today. chris, thanks. >> reporter: just started. that is our look at the breaking news at the to. of this hour. now back to jose diaz-balart in. jose. >> brian, thank you very much. one of the fascinating aspects of the investigation is that the man believed to be the linchpin of the massacre in paris is well known. he's actually popped up on the terrorist radar a couple of times this year alone, beginning just after the "charlie hebdo" attacks here in paris. msnbc's rachel maddow has more on this. >> reporter: the alleged ringleader of the belgian terrorist cell that planned the follow-on attack against police
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in belgium a week after the "charlie hebdo" attack, he's the guy that apparently escaped the hail of gunfire police raided on that terrorist kr el in january. in february he turns up talking about it. in april the same guy is also a named suspect as the brains behind the operation of the world's stupidest terrorist who called 911 on himself after shooting himself accidentally before he ever made it to the church he wanted to attack in paris. that was in april. then in august the same guy is also a named suspect in the guns and knives high-speed train attack that was thwarted by those three brave american heroes. january, february, april, august, and now in november french police tell the associated press and "the new york times" that that same, same guy, is believed to be the mastermind of friday night's terrorist attacks in paris that have claimed at last count 129 lives. one guy. linked to all of those incide e incidence, all in the space of a year.
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and if that proves to be true, would that be a good sign or would that be a bad sign that the person that directed this cell of attackers in was someone who is that much on the radar of western intelligence agencies. is that good because western intelligence agencies apparently have their finger on the pulse and they know who the important bad guys are? or is that terrible news because even somebody that high-profile is still this operational. >> a former cia counterterrorism analyst and vice president at the center for intelligence policy joins me. i'll let you answer rachel's question. is this a good thing that we know this guy so well, or is it a bad thing that he was still able to apparently help launch this devastating attack? >> well, it's kind of a one hand on the other hand kind of situation. on one hand, yes, it is excellent that we know this person. we have a certain level of granular knowledge about this person, about what he looks like, about where he comes and
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goes and potentially where he lives. but on the other hand, it's obviously that we haven't been able to take him off the battlefield. remember just last week we took out mr. jihadi john in a drone strike in downtown raqqa. he made a mistake or somebody made a mistake and we were able to target and kill him basically. this individual is probably a lot smarter around he's somebody who obviously everybody's searching for, both in yirp and also in the streets of syria. whether we can actually touch him, that remains to be seen but he is going to be a person that is going to be rising to the top of the hit list for almost everybody in charge. >> secretary of state john kerry said today that he was not surprised that isis' level of capability. then went on to say that basically anyone who wants to strap on a suicide vest can spread terror. is this an accurate depiction of what happened here or is he underestimating what it took to
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pull this off? >> well, remember that we had several attackers in hitting six different targets using suicide vests and using certain high-powered weaponry. now your average person doesn't actually know how to create a suits vest so that took a certain amount of sophistication to build and deploy. in terms of personnel, you can find people who are willing to die and that's unfortunate, but that's just the way the world is. it requires intelligence services and the law enforcement communities to sort of come together and really crackdown on these individuals. but the fact that it was directed from syria and it was a syria-based plot makes this quite a different plot than some person walking in with a gun and shooting up a cafe or a church. >> then there's the issue of the weaponry. the vests i guess you could concoct in any number of places, but for example, the ak-47s, the
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automatic weapons, here in france it is not exactly easy to have access to these weapons. it is apparently easier in belgium. talk to me about the fact that it is so easy to go between eu countries without any kind of security issues when you have a place that you can probably find weapons easier than you can in places like france. >> right. it's, as you said, it is actually relatively difficult for regular people to get firearms in most of europe. but remember that you have have the bualkan wars in the 1990s. there are millions and millions of unsecured weapons still floating around. from are sophisticated arms trafficking communities, working in europe. and if you wanted to actually pick up -- this is according to euro po europol, by the way. if you want to pick up certain weapons you can get it for anywhere between 300 and 700 euros. talking $400 to $800 at this point.
