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tv   MSNBC Live  MSNBC  November 22, 2015 12:00pm-2:01pm PST

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i'm chris jansing live in paris where there are fast-moving developments in the aftermath of the paris terror attacks. in fact, right now there's some sort of police operation under way in brussels. we'll have more on that in just a moment. also a short time ago word that the belgian capital will remain at the nation's high he is alert level through tomorrow. schools and subways will remain closed. here in france we're getting a new photograph of the suspected suicide bomber. and new word today, a new interview, the brother of one of the suspected terrorists in the paris attacks saying his brother was not radicalized. so a lot going on at this hour but let's start in brussels where the prime minister said after more than an hour-long meeting with his ministers tonight that there is still high
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concern over a specific threat of a paris-style attack there. with multiple teams targeting shopping centers and businesses. so right now residents are ending a second straight day living under virtual lockdown. the belgian prime minister said the tight security will continue at least through monday with schools and subways closed. nbc's ron mott is live in brussels, and, ron, i know this is just starting, fast developing, but what can you tell us about this police activity there? >> reporter: there's quite a bit of police activity here, chris. i don't know how well you can see or how far down this block behind me, but for the past two hours or so police have cordoned off this area. we don't know exactly what's going on beyond two or three blocks down this way. they have pushed us back another half a block here in the past 30 minutes or so, and we don't know what they're looking for, if they've got a building surrounded, but the guidance
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we've been given is folks who are in restaurants and businesses and in their homes along this perimeter were told to stay inside and away from windows. that's about all the detail we can perhaps provide to you. there are some people we've encountered here in the downtown area trying to get back home. i met a gentleman who was walking up to us and wondering what was going on. he said he got locked out of his neighborhood so he has to figure out where to go until this activity is over. now, you mentioned the prime minister. it was a busy, busy day here in brussels. a series of security meetings. they're going to keep the threat level at its highest level for the time being which is four in the city of brussels. it's three elsewhere in the country. here is a little bit of what the prime minister had to say. i think in some ways trying to calm some of the frustrations that are starting to grow. listen. >> translator: everything is being put in place to find to a normal life again, military and police and all the security services are mobilized in this
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difficult task. the investigation is ongoing 24/7. we are on alert and we follow the situation hour by hour. >> reporter: so, chris, the word going forward is that tomorrow, again tomorrow afternoon, they're going to reassess security again. as you mentioned, this is the first workweek since they've gone -- first workday since they've gone to that shutdown of the transportation system of mass transit because they believe that is a target for whoever is perhaps plotting something against the city of brussels. so schools will be closed. the subways will be closed, and they will reassess again sometime tomorrow afternoon whether to extend the subway closure into tuesday, but this is going to have a significant effect on the local economy and folks who have essential jobs have to find a way to get into the downtown area because mass transit is the preferred method of transit in the brussels area.
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it's going to be a very stressful day no doubt here in the capital. chris? >> and a stressful night right now. ron mott just behind those police lines in brussels. northbound lets g now lets get to that new photograph with police are asking for help identifying this man, the third suicide bomber at the stad defrance. kelly cone yea ya joins me. >> reporter: police have identified or spotted three suicide bombers. they've identified one of the three as a frenchman. the other two are believed to have crossed over to europe through greece. their fingerprints matched those taken at the border. one is carrying a syrian passport. the second is this man. the bcc is reporting he goes by the name m. alma mud but that has not been confirmed. police are asking for any information about the name of
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this man, the third suicide bomber. >> part of what caused them to go to saint deny was always that came in. there was a series of intelligence that came together but they have been getting some response when they put out these kinds of alerts. >> that's right. in fact, they got a response on abdeslam when his picture was put out. someone recognized him at saint deny or recognized a passport that he was carrying in saint deny and called police. he was at or someone was at a post office. there was a raid at the post office. turns out nobody was there by the time police got there and there was no confirmed sighting but when they 3u9 out these pictures, they do end up getting tip tips. >> let's talk about the atmosphere here again tonight. we've talked about this for a week. how many people continue to come out to the memorial here but there also has been a very visible police presence this weekend here in paris. >> there has. you notice it everywhere. you notice it when you go into stores, into cafes, bags are
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checked, police are on the streets. sometimes it's just a couple of police officers on the corner. sometimes it's soldiers on the corner. >> military as well, that's right. >> yes, with heavy weapons. you cannot not notice it on the streets of paris, chris. earlier today actually there was an impromptu demonstration, demonstrations are banned until november 30th but there was a huge group of hundreds marching down the street behind us chanting in support of refugees, and you saw the police presence there. there were probably four or five at least crowd control officers in very large vans following this crowd the entire time. >> meantime, there is still as we said one of the suspected bombers who is on the loose and his brother gave an interview today. let's listen to a little bit of that. >> translator: i want to tell him that we are not afraid. that is partly why i'm talking
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to the press. we would like salah to hand himself in. >> translator: but what does he have to lose? why would he hand himself in? >> translator: so he can give us the answers we are waiting for, we, his family, but also the families of the victims. and all the other people who are looking at us. we would rather see salah in prison than in a cemetery. >> so the one of his brothers is dead during the attacks. one of them still on the run. what struck you about that interview? >> well, the fact that he said he doesn't believe that his brothers were radicalized. he believes they were manipulated. >> brainwashed i think. >> exactly. he said they weren't the type to be extremely religious. what he saw or what the family saw as being a little bit more observant as a muslim, they didn't take as radicalization. they talk it as simply young men calming down, coming into their own, if you will. so he doesn't see the
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radicalization there, at least that's what he's telling the public, and he's also putting out this call, chris, because he believes that his brother backed out of the attacks, that salah backed out of the attack and is now afraid to turn himself in. there have been various media reports on this over the past couple days, that he may be afraid to turn himself in because he fears for what may happen to his family, that isis operatives or sympathizers would attack his family. that's part of what we heard was this appeal to his brother saying we're okay, we're safe. >> kelly, thank you so much for being here with us tonight. meantime, president obama is in the air right now. he's heading back to the u.s. after a week overseas. he did hold a news conference before he left where he essentially accused republicans of helping isis because of their views on syrian refugees. he's already said he will veto a bill that was passed by the house that largely blocks syrian refugees from coming to the u.s. >> prejudice and discrimination helps isil and undermines our
