tv Meet the Press MSNBC November 22, 2015 11:00am-12:01pm PST
this sunday, fighting isis. how do we defeat them, what should the u.s. strategy be, and how safe are we at home? we'll talk to the experts including homeland security chief jeh johnson and former defense secretary and head of the cia leon panetta on what needs to be done. plus, a bad week for american leadership. president obama sounds defensive. >> i don't know what more you want me to add. while the republicans go over the top on refugees. >> i would encourage, you mr. president, come back and insult me to my face. >> i want to surveil. i want surveillance of these people that are coming in. >> how will the isis threat and the politics of fear impact the 2016 campaign? also, syrian refugees and america.
are there legitimate reasons to slow the process or is this just islamophobia? joining me for insight and analysis are tom brokaw of nbc news, kathleen parker of the "washington post," helene cooper of the "new york times" and ron fournier of the "national journal." welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." from nbc news in washington, this is a special edition of "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. the belgian capital, brussels, remains in lockdown with soldiers on the streets amid fears of an imminent isis attack. police in that city are also searching door to door for one of the paris attackers who is believed to be hiding somewhere in the brussels area. meanwhile, overnight in malaysia president obama struck a different tone than he did earlier this week and he addressed americans' fears about terror specifically. >> the most powerful tool we have to fight isil is to say
that we're not afraid. to not elevate them. to somehow buy into their fantasy that they're doing something important. they're a bunch of killers. >> this morning we'll look at the isis threat from all the angles. how do we build an international coalition against isis? does the u.s. strategy in the region have to change? and if so, how? how serious is the threat of isis to us here in the united states? how do we remain safe while not giving into islamophobia? and how will all of this impact the campaign for the white house in 2016. we have the top names on all those issues with us this morning. we'll begin with efforts to keep america safe. this morning in new york city, a counterterror exercise took place, and right now you've seen simulating how the authorities would deal with an active
shooter situation in the new york city subway. joining me from this exercise is the head of the department of homeland security, jeh johnson, and new york city police chief, bill bratton. gentlemen, welcome back to "meet the press" for both of you. >> good morning, chuck. >> good morning. secretary johnson, let me start with you. there's a lot of chatter, a lot of unsubstantiated threats including one in atlanta having to do with a wrestling event tonight. what can you tell the american public this morning about any specific threats out there and how concerned are you? >> chuck, let me reiterate what the fbi director and i have said before. we have no specific credible intelligence about a threat of the paris type directed at the homeland here. we are always concerned about potential copycat acts, home born, homegrown, violent
extremism of the type that we've seen in recent months and years, and so the exercise today is reflective of where we think we need to be and so this is also something supported by the department of homeland security through our grant making activity and so we want the american public to know that we're on the job, we're vigilant, and we're continually re-evaluating our security posture. >> mr. secretary, what can you tell me about brussels? the fact that the threat was so imminent that they shut down the subway system, the u.s. embassy said shelter in place. i assume there's been some intelligence sharing here. how serious is that brussels threat and how concerning is that that it's somehow related to something that might happen here? >> we're continually in touch with law enforcement, intelligence authorities in western europe around brussels and in paris and elsewhere, and we monitor these things.
as i said, we're concerned about potential copycat acts, things of that nature, and that's why we're out here today. we're continuing to be vigilant. we're continuing to monitor, re-evaluate. there's also a role for the public to play, too, chuck, which is if you see something, say something. that's got to be more than a slogan. but in general with this holiday season coming up, we want the public to continue to go to public events, celebrate the holiday season, travel, be with their families and the like and to know that law enforcement, our intelligence community, our national security officials are on the job overtime. >> commissioner bratton, you just completed it was an active shooter exercise of mass transit in the new york subway system. when you look at what happened in paris and, frankly, how inexpensive that operation may have actually been and that it was sort of a complicated cell but one that didn't use a lot of
complicated weapons, does it make you change any tactics? are you trying new things based on what you learned from paris? >> well, what we're doing here today, the video that you just showed of the exercise we're engaged in, this is part of a continuing series of exercises. this was planned before the paris events, but it has certain paris elements involved in it, including a scenario with an vird with a suicide vest. what we're doing here today in conjunction with homeland security is testing out new technology, ballistics detection, video technology, communications technology, and building into it some of what we've learned from paris. beginning back with the mumbai attacks many years ago, american policing and homeland security and federal agencies have constantly been adjusting with everything we learned from these events, paris, mali, we're building all of that into the exercises going forward.