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belgium is unfortunately a hotbed for these arms traffickers. >> thank you very much. i want to go right now to washington, d.c., speaker rirn and t ryan and the house gop leadership calling a news conference. >> it is clear this was an act of war and america needs leadership. the national defense bill which i will sign later today requires the president to come up with a plan for defeating isis, not just containing but defeating isis. a containment plan is not enough. that has failed. in addition, the majority leader and our committee chairs are developing a plan to address the syrian refugee crisis. our nation has always been welcoming. but we cannot let terrorists take advantage of our compassion. this is a moment where it's better to be safe than to be sorry so we think the prudent, the responsible thing, is to take a pause in this particular aspect of this refugee program in order to verify that terrorists are not trying to infiltrate the refugee
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population. in the end, the ultimate solution to this crisis is a strategy to defeat isis. all of this rises above politics. this is not about politics. this is about national security. and so we will invite all of our colleagues, republicans and democrats, to work with us quickly to address the urgent nature of this situation. >> i would like to add to the condolences from the house to the innocent victims of paris. they were attacked because of their way of life. >> -- into the united states of america. we have so much more ahead on this special hour of msnbc live from. breaking details as we get them on the hunt for terrorists linked to friday's attacks. and at home, a growing list of governors expressing fears about terrorism. now up tho 26 taking action to prevent syrian my grants and
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following paresthe paris at, 26 u.s. governors is a i they won't accept syrian refugees in their states. chris christie and john kasich are running for president. former arkansas governor mike huckabee says housing refugees is not worth risking national security. here he is earlier on "morning joe." >> if you bought a five-pound bag of peanuts and you into you that in the five-pound bag of peanuts there were about ten peanuts that were deadly poisonous, would feed them to your kids? the answer is no. if we're going to help these refugees, why don't we do it in an area closer to where they are
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being refugees from? >> reporter: nbc's sarah dallof is in baton rouge where louisiana governor bobby jindal says he will not accept syrian refugees. >> reporter: jose, now as you mentioned, some 26 governors, some of whom are saying they want to put the refugee resettlement program on pause while it is reviewed, others saying they are taking steps to block the resettlement of syrian refugees in their states entirely. governor bobby jindal issued an executive order yesterday saying his state will take no refugees. he cited security concerns, specifically mentioning the attacks in paris. already the state has accepted 14 refugees despite rumors on message boards and social media yesterday that louisiana has taken in thousands. the number is actually 14. the majority of whom are located
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in the new orleans area. the state department is saying the vetting process for syrian refugees is stricter and more stringent than for any other nationality. the state department says they'll share some of that process with states in hopes of alleviating some of these concerns. as for blocking refugees from entering states and whether it is even legal, the state department says that's something they are looking into. but at least one legal animal cy analyst tell nbc news states cannot block admission to a federal state after of federal government has granted it. >> sarah dallof in baton rouge, louisiana. steve kornacki is here for more on the political angle of all of this. >> good morning, jose. yes, this has become the major sort of domestic political debate that's sprung up in the wake of those paris attacks. there actually have been some syrian migrants who have already been resettled in the united
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states before the obama administration made this promise to take more. where are they in this country right now? these are some of the top six areas. l.a., riverside, california, chicago, detroit, new york, allentown, pennsylvania. about 1,800 have been taken in across the country since 2012. now take a look at what the states are doing right now in terms of will the governors take these refugees or will they refuse them. the green states, these are governors who have now come out and said in the last two days, yes, we want these refugees, we will take them in our states. solid red, these are governors who are saying no, we don't want them. and in many cases they are saying not only do we note want them, prewill resist by any means at our disposal, we will resist having these migrants in you are our state. the stripes are the of goers g
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who have sent mixed signals. what the new hampshire governor hasn't said is what she'll do if the administration goes forward and implements the plan, will she fight it, or will she just say i'm against it but my hands are tied here. so we don't know. what's interesting about this map, you look at all the states that are red that are saying no, all of the ones that are green saying yes, compare it to this. the red/blue map of governors. basically this has become a partisan issue. red states are states that have republican governors. so many of these states are the states that are saying no to refugees. the blue states, so many of them are the states that are saying yes to refugees. the other thing we can show you is in one of these key red states right now, this issue has become the defining issue of the last week of the governor's race. david vitter bogged down by a prostitution scandal a few years ago. he's running for louisiana governor. he's making this issue the opposition to allowing these refugees into louisiana the