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national security, and we can all do our part by upholding the values of tolerance and diversity and equality that help keep america strong. >> joining me now, congresswoman darren bass, democrat from california, and a member of the house foreign affairs committee. it's always good to see you congresswoman. this has been a very divisive debate over refugees. what do you make though of any implication that the republicans share some blame, that their rhetoric fuels isis? is that a bridge too far? >> well, i don't know if it's a bridge too far, but i do have to say i was very disappointed in my republican colleagues because the legislation that was put forward that we voted only the other day in my opinion was a political piece of legislation because they know very well that syrian refugees are not crossing our borders by the hundreds. as a matter of fact, it takes two years of a screening process before a refugee would even come to the united states, and then 98% of the refugees that come
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are women and small children. so i think that they fueled the hysteria and i think any time we do that we play into the hands of the terrorists. >> well, as you know, republicans are ramping up their calls to stop the refugees from come in. it still has to go to the senate for a vote. let me play to you what mike mccaul had to say about this today. >> sure. >> i take isis at its word when it says we want to exploit the refugee program to infiltrate the west. we know one or possibly two of these attackers in paris actually came through the refugee program, and so that's why in congress we said, you know, let's put a brake on this until we have assurances and have confidence we can properly vet and do background checks. >> he, of course, the chairman of the house homeland security committee. do you feel confident in saying that no one who is affiliated with isis, no one who could do
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harm, has a chance to get in with this refugee population because those who voted the opposite way that you did on this legislation say we can't give those assurances and we can't take that chance. >> i certainly felt very comfortable with my vote, and like i said before, i believe it was a political ploy that the republicans did in putting this legislation forward and that many people vote for legislation like this because they know if they don't, it's going to come back and bite them when they run for re-election next year, and i'm surprised by representative mccaul to say that because my understanding of the people who led the horrific attacks in france, that they were not syrian, and that one had a fake syrian passport, but the reality is, again, a person who wants to come to our country has to go through a two-year screening process before they even come to the united states. i think if we were going to look at anything, we might look at the visa waiver program because that is a lot easier to get in the united states, but i think
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calling a halt or a pause to the program right now is really inappropriate, and you even have leading republicans who say so. condoleezza rice spoke out against what the republicans did this week. >> so we will see what happens when the senate comes back as well. karen bass, always good to see you. >> thank you. >> thank you. let's take a live look at a street in brussels, belgium, where a police operation is under way right now. we're keeping an eye on it. we'll bring you new information as it becomes available. also coming up, where does isis get the money to carry out its attacks? that's coming up live from paris. s more than just a town. s more than just a town. this is our home. and small business saturday... is more than just a day. it's our day... to shop small at the places we love... with the people we love. for stuff we can't get anywhere else. and food that tastes like home. because the money we spend here... can help keep our town growing. on small business saturday, let's all shop small. for the neighborhood,
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back live in paris. $40 million, that's how much
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isis earns producing and exporting oil every month. that according to new numbers from the u.s. treasury, and that's not its only source of income. joining me now, loretta napoleoni, the author of "the islamist phoenix." loretta, it's good to see you. thank you for coming in. and i guess it's not surprising that so much of isis' money comes from oil, but there are lots of other funding sources, aren't there? >> yes, absolutely. about 20% of their gdp comes from oil. the rest comes from other businesses that they tax. you must remember that there are 8 million people living inside the caliphate, and these people trade, live, eat, and do whatever they do, and the caliphate raises taxes. >> so as you know, there's been a lot of bombing going on to disrupt those oil revenues, but given that they're so diversified, if one part of
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their funding drys up, do they have enough with the rest of it to keep going? >> oh, absolutely. you must remember that this is a war era, so there is a lot of smuli smuggling taking place. the islamic state also controls water resources which are f fundamental in that area and also rich arable lantds. these are the two other important revenues. >> what about funding from arab states? >> very, very little. they stop funding the islamic state in 2013 when it became independent, and then it became, of course, a political force threatening the stability of the area. there are some money coming from private donors from the gulf, but it's very little, and the money is carried overland in cash in suitcases, so we can't
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do anything to stop that. >> earlier this week the hacker group anonymous said that they were looking into isis' financing, and one of the things they saw was a large holdings in bitcoin. they think that they could potentially disrupt that part of the operation. how important could that be? >> i doubt it actually that bitcoin is going to be an investment for the islamic state. this is a war economy, so everything is done in cash. it is possible that some of the arab -- rich arab donors, individuals, have used bitcoins to transfer money from one place to another place, but then, you know, what do you do with the bitcoins in the middle of the islamic state? i don't think that is going to be so relevant as anonymous is saying. >> loretta, do you think that anyone has a good handle on how much money they really have? what's the best estimate you've
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heard? >> no, i don't think we know. i think the $2 billion could be a good stim bestimate but we co also say maybe it's $1.5 billion, 2.5 b$2.5 billion. it is what they think is a state. they control it, territory. 8 million people, so it is feasible to say that it is $2 billion, but more important than how much money they have is how to manage this money. that's the key. and so far they're doing very well. >> well, let me ask you where we think it is because one of the things we've heard from some of the republican presidential candidates in particular is that they think that they have ways that they could go in and essentially stop them from having access to their money, but is their money held in traditional ways that that could actually happen? >> no, i don't think we can go in and stop the money. the money is not moving from one bank to another bank.
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the money is moving in cash as it happens in any war economy. so i really think that the only possible way to have destroy the state, so to destroy the institution, to destroy the structure, but doing that will have also to destroy the people living there, meaning the civilian casualty will be very, very high because they're part of this economy. they are part of this exchange of money that takes place every day. >> loretta, the book is "the islamist phoenix," thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. and coming up, officials hold what they call a vitally necessary terror drill in new york city. we'll have a live report on that coming up. (vo) what does the world run on? it runs on optimism. it's what sparks ideas.