>> one of the most prominent events taking place in the next weeks is the macy's thanksgiving day parade. commissioner, what extra steps are you taking? >> well, we're very fortunate that over the past year mayor de blasio here in new york has funded us to the extent that we now have about a thousand more officers that will be focused on counterterrorism and crowd management. we have a new response group, 800 officers. we have a new critical response command, over 500 officers. they will be out at that parade. for a change we'll have great weather, low wind, the balloons will be up. we're expecting about 3 million people to be in new york city for that event. it's going to be a great event and it will be a safe and secure event. >> secretary johnson, we've had a heated debate about the syrian refugee issue, about you in talking with law enforcement officials, you hear that if congress did anything, you'd like them to focus on the visa waiver issue.
explain. is it easier for an isis operative to get into this country via the visa waiver system or getting a visa than it is the refugee process? >> chuck, the reality is that something like only 2,100 syrian refugees have been resettled in this country through a very extensive vetting process that takes something like 18 to 24 months. the visa waiver program is something that we've been focused on, frankly, since i've been secretary because there are a number of foreign terrorist fighters who have gone into iraq and syria from countries in europe and elsewhere and so last year we enhanced the security of the visa waiver program. this is a program where people in certain countries can come here without a visa. and we've been focused on enhancing the security of that. i ordered enhancements late last
year and then again in august, and congress also is focused on this, and i think that there are ways that congress can help us -- >> should we temporarily eliminate the waiver program for a while? >> i would not do that at all. the visa waiver program is very, very important to lawful trade, travel, commerce, a very popular program that people use virtually every day. but there are security enhancements that we have made and we should evaluate whether more is necessary and i'm happy to have that conversation with our friends in congress. they're interested in this, too. >> commissioner bratton, i want to ask you to react to something else. washington, d.c. police chief kathy lanier on "60 minutes" tonight is going to make a recommendation that in an active shooter situation if somebody can take the gunman out -- either with a weapon or any other way -- she actually recommends that you do that because police can't get there
in time, the 9/11 call can't get there in time. in an active shooter situation more victims are going to die in the first ten minutes before law enforcement gets there. i've not heard that from a law enforcement official before. what do you make of that recommendation? >> there's nothing new about that, that if somebody is armed in one of those scenarios and has the potential. but the reality is somebody with a handgun up against somebody with an ak-47 is going to be outgunned and is putting themselves at serious risk. but at the same time, if the scenario allows for that, then certainly we would support that. but i'd like to go back to one of the earlier comments about congress. congress really wants to do something instead of just talking about something, help us out with that terrorist watch list, those thousands of people that can purchase firearms in this country. i'm more worried about them than i am about syrian refugees to be quite frank with you. so if congress really wants to do something to help the
american law enforcement community and the american public, well, let's start getting serious about doing something that they can actually do something about. >> commissioner bratton, secretary johnson, thank you for joining me very briefly this morning. >> thank you, glad to be here. >> thank you. now to the key diplomatic problem. although there seems to be global consensus that isis needs to be wiped out, why is it so hard to build a coalition to do just that? our chief foreign correspondent richard engel has been looking into this angle to try to answer that question. >> reporter: the day the french now call black friday was isis' terrifying breakout moment. the moment the world realized that the group is a global threat. it's a level of sophistication that took the obama administration by surprise. >> well, i think there was a widespread belief that it was just another violent jihadist group and that these groups were brutal, and because of their brutality, they inevitably
failed. >> reporter: isis turns out to be the most successful terrorist organization in recent history. francois heisberg says security forces are struggling to keep up with the group he calls by the arab name daesh. >> we have yet to build up a skill base and the number of people need it to keep track of an organization as professional and as competent as daesh. daesh leaves al qaeda in the dust. >> reporter: but after claiming responsibility for the russian plane, the beirut bombings and now paris, isis has put itself in almost everyone's cross hairs. france intensified its bombing of the isis capital raqqah after paris and moved an aircraft carrier into the region. russia is attacking isis, launching more cruise missiles, and president putin promised to
