tv Lockup Sacramento Extended Stay MSNBC November 21, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PST
like the one before. how long are you going to imagine being buried alive? due it mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. >> deputies respond to a possible gang beating inside a cell. but outside the view of surveillance cameras. >> it appears there's a physical altercation that's transpiring at this time. you can see the bodies jerking
back and forth. >> the inmates say it was nothing. >> it was just rough housing, that's all. >> that's for children. >> but one sergeant isn't so sure. >> we know that these individuals are gang members. this may have been a new recruit to this gang, getting jumped in. >> a wounded warrior now faces a whole new battle. >> they said i stabbed one guy ten times. >> stop at the red line. turn and face the wall. >> arrested with him, is his girlfriend. but will jail tear them apart. >> it feels like his lawyers are trying to put it on me.
just a mile from the state capitol building in sacramento, california, it could be mistaken for just another office, instead of open cubicles, you'll only find locked cells inside the main branch of the sacramento county jail system. of the 2,000 men and women incarcerated here, about 60% are only charged with crimes. and are awaiting trial and the resolution of their cases. the downtown branch is one of two jails run by the sacramento county sheriffs office. it's also the primary booking facility where officers from 13 different law enforcement agencies bring new arrestees. >> turn right, face the wall. >> probably every day, we process between 100 to 200 bodies coming through here a day. >> leave your hands by your side. >> i prefer working on the booking area. it's unpredictable. we have every walk of life come through here every day.
>> the two newest arrivals, ryan and his girlfriend ariel putter. >> miss potter. >> their arrests are the result of a dispute they say was with potter's ex-boyfriend following an exchange of angry text messages. sobel said he and potter arranged to meet the ex-boyfriend in person to work it out. but were attacked by him and four of his friends. >> i ended up grabbing a knife that the guy had. and they were all jumping on me and in self-defense you know, start swinging both of my arms and i had a knife in my hand. >> there's so much going on. i don't even know when this knife thing even happened. >> but there's blood all over the place. >> you turn right here. take a seat on the bench. >> they said i stabbed one guy ten times.
and it was just such chaos. it was like a four-minute brawl. and then we got out of there. >> he has a big black eye and his pinkie is cut down to the bone twice. they called the cops saying my boyfriend was the one that brought the knife when it was actually them that brought the knife. >> sobel and potter admit to fleeing the scene after the fight. but the others immediately called police. none of them was placed under arrest and according to police reports two of them suffered stab wounds and were transported to the hospital. >> did you guys ever call the cops after this incident? >> no. >> why not? >> i don't know. i think he was scared that this was going to happen. i think he was scared that we were going to get arrested, so he didn't call. >> stand right here, face the computer. keep your left hand by your side. >> police searched the area, arrested the couple a few hours later. they have yet to receive their official charges from the arresting officers. >> sometime when people get booked into the jail, there's an
investigation that goes on beforehand. throughout the investigation if the officers aren't sure exactly what they're going to charge them for, they're not going to tell them that they're going to charge them with one thing because sometimes things change during the course of the investigation. >> potter, once spent a night in jail on conviction for writing bad checks. but this is sobel's first time in. >> put your hand there. >> what's wrong with your hand? >> it's all wait down to the bone. >> there's two knife cuts all the way to the bone. >> he's been a perfect citizen. this is the first time he's ever been here. >> he's actually a veteran. >> sobel is not only a veteran, he's a purple heart recipient. he was in the army for two and a half years. when he was nearly killed bay roadside bomb in afghanistan. >> they rebuilt my entire mouth and everything. it's all safe.
i'm 100% disabled from the military. with a roadside bomb. i'm now retired. >> now sobel has a new trauma to deal with his charges have just come through and they're serious. >> these are your charges. >> looking at intent to murder. assault with a deadly weapon and conspiracy. because of the charges, don't have a bail release, you're going to stay here for two days, see a judge for miranda, he will tell you if you can bail out or be held for trial, okay? understand? >> attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon. and conspiracy. what happens what do i do? i don't even know what do i do.