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attacks many years ago, american police and homeland security and federal agencies have constantly been adjusting with everything we learned from these events, paris, mali, we're building all of that into these exercises going forward. >> that was new york police commissioner bill bratton a little earlier today joining, as you saw, the homeland security secretary jeh johnson on this morning's "meet the press." now, both men were in new york city to monitor an nypd counterterror exercise focused on threats ranging from an active shooter to someone who might be wearing a suicide vest. msnbc's adam reese is live in manhattan where he was following these drills. adam, how involved were today's exercises and have we gotten any assessment from officials about how that all went? >> reporter: chris, this was very real. a number of different scenarios played out in this active shooter drill. in the first one there were two shooters on the platform
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shooting at innocent civilians. two transit officers respond, they take them out. there are a number of casualties and then the fire department comes in and deals with those casualties. in the second incident, again there were two shooters, but this time there was one shooter and one person with a suicide vest. obviously they had to handle that in a much different way, and, again, the fire department comes in and brings out the casualties. we actually saw those casualties, injured people come out onto the street level, and, again, this was just a drill, but they have to act as if this was very real. a number of different agencies were here. the fbi, secret service, the u.s. army, and as you mentioned homeland security. the secretary was here for the drill and he spoke afterwards. here is what he had to say. >> we know of no specific credible threat of a paris-like attack directed against the u.s. homeland. we are and we continue to be and we have been concerned about copycat-like attacks as the
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director said on thursday. we're concerned about the type of attack we've seen by a so-called lone wolf. this type of exercise is something to address that. >> reporter: now, the critical response team, a newly formed team here as part of the counterterrorism force, was part of this operation. 500 officers newly trained. they have heavy weapons. they have prodirectitectionprot vehicles and phones. this is part of the counterterrorism strategy here in new york city. commissioner bratton said he's going to send a team to paris when everything settles down. he twoonts learn lessons from what happened in paris including how the suicide vests were made and if they used encrypted apps to talk to each other, the terrorists. he wants to know how those apps work and how they're able to avoid detection. he wants to make sure what happened in paris doesn't happen here in new york. chris? >> msnbc's adam reiss. thank you so much for that.
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still to come on msnbc, president obama with tough words for the islamic state as he vows to destroy them. we'll have a live report from the white house coming up. ter ce for her she's agreed to give it up. that's today? we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. after the deliveries, i was ok. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. more pills? seriously? seriously. all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. can i get my aleve back? for my pain, i want my aleve. get all day minor arthritis pain relief with an easy open cap. it takesi'm on the move..p. to all day long...ss. and sometimes, i just don't eat the way i should. so i drink boost to get the nutrition that i'm missing.
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i'm chris jansing live this sunday from paris where it is 9:30 p.m., and new information coming in to msnbc in the aftermath of the attacks here. belgian's prime minister says brussels will remain at the nation's highest alert level. the subways will remain closed, schools will not open tomorrow. meantime, here in paris, french national police posted the picture of a third person they're trying to identify in connection with the attacks. and republican presidential candidate donald trump said today he would absolutely bring back waterboarding. >> so you'd bring back waterboarding? >> i would bring it back, yes. i would bring it back. i think waterboarding is peanuts compared to what they do to us. >> the u.n. has deemed
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waterboarding torture. meantime, president obama has ordered an investigation into whether reports he was given on the military campaign against isis were altered to give a more rosy assessment of the situation on the ground. "the new york times" says those reports were changed. >> one of the things i insisted on the day i walked into the oval office was that i don't want intelligence shaded by politics. i don't want it shaded by the desire to tell a feel-good story. i don't know the details of this. what i do know is my expectation, which is the highest fidelity to facts, data, the truth. >> nbc white house correspondent kristin welker is live at the white house for us. kristin, a lot of questions have been raised about whether the president has underestimated the strength of isis. now these reports, did he get faulty information? can you tell us? >> reporter: well, look, as the
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president said, he wants to let the investigation play itself out before weighing in on whether he was given false reports, but, chris, in addition to what you just played, the president also said that he urged his top advisers to never hold back in terms of giving him information. but this certainly complicates the picture for the white house according to a recent abc news/"washington post" poll, 57% of americans say they disagree with president obama's strategy for fighting isis. only 35% say they support it. and today he was criticized from his former defense secretary, chuck hagel, who said the administration needs to focus more on fighting isis, less on assad. take a listen to what he had to say. >> i don't think you're going to find a resolution to assad until you figure out how you're going to deal with isis and you bring the different groups, elements, countries, leaders together on some unification. we're going to have differences with iran for years and years, with russia or years, but you can't let those differences
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dictate or you can't become captive to the differences. >> reporter: during this past week in asia, chris, president obama has defended his strategy for fighting isis noting that isis has lost 20% to 25% of its territory. he is traveling back to the united states as we speak. when he gets here, back to the white house, there is no doubt the national security, the fight against isis will be at the top of the agenda. meanwhile, major cities across the u.s. remain on heightened alert in the wake of the paris attacks. >> on that agenda on tuesday, a meeting with french president francois hollande in the oval office. what are we expecting? >> reporter: a significant meeting between the two leaders. it comes after president hollande launched a new round of air strikes in part with the help of u.s. intelligence. this meeting on tuesday will be a chance for these two leaders to reassert their commitment to one another, to the fight against isis, and also for the u.s. to redouble its efforts in terms of helping with the
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investigation into the paris attacks. chris? >> kristin welker at the white house for us. thank you. mentime, more pushback on the administration's isis strategy from a key member of the democratic party. now, the president has often urged patience saying this is a battle that will take years but senator dianne feinstein wants the u.s. to take a stronger stand. >> i'm concerned that we don't have the time and we don't have years. we need to be aggressive now because isil is a quasistate. isil has 30,000 fighters. it's got a civil infrastructure. it's enormously strong, and it has to be dealt with in a very strong manner. this has gone on too long now, and it has not gotten better. it's gotten worse. >> joining me now, james jeffrey, former u.s. ambassador to iraq. mr. ambassador, it's good to see