punish the group relentlessly. washington has been attacking isis for over a year and iran and hezbollah have been at it longer than that. why can't so many powerful nations and groups beat a terrorist army? one reason is obvious -- critics say there's no coordination and no war can be won without a plan. but what's worse, there are rivalries over the future of the land isis currently occupies, especially in the middle east. >> saudi arabia and many of the united states' other allies don't like the islamic state but its destruction is not their top priority, it's third or fourth down the list. turkey, for example, is more worried about the kurds establishing their own state. saudi arabia is more worried about iran and so on down the list. there are very few countries who share the united states' desire to destroy the islamic state as a first order priority. >> reporter: many are wondering
whether what happened in paris will be enough to shock the world into finding some sort of consensus, or will it take yet another terrorist massacre to do that? and isis is now threatening attacks in the united states. >> richard engel in turkey. thank you very much. i'm now joined by leon panetta. he served as secretary of defense and director of the cia under president obama. secretary panetta, nice to see you, sir. let me ask with a very simple question -- is the president's current strategy against isis working? >> well, obviously there's a lot of concern about whether or not we've deployed the resources to be able to accomplish the mission that the president described. i think the mission that he said is the right mission, which is to disrupt, dismantle, and destroy isis. that's the right mission. but i think that the resources applied to that mission,
frankly, have not been sufficient to confront that. and for that reason we have to be much more aggressive and much more unified in the effort to take on isis. >> in politico, one of the former counterterrorism advisors to president bush and president obama, michael vickers, wrote this, "by any measure our strategy in iraq and syria is not succeeding or not succeeding fast enough. we are playing a more long game when a disruptive strategy is required." basically the argument is maybe this strategy is correct but the speed with which it's being implemented is what's wrong. do you buy that argument? >> well, i think he makes some very good points. look, if we're going to confront isis, you know, clearly we've been through acts of war these last few weeks that make it very clear that they are a clear and present danger not only to europe but to this country as well. and we're going to have to take some very specific steps here.
one is to unify this effort. as richard engel pointed out, this effort is not coordinated. people are not working together. everybody's kind of doing their own thing on different targets. we need to unify the command. we need to set a joint command center where all of these countries are together on their objectives, and, secondly, we need to increase our effort there. we need to increase the tempo of our air strikes. we need to organize ground forces, particularly the sunnis and the kurds and arm them so that they can take territory back from isis. and, frankly, we need to increase special forces and our intelligence advisers not only to guide these forces but to go with them in order to ensure that we are successful in this effort. >> you know, you were not shy about criticizing the president and the strategy on syria. i'm curious, do you think we'd be in a different place today, for instance you criticized there was a failure to push the iraqi government to allow a
residual force to remain in iraq? the decision not to arm syrian rebels in 2012 and the failure to follow through against assad when the president said he crossed the red line. taken together, if any one thing had changed there, would we be in a different place today, mr. secretary? >> chuck, that's really hard to say because of the chaos that we're seeing in syria. we've got an awful lot of people that bear some spoont therrespo there, including the united states. assad is probably the primary villain for what's going on if syria. iran bears some responsibility for injecting themselves into the civil war. hezbollah is there. we've got a number of opposing forces. a lot of extremists that are part of those opposing forces in syria. the problem with maliki who basically threw the sunnis not only out of the government but out of the military, added fuel
to the development of isis, and i think the united states by virtue of not getting involved sooner in trying to establish some kind of moderate force there, i think all of those are factors that have contributed to the situation that we're facing now. >> all right, our panel is also here with me, my colleague tom brokaw of nbc news, kathleen parker of the "washington post," helene cooper of the "new york times" and ron fournier of the "national journal." tom, i know you wanted to ask the secretary a question. >> mr. secretary, i have been running the traps in washington talking to military analysts and also national security experts and they all say the same thing. the president up to this point has been, to put it kindly, the commander in chief but not very commanding, and there's a great deal of concern that on the other side, on the republican side, there's too much loose talk about putting thousands of american troops on the ground there, suggesting that the americans can get involved in a ground war. what specifically should be the role of the united states on the ground in that part of the world in your judgment?
