tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC November 18, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PST
options. i've said it before. if he's still up in november, why do we think he won't be up in february or june. trump is still there at the top. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. a"all in with chris hayes" stars right now. good evening from paris. i'm chris hayes. a massive raid in a northern suburb here has quite possibly disrupted san entire terrorist cell in the wake of friday's attack, with at least two more suspects dead and eight more arrests, we will get to that in a moment. first, nbc news has learned there's a new isis video that headaches a reference to new york's times square. there is no details or plans of a plot. and it's important to know that survey of times square has been used by isis before. senior law enforcement officials say there is no new specific threat information to new york. they are aware of isis images with videos of times square, one source called it more propaganda from isis.
joining me now, malcolm mance. your reaction to this? >> well, certainly i have strong reactions to the raid that was carried out today by french forces. it was an intelligence success and it was a ground combat direct action success. however, we did see some components of isis, which hadn't been present before. use of female suicide bombers outside of iraq and syria. they're very prevalent in iraq and syria, but not out in the west. on the other hand, they did a very, very slick propaganda production today, and it's really interesting how they play very quickly upon our fears, by putting out this video, using the live feed from the president of france, president hollande. french warships and then bringing out isis members who are from france, to speak and then showing how to do a suicide bombing plays very quickly into the psyche of the population
today and that's why we have people afraid of something that actually wasn't present in the video, and that was a direct threat to the united states. >> yeah, i mean, we've got to be clear here. obviously, isis has, for the last 20 months, at least, two years, put out a string of propaganda. there was a picture of the white house at one point. there was someone speaking english, saying we're coming for you, barack obama. i mean, a huge part of what they are trying to do right now is create this sense, right, of this kind of unstoppable force across the world and these videos are intended to make americans scared. >> absolutely. everything they do, from the way they do their terrific comb terroristic combat, which we call terror shock value, tsv, by beheading their victim base and attacking in an asymmetric fashion in a way you wouldn't expect it. and they have the kaft to
maximize that effect by using these advanced modern propaganda techniques, turning them around very quickly in very slick packages and getting them into the mainstream media and then you, again, you multiply the terror effect. and the media is a willing host for that. >> the media is a willing host? >> yes, absolutely. as a matter of fact, that video was really not intended towards the french populous. if you noticed that there was only one french speaker inside it. and everyone else was an arab speaker. they showed a couple of videos, clips of a former french soldier doing tactical training. but, for the most part, it was intended for the consumption of the international news media. and the fact that they used a piece of stock footage, video footage, and, you know, in a scenario that was oriented towards the people of france, and it happened to be times square, doesn't necessarily mean that they're coming after the united states. their ideology is so virulent, they will come and strike
wherever they have the opportunity. so you don't have to worry about specific threats. >> yeah, i mean, it strikes me that no one in the american intelligence community, no one in the nypd or the fbi has any illusions about the desire of isis to strike in major american cities, if they had the capacity. that is not putting anyone on notice. >> no, it's not putting anyone on notice. and more importantly, and i try to make this point every time i talk about isis, isis is the fifth generation of al qaeda. we have already been struck by people who were followers of this ideology. what you just now have is you just now have a younger, faster generation, with much more sophisticated propaganda techniques, and who have absolutely no qualms about operating as a tight, tactical team, and using whatever weapons that they have in hand to create mayhem. and right now, they've moved their battle space into europe.