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you, and i want to start by getting your reaction to what senator feinstein just had to say, that the situation with isis is getting worse, we don't have time, and we don't have years. what do you think? >> i couldn't agree more. very important thing she said is that isis is a state. it has a military force. that has to be crushed. we have not succeeded in doing this, and we're not going to until we use a lot more american military power partnered with our allies and friends in the region and in europe. >> does american military power in your mind mean that we have to have more ground troops in? >> absolutely. much of it can be done by a much more aggressive use of air power, special forces teams, and advisers with local arab and kurdish forces, but some american combat forces must be involved basically as a s.w.a.t. team to go after very high-priority targets, but also
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to encourage other people. who are we to tell other people to fight and we're not willing to? >> so what is your assessment overall of what the strategy is now or are you on the side of some people who say the problem is that this administration hasn't had a strategy? >> the administration had a strategy. it had -- it was basically containment plus. as the president alluded to a week ago thursday before he was corrected by his own staff. and the hope was that over time, he cited years, pressure on financial flows, which we've just heard on your program earlier is very hard to cut, pressure on extremist propaganda, pressure on the flow of recruits would basically dry up isis and we could leave it to rot on the vine, and that hasn't turned out to be true. that's what we've seen in paris
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with the russian aircraft and a lot of other examples of attacks over the last few months. >> so the fight against isis is going on on a lot of different fronts, going on diplomatically as you said, financially, but when you look at everything that's out there, anti-propaganda, going up against their very successful recruitment in social media, is it -- do you think that the very first thing and the most important thing is going to have to be military? >> yes, in two senses -- defensive, that's what we see in paris and brussels, that's what we're seeing in the united states to protect ourselves, and in the region to stop new isis military advances, but you also have to take down this state. the best propaganda isis has is the facts it has a state and it's defying this whole coalition of 65 states. take that away. you do two things. you smash its ability to launch
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terrorist attacks and to control people, and you take away its aura of invincibility. that's what it has. it stood up to the united states for a year and a half and that makes a huge impression on people. >> and finally, ambassador, let me ask you about the front page story in "the new york times," questions about the possible changing of intelligence reports to give a more positive spin, that the u.s. was actually gaining more ground in the fight against isis than it really was. do you think it's possible the president was making decisions about how to proceed based on falsified evidence, phony assessments? >> no, i do not. now, there are several investigations going on focused on the centcom intelligence staff. let's let those go on, but the president has intelligence from many sources, cia, dia, state department, various military organizations, and diplomatic reporting from the many ambassadors around the world.
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i know a fair amount about this reporting, and it was all in all dire. >> ambassador james jeffrey, a pleasure to have you on the program. thank you so much. coming up, isis renews threats against france. why this country has become a prime target for the terror group. it's more than the cloud.
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another isis video released this weekend has more threats against france calling this country their number one target and warning the worst is yet to come. french officials say france is feeling increasingly isolated in the fight against isis because so far no other european country has joined france in air strikes against isis in syria. now, this week french president hollande is holding critical meetings with british prime minister david cameron, then president obama, and finally russian president vladimir putin in hopes of creating a stronger coalition to fight isis.
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joining me is vivian walt, reporter for "time" magazine. thank you for coming in. where do you assess the importance of these meetings president hollande is having with other world leaders? >> i think it is critical. he cannot afford to be way up there alone. firstly, at home he's a very unpopular president, we should not forget. there's a mod of solidarity in this country but generally speaking he's one of the most unpopular presidents in french history so he really doesn't have the country behind him to go out and fight a long, bitter, costly war in the middle of high unemployment without knowing that he's got really, really strong allies to count on. >> what's the strongest argument he has, if indeed he is feeling isolated, the french are feeling isolated? how does he go in and change the equation? >> i think his strongest argument is it could have been you. it could be any one of us. and i think that argument he has no problem in putting over.
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he's made it quite clear he wants to in his words obliterate isis and that the whole world should do this, that this is a global fight. it's one of the very, very first things he said on that friday night. you know, even while they were kind of mopping up the blood here on the streets of paris, he went on national television and said this is a global fight. it's the whole world's fight. it's not just france's fight. >> from the french perspective, americans have a very skeptical view of the role russian president vladimir putin tends to play in all this. what's his angle. but from the french perspective, what's the role for russia and what's the relationship between hollande and putin? >> you know, france has always for many years and in many conflicts played a kind of go-between role. they have had a far less bitter history with russia and let's not forget russia has just lost 224 people in that jet that was shot down over sinai.
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so i think hollande is prepared to give putin the ben fiefit ofe doubt, although not quite so much he wouldn't go to moscow. he's going to moscow to make sure he has putin squarely in the anti-isis camp and not just simply bombing moderate rebels, for example. >> so in a realistic assessment of what might happen, the idea is that you brings france, you bring the united states, you bring russia together against this common enemy, but what might a coalition actually look like in reality? >> well, you have europe's biggest warship, the charles de gaulle, the french warship which is now we learned today just arrived and is ready to start -- >> 24 fighter jets on board, right? >> exactly. that's triple the number of french jets that have so far been able to strike out at isis. you have considerable french firepower in the region. i mean, france was the one that led the air strikes in libya,
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for example, against gadhafi. they know how to do this, but they cannot do it alone, and domestically they cannot afford to do it alone. >> in the meantime you mention how unpopular president hollande has been, but given what they have endured, how much support is he likely to get from the french people moving forward on this. >> actually there were opinion polls out which shows a big bump in his popularity, the biggest number in terms of his popularity maybe for a couple of years, and that's obvious that, you know, the whole mood in this country is to rally around the president at the moment, but that's temporary, and it's fragile, and he's gone to the country on two occasions now in the last week to say we need you to be patient, and it's very hard for people to be patient. they've gone through a long recession, unemployment is more than 10% in this country. it's particularly high among young people and particularly high among young muslim people.