>> well, tom, first and foremost, i think the u.s. has to lead in this effort because what we've learned a long time ago is if the united states does not lead, nobody else will. so the united states has to provide stronger leadership in trying to unify the forces that are there. in addition to that, i think it's very clear that we are going to have to commit additional resources to this effort. we've got to have -- we've got to speed up our air strikes. look, air strikes are great, we're hitting some targets, but air strike alone are not going to win here. what isis has achieved is the ability to gain territory. and it's that territory, it's the caliphate where they're designing their ability to kind of now do outreach and attack other countries. we've got to take that territory away from them. it's been a year. they're still mosul.
they're still in ramadi. they're still in raqqah. those are the areas we have to go after in order to be able to defeat isis ultimately. we've got to take the territory back, and we've got to make sure that other countries are part of the effort to try to deal with isis. all of those steps need to be taken. >> on that specific front, actually, on territory, helene, you had a specific question on that front. >> i do. but i'm also really curious, mr. secretary, about you're talking right now about unifying the command and unifying the anti-isis effort. given that two of the major players -- three of the major players on that field are the united states, russia, and iran -- and these are not three countries that actually get along, they're very much adversarial -- how exactly do you propose that we unify this command and unify this effort? do you envision iranian and russian forces being under an american command? how does this work? >> no, not really, because i
think, you know, it would be nice to have the russians be part of that, but i'm not sure they will, and i don't think iran would as well. my focus would be to have nato countries. i'll a little surprised that they haven't invoked article v of the nato charter. we invoked article v after 9/11, they should certainly do it now and be able to get nato and its military forces engaged in that effort. secondly, we need the arab countries, the moderate arab countries, saudi arabia, uae, jordan and others to be part of that effort. we've got to focus on that effort because that's doable. when we went into libya, we had over 50 nations that were part of that effort. we had a joint command center at naples. that's the effort we need to put together and focus on our objectives and what we're trying to achieve. russia, obviously it would be nice to have them as part of
that effort but, frankly, i don't trust them in this effort at this time, and i certainly don't trust iran to be part of that effort as well. we've got to focus on our allies and the countries that work with us to try to achieve the mission that we need to go after. >> and very quickly secretary panetta, would you somehow prioritize isis over assad at this point or do they have to be pursued simultaneously? >> i think we've got to go after both of them. i don't think we can suddenly say assad -- you know, we shouldn't pay attention to him because assad is an international criminal and we should not be part of an effort to allow assad to stay in place. but our priority here, our main focus now, ought to be in going after isis and making sure we defeat them. they're the clear and present danger. they're the ones we have to defeat if we're going to be successful at protecting the american people. >> secretary panetta, former director of the cia, always good to hear your wisdom on this, thanks for joining me this morning.
>> thank you. much more on how we confront isis coming up. the politics of fear. how do we remain safe and still not give in to islamophobia? >> i want to surveil, i want surveillance of these people that are coming in, the trojan horse, i want to know who the hell they are. erve pain, these feet... ...served my country... ...carried the weight of a family... ...and walked a daughter down the aisle. but i couldn't bear my diabetic nerve pain any longer. so i talked to my doctor and he prescribed lyrica. nerve damage from diabetes causes diabetic nerve pain. lyrica is fda-approved to treat this pain. lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new, or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or blurry vision. common side effects are dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs and feet.
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was roundly criticized for being a bit tone deaf and dispassionate, the republican presidential candidates have been playing on the politics of fear in an extraordinary way. >> database is okay and watch list is okay and surveillance is okay. if you don't mind, i want to be -- i want to surveil -- i want surveillance of these people that are coming in. i want surveillance of certain mosques, okay? if that's okay. i want surveillance. and you know what? we've had it before, and we'll have it again. >> those planes that flew into the twin towers weren't piloted by a bunch of ticked off presbyterians. >> if there's a rabid dog running around your neighborhood, you probably are not going to assume something good about that dog, and you're probably going to put your children out of the way. it doesn't mean you hate all dogs.