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centerpiece of his campaign. he's launched a nasty, negative attack ad against john edwards. the key question is for all the governors saying they won't allow the refugees in, is that even legal? we send it over to nbc's chief legal correspondent, ari melber. >> thank you very much. steve. as we report on this, along with so many of our colleagues in paris where people have stared down this purdue and evil. it is understandable most people look at this as a legal federal question, that immigration refugee status is up to the federal government, not the states and wonder whether this is just a political waste of time and one that's unfortunate given real challenges ahead of us. that said, there's certainly nothing unreasonable for a policy perspective about questioning in the wake of a major terror attack that involved immigration, that involved the movement of people over borders, whether we're getting that right and whether we want to err on the side of
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extra security. having said that, the federal law impressed in here could not be clearer. governor simply don't have the power to override admissions decisions made by the federal government. in this case the issue numerically is relatively small. something on the order of just 1,000 or 2,000 syrian refugees to date and the notion of potentially up to 10,000 under the president's plan. but what we've seen from some governors -- not all, but some governors is a suggestion is that how folks who are admitted to the united states, that they wouldn't be welcome in those countries. legally that's not how it works. if you are admitted legally to the united states as an immigrant or a refugee, you obviously, like any legal resident, have freedom of movement. that is to say, there's no legal way for a governor to say this individual is banned from a certain state based on their nationality or frankly anything else. it would take some extra legal status, some criminal prosecution, for example, a suspect in a crime, a vaccine type quarantine situation, emergency powers with be those
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are the things we social with a governor potentially playing a role in restricting a legal resident's movement. legally that's not really on the table, jose. ultimately the big question on policy is whether this many policymakers, whatever party they may be in, are going to have an influence on the national debate where people in congress, which is federal, may have interplay with the president and change some of this and that would be legitimate. as a legal analyst looking at this, i am a little disappointed that the politicians are spending so much time on an aspect of this that they know to be less relevant than the big challenges ahead which is what do we do about these murderous terrorists, how do we want to contain them abroad and make sure they don't get here in a more serious way. but that's the way. back to you. >> ari, very quickly, once they are accepted into the united states and you referred to this just a second ago, once they are allowed in to the united states of america, they are free to go anywhere because it is not a temporary thing. right, ari? >> that's right. that would be true whether you
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admit someone because they are going to become a citizen or because any are a resident or because they are a refugee. again, one of the things that is unfortunate about this and has a legal component is, united states for a very long time has tried to take certain refugees precisely because they are the victims of our enemies. the victims of terrorists or brutal regimes, the victims of the very people that we want to fight and stop. so as long as you do that correctly, you are on the right side, at least according to u.s. law and policy, which is creating a space for those people. if you create that space federally, that is the whole u.s. that's not overridden. it is understandable folks want to make sure that's secure. in essence though, that security component is not a new part of this debate. that goes back to our founding. >> ari melber, thank you very much. up next, we're learning much more about the victims of friday's attacks here in paris and not just 129 who died, but those with incredible stories of survival. what's next on this special hour of msnbc, live from paris.
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because the salad there is always served with the original hidden valley ranch. we are hearing more and more stories of survival and true heroism this morning in the face of the terrorist attacks. nbc's erica hill is here in paris with the incredible story of a pregnant woman who was rescued outside of the bataclan theater. >> reporter: jose, good morning to you. we are here outside the bataclan. this all unfolded just behind me on the side streets. it runs along the side of the bataclan building. you may have seen this picture of a woman who appeared to be hanging from a window ledge. well, that woman was actually pregnant, we learned, and she had been hanging there calling for help. we saw some of the video. there's about three minutes of video that was taken by someone who works for the newspaper here
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and which has now been made available to us. it is heartwrenching to watch. she is hanging there saying very calmly, please, please, help me, i'm pregnant, there are other people that said they thought they could hear her asking for someone to catch her. you also have to look at the rest of the video what was happening on the ground below her. bodies underneath her were spilling out of the door. people were running dragging bodies. a man appeared to have been shot in the leg hobbling along. at one point you hear her ask again, please, please, we see arms come out of the window and start to pull her up. that got a lot of attention. a tweet was sent out on her behalf asking if someone could just help her, make a connection with that person that saved her life. that did happen very quickly thanks to social media. that gentleman has identified himself as sebastian, a 34-year-old man. he gave an interview on french radio and also to a french paper where he said he heard her and he heard her crying and asking for help and he said i couldn't just leave somebody there to die in front of my eyes.