it has yet to come to the united states. but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen. but don't wait for a specific threat. the threat is emerging as it stands. >> all right. malcolm mance, thank you very much. appreciate it. >> it's my pleasure. last night in the paris suburb of saint-denis, at about 4:30 a.m. local time, special police forces and soldiers cordoned off the immediate vicinity and commenced a raid in which the gun battle alone lasted almost an hour. police firing more than 5,000 rounds of ammunition. according to french prosecutor, who briefed the press today. at least two people were killed. one of them a woman, as mr. mance just mentioned, who set off an explosive vest, and a second individual is not yet identified. authorities trying to ascertain if it could be the suspected ring leader of friday's the attack, abdelhamid abaaoud. eight more suspects were arrested. police said the raid was so intense, the build was at risk of collapse and the investigation of the site is
still undergoing. also today, according to the press, a jewish schoolteacher in marseille was stabbed by three assailants on wednesday evening. reports indicate the attackers uttered anti-semitic phrases and declared themselves isis supporters while knifing the teacher, whose injuries are reported as nonlife-threatening. also today in the islamic state magazine, isis claimed to have brought down that russian jetliner with an improvised bomb. it posted a picture of the materials it claimed to use. joining me now with the latest on the raid, nbc news correspondent, keir simmons. and keir, a lot of questions about just who was in that building. what do we know so far? >> reporter: a lot of questions, chris. and the thing we don't know is whether abdelhamid abaaoud was in that building. he being described as the linchpin, the man behind the attacks. the man who intelligence services thought was in syria with isis, until it emerged today that this whole siege was aimed at trying to get him on
this third floor apartment, where the french officials believe that he was. now, just to take you through the scale of that siege, there were 110 police officers, as you mentioned, 5,000 rounds were fired. it began at 4:20 local time. that's just after 10:00 eastern. the main events, if you like, took place through 7:00, so from about 7:03, there was shooting intermittently. one person was killed inside the flat. that, of course, we believe would be the woman who set off a suicide vest, who you mentioned earlier. then there are multiple explosions at around 7:20. by 7:40, residents are being told to stay inside. many of them have been inside, terrified, as this played out over a number of hours. and then, finally, at 9:00, prosecutors announced the arrest of three men inside the flat and a number of others outside and the police announced the operation was over by 11:00.
so, it was a sustained siege with police and a cell that the french prosecutor now says believes were preparing to launch another attack, presumably in paris, quite soon, it seems. it seems like the french officials, based on intercepts, intelligence, they thought they needed to move quickly. those intercepts may well have been abboud's cousin, who is the woman who killed herself at the beginning. it's phone calls between him and a relative, that seems to have tipped off the officials that, in fact, a new attack was being planned and that they needed to move quickly. but again, they had hoped that they might get abboud in this siege right now. they are saying he is not amongst those who have been apprehended. and they don't know whether he is the man who was killed during
that siege. >> all right. keir simmons, thank you very much. the ongoing hysteria in the u.s. over syrian refugees has brought a sharp response from president obama during a trip to the philippines. >> we are not well-served when, in response to a terrorist attack, we descend into fear and panic. when candidates say, we want to admit 3-year-old orphans, that's political posturing. and i would add, by the way, these are the same folks oftentimes who suggest that they're so tough that just talking to putin or staring down isil or using some additional rhetoric somehow is going to solve the problems out there. but, apparently, they're scared of widows and orphans, coming into the united states of america, as part of our transition of compassion. first, they were worried about the press being too tough on them during debates, now they're worried about 3-year-old
orphans. that doesn't sound very tough to me. >> senator ted cruz, who was one of the republican presidential candidates to which president obama appeared to be referring responded today. >> let me suggest something, mr. president. if you want to insult me, you can do it overseas, you can do it in turkey, you can do it in foreign countries, but i would encourage you, mr. president, come back and insult me to my face. let's have a debate on syrian refugees right now. we can do it anywhere you want. i would prefer it in the united states and not overseas, where you're making the insults. >> the president was in the philippines, not in turkey, we should note. today, donald trump returning to his theme the president is incompetent and the screening of refugees inadequate proceeded with this -- >> is obama now a threat to america's national security? >> i think he's a threat to our country. i mean, he must have some kind of a thing going, because you know, when you see that he won't even call them by their name, attack after attack after attack and it's always the same thing,
it's hatred. it's hatred. and it is exactly that. it's radical islamic terrorism. >> and today the democratic mayor of roanoke, virginia, invoked japanese internment camps of world war ii as a model in a statement he put out calling on suspension of rutter refugee assistance, mayor david bowers wrote, "i'm reminded that president franklin d. roosevelt felt compelled to sequester foreign japanese nationals after pearl harbor. it appears the threat of harm to america from isis now is just as real and serious as that from our enemies then." joining me now, tommy vitor. tommy, a lot of people were not happy with the president's remarks in the last two days, his defense of his isis strategy, his remarks about fear and panic that he's striking the wrong tone. what do you say to those folks? >> i'd say, you know, i worked for him for seven years.