>> the politics of fear can be effective politically, but when does tough rhetoric turn into islamophob islamophobia? that's the discussion we're going to have right after the break. when heartburn hits fight back fast tums smoothies starts dissolving the instant it touches your tongue and neutralizes stomach acid at the source tum, tum, tum, tum smoothies! only from tums
arsalan, has this week been -- how tough has it been to be a muslim-american this week? >> well, chuck in the seven days since the paris attack we've seen mosques attacked here in the united states in omaha, nebraska, pflugerville, texas, there was a 43-year-old man in st. peter's burg, florida, who was arrested by the fbi for saying he was going to shoot and kill every single muslim child that he sees, and southwest airlines had two or three flights where muslims were taken off of the flights simply because they're muslim so it's been par for the course since september 11th. >> i want to play -- we've seen the republican rhetoric this time. i want to play for sort of a comparison what you've heard today from some of these republican presidential candidates and what we heard from the last republican president on the issue of islam. here it is. >> i watched when the world trade center came tumbling down and i watched in jersey city, new jersey, where thousands and
thousands of people were cheering. >> the face of terror is not the true faith of islam. that's not what islam is all about. islam is peace. >> that would be like saying we weren't at war with nazis because we were afraid to offend some germans who may have been members of the nazi party but weren't violent themselves. this is a clash of civilization. >> when it comes to the common rights and needs of men and women, there is no clash of civilizations. >> if there's a rabid dog running around your neighborhood, you're probably not going to assume something good about that dog. >> and we respect the faith and we welcome people of all faiths in america. and we're not going to let the war on terror or terrorists cause us to change our values. >> arsalan, what did the bush white house do behind the scenes to make sure they got this right? >> i think what george w. bush said after 9/11 in terms of showing solidarity with
american-muslims, sadly, he'd be considered an outcast in today's 2015 republican party. we see people like donald trump saying that we should have a database of all american muslims. i wonder if the two members of congress, my buddy keith carson, be in that database? special i.d.s for muslim is that similar to the yellow stars of david jewish people had to wear. a yellow crescent this time? >> would it be helpful if muslim community leaders got together with these candidates? requested a sit down of the a conversation to tone down the rhetoric? asked them specifically to tone down the rhetoric and has anything taken place that you know of? >> kathleen, during the 2008 presidential campaign when there were whisper campaigns going around of barack obama being a crypto muslim manchurian candidate, you didn't see anybody speak out against this until colin powell came on this show to tell his fellow republicans to shut the hell up. we need allies from outside the
community to speak on the behalf of american principles of tolerance and pluralism. people expect muslims to speak out, but it's important for allies to speak out as well. >> i agree. i was simply thinking if you put those people on the spot, if they refuse to sit down and have a conversation, that's one statement unto itself. >> almost like a forum. maybe a public forum. >> a public forum. >> well, i wonder if this forum will take place in these american muslim internment camps which is i am sure will be the next statement -- and i hope you all will come visit me in these internment camps because it's getting absurd. it's beyond the pale that, you know, when ben carson says that muslims should not be allowed to be president, he clearly hasn't read the religious test clause of the constitution and so in many cases not only should these people not be allowed to run for president, they should retroactively fail eighth grade social studies for not knowing the constitution. >> another public forum is
twitter and you asked why is it so many people put the french flag in their avatar but very few people put the flag of an african, mali, in their twitter feed? you answer that question. why do you think so few people have rallied behind mali in that public of a way? >> i think the racism -- i think it has a lot to do with it. you have a black predominantly muslim country in mali with is 92% muslim and then a white european country like france. we're obviously horrified at the paris attacks but there are terrorist attacks that happen everyday. in the same week as the paris attacks there were suicide bombings in beirut, lebanon, in baghdad, iraq. but we never saw any sort of moral outrage. >> don't forget nigeria. >> and nigeria as well. >> is it simply racism? i had the french flag, i didn't think of putting the mali flag in my avatar. what does that say about me? >> facebook created a photo tool for the people of france, that made it easier. but we have to have these conversations. what's most important is we're letting this talk by these republican presidential
front-runners go unchallenged. when ben carson refers to refugees as rabid dogs and donald trump talks about "these people" and i'm going to surveil people and make them have special i.d.s and databases and people are cheering, when they don't see any meaningful pushback, it allows it to go unchallenged. >> the other thing that happens within the republican party apart from those who are running for president, there's been no voice on that side to challenge their own presidential candidates. and the president, i think, has made a mistake by just saying "we know what we're doing, trust us "when actually there's palpable fear out there. he ought to engage the american people in dialogue that goes beyond a statement from far off asia when he's talking about what we can do. >> i think, though, there's also responsibility in the news media to make sure we're covering these events, we're covering this stuff the way it is happening. for instance, there's still no
link between syrian refugees and the attack in paris, okay? these guys are belgian and french nationals. they're not syrian refugees. we don't have a link to that yet, and yet all of this rhetoric -- i would love to see the practices -- >> there's the rumor of a passport. and that's it. >> but that's it. that's it. >> when donald trump talks about security or ben carson, we're talking about 3-year-old orphans who are orphans and refugees because of american policy. >> excuse me, but this week is a reflection of how our leaders are going to respond to the next 9/11. i really think we're one major hit away from a national unraveling, and i think of bill clinton who talked about at times of insecurity people would rather have a leader who is wrong and strong than right and weak. well, we have a lot of leaders right now, especially on the right side of the paradigm, who are very -- trying to pretend they're strong and they're very, very wrong. >> i want to give you the last word. >> it's important to keep in mind, there was a recent poll that happened in iowa amongst republican registered voters
that showed that 33% of iowa republicans believe that islam should be illegal in america today. against the law. >> how do we change that? that's public opinion. overall 56% of americans say it doesn't match american values. is it education campaigns? >> re-education camps for adults. >> 59% of americans today believe that barack obama is still a muslim. i feel like jerry seinfeld needs to pop on and say "not that there's anything wrong with that." muslim has become a slur in america today. >> thanks for coming. >> my pleasure. >> always good to have you on the show. we'll have you again. appreciate it. we'll have more of this conversation, i promise you. when we come back, how much do we have to fear about isis using the syrian refugee crisis to slip terrorists into the united states? the holes in our defense are not refugees, it's visas. i'll explain. the cold truth is...