i'm not this person. attempted murder? [ bleep ] are you kidding me? i don't get it. am i allowed to know what ariel's charges are? are they going to be the same as mine because she was there? >> she hasn't been fully booked yet. we'll find them out shortly. >> am i allowed to know that? >> no. this is your paperwork. first door on your right. >> attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, and conspiracy. >> when you get arrested, the detectives or the investigators, whoever is working that case, determine whether or not there's probable cause that crime was committed. they've obviously determined that, because that's why you're here. all the information and facts they've collected, goes over to the d.a.'s office and now the d.a.'s office decides whether or not they're going to formally
press charges against you for these charges. if they do, then you'll be arraigned before a judge. if they decide there's not enough evidence, in this case, then they may drop the charges. >> what's the next step? >> now that you've been booked, you're going to be dressed in. they're going to take your clothes, give you the jail clothes, take you up to the seventh floor. where you'll be classified. you'll stay there, they'll give awe cell, and a bad and you'll see a judge and you'll be possibly formally arraigned within the next 48-72 hours. >> all the way to the window on the right. take off all your clothes. everything in the brown bag. shoes, socks, underwear, everything, please. >> completely naked, everything in the bag. >> turn around. put your right foot so i can see the bottom of it.
left foot, please. spread your feet wide apart. bend over at the waist, reach back with both hands, pull your butt cheeks apart, and cough twice. >> bend forward at your waist, reach behind you, pull your butt cheeks apart, cough hard three times. >> what's it like wearing this uniform? >> it's horrible. everybody staring at me in the [ bleep ] windows like they want to [ bleep ] kick my ass or something. >> what do you mean? >> like the mexicans and the [ bleep ] over there. >> take your hands and put them inside the waist band at the front. >> go down to the yellow line. >> stop at the red line. turn and face the wall. >> right now you're standing in the position of safety. if a fight were to break out, this you need to assume your
position. >> if a fight breaks out, we'll assume you're part of the problem unless you stand like this. >> turn to your left. >> walk down the yellow line, follow the yellow line all the way down. >> all wait to the back of the elevator, stay facing the back wall. correct. >> do you want to eat dinner? >> ma'am, here's your tray. >> facing that wall. >> straight down the hallway here. grab two blankets. >> two blankets. >> you're in 12. >> 200 bond you're in cell 8.
>> we're come and talk to you in a few minutes. >> the inmates are given a temporary housing location until they talk to classification officers, through the classification process is you know how we find out if people need to be separated, from the general population, if they have any gang issues, if they have any enemies, if they have any psychiatric issues and they house them appropriately after that. for inmates sobel and potter, it doesn't seem like they have any housing restrictions or keep them separated from the general population it seems like they'll be housed tomorrow morning. coming up -- >> apparently i wasn't as clean as i thought i was. >> brian sobel is assigned a
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>> officers have just responded to a ruckus between four known gang members. since it occurred inside a cell, the surveillance footage only tells part of the story. >> it appeared that a fight was going on. we don't have cameras in the cells, we have the cameras inside the housing units to insure what's going on. but inside the cells, they have an emergency button that they can press if they're under duress and we'll respond to assist in any capacity needed. in some cases all you can hear is just the yelling. because no one can push that button. so we have to respond as well. >> the four inmates involved are restrained and separated. it's now up to sergeant had you ever had huffrd and other deputies to find out what happened. >> a look a little red and scuffed up to be horse playing.
did this turn into more of a wrestling match? >> no. >> what was happening that the officer from the tower would have thought that a fight was going on? would it just have been hugging or? >> they see the black males dressed all together they say it's a fight. >> your eye is a little bit red. did you get poked in the eye. >> i just got out of the shower. >> you just got one eye that's red. >> that's not nothing. >> i want to make sure you're not scratched in the eye. >> you're in a jail, rough-housing, that's for children, you're in an adult facility. >> i'm sorry as a man from another man. >> we'll get back to you in a minute, okay? >> all right. >>. >> it sounds like at least the two from different cells went in to another cell. and can you see why that's a rule. i mean obviously when you're going into another man's dwelling, problems happen. and sometimes it's under the ruse of being a friend.