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i had already seen too much of that. he brought her back inside. they were separated at that point. he wasn't sure what had happened to her but this tweet eventually made it to him and the last news that we had from him, he gave this interview to french radio. said after that he didn't want to do anymore press. she does not want to dofully more press but he said in the interview i listen to this morning that he had the number and they were going to have the chance to connect and speak with one another. she simply wanted to say thank you. >> what an incredible story. erica hill, thank you very much. up next, two men behind bars and the paris attackers, however, one of them apparently still on the run. the other is the alleged linchpin of the operation. they're now believed to be in syria. an update on that manhunt next. plus, a look at how the united states is ramping up homeland security. how you doing? hey! how are you? where are we watching the game?
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msnbc's live coverage of the paris terror attacks continues. i'm jose diaz-balart reporting again from paris this morning. we have new video from russian officials who say warplanes have fired cruise missiles on isis targets in syria following russia confirming a bomb brought down its jetliner over egypt. russian president vladimir putin was updated in a briefing from defense officials in the command center. we also have this new video of the continuing terror dragnet set up in paris, its suburbs and all around europe. french authorities have conducted nearly 300 raids since sunday leading to about 143 arrests with 16 more detained overnight. also this morning, belgian police say two people are under arrest and german police have arrested five people in connection with friday's attacks. still, however, no sign of suspected attacker the two
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suspects. this morning we are learning authorities believe the two brothers rented hotels rooms in the paris suburb just days before the attacks. this video coming in to us just in the past hour. more now on the latest developments. joining me now from outside notre dame cathedral, nbc news correspondent kelly cobiella. >> reporter: good morning, jose. we're learning that 117 of the victims have now been identified and just to show you the global reach of this terror attack, 17 different nationalities among the victims. and the same can be said that global reach for the investigation as well. two men arrested in belgium over the weekend in fact have now been charged in connection to the paris attacks. they are not believed to have been directly involved. they're suspected of having
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helped salah abdelslam. the news agency here is reporting today that a passport found next to a body belonged to a syrian soldier that was killed several months ago. if that's the case, we don't have an i.d. on that particular suicide bomber but we do still know that he entered europe through greece. his fingerprints match. jose, back to you. >> kelly cobiella, thank you very much. the terror attacks here in paris are raising anxiety back home with concerns that isis terrorists might try to slip in to the u.s. as refugees. as we've been rt ro ieporting, governors in at least 26 states now oppose the idea of syrian refugees coming in to their states. i'm joined by the senior director of refugee protection with human rights first. thank you, eleanor, for being with me.
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>> my pleasure. >> can you understand why some governors are concerned the possibility of isis terrorists can be disguising themselves as refugees and then coming into the united states? >> the refugee system is actually an incredibly thorough an rigorous process. i think there's maybe not enough information about how thorough that is. the refugees are interview in person by department of homeland security officers. a barrage of security checks are conducted by the department of defense, the fbi, department of homeland security, even u.s. intelligence agencies are involved. >> so let's talk about the possibility that one of the bombers here came through the island of lesbos in greece, and whoever he was -- it's still not been confirmed -- was able to pass through as thousands of people have done and continue to do almost on a daily basis from syria and other countries into
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europe. that was not thoroughly vetted, or are they different in the united states as far as how they vet those that could be coming in? >> the refugees that are going to be resettled to the united states come through a very different process. they are interviewed thoroughly abroad. all of the security checks are conducted while they are still overseas. we will pea see what kind of information comes out in the coming days but these processes are incredibly -- very, very different. >> eleanor, thank you for being with me. i appreciate your time this morning. >> my pleasure. thank you. more now on the military response. joining me now, msnbc military analyst retired army general barry mccaffrey. russia's stepping up its campaign against isis now. we have new video from the russian military showing air strikes in syria. france bombing isis for a second day. will this have any impact on the fight against isis? >> well, probably.