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so he's dealing with domestic urgencies, if you like, that in some ways conflict directly with what he has to do militarily. >> and one of those urgencies clearly is that tourism is a significant part of the gdp. no country gets more tourists than france does, and we know already from talking to restaura restauranteurs, they're taking huge hits, 50%, 60%, 70%. how big a concern is that? >> i think it's very concerning right now. the big test will be next week with the climate talks. we have 100 heads of state who are supposed to be here next sunday and monday -- >> right. >> and if they are prepared to all arrive, i think you will see tourists come back here. >> vivian, good to have you here again. thank you so much. >> you're welcome. >> americans are already seeing an increased security presence at airports. what that means for your thanksgiving travel plans coming up.
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paris, but back in the states this week is by far the busiest travel week of the year. tens of millions of people expected to hit the road for thanksgiving, but heightened concerns over security after the terror attacks here in paris as well as bad weather have already hampered plans for people who are trying to get out of town early. nbc's john yang is in chicago. john, how is it looking there? >> reporter: well, the crowds behind me tell the story right now here at o'hare airport. a lot of these people scheduled to fly yesterday, but with the wind, the snow, the rain, the ice, hundreds of canceled flights, hundreds more delayed. the airline industry is predicting record travel this thanksgiving season. the most since 2008 and the great recession, in addition to weather, security is a big concern after the events in paris.
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t tsa says to expect heightened security and they're advising folks to get to the airport two hours ahead of their flight time. you'll also see heightened security on amtrak, uniformed officers, k-9 units not only in the stations, but also on the trains between the stations, but 89% of the 47 million americans expected to hit the road this week, this thanksgiving week will do it on the highways, they'll drive. one big reason, the cheapest gas since 2008, $2.15 a gallon around the country, that's 65 cents lower than last year and for those folks, the big concern will be the weather. winter may be weeks away on the calendar, but in the midwest, winter weather is already here. back to you. >> nbc's john yang at a very busy o'hare airport tonight. thanks so much.
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now let me bring in frank salufo director of cyber and homeland security at george washington university. thanks very much for joining us. and you just heard that report from john yang. what do you expect people will see at airports, what kind of security can they expect? >> clearly, security will be tighter and they'll be buttoning up and do give yourself extra time because clearly patience will be a virtue everyone will have to have. it will be visible, a show of force in terms of steps that will be taken as well as some that don't necessarily meet the eye. you'll see greater intelligence and information sharing not only between the united states and our allies and elsewhere and there have been some major improvements in the ability to track and identify potential threats in terms of travelers in the past. so i do think there will be a visible show, but i also think
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much of what's going on will be behind the scenes. >> what have been the concerns behind the scenes that perhaps they weren't addressing as significantly as what we saw all of us who go through security at airports around the states? >> you know, i think it's important to recognize before the hostile and horrific attacks in paris. you did have a metrojet airline go down and here that sort of demonstrated that not only did isis have the intent, but they also had the capability to engage in these sorts of attacks. so clearly, that is a consideration that underpins a lot of this and the best defense is always going to be good intelligence in addition to taking the threat to the ader havary to looking to proactive steps that will be taken. it will be predicated on good and hard information and intelligence that is being gleaned. now i think it's worth noting
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that the threat, in terms of scale and scope, it is very different in the united states than say in europe where you've had thousands of europeans join up with isis, many of whom have received training and many of whom have also returned to their home country. so the scale and scope you've had american, as well, but not nearly as the same level that you've seen coming out of europe. meanmeantime, we focus a lo the airports and i recently took the eurostar from paris to london and the security getting on the train was multiple layers of checks, but what do you expect to see around amtrak, for example? >> you will see elevated security with amtrak, as well. probably more random searches and i.d. checks and certainly baggage checks. as you noted, rail historically has been the terrorist target of choice and that is something you
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will see, i think, added security and you will probably also see the physical security at bridges and tunnels and a greater law enforcement presence at these sites, as well. >> how would you assess the overall concern over the threat of isis in the intelience and security community in the u.s.? >> that's a very good question. up until recently, most people were under the assumption that isis was focused on the near enemy, to take territory, hold that territory and focus its efforts in the region. clearly, they also have not only the intent, but also the capability to project and take the fight overseas, and this is a big sea change in terms of what it is we're seeing right now. so the homeland nexus, while there are no known imminent
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threats, clearly, there is a general threat and we need to take the issue very seriously, not only now, but moving forward, as well. >> and be patient during this holiday travel season. frank salufo. >> and be patient. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. when we come back at the top of the hour we'll bring you the laye e latest situation in brussels and stay with us for msnbc's continuing coverage live from paris. when heartburn hits
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i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary, oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment, and never quit. ♪ you didn't expect this did you? no i didn't. the nissan altima. there's a fun side to every drive. nissan. innovation that excites. i'm chris jansing live in paris with new developments in the aftermath of the terror attacks in paris. right now in brussels there is a heavy police presence as the city faces a serious threat of a paris-style attack. the city will stay at maximum alert, subways and schools will remain closed tomorrow. we'll have the latest coming up in a live report. who is this man? french police release a picture of the third suicide bomber at the stadium last week and ask
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the public for help in identifying him as the search continues for the mastermind. and a deep dive into the campaign against isis and the u.s. strategy. what are we doing to counter the propaganda and the financing and how can we use diplomacy and the military to fight back? let's start, though, in brussels where residents have been told to shelter in place because of an imminent threat. ron mott is there. ron, what can you tell us about all of this police activity? >> reporter: hi, chris. it's been a very busy day for security forces here in the capital city. this particular activity behind us, we believe, is over for the moment because we've been out here a couple of three hours now in the street back there that was closed during that time has reopened to pedestrian and vehicular traffic, so this particular scene, we still don't know officially what this was all about appears to be over. >> we are also just learning that there are reports of gun