that they go into these cells and obviously that's a bad recipe. bad things can happen. >> jonathan darling and dejohn houston are the two men that ran into the cell. but they say it wasn't to harm anyone. >> a little police brutality. >> playing, a little rough housing, you feel me, a little workout. you feel me? for real. >> over in another housing unit, ryan sobel is struggling to adjust to his new living situation, it's been 48 hours since he and his girlfriend, ariel potter were arrested and charged with attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and conspiracy, both have since been arraigned and pled not guilty to all charges. potter has declined any further interviews, sobel has been assigned to a two-man cell in a general population housing unit. if found guilty the charges carry the possibility of a life
sentence. >> i haven't slept for two days. just really difficult for me to understand you know, i broke down really quickly and you know, it's a scary time of my life. >> phone calls are actually $4 a call, pretty crazy. >> i've had a very comfortable sealy posture pedic at home waiting for me. i think my dog has a better bed than this. >> sobel share as cell with jerry guillone. who agreed to appear on camera, but declined to speak. but sobel said guillone had plenty to say to him off-camera. >> his little cell is his domain, if something doesn't go his way, he doesn't appreciate that apparently i wasn't as clean as
i thought i was. just the type of ways that he makes you do things. flushing the toilet every time you go to the bathroom for the smell and then after every time you press for water, wipe it down with a rag. i mean kind of weird things like that, you know. >> rules of the room. mandatory. absolutely. i'm here by myself. not this type of person. >> coming up -- >> talibans kick ass, it pisses me off. i have seen the worst by these people. >> ryan sobel finds more to not like about jail. >> three inmates just entered that cell, appeared to shove another one into the cell. here comes another one that's going into the cell. >> sergeant hufferd turns to the video. the places we love...
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memorial honoring members of the military who were killed or wounded in battle. just another mile away, another purple heart recipient is attempting to adjust to life inside the sacramento county jail. ryan sobel has been moved into new cell because he was having problems with his first cellie. now the wounded afghan war vet finds old graffiti in his new cell adds insult to injury. >> talibans kick as. it pisses me off because i have seen the worst and been through the worst you know myself. by these people. >> sobel says his unit was attacked by taliban fighters on their way 0 back to base from a nearby village. >> at the time we had three humvees, i happened to be in the lead humvee for mission i was drying and ended up hitting a roadside bomb at the bridge. about half of the vehicle disintegrated. we were pinned down for about three, three and a half hours i
want to say. and we had black-op helicopter that ended up medivacing me out. i ended up having retinal detachment, my ear drums were completely blown. i ended up having surgery on my head twice, both of my clavicles were snapped. i had traumatic brain injury. i was in a hospital bed at that time. i was heavily scarred and everything. i was given the purple heart. i don't even remember, i've seen the picture of my colonel putting it on my chest. >> sobel was honorably discharged due to his many injuries. but now he faces charges of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and conspiracy. according to police, he allegedly stabbed two men in a brawl. involving his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend. >> lima beans, pumpkin pudding. >> a bit of good news for sobel is that he's getting along with his new cell mate, spencer
asher. >> my cellmate, i've got him to join the military when he gets out. he wants to change himself. i told him it's a perfect place to start. recruiters will work with you to expunge certain things on your record and get you to be asquared-away citizen of the united states. >> get up out of here and join the army. do me good, i'm tired of coming back here, it sucks. >> asher has given sobel advice as well. he's shown him a way to skirt jail rules in order to communicate with his girlfriend. >> we've come one a briefcase type situation here. it's an actual grocery bag cut in half and filed down a toothpaste tube and tied a piece of string on the other side of it. and on the other side is the screw. which fastens in and tightens down the string. it's basically like you're
regular manila envelope and i made her a card and drew the cover for me. put in her favorite candy and tomorrow our court date is, try to give it to one of the deputies down there. saying that she forgot it in the courtroom and hopefully it gets into her hands. if not -- it is what it is. >> when i first got in here i was having extreme panic attacks and anxiety attacks, i couldn't breathe. >> ariel potter decides to speak again and jonathan darling sheds light on what really happened in that cell.