i recognize a very angry president obama. and i don't think he used any political back and forth with ted cruz or anyone else, although cruz gamely made himself the story here. it's that the rhetoric out of people like cruz, out of chris christie, out of jeb bush, saying bring in only christians, no syrians should be allowed in, plays into the black and white world, the sort of propaganda that isis is trying to create, that helps them recruit. that leads them to believe that they're this us versus them mentality. and really, these people are making his job harder. his job of keeping the american people safe harder. and that's why he was so upset today. >> there's been a tremendous amount of attention paid to the syrian refugees, zit the fact, and i have to say this, every time it comes up, there is no definitive link to actual syrian refugees and the attackers. all of them identified so far have been eu nationals, a single passport that was clearly faked. we don't know the full story of the body attached to that passport. so that has to be very clear whenever we talk about them. that said, the coverage and the
rhetoric from the republicans particularly, the polling out today, 56 disapprove of increasing incoming refugees. 41% approve. white house issuing a veto threat for a vote to slow or pause the process. is the president on the wrong side of the politics of this? >> he very well may be. and i think this is the challenge. is when, you know, in the wake of an event like this, where everyone is terrified and you just want government to do something, you know, people seize on these issues, that don't necessarily solve the problem. you saw this after ebola. everyone said, shut down the airports, stop flights from africa, health experts said that could actually exacerbate the problem. but it didn't stop people from putting forward these ideas that are simplistic in nature, but don't actually fix the underlying challenge. so, again, i think dealing with isil is going to be a long -- a years' long process, and a big part of that will be a strategic communications effort to try to integrate muslim communities that don't feel a part of france or the united states or feel
disaffected and are more susceptible to isis propaganda. but when you talk about christians should only be allowed in, i think it exacerbates that problem in an enormous way. >> someone -- i was reading someone who talked about, you know, there's a famous line, i think it was in a ryan lizza piece, about the foreign policy guideline for the obama administration being, don't do stupid stuff, not saying "stuff." it seems there are these moments where there's massive demagoguery, there's backlash, the president playing this kind of calm, let's don't lose our heads. is there something unsatisfying about that to the american populous? >> yeah, i think that it's absolutely right, chris. and i think he doesn't like sort of the politics of, you know, saying something to make us just feel good. i think he understands that there's a moment of healing that he, as president, can provide after incidents like this. you've seen him do this many times in newtown or a number of sort of major addresses he's given. but, you know, i think these
sort of, the idea you can defeat iran or defeat isil or deal with any of these great challenges by using more adjectives and talking tougher is not actually true. what it's going to take is a concerted effort that brings together the international community, including, you know, the gulf arab states, a number of muslim communities, and when we use this sort of rhetoric, it actually divides those coalitions that we really feed to succeed. >> all right, tommy vietor, thank you very much. >> thanks, chris. much more from paris ahead, including more on the messy fight over syrian refugees in america. a republican candidate for president with the last name of bush suggesting we put boots on the ground in syria. and later, my interview with the former journalist with "charlie hebdo" on her reaction to the awful events of this week. i'm here at my house, on thanksgiving day and i have a massive heart attack right in my driveway. the doctor put me on a bayer aspirin regimen. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. go talk to your doctor.
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earlier, i was in saint-denis, i had the chance to speak with the deputy mayor, who told me how his morning began. >> translator: this morning, around 4:30, i was woken up by a neighbor's phone call. a friend of mine who told me she could hear gunshots and explosions. so i called the mayor and went outside to see what was going on. >> did you know, rather quickly, what this meant, what was happening? >> translator: the amplitude of the attack, the violence, made me think straight away that it was linked to the situation with the terrorists. to the time as well. it was very early, 4:00. it's not a normal hour for police assaults. >> are you surprised that they were -- this group of people were just a few blocks from city hall in saint-denis? >> translator: of course, we're surprised. nothing can make us believe that this could happen. as we speak, we do not have the identities of these people.
it seems they arrived yesterday, but still, all needs to be confirmed by the authorities. but of course, we're surprised. >> for americans that are just learning of saint-denis, because the stadium or what happened today, what do you want people to know about this place? >> translator: we are a big town in the north of paris. we are a popular town, we are a big town. we are over 80 to 100 different nationalities. we're modest people. we are multicultural, as you say. there are people of all origins that live rather well together. >> do you think what's happened will threaten that multiculturalism? >> translator: today, we're facing a terrorism situation. today was a police action against the terrorists that took place in saint-denis. it doesn't question the
diversity and our willing and the pleasure we have of living together. >> my great thanks to the deputy mayor of saint-denis. coming up in the u.s., an ugly backlash towards refugees grows, with one political leader bringing up the specter of internment camps. that's ahead. as developed our most revolutionary feature yet. a car that can see trouble... ...and stop itself to avoid it. when the insurance institute for highway safety tested front crash prevention nobody beat subaru models with eyesight. not honda. not ford or any other brand. subaru eyesight. an extra set of eyes, every time you drive. theand to help you accelerate,. we've created a new company... one totally focused on what's next for your business. the true partnership where people,technology and ideas push everyone forward.