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in today's nerdscreen, we'll take a deep dive into the refugee issue into the united states. here's how we'll start. we'll start with refugees from afghanistan, iraq, and syria since 2002, 2003 and 2011 respectively. here are your total numbers. let me show you something else. the map shows the top states where refugees from these three countries have been settled when they first came to the united states. it's primarily faith-base and nonprofit groups who help the refugees decide where to settle. a lot of the big sfrats california, texas, new york, not a surprise. the bigger the state, the more likely they're going to get these refugees. now let's look at the big picture. there's been nearly 785,000 refugees who have been admitted to the united states since 9/11. only about a dozen -- roughly one one thousandths of 1% -- have been arrested or removed from the u.s. due to terrorism concerns. none of those folks removed were syrian, by the way. the fact is, it's not easy to get into america via the refugee
process. let me walk you through how this works just with syrians. the united nations has referred just over 23,000 syrian refugees to the united states. of those 23,000, 7,000 of them were thought to be worthy enough to be interviewed by the department of homeland security. by the way, they were interviewed outside of the united states. of those 7,000, just 2,165 were accepted into the united states. now, here's the issue -- the real vulnerability that u.s. lawmakers may want to look into is not the refugee process, it's actually those traveling to the u.s. on visas or with european passports. let me explain. the visa waiver program allows passport holders of 38 countries who meet certain requirements to travel to the united states without a visa, without a next level of vetting, that includes france, by the way, and many other european union countries. what does this mean? it's important to remember all 19 september 11 hijackers traveled to the united states on
some form of a visa. none of them were refugees. it's this visa program that needs to be looked into by congress. back in a moment with isis and the 2016 election. and what exactly did john kasich mean when he called for a judeo-christian federal agency? i'll ask him that. with the people we love. for stuff we can't get anywhere else. and food that tastes like home. because the money we spend here... can help keep our town growing. on small business saturday, let's all shop small. for the neighborhood, the town, the home we love. on november 28th, shop small.
"judeo-christian values." it's now an idea he's amended a bit. governor kasich joins me now. governor kasich, welcome back to "meet the press." i have to start with when you say that phrase, we have to promote judeo-christian values around the world, particularly to the middle east, in this atmosphere, it sounds -- it can come across as a little anti-islam. tell me why i'm wrong about that. >> chuck, you need to calm down. what i have said is when i look at voice of america or radio liberty, what i've argued is the western ethic. what is it about? it's about life. it's about equality of women. it's about the freedom of religion. it's not about going to church is not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about that every life has real meaning and as -- if you read more carefully, you would have noticed that i've invited moderate muslims into this discussion as well. i proposed some time ago a comprehensive plan to deal with
isis, including boots on the ground, a coalition including arabs, nato forces, no-fly zones, sanctuaries, a lot of things. but i said we can win the battle of bullets, i have no doubt about that, but we have to also engage in the battle of ideas when we have many people, including many young people, looking for meaning in life somewhere other than in western civilization. and i think it's the western ethic, western civilization that is under attack. they don't want to negotiate, this is almost a metaphysical battle where they're saying they want to destroy our very way of life. and i think it's important we communicate these ideas of the importance of an individual and equality of women and respect for education and respect for science and we'll invite anybody in that wants to be part of that communication and, frankly, i am proud to see so many moderate muslims beginning to stand up and condemn the attacks in paris and say their religion has been hijacked. so i think it's very important that we all come to grips with
the fact that we've got to communicate who we are and while we believe in life, they believe that death somehow gets them to paradise. not any new agency, not anything about going to church, about who we are as the west that represents freedom and life and progress. that's what we need to communicate to the world. >> now, one of the criticisms, though, of making this about "the west versus isis" is you're leaving out a lot of people that would like to live in the middle east as muslims. >> that's not true, chuck. >> and it becomes a clash of civilizations, this idea that it's about a war against civilizations. >> chuck, read bernard lewis. he will tell you there was a time when islam did represent science and progress and education, and most of them do. so we not only want to go alone on this, but we want to agree and work together with people who share the view that the path to murder does not get you to paradise and, in fact, it's the path to the elevation of the