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vetting process, particularly if they are fleeing from syria. as of tonight, 29 governors oppose the administration's move. now back to "lockup." due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. >> sacramento county'sdown town jail is known as the main jail. 20 miles to the south, in the heart of one of the most agriculturely productive regions in the world is another jail. this is considered sacramento county's second or branch jail. unlike other jailings where the majority of inmates are only charged with crimes, awaiting trial, the majority of the 1900
men and women here are already convicted and serving sentences. >> this is not a place to be, children. this is what we do here every day. >> this is due in part to a california law passed in 2011, designed to give relief to the state's once dangerously overcrowded prison system. now thousands of inmates who would normally have gone to prison are diverted to county jails lie rio kasumnas. at the center of this 140-acre facility is a 50-foot-tall security and control tower. >> the tower supervises the entire facility. you have a 360-degree view. we have one deputy up there at a time. staffed 24/7. our job is to sit up here and check the fences, make sure nobody is trying to escape. if somebody is near a fence, we have a lot of programs that
they're out there cutting the grass, make sure they're within the perimeter. >> we're monitoring the cameras, 27. at the same time you're hearing the beeps of the gates that need to be open. you need to go to your control board, open the gates and throughout the day we have yards that are open and that's hundreds of inmates out and about. i'm only the one that can see where they're at. i have to be looking around. they'll call me on the radio. the courts come in, buses going. there's a lot of stuff going on. >> rio also houses overflow inmates from the main jail downtown and a bus carrying a group of transfers has just entered the gates. >> among the new arrivals is ryan sobel. >> everything was going fantastic. i got my first visit from my parents on saturday. got my commissary bag and loving life, as much as i could be. and 3:45 a.m. got called and said to pack my stuff, going to the branch here.
and kind of a shock. didn't know what to do. really. >> housing at the main jail, they're usually at capacity. almost all the time. so after arraignments, they'll oftentimes send large busloads of inmates, still pretrial down here. >> sobel along with his girlfriend and co-defendant ariel potter, had recently appeared in court for a bail hearing on their charges, which included attempted murder and carry the possibility of a life sentence if found guilty. bail was denied to both of them. but sobel was able to execute his plan to send an envelope containing a home-made card and candy to potter. >> prior to me going into the room i acted like she dropped it and i gave it to one of the deputies and the next thing i knew the deputy that i gave it to didn't have it any more. so either he threw it away or he gave it to her. >> he says his attorney will appeal the bail decision. but for now sobel is placed in a maximum-security housing unit
due to the violent nature of his charges. back at the main jail downtown, sergeant hufferd has reviewed the video surveillance of a possibly gang-related brawl. he was must if this was good-natured rough-housing or something more sinister. >> the gentleman in the white t-shirt, you see him looking back and forth. three inmates just entered that cell, appeared to shove another one into the cell. here comes another one going into the cell it appears there's a physical altercation, this transpired at this time. can you see the bodies jerking back and forth. obviously there's something going on that brings the attention of everybody in that housing unit. all the parties involved say they're just playing. we didn't have any physical evidence of any injuries. we didn't have anybody willing to complain they were assaulted.
so truly we have to have a victim in order to act on their behalf. and in this particular case, none of the parties involved were willing to do that. so we do have in-house facility rules. these inmates were subsequently charged with horse-playing, rough-housing and entering a cell they're not assigned to. >> the four inmates involved have received three days of sanctions. including more time in their cells and suspension of visitation and commissary privileges. but sergeant hufferd says deputies will keep a close eye on them. >> we know these individuals are gang members. part of the problem with being in a correctional facility is it can be a breeding ground for finding new recruits. in this particular case it appears that this may have been a new recruit to this gang, getting jumped in. they're trying to inform us that no, they're just friends, they're just playing, it's all a joke. obviously it's not a joke to us.
if somebody gets hurt recruiting other gang members, these are all valid concerns for the safety of everyone in this facility and the integrity of the jail itself. >> allegedly i'm affiliated with the stars, allegedly. >> jonathan darling, one of the inmates who entered the cell now says there was more to the situation than horseplay. but it wasn't gang-related. >> if you're in your room and someone yell your name out over the tier and talking [ bleep ], you don't want that. people talking [ bleep ] over your name, so you got to defend your name. >> i came out with out my shirt and he said i was [ bleep ] small. and i said i'll show you small. >> that's what made you go in there? >> that's what made me go in there and i had a big ah. they were probably joking around, but i don't take [ bleep ] too kind. >> darling has been incarcerated
for the last three and a half years. at age 15 he was charged with assault on a person with a semiautomatic firearm and discharging a firearm. at an inhabited dwelling. darling pled not guilty and began fighting his case from juvenile hall and was transferred to the adult jail upon turning 18. he said the reason the case is taking so long is because he refuses to accept a plea deal from prosecutors. >> right now the deal that's on the table is 11 years eight months. >> and you're not interested in taking an 11-year deal? >> hell no. >> darling said he played high school basketball at the time of his arrest and dreamt of going much further. >> point guard. >> point guard? >> i got kicked off -- >> they found weed in your locker. >> weed in my locker. >> lou did that work out for you? >> it didn't work out pretty good. >> it ended your basketball career quickly. >> i didn't make it to one game.