accelerating innovation. accelerating transformation. accelerating next. hewlett packard enterprise. >> you suggested that there might be mosques in america that need to be shut down. >> well, you have to do something. they're coming out of -- some bad things are happening. and a lot of them are happening in the mosques. and you'll have to do something. nobody wants to shut down religious institutions or anything, but, you know, you understand it. a lot of people understand it. we're going to have no choice. there's absolutely no choice.
>> that was donald trump on fox news last night. this was the scene literally the scene at the trump rally in massachusetts last night. protesters stood up shouting, donald trump is a racist. a man was booed by the raucous crowd, grabbed there by the back, pulled to the ground, as you can see, and escorted out. all the backlash rhetoric in the u.s. in the wake of the attacks here in paris grows increasingly harsh, today french president hollande joined with president obama in standing by plans to allow refugees to settle in his country, with hollande saying he will welcome 30,000 over the next two years, despite growing anti-refugee sentiment that we're seeing manifested in the states. tonight, we're seeing some of the real-world consequences of that sentiment in the u.s. in tennessee, a top gop lawmaker called for the national guard to round up any syrian refugees who have recently settled in the state and forcibly remove them. in virginia, the democratic mayor of roanoke made a positive
reference to japanese internment camps, and indiana governor mike pence turned away two syrian refugees who had been preparing to live in his state. the democratic connecticut governor dannel malloy met today with one of the families, a shopkeeper, his wife, and 5-year-old son who have been living as refugees for four years and offered them a home in his state. >> i told them that people in the united states are generous and good people, but sometimes things happen elsewhere that cause people to forget about their generosity and to forget about their native warmth and spirit. but that will return to the rest of people in due course. they know that they've been diverted. they know that they were unwelcome in another state and, you know, we're not in a position to take everybody from
syria. but connecticut should take its share. >> joining me now, democratic representative, andre carson of indiana, one of two muslims serving in the u.s. congress. representative carson, your response to your governor, mike pence's actions, in essentially blocking the door for these people that are trying to get some safety. >> well, i certainly agree with governor pence, who is also my former congressional colleague, with regard to this matter. look, there are serious national security concerns that we have to take into consideration, without question. i can tell you, as someone who is a former law enforcement officer, who has worked in an intelligence fusion center, keeping our country safe is a tremendous task, not only for law enforcement officers, but for mayors, governors, and certainly the president. what we're seeing now is the syrian refugee crisis being used as a justification for
xenophobia,ophobia and all kinds of destructive phobias you can see. what we have to do is deal with the threat at hand. a group claiming to represent islam, that is not representing islam, is killing people in the name of religion. we need folks of goodwill, be they christian, jewish, muslim, sikh, hindu, along with our law enforcement and intelligence communities, to pose a global united front to eliminate this terrorist threat. >> what's your response when you hear a presidential candidate like donald trump, who's a front-runner in the republican field, talk that, you know, maybe you might have to close down mosques in the u.s.? >> well, maybe -- you know, that same kind of conversation, i think, is unacceptable. if we look at the scores of folks who claim to represent christianity, decades ago, who were affiliated with the ku klux klan, when they were bombing
churches, and killing african-americans. no one thought it was sensible enough to close all churches in our country. i think that we have to look at our candidates for president. those who really are seeking to become commander in chief and effectively the ceo of our nation, they have to understand that this is a shared enterprise. and a part of that shared enterprise means that we have to recognize the over 8 million muslims who are part of the fabric of our society, who have been here since the inception of our great nation, where you have muslim judges, my father-in-law happens to be the first muslim judge in the country. you have police officers, you have lawyers, you have engineers. you have muslims in our intelligence communities who are fighting to keep our countries safe each and every day. and any person who claims they want to represent our country should really consider what is at stake. >> there's going to be a vote tomorrow to essentially put -- stop the refugee program. they say pause, but it will have