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fire elsewhere in the city and that police have responded to a location elsewhere in the city and helicopters in the air and we'll try to get more information as we go throughout the hour, chris, but it has been a second day with the capital city brussels on virtual lockdown for the second day in a row. the terror threat is at four, mass transit and a lot of places where people congregate, restaurants, shopping centers are essentially abandoned. there are some people milling around downtown and we're seeing more soldiers and police presence downtown and what the prime minister in giving the word again today that they're going to remain at level four says that tomorrow, the first day of the workweek the subways will be closed again tomorrow. this will have a significant impact on the people to get into town from the outlying areas and they will reassess the security situation again tomorrow afternoon and presumably update the public on where things stand. the prime minister thanked the public for heeding warnings to shelter in place and don't come
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out to if you don't have to, and to avoid large crowds and he asked them to have a handle on these threats that are available. >> i may have lost your return here so i'll send it back to you now in paris. >> ron mott having difficulty hearing us, but we appreciate that, ron. thanks so much. meantime, the two gunmen who attacked a hotel in mali had kalashnikov rifles, explosives and a huge stockpile of ammunition and that's according to a malian commander and they're still searching for the people involved. keir simmons has more. >> reporter: they are still hunting the attackers who laid siege to the hotel just along the road here and one of those who was trapped in that siege is a woman that i've just been speaking to, an american woman who works for the cdc. now she has been in west africa
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at times to fight ebola and she's even here in mali on a project developing ways to stop epidemics like ebola. incredibly, she was in that hotel, in the breakfast room having breakfast early with some colleagues. she left to go and get her bag before setting off to the airport when the gunmen struck. they struck in the lobby and in the very breakfast room where kathy had been. she says she heard gun fire and then louder gun fire and then the gunmen were in her corridor. terrifyingly, they tried her door and they knocked softly at her door. she says that she heard them talking at times in english and she thinks perhaps one of the attackers may have been a woman. she told us her story. here's how she described it. >> i heard more firing, and i was in contact with the regional security office in atlanta and
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here, and my boss and sent an email to my husband, and just waited it out. >> what did you say in the email to your husband? >> i was short. i said i think there's something going on here, but i wanted you to know that i love you, and that was when the firing was from the lobby, but there was a time when there was firing in our hallway, and i got back on the email, and i said i think the assailants are coming down the hall, and i want you to know i love you and to let the family know i love them. i'm glad i've done my work the way i'm supposed to, but i also said -- you sent that? you didn't need to do that. >> how close did they get? >> well, i heard gunshots in the hallway. there was a knock -- they did light knocks on the door.
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my door was lightly knocked and the door handle was jiggled. was that them? i have to presume it was, but i didn't see them. i wasn't getting anywhere near that door to find that out. so could it have been somebody else? yes, but probably not. >> today, i had the opportunity to speak to the president of mali when he visited the hotel there, by the way, inside you can smell the smoke with those jihadists tried to set fire to that breakfast room. the president says the operation to rescue people here is an example to the world. soldiers from mali, the french and even to american security agents worked together to go and get people out. the president says that should be an example to the world to pull together to fight against isis and al qaeda. chris? >> kathy's bravery is an example, as well. keir simmons, thank you so much.
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in the meantime, let's talk about what's going on in paris. french police are asking for help to find out who this man is. they say he is the third attacker involved at the stadium in france and the national police posted a photo on twitter hoping someone will come forward to identify the suicide bomber. we're also hearing more tonight about the brother of one of the last suspects on the run, salah abdeslam's brother says he doesn't think that his sibling was necessarily radicalized. instead, he think, he might have been manipulated. nasda nbc's kelly cobiella is here. what can you tell us? >> it was the second plea for his brother to turn himself in, that was really the focus, but mohamed abdeslam went further. he talked about brahim abdeslam who blew himself up at one of the cafes. salah decided to not go through with the attack. he feels very strongly about
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that, and he doesn't believe, and his family does not believe that his brother was radicalized. >> translator: you say that you did not see or suspect anything? you told me you saw a slight change six months ago? >> translator: yes. a slight change, but a change that was not worrying even for me or for the other members of my family. >> translator: what was the change? >> translator: when your brothers start praying it is not necessarily a radicalist change. when they say they are going to stop drinking, it is not radicalist. we thought that they simply wanted to be a bit more respectful in terms of their religion. >> translator: they were visibly radicalized? >> they were radicalized. >> and mohamed abdeslam also put
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out yet another plea for his brother to turn himself in. he addressed the interviewer and said, look, i want him to know that we're safe, the family is safe. there have been several reports in the media that salah is potentially worried about the safety of his family that if he turns himself in that they may be at risk by some sort of isis operative. >> we have a new picture put out by french police, the third bomber. what can you tell us about that? >> this person is believed to be the bomber at the stade de france. one has been identified as a frenchman that goes by the name of bilal hafdi. the other two are believed to have traveled through europe through greece and they were identified at the border, but we don't have names yet, chris. one was carrying, we believe, a syrian passport which may have been a forgery. this is the second person who came in through greece. police put out this alert via twitter today and in other ways asking for any sort of information if anyone recognizes
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this man. they're being looking for a name, chris. >> kelly cobiella, thank you so much. the paris attacks continue to reverberate all around the world including capitol hill. senator dianne feinstein who is on the senate on intelligence pushed against the terrorist group. >> i'm concerned that we don't have the time and we don't have years. we need to be aggressive now because isil is a quasi state. isil has 30,000 fighters. it's got a civil infrastructure. it's got funding. it's spreading in other countries and it's a big, big problem. >> i'd like to bring in lethal curry and he's director of the middle east and north african research at flash point and an msnbc analyst. good to see you again.