individual and the ability to live a life bigger than yourself. look, chuck, i tell you, i have been arguing all along we need a gulf state type coalition, including arabs. we need to work closely with the jordanians, the saudis. we need to work with the gulf states, the egyptians. we need to have a coalition and destroy isis on the ground. i've argued for no-fly zones that would include the kurds, would include also jordanians protecting these sanctuaries so these refugees do not have to leave their country. but i'm also saying that when we win the military battle, what comes next? you all ask what comes next? what we have to make sure of is that we stop the radicalization of people and we can do it together. everybody who believes in civilization and the western ethic and the ability to embrace the importance of the individuals' lives here on earth. >> are you concerned that the front-runners in this race are basically casting all of the republican presidential
candidates in an unflattering light -- >> they're not casting me that way. >> but let me ask you, where is the outrage on some of the comments about rabid dogs? on the idea that, you know, hey -- i mean, who's -- who is standing up on this? what's happening in your party, sir? >> chuck, as you know, i've been in a virtual war with donald trump over these things. i flat out condemn the idea that we were going to have muslims register. i mean, i can't help that maybe you didn't have a camera out there, but the fact is i condemned it as soon as it came out of his mouth. that is not acceptable. >> so why is it working? why do you think trump is working? >> well, chuck, look, i don't know how much he's working and i don't know who they're surveying and i do believe in polls like you do, but at the same time, who are they surveying and are these people for real? i don't think so. i think at the end when you don't have experience, when we look at this critical nature of
foreign policy, i listened to a lot of what leon panetta had to say, i agree with much of it, much of it i've already said. and the idea that we're going to repel an entire group of people on the basis of their religion, it's nonsense. as you know, i've been in a twitter war with donald trump and experience does matter and i have a lot of it, chuck, that's why i have a solid plan to get rid of isis and rebuild our military. >> very quickly, bill bratton, new york city police commissioner, says he wants congress to ban the ability of anybody on a terrorist watch list -- even if they're an american citizen -- that they cannot buy firearms. it's a proposal sitting in congress. the nra isn't happy with it. where are you on it? >> i've never heard it until right now. i've had a lot of respect for bill bratton but i will tell you americans want to defend themselves and what we need to focus on on firearms right now is making sure states use their databases to upload the people who have mental illnesses. and if we want to examine people
on terrorist watch lists and not let them buy a gun, it's something that ought to be considered. that's the first i've heard of. >> fair enough. governor kasich, i will leave it there. stay safe on the trail. we'll talk to you soon. >> all right. let me bring in the panel. tom, you were wanting to jump in there. >> i was just thinking to myself that governor kasich is about to become the most popular subject on the right wing social media circuit after that appearance here this morning. >> why is that? >> he'll be taken on for challenging the idea that we have to have some kind of a security list for all muslims who come into this country and not have a relationship with them around the world. when you talk about a war on islam, you're talking about a war on indonesia, for example. most of the subcon tkon ticonti asia. so when he challenges that premise on the part of both donald trump and dr. carson who are doing extremely well in the polls, he's going to find himself a target on social media. you cannot underestimate the
impact of social media in spreading a lot of not just the outrageous positions but flat out lies. when donald trump says he saw in jersey city thousands of people cheering the twin trade towers coming down, it's completely wrong. it did not happen. he didn't see it. but who's there to challenge him on that? >> there's something that ted cruz said this week, i want to play it quickly because i was just astonished by it. let me play this clip. >> mr. president, if you want to insult me, you can do it overseas, you can do it in turkey, you can do it in foreign countries, but i would encourage you, mr. president, come back and incompetent susult me to my. >> kathleen, can you imagine if barack obama or hillary clinton in '07 said that. president obama was really unpopular in the democratic primary just like barack obama is really unpopular in the republican primary. there's a line here though. did he cross one? >> it was a smart move for ted cruz politically. first of all, he's generally assumed to be the best person on the debate team. i have to be careful of my
wording there. so he's inviting the president who's, of course, not going to say anything to his face, but he looks like the tough guy. it's just a little bit of a playground swagger. it works for his base. >> but isn't that the problem right now with this entire republican campaign? so much of what they're saying is about swagger. there's no consequence for them to say anything that they want to. they can make things up. they can go out and say flat out untruths and nobody is challenging them. very similar to what tom said. >> i have to pay a quick bill and i'll come back and ron will have one more word on this. coming up in just 45 seconds, our end game segment. i'll share with you results. yesterday's election for governor in louisiana which in the last week turned into a debate about -- syrian refugees, of course. we'll be right back. doers built this country. the dams and the railroads. ♪john henry was a steel drivin' man♪ hmm, catchy. they built the golden gates and the empire states. and all this doin' takes energy -no matter who's doin'.