>> while most young men who aspire to be professional athletes lack the talent. darling shows he may have actually had the skills. >> you can't do it. >> woo! that's luck. >> is there a future possibility for to you play basketball? >> no, no future possibility of me. i got a serious billing on my record. you can't be a basketball star with a record. that's not going to work out. >> okay. coming up, ryan sobel runs into more trouble. >> last night some black guy from upstairs threatened me and took my dinner tray right in front of me.
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at the rio branch of the sacramento county jail system, it has been less than 48 hours since ryan sobel was transferred to one of the maximum security housing units here. he will soon be on the move again. >> 7:30 in the morning. i walked in there, they started asking questions and i had to show them paperwork, which is your charges and one of the guys came in and threatened me. and last night, some black guy from upstairs turned around and threatened me, took my dinner tray right in front of me. i don't want the confrontation. >> when we got there this morning, i felt a lot of tension with the individuals out and about. i could tell that things obviously weren't right. and he would definitely not be returning to that pod.
we're going to find a different housing area where he's not going to have the same issues. >> as sobel waits in a holding area for his new housing assignment, he and deputy mcdaniel discuss something in common. combat tours in afghanistan and the possibility that they could have even crossed paths when sobel was badly injured by a roadside bomb. >> 35 miles an hour and back half of the humvee, we were going over a bridge. >> i got a platoon that was based medivac'd out of and then my platoon was based and we would pick guys up at j bad if you got blown up or whatever and fly them to badr and get them out. it was in july of 2008. >> yup. >> that was probably my unit. >> that's so crazy. such a small world. >> it's always interesting to talk to somebody who was in the same area at the same time.
especially someone who suffered injuries. that's what i was doing when i was thering, crewing medivac helicopters. guys who have been through a lotle, i have a soft spot for. try to help him out best as i can. >> a short time later, classification officers have found a new housing alternative for sobel. >> we have an area for individuals who don't need protective custody. but might not have as much experience with criminals and the criminal lifestyle. based on what he said and the research we've done, i think he would be a good fit for that spot. >> 17. >> two other partners. perfect. >> thank you.
>> i thought i was going to be a little bit wider, but it is what it is. -- quieter. >> ryan. >> nice to meet you. >> nice to meet you, man. >> aj. nice. >> the new cell is diesigned fo 12 men. but is currently housing three. >> we're very respectful in here, we just want cool, peaceful environment. if you want the tv off early, we'll come to an agreement and make it so if it fits everybody's schedule and criteria. you have to be respectful in here. otherwise we'll get trouble your way. >> in case there's any forgoting, sobel's cellmates have the rules taped to the wall with special emphasis on the
last one. 20 miles away. it's sacramento county's downtown jail. inmates make their way to and from the adjoining courthouse. a few days earlier, sobel was here for a bail hearing with his co-defendant and girlfriend, ariel potter. he attempted to get an envelope to her by pretending she dropped it and handing it to a deputy to give to her. >> i'm going to try to give it to one of the deputies down there, saying she forgot it in the courtroom and hopefully it gets into her hands. >> it's just been discovered by another. >> i think it's a female's property item. it's a a paper bag, report down her name and location. but it turns out to be some kind of card, i don't know if she was trying to pass it off maybe to her boyfriend or husband or whatever this was from last week and she hasn't come down. i don't know if she's out of custody. a very good possibility.