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>> thank you. >> brussels at this hour still on high alert and they'll stay on high alert at least through tomorrow and we're seeing police activity on the streets right now telling people don't leave your apartments. what does that tell you about just how precise the information is that they have right now? >> look, i think it's two things. one, that they might have intelligence that they glean from post attacks in paris and possibly information from the discarded cell phone that they found, possibly cross referencing those names and phone number, but also, let's not forget some of the attackers came from belgium and they have at least one person who is at large and who might be armed and dangerous, but you can look at a scenario when they're possibly squeezing him into a corner or letting the public know whether they have information on him. so putting that lie alert there might lead the public to identify him and keeping his
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picture roaming throughout the entire media outlets that you have out there. you might have some intelligence, where it might be in a specific city, but might be in the right location. >> there was a report that there was a map in the car with him, that he was in the kr with abdeslam, and that he had something bulky under his coat and they thought it would be a suicide vest or suicide belt. how hard is it being able to grasp him? >> he's certainly been very elusive and every single lead that authorities have they'll follow on including the list that they have in their security systems to check on previous name -- on names of previous
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accomplices or family members. they'll have to conduct surveillance on a number of those that have been affiliated with him, but they don't have a clear picture on that. soon enough he'll get hungry and he'll want some money to even buy a ticket for a train or bus and so on. trying to squeeze him to come out including having an interview with his brother that came out in french media. >> earlier today and we were just talking about this the french put out that call for information on a man they're saying was the third paris stadium attacker. i presume that they've put his face through some sort of facial recognition software and haven't had what they consider a definitive hit yet. if they can identify him why would that be so useful? >> i think that would be extremely useful because once they have a name they can, of course, put that name in their database and look to see if they have any intelligence on him, any connection, any friend, relatives, where he's been, which colleges he attended, which schools he's been through,
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where he exactly lived and what kind of jobs he's held and what kind of countries he's traveled to and there could be intelligence that could be gleaned from running his number in security databases. >> what are the chances that could lead them to information that isis have in this part of the world. also some were long kovl attacks and now they have to see whether he's attacks in paris were just i series like isis attacked. they don't want to take a chance. >> there are people under arrest, the people in that apartment in saint-denis, where
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abaaoud was killed. what are the chances that they're getting intelligence out of that and could that be part of what's going on in brussels over the last couple of days? >> i think that is a very likely scenario that a lot of information that investigators right now are trying to get from those arrested. you know, i think they might have a lot, but i don't think they will get everything the first way. >> i think this issing if tobacco a process and ooul have essential inter interrogating them. whether they had connections with isis or isis-affiliated individuals overseas and check on the forensic analysis on all of their hard drives, cell phones and so on. so it will be a pretty lkty process, but it seems that some of the information they might have received from those individuals might have helped them in tracking down what could be an imminent threat in belgium.
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laith alkhouri. thanks, good to see you. intelligence reports misleading the commander in chief demanding answers as he wraps up his overseas trip and is on his way back to washington. our coverage live from paris will continue after a short break. 
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coming up on 20 minutes past 10:00 p.m. in paris and president obama tried to calm fears over isis and to outline the strategies he's using to defeat the islamic state. >> in addition to hunting down terrorists, in addition to effective intelligence and in addition to missile strikes and in addition to cutting off financing and all of the other
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things that we're doing, the most powerful tool we have to fight isil is to say that we're not afraid. >> but now questions are being raised about whether he's getting the right information when it comes to the fight against the terrorist g isist g. the president is asking his team to review reports. "the new york times skwo" wrote there have been changes to be more optimistic. kristin welker is at the white house. the president said those reports weren't so rosy to begin with and he's gotten a look at those reports and he actually called them dire, but still it wouldn't sit well, obviously if it turned out that were changes to the assessments that the president was getting. >> reporter: it wouldn't sit well at all. this admip stragdz has been
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heavily criticized for underestimating the threat from isis. the president has spent the past week during his diplomatic trip to asia defending his strategy and his approach. as you point out, he's clearly taking them quite differently and he doesn't want to weigh in until he knows the results of the investigation, but he did during his press conference in malaysia before he left making it very clear that he told his top advisers to never hold back on information. take a listen to what he had to say when he was asked about that report in "the new york times". >> one of the things i insisted on the day i walked into the oval office was that i don't want intelligence shaded by politics. i don't want it shaded by the desire to tell a feel-good story. i don't know the details of this. what i do know is my expectation which is the highest fiddlity to fact, data, the truth. >> reporter: now as for the
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president obama's strategy toward fighting isis, according to a recent abc news/washington post poll, 57% of americans say they don't support president obama's strategy. only 35% do. he has really been defending his strategy saying look, isis has lost 20% to 25% of its territory. he has aultlso vowed to intensi air strikes in the wake of the attacks in paris. he's traveling back to the united states as we speak and clearly, national security and his strategy to fight isis will be at the top of the agenda on tuesday. he'll hold a critical meeting with francois hollande here at the white house. >> we'll talk more about that coming up in the next hour. nbc's kristin welker, thanks so much. >> thanks. the recent round of terror attacks are raising questions about safety in the u.s. authorities from coast to coast wasting no time to make sure they're ready to respond if they have to. we'll show you exactly what they're doing. more to come, live from paris on
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hey! how are you?g? where are we watching the game? you'll see. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary, oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment, and never quit. ♪ you didn't expect this did you? no i didn't. the nissan altima. there's a fun side to every drive. nissan. innovation that excites.
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>> what a scene this morning in new york city in lower manhattan. police units ran through a counter terrorism simulation in the subway system for threats ranging from active shooters to someone wearing a suicide vest. on "meet the press" nypd commissioner bill bratton told chuck todd the vigilance from his department is constant. >> this is part of a continuing series of exercises. this was planned before the paris events, but it has certain paris elements involved in it. >> what we're doing here today in conjunction with homeland security is testing out new technology, ballistics detection, video technology, communications technology and building into it some of what we've learned from paris. >> you see the head of homeland security there jeh johnson, as
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well. adam reiss is live in manhattan and a visible level of intensity in those police exercises today. are we seeing an increased police presence in the city right now? >> reporter: we've seen that for a while, chris, especially after the paris attacks. this, in particular, was an active shooter drill and a number of scenarios down scares in the subway station below early this morning and the first scenario, two active shooters on that platform shooting indiscriminately civilians there getting into the subway. two transit robs respond immediately and they take out those two shooters and in the next scenario two shooters and one had a suicide vest. a number of casualties and a number of injuries. we saw them bring the injuries on stretchers, up to street level and they were bloody and injured. this wasn't real, this was just a deal and it looked real and they want it to seem real
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because this is how they learn. this is how they're able to better prepare for the future and a number of agencies were involved here this morning, secret service, the u.s. army, homeland security and of course, the counter terrorism team in new york, they just added 500 members and they will be heavily armed with m-4 semiautomatic weapons and heavy armored, new cars, new homes and really prepared for any eventuality in new york city and commissioner bratton said he wants to send a team to paris as soon as possible and once things settle down there so they can meet with officials and learn the lessons from paris. they want to know more about those suicide vests and they also want to learn about about what they believe were encrypted apps to what the terrorists have -- they want to make sure what happened in paris never happens here in new york city. chris? >> msnbc's adam reiss on the
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movie geeks. sports freaks. x1 from xfinity will change the way you experience tv. we're back now from the place de la republique with the latest after the terror attacks here. the city of brussels will remain at the nation's highest alert level. that city's subways will remain closed and schools will not open tomorrow, as well. meantime here in paris, the french national police posted the picture of a third person they are trying to identify in connection with the attacks at the stadium and mali's president said the way his security forces carried out the operation to tre free the hostages there is a good example of how to fight terrorism. after the attacks in paris, the
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exploded airliner and the bombing in beirut, we thought it was important to take time to focus the u.s. strategy to defeat isis. today president obama went into detail about his assessment of isis and what his administration is doing to degrade capabilities. >> i want to be very clear about this, i am not afraid that isil will beat us because of their operations. in addition to hunting down terrorists, in addition to effective intelligence and in addition to missile strikes and in addition to cutting off financing and all of the other things that we're doing, the most powerful tool we have to fight isil is to say that we're not afraid. so we want to take some time now to talk about four of the main ways the u.s. is going after isis.