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and try pluggable febreze... ...to continuously eliminate odors for... ...up to 45 days of freshness pluggable febreze and fabric refresher... ...[inhale + exhale mnemonic]... ... , two more ways to breathe happy "end game" time. the panel is here. we actually had an election and maybe you could say was it a referendum on prostitution or syrian refugees? let me show you the results. louisiana governor, the democrats won here, but i don't know if they won. john bel edwards or the republican, david vitter, lost in this case. ron fournier, if democrats couldn't win under these circumstances in the south, they were never going to win. >> if democrats could only replicate this. if they could always have a pro-gun, pro-life veteran run against a guy who cares more about hookers than he does about his job then the democrats might be able to do better. >> i don't think the hooker thing hurt him because he's
been -- he was re-elected to the senate. >> they can take governor more seriously than we take the senate vote. >> and bobby jindal hurt him too. he began running for president the minute he was in the governor's seat and that probably didn't help him. >> i want to double back on what we were talking about earlier. i took a shot at our leadership earlier and i believe in that strongly but we have to realize we are changing in a way that we have to be more responsible. we are more scared than we were since 9/11 and we trust our institutions less than we did since 9/11, we trust each other and with social media we have the ability to ghettoize ourselves, to only listen to the views we already agree with and demonize and attack everybody else. when you combine that with this vacuum we have with leadership, that's why i worry about what happens the next time we get hit. are we as a people able to hold together? >> i don't want this broadcast to end without all of us dealing with the new reality. we're at war. this has changed. paris has changed the place of america in this war against isis and it's now a war and it won't
be a ground war with the united states sending 20,000 to 40,000 troops up against isis. it's very complicated. we'll have a greater presence in iraq to protect the iraqi government so it doesn't fall and then we have the same kind of division that we had in the past. we have to have more special forces in iraq to go against isis. we'll have to control aerospace, no question about that. we won't get help for from our european allies this time. it's not like bush and baker when they went to iraq one. >> i would say to that that we're not only at war against isis. i think what happened in mali on friday shows that we also are at war against al qaeda and there's a war, there's a battle going on right now between isis and al qaeda for supremacy and that is very scary. a lot of that has been -- >> i would say we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. when we talk about trying to prevent radicalization, how do
you do that when you're viewed as an invasive force killing more and more people? it just -- i don't know how you -- >> well, the tricky part is we won't send the 82nd airborne against isis on the ground. that's not going to happen. the fact is the president was what i would call benign neglect about the continuing expansion of isis, the more sophistication of it all the time. it has to come to a halt. >> very quickly. >> it's a generational conflict. you wrote about the greatest generation. we need to have more people having skin in the game? do we have to have more service? >> we need to have this country understand they have to sacrifice some as well if we go to war. not just send 1% of the population over there to make the fight. >> i'm make that the last word because as you can see we needed 90 minutes and we tried to squeeze it into an hour. we'll be back next week. have a terrific thanksgiving, maybe our greatest american holiday. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."
i'm chris jansing live in paris where there are fast-moving developments in the aftermath of the paris terror attacks. in fact, right now there's some sort of police operation under way in brussels. we'll have more on that in just a moment. also a short time ago word that the belgian capital will remain at the nation's high he is alert level through tomorrow. schools and subways will remain closed. here in france we're getting a new photograph of the suspected suicide bomber. and new word today, a new interview, the brother of one of the suspected terrorists in the paris attacks saying his brother was not radicalized. so a lot going on at this hour but let's start in brussels where the prime minister said after more than an hour-long meeting with his