she came down, she wants it, we'll give it back. but once it stays too long, it ends up in the trash can. >> soon after we met her, potter declined to speak any further on camera as she tried to adjust to her new surroundings. several weeks later, she has changed her mind. >> when i first got in here i was having extreme panic attacks and anxiety attacks and i couldn't breathe, it was scarey. i cried all the time. i thought i was going to be out within a couple weeks. i still am kind of confused about a lot of things and it sucks being in the dark and not knowing what's going to happen. waiting for court date to court date. living on that week to week. it's difficult. it really is. >> ryan, honestly, think about him a lot. and then think about what i could have done differently that
night. >> what could you have done differently that night? >> we shouldn't have gone. we should have been the bigger people and just ignored it and just didn't go. >> potter and sobel were arrested several hours following a violent confrontation with her ex-boyfriend and some others, two of the people they fought with suffered stab wounds, allegedly inflicted by sobel. now the couple only sees each other from a distance during court hearings. >> i'm not trying to get in trouble. i mean it's pretty simple. self-explanatory. do you this, you don't do that. all we get to do is say i love you through the cell holding doors and that's it. >> i love you ariel. >> love you. >> coming up. >> they give me five days in the hole with everything taken from me. which was a definite experience. >> ryan sobel's week starts badly. then it gets worse. bigger than hered
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at sacramento's county correctional center, a new cell with friendlier inmates seem like a ray of sunshine for purple heart recipient. it has been all downhill from there. >> they gave me five days in the hole with everything taken from me. that was a definite experience. brought me back to the movie, cool hand luke. >> he was given five days of segregation, locked in a single man cell 23 hours a day with loss of privileges for attempting to send a letter to his girlfriend. >> the letter was written to her grandparents. i put hay note saying can you reroute this ther address. i thought that was okay. the letter i had written telling
her to stay strong and i loved her said that i will see her at the next court date. >> unless an inmate is given authorization, they are not allowed to write other inmates in this facility. in looking into the inmate mail, they are looking at anything that causes safety concerns. they may be talking to a codefendant about their case or coming up with an alibi. >> the violation cost him his place in the housing unit where he was assigned for safety. he is now back in maximum security. >> i was back where i originally had issues. i still see the people i had issues with. >> he no longer has access to the phone or television. he shares a cell with kevin stern who has been in and out of both jail and prison for the past nine years. >> how far did you get into your
book? >> like 40 pages. >> 40? that's like three weeks. >> you are a slow reader. >> from the way he walked to the way he talked to everybody coming in here. people asking him are you here for? this goes out to anybody and talk about what you are here for and talk about the case. we go through that every day. i'm like don't say that. >> stern played the role preparing him for the possibility of spending years in a level four maximum security state prison. >> that's what i am concentrating on. there is something new that is going to develop. someone has a different screw
loose in their head that has a different opinion dealing with animals and they all make the wrong decisions in life and have had. that's why kevin and i are on the same level in terms of politics. he is there to remind me and baby-sit me and teach me. i don't feel confident yet going to that next level. with my case if convicted, i am automatically a level four inmate. it scares me. >> he can use a mentor in jail. it is unlikely he will be leaving soon. the good news, bail was granted. the bad news was the amount. >> i believe it was $500,000 and assault with a deadly weapon combined with experience is another 500,000. i was given a $1 million bail.
>> he hoped being a wounded veteran and purple heart recipient would serve in his favor. >> he thanked me for my service and said i am a menace and a threat to society. a possible flight risk because of the higher up training that i have. i wanted to tell him that that has nothing to do with anything that's going on. five days a week and watching david letterman at night. he should be thankful for that and for him to try to incriminate me because of that, i don't know. it was disheartening. >> he was defended by a private attorney and at least eligible for bail. ariel potter who is represented by a public defender is yet to be granted any bail amount. >> i am confused. it feels like his lawyers are trying to put it on me.
it's scarey that this will come on me and, i mean, i want ryan out. i do. if me being in here has to happen, i would rather have him out. i don't know. i love him and i don't want to see him in jail. >> soebl places at least some blame on potter. >> with the military, whether we are guilty or not guilty, her and myself put myself in harm's way. it could have been very easily made my health worse. she should have been there as my care giver, caretaker to help and support me. make the right decisions that night. >> i still feel as strong towards him as i ever have. i don't feel like it will hurt our relationship.
i know that he still loves me as much as i love him. >> i had a lot of things that i liked. five bedroom house to a brand-new car to a brand-new boat to a loving girlfriend and dogs. i guess you can say that's the american dream. it got washed away in a matter of a month. i lost my house and my dog. everything. >> it's not just looking out the window and seeing the train station, i wish they were going somewhere else.