the effect of stopping it. the white house has issued a veto threat. what is your position on that piece of legislation? >> well, i think that the screening process is very rigorous. it takes 18 to 24 months. it's under review from the state department to the fbi. and other intelligence and law enforcement agencies. it's a very rigorous process. we cannot allow politicians who are elected by the people to use this incident. our heart goes out to those folks who are impacted in france and other places across the globe, to make this as a rallying cry to promote an already-destructive agenda that is rooted in xenophobia. we are a nation built on the backs of immigrants. and for us to abandon our principles, all for the sake of a few political points, to me, puts us at the hand of the american people next year for them to make a decision about the kind of representation they
really want in congress. >> representative andre carson, thank you for your time. >> an honor, thank. joining me now, french tunisian human rights activist, samiana, with the foundation for ethnic understanding. and i'm really curious your reaction to what the political conversation here in france has been in the aftermath. because in the u.s., it is focused very intensely on the syrian refugees and then you have people talking about mosques and you won't say radical islam. what has the conversation been like here? >> the conversation seems terrible and horrify, a attack that we had friday, is much more about terrorism. it's much more about thinking of the roots of radicalization in our country, but we do have also some kind of right-wing politicians singling out the muslim community. at the same time, i think there was a great resilience, a great sense of unity among how french citizens and including muslim
condemning the terrorists attack the blind violence that targeted the most vibrant and the most diverse part of our national community. >> i know you've done work in sort of french, muslim, and jewish relations here. france, the european country with the highest jewish population and muslim population. horrible news out of marseille today, with a stabbing of a jewish teacher by three youths who appear to have been shouting anti-semitic slogans. >> yes. >> what do you -- how much is that boiling beneath the surface here? >> i mean, there was just after "charlie hebdo" and the attack, finally we understand that there was a worrying discussion about anti-semitism and islam phobia in france and an internalization between joous and muslims. and there was a momentum when people understood it was high time for us to think and ponder and think and act and bring about change between muslims and jews in france, but among all citizens, it's a time of unity,
after "charlie hebdo," it was a time of unity. i think we should continue on this path of unity, of bringing people of all faiths, jews, muslim, christian, agnostic to work together. i have assigned myself with 40 organization and people from civil societies, jews, muslims, christians, later on a daily newspaper called "we are together." and i think this is the most that we want to deliver to the country. i think if there is a clash today, it's not a clash between islam and the west, it's more a clash between those full of hatred and who want to divide us and us seeking for peace and mutual understanding, and i have chose my path and i think i have a great sense of belonging to this country, and i think that all the french citizens will continue on this path, hopefully. >> last thing, the syrian refugees have been the issue that american politicians have
focused on. my sense of consuming french media is that that has not been a real focus in the wake of the attacks here. i think it was a debate on september. we had a huge crisis on september, and we had hundreds and thousands of people in the city of paris, throughout paris, skperp with thinking about this issue and we were debating. but today is not an issue, because we have understood that the terrorist attack came from homegrown people. they came from us. >> french and belgium nationals. >> exactly. they are european. and this issue is not an issue about syria or middle eastern, it's really an issue about countries that need to target against the roots of this phenomenon. >> samia, thank you so much. next, i had a chance to visit saint-denis earlier today. i had the chance to speak with a few local residents about what they heard and saw and that's next.
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>> yes. >> translator: what did you see? >> 4:00, 4:30 in the morning, was getting ready to go to work, and when i heard the shots, i though, it, will be difficult to go to work. >> when you heard the shots fired, did you realize what was happening immediately? >> yes, i looked o out the window and police said, you can't look out the window. >> do you feel surprised? >> you feel that it will be war,
that this is now permanent? this is how it will go on? >> those are just a few of the people i spoke to earlier with help from our interpreter in saint-denis. coming up, jeb bush is calling for ground troops to fight isis. an iraq war veteran weighs in. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary, oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment, and never quit. ♪ you didn't expect this did you? no i didn't. the nissan altima. there's a fun side to every drive. nissan. innovation that excites.