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these aircraft are somewhat indiscriminate. the can't use air power super effective unless you've got people on the ground. but a bit of me, jose, backing off this says poor syria, my god, they're being bombed by everybody. the coalition, the russians, the syrian air force dropping barrel bombs on civilian targets. what a tragedy. chaotic. no end to it. one wonders why we don't put significant amount of resources into stabilizing refugee populations inside jordan and turkey instead of just focusing on the military dimension. >> well, what do you do. >> i mean jordan is really overrun with refugees. turkey is certainly seeing its share and has geopolitical considerations of its own right now. but how do you deal with this? it just seems as though as you underline, general, that the situation is not getting any
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better. on the contrary, it's getting worse for everyone in syria. >> well, we're not going to do safe areas inside syria. that would require extensive coalition ground and air forces. not going to happen. but you know, at the height of the iraq and afghanistan wars we were spending more than $10 billion a month fighting those conflicts. so i think it's a huge failure on the part of the european union in particular, but also united states to not focus on significant resources into jordan and turkey to stabilize the populations in place where they can go back home whether this cruel conflict is eventually over. why would we haul them all over the world as refugees rather than supporting them in place? >> general barry mccaffrey, thank you for being with me this morning. >> good to be with you, jose. more special coverage live from paris when we come back.
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welcome back to msnbc. i'm frances rivera in new york. of course we'll get back to jose diaz-balart in paris in just a moment. but first we are following some other developing stories. in minnesota at least 51 people have been arrested following a second day of protests in minneapolis over the shooting of a black man by a police officer. crowds took to the streets after 24-year-old jamar clark who was suspected in an assault was shot in a scuffle with officers on sunday. clark's family says that he was taken off life support last night. the mayor of minneapolis has asked for a federal civil rights investigation into that shooting. developing out west, parts of colorado are seeing blizzard conditions leading to hundreds of canceled flights at denver international airport. some areas could see up to a foot and a half of snow with wind gusts exceeding 50 miles an hour. blizzard warnings have also been issued for parts of kansas and
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nebraska. just east of there, a severe weather outbreak unleashed at least 20 tornadoes in four states, including this twister caught on camera in greenfield, kansas. texas was hit especially hard with a mile-wide tornado striking just south of tampa destroying an oil and gas facility and raising concerns about radioactive material stored there. actor charlie sheen making a very personal announcement on the "today" show this morning revealing to the world he is hiv positive. tamron hall joins me now with more on this. certainly we have heard headlines from charlie sheen over the past years but nothing like this. >> for the past few weeks a number of tabloids revealed there was an a-list hollywood star that would soon reveal he was hiv positive. speculation was all over the place, and today charlie sheen sat down with matt lauer of the "today" show saying the diagnosis was a turning point in
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his life and he decided to go public to stop a smear campaign and extortion efforts by a number of people. but there are also some very serious legal questions that still linger. first, take a look at what he said this morning on "today." >> i'm here to admit that i am in fact hiv positive. and i have to put a stop to this onslaught, this barrage of attacks and of subtruths and very harmful and mercurial stories that are about threatening the health of so many others which couldn't be farther from the truth. >> how long have you known about this? when you were you diagnosed? >> roughly four years ago. yeah. it started with what i thought based on this series of cluster headaches and insane migraines and sweating the bed completely
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drenched two, three nights in a row that i was emergency hospitalized. i thought i had a brain tumor. i thought it was over. after battery of tests, spinal taps, all that crap, they walk in the room and said, boom. here's what's going on. >> if you look at the cdc website and they talk about the transmission of the -- of hiv, they talk about risky behaviors. would it be fair to say that you have been involved in all of those risky behaviors? >> negative. you talking about needles, that whole mess? no. definitely not. >> do you know how you contracted the virus? >> sitting here today? not entirely. no. >> you told me that a lot of people have actually demanded money to stay silent about this. >> that is true. yeah. yeah. i have paid those people. not that many. but enough to where it is depleted the future -- >> how many people have you