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while air power is essential, it cannot bring the results we seek. the united states, in conjunction with our nato allies, and more arab partners, will need to increase our presence on the ground. >> the obama administration has dispatched thousands of troops to iraq to train iraqi forces and sent a small contingent of special operator troops into syria. president obama has been wary of having u.s. ground troops engage in direct combat against isis. a new nbc news poll today found that 65% of americans now support sending additional ground troops to fight isis in iraq and syria with 31% opposed. as politico reported yesterday, military leaders are dubious of the bigger number, but one senior official saying, we can kill a lot of them, maybe all of them, we can probably convince some of them to quit and embrace a more moderate view, but if that is all we do, we will be back here again. joining me now, chairman john schwartz who served two tours in
iraq. as someone who served two tours in iraq, your reaction to jeb bush's speech? >> i thought the speech was limited. just throwing ground troops in the war against isis doesn't really tell us what you want to do. i think that's par for the course for a lot of the republican candidates. ben carson still thinks, for instance, that there's chinese troops in syria. i would have hoped that jeb bush would have articulated, you know, how many troops we needed. what is our position with bashar al assad. you can't really talk about iraq without talking about syria. the situation on the ground in syria is very complicated. so throwing our troops in like that and allowing them to be a part of this conversation without any strategic framework as to how we would use them or how many is putting the horse before the carriage. >> i was talking to someone the other day whose son had served in iraq during the insurgency there and, you know, he was saying this, that if american ground troops were to enter the syrian war, which is one of the most complicate battlefields or probably the most complicated, a significant u.s. presence would almost immediately probably unite all factions against it.
>> that's what happened in iraq. i mean, when i left iraq in 2011, we were fighting insurgents in northern iraq, who had come over from the syrian side, many of which were the sunni insurgents that now fight bashar al assad. and when i was in baghdad, they were rocking our bases with iranian-made rockets. if we went into syria, i think that's the big framework that i would have hoped that jeb bush would have articulated today. what do we do with our relationship with bashar al assad. is it our policy that once we were to wipe out isis, that we would continue to topple the regime. on the assad side, you have iran, russia, and he has bow la, and you have the saudis supporting the opposition movement. so, essentially, everybody would unite against us in syria, much like they did in iraq. unless we can somehow do what john kerry's talking about, which is bring the russians and the iranians to the table, which the turks and the saudis and try to create a post framework in syria. but without that conversation, he's absolutely right.
everybody in syria will try to kill u.s. troops. >> there's indications that there has been some movement towards some type of temporary cease-fire today, some factions agreeing to a cease-fire in syria. that crossed today. but john, the polling that shows now that americans have been in poll after poll, very wary, very reluctant to send american troops back into war in the middle easily. this poll today really caught me by surprise, i have to say, given the tenor of the political rhetoric and the media coverage of the last four days, perhaps not surprising, your reaction to that poll? >> i'm disappointed, you know, by the polling and i understand people are scared, but in reality right now, the way the situation is in iraq and syria, you know, for instance, in iraq alone, the iraqi army has never conducted offensive combat operations. so we can go in there retake, you know, basically huge footprints of the country. the mosul sector, the tikrit sector, the anbar sector. we can occupy that land. it would take thousands and
thousands of troops to do this. reinstall the iraqi army, and we're back to where we were in 2012. i don't think people understand when they're talking about putting troops back in the region, you know, we're basically back to where we started from, which is stuck there. and it's endless war for this country and we've got to be more sophisticated than just throwing our troops back into the middle of the region. but when people want war, unfortunately, politicians give it to him. >> john saltz, thank you very much. >> thank. earlier this year, two gunmen targeted the office of satirical magazine, "charlie hebdo," killing 12 people. ahead, i'll talk about someone who worked at the magazine about the aftermath and the latest issue.
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just over ten months ago, two armed men forced themselves into the offices of the french satirical magazine, "charlie hebdo," killing 12 people and injuring 11 others, the two brothers responsible for the attack, radicalized french-born muslims, they continued publishing. this week, "charlie hebdo" released its first issue since last friday's deadly attack. the cover reading, quote, they have weapons, f them, we have champagne." that second line is blurred, because it contains an expletive. earlier today, i spoke with a journalist who formerly wrote for "charlie hebdo." i started by asking her what the last several months have been like since the death of her friends and colleagues. >> a lot of adversity. and i would tell you that it's not only that we have to, of course, try to recover from the sadness and, yeah, really sad of losing a lot of fantastic people there and missing them.
but also that we have to fight so hard to defend their memories, to defend what "charlie hebdo" against propaganda against misunderstandings. >> the latest cover is sort of instantly iconic with someone drinking champagne and, you know, the champagne coming out of bullet holes, and it says, you know, they have guns, screw it, we have champagne. >> yeah. this is exactly "charlie hebdo" and this is exactly what we feel. strangely sad and strangely proud of what we are. because we love to live in paris, we love to drink champagne, we love to be exactly the opposite of isis. >> so i wonder how you see this playing out, particularly in the context of the hard right and the france national, that you have basically spent your whole career railing against. >> and yes, and we are, of course, very, very concerned about how some radicals can
explode this massacre, of course, always. actually, we are living with these two fears. all the time, together. the fear of being attacked and killed by the islamists and the fear of being used by some parties. but the way to fight both is really to, very focused, explain and explain, that of course we have to do something. we cannot -- we cannot just say, don't hear, it's okay, it will go away. no, it won't go away. we know that we are probably ten years of attacks in front of us, if we don't do something about isis in syria, but more than that, because it's not only a war, it would be too simple if it was a war. it's even more than a war, actually. it's a fight against the movement with recruiting amongst u.s. >> then, what is the answer
here? i mean, obviously, there are very intense social strains. there's a kind of combination in france of a group that is, you know, from a different ethnic background, religious background, and also relatively socioeconomically deprived, right? all of those things sort of running together, as the background context for that kind of recruitment. >> what is true is that we are facing a big challenge, because, why? because we have high, high level of muslims in france. far more than in my countries. the huge majority of them are secular, they, of course, have nothing to do with the crazy killers. but as their -- they are not only muslims, it's very important, they are coming from arab countries. it's not like them in england. it's not like many of the muslims of usa. they are coming from arab background.
and because of the path to france, they don't decide then, not, of course, but many more propaganda, who say that france is islamophobic, and this is because they feel that france is islampho islamphobic, but this is where we don't have to turn that game into plate, because honestly, we are one of the country where the quality, of course, it's not perfect, but show me a country where it is. >> do you think that we will see, you know, it can be sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy on both sides, this is what i'm hearing from you, when people say that upholding this tradition of secularism amounts to discrimination of muslims and people start to believe that, right? and at the same time, you have in the wake of the attacks, people, demagogues who want to essentially say, all the muslims of france are a fifth column. they need to be treated harshly, we need to change our laws, we
need to crack down and close them off. those two kinds of sentiments -- >> they sort of reinforce each other. >> they are fueling each other, of course. and this is why it's so important to sort of defend the secular leftist balance way to see. we want to live together. we're not going to excuse everything. we are not going to say that terrorism, it's okay, because it's just a way to fight against discrimination. and it is so important to say that, because we don't want to let the national france and the extreme right appear to bes the only one who have solutions, who are standing in front of the fear. but if those attacks continue, in europe, every month, of course, in ten years, we will have a fascist europe, of course. because people will lose their nerve. they will lose patience.
and this is why it's a problem on earth, the democrats. i mean, the democrats are not -- the people from the right wing or the left ring, but the people who believe that we have something very strong in front of those, that we stand up. that we say, there is other way to fight. rike, continue to love. like "charlie hebdo." like drinking, like being free. >> we'll be right back with more on the ground in paris and i'll tell you what struck me about the difference between the reaction here and in the states.
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it's been striking here the last few days to compare the french discussion in the aftermath of the horrific attacks with the american discussion. in france, there has been very little focus on the refugee crisis, though it's been a huge political debate for months and months and months here. that's because as of now, all of the assailants have been identified as french or belgium or eu nationals. i think that the french have the feeling there's not just some faucet they can turn off and the people who did this were french or belgium or european and had passports and citizenship and the problem is much more complex. there's a lot of talk about fighting isis in syria, but none of the focus on the syrian refugees we see in the states. in the states, on the other hand, all of the focus has been on the syrian refugees, despite the fact that the u.s. is removed by an ocean and a long bureaucratic process from the tens and hundreds of thousands of refugees that have been streaming from the middle east up into europe. you know, sometimes in the wake
of a crisis or a tragedy, people say, something must be done, and this is something. and therefore, it must be done. and it's that kind of reasoning, frankly, that has gotten us into some of the most destructive debacles recent memory. let's not forget that in the wake of the anger and grief people naturally feel at the hands of the mass slaughter that's happened in the streets in paris here. that is "all in" for this evening, live from paris. "the rachel maddow show" starts now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thank you, my friend. it's really good to have you there. thanks to you at home as well for joining us this hour. you cannot take liquids in any significant quantity onboard a passenger aircraft anymore. you know this, right? you have to put any liquids or gels in teeny tiny little containers. and you can't bring on board a large number of those teeny tiny little containers. the total amount of liquid and the size of the containers that all your liquids have to be in, it's very tightly