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paid? >> geez, i don't want to guess wrong, but enough to bring it into the millions. >> there are a lot of legal questions right now. specifically charlie sheen says that he is bracing himself for lawsuits that will likely follow when you look at the disclosure that he's been hiv positive for four years and who he may have come in contact with. here's what he had to say about that. >> you've also been extremely sexually active in that period of time. do you expect a lot of lawsuits to be leveled in your direction? >> i mean i would be predicting the future and assuming the worst. i can only imagine based on what i've already experienced, what's already come down the pike, and i've been forced to deal with, i'm sure that's next. sure. >> what about criminal charges? in 35 states if you are someone who is hiv positive and you have sex with someone else without divulging it, you can be charged
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with a crime. >> right. but if you -- no, okay. this i completely understand. i completely respect that. but having divulged it, is the reason i'm in the mess that i'm in. >> charlie sheen but having rev the mess i'm in. >> he's been undergoing treatments for hiv since that diagnosis. he takes about four pills a day. he says that the virus is un undedetectivable in his blood. he said he believes the hiv virus is less of a threat to charlie, the bigger threat to charlie sheen at this point is his battle with substance abuse. he said he's not used drugs but he's still drinking. the bigger picture is what could he face legally if the details that he revealed to matt are not completely true? >> sow has those worries when it comes to his health, when it comes to legally also it seems like there are members of the inner circle who have used this information and turned it against him. >> he told matt a story that a woman he hired for his
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companionship went into his bathroom and photographed the medicine prescribed for his hiv and threatened to make this public. he's gone through $10 million in less than four years paying off people to keep the secret that ultimately he was forced to reveal today. >> appreciate it, thank you very much. >> we return to hoe day jose di w. a look at isis not just from the air and ground. we'll show you how important cyber warfare is to dismantling the terrorist network. some cash back cards love to overcomplicate things.
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we have new details on how intelligence sources believe 21st century terrorists communicate. it's not by traditional mobile
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phone, msnbc cal perry is in new york. how do they compete? >> they commute from the dark web. you need a layer of extra security to communicate. the other thing that is happening in cyberspace is a cyber war. they are threatening isis online. they're threatening to dump their twitter accounts and threatening to take care of things digitally. this message that was directed at isis says, "we are responding. these attacks cannot remain unpunished. we're going to launch the biggest operation ever against you. kme expect sib area tacks. war is declared and be ready." 5,000 twitter accounts associated with isis have been made public. the accounts are being shut down by twitter. one more thing i want to throw at you, isis has a 24-hour i.t. desk. there is from analysts telling
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nbc news a 24-hour i.t. desk to try to fend off these very digital attacks. >> cal perry, thank you very much. and that wraps up this hour of msnbc live from paris. thank you for the privilege of your time. continuing coverage continues right here on msnbc. ♪ so jill, i know the markets have taken a hit lately. mm hmm. just wanted to touch base. how did edward jones come to manage over $800 billion dollars in assets? huh. okay. here's our latest market outlook. two things that i'd like to point out... through face time when you really need it. so that's interesting, you know we had spoken about that before. it's how edward jones makes sense of investing.
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and good day. we begin the 11:00 a.m. hour here in the east. all signals still pointing to belgium as the investigation continues. nbc has been covering from there. good day, kier. >> brian, good day to you. the man they are hunting, probably the most wanted man in europe. his family live in this very square. the question is where is he now?
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we now know from the belgium federal sources he was driven, they believe, by two people in a car. they drove from here to paris. for the last few days they've been searching for hichlt yesterday they closed off a street. police went from house-to-house. there were snipers on the roof. some witnesses heard gunfire. but they did not find him. and so now the question is whether he is here or whether he is further afield. at the same time, the man they're describing as the linchpin of this whole operation, now in syria with isis. he came from this area, too. we're beginning to get a picture of this group. some of them, of course, now have died in that attack including ibrahim who we've been speaking, to


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