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you heard the president mention some of them going after financing, propaganda, also using diplomacy and our military. here's our panel. the washington post's ann guerin who spent years covering the state department, msnbc colonel jack jacobs, calipery is editor of the msnbc discovery desk and tom keating, director for crime and security studies at the royal united sorervices institu. thank you all. i want to start with diplomacy it's been the preferred example, and it is so tricky here. you you have russia inserting itself in a different way and stepping up its air campaign and heavy on the charm offensive and even giving france a pup toe replace the dog they lost in the raid in saint-denis, here is a complicated question, where does diplomacy fit into the war against isis right now
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post-french terror attacks. >> chris, it fits in in a number of ways that stow far haven't been successful, but which the obama administration has pledged to keep trying. so for several years now the obama administration has tried to get some kind of peace talks or political settlement talks is the term they prefer going with -- within syria that could eventually lead to the regime there, and the bashar al assad regi regime. while its never come to fruition, isil, or isis, chz your acronym, has become a far greater threat than assad ever was and now the obama administration is sort of stuck trying to both get rid of assad which isn't really an active operation at the moment and fight the islamic state. putting them on the same side of the fight as assad and that's
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trico its own and then you have the addition of the russian and iranian influences. iran can be a sort of a secret, silent partner to the united states, but it isn't something that the obama administration wants to talk about a lot and russia is now in the same position. they're all fighting the same enemy in the islamic state and that puts them all on the same side as the dictator that they want to get rid of and diplomacy is key, but very fraught here. >> we have francois hollande, and then you will see him talking to the president at the white house and to moscow to talk to vladimir putin. jack jibbing be ones, a lot of these talk, obviously, focused on the military component to this, wanting to bring more help in. there has been a lot of conversation from the french about how they feel they have been abandoned, they feel isolated since they've not been getting the help they would want
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from their european partners. going forward, how do you see this military campaign taking shape and how should it take shape? >> well, in an ideal world you'd have air strikes, relentless air strikes on top of isis positions supporting the movement of a multinational force which, by the way, should include egypt and saudi arabia, taking over the areas vacated by isis which has been defeated on the ground, seizing and holding the terrain and holding it for a long time, a decade or more, long enough for stability to return and long enough for a republican form of democracy to flourish in those regions. none of that stuff's going to happen, at least partially because saudi arabia, turkey and others in the region are not going to participate in any of this, and so what we have basically is the use of tactical means in order to achieve short-term goals. we actually don't have a strategy and one should be
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mindful of remembering what louis carol once said about it, if you don't know where you're going any road will take you there, chris. >> one of those short-term goals that has been getting a lot of attention, jack, over the last couple of weeks is the targeting of the oil revenue. a lot of those bombs dropped on those -- the transport of oil within syria. tom keating, let's talk about how isis pays for all of this because even though oil is a big chunk, we saw a flashpoint report this week that certainly is not all oil. where is their money coming from? how much is it? what do we know about the self-funding of isis? >> so this is a group which as we all know has taken a lot of territory and controls a lot of population and from population comes tax, taxing the people and taxing the businesses, and i don't think really, we have come across a group that finances
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itself quite so effectively internally previously and that's frankly why the international community is druggeling to cut off the finances and there's been a lot of talk to cut off the financing in the g-20 and from the eu from the president there and fundamentally, we find it difficult to disrupt the financing and that's why this group has been able to sustain itself so effectively. >> why has it been so difficult because one of the things we've heard on the campaign trail for 2016 is if i become president and we've heard this in particular from the two business people running for president, carly fiorina and donald trump, i'm going to go after them at the sources where their money is and we're going to freeze those assets. can that be done? >> so i think that the international community has made a mistake not going after the oil assets earlier. the fact that they've managed to amass oil has allowed it to establish itself, but what are
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you going to go after? these are people in raqqah and mosul paying tax. you can hardly tell them to stop paying tax from isis. this is not a group benefitting from external funding from donations as al qaeda was. they're providing money to the group, so really, short of bombing oil assets and there's not a lot we can do to disrupt their financing in the short term. >> and one of the other ways that the u.s. has been looking to disrupt isis is counter propaganda. they have such an extensive p p propaganda set up. we've seen it in the last week and a whole series of videos and they have people working on social media, a main source of recruitment and where does the u.s. effort, calipery stand against this propaganda machine? are they beating us? >> they have the ability to reach out and affect us in the u.s. without coming to the u.s.
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and carrying out attacks and that's the real problem especially when you're talking about hitting targets with air strikes. there's no there there. technology has allowed people to be mobile. to build the video libraries and re-release videos such as shots of times square. any threat has to be taken seriously to federal authorities and the same holds true to local media. if there is a perceived threat. they have a responsibility to share that and that puts everybody in a very difficult position, and it really does return us to the sort of days where out of an abundance of caution all of the time. that's what the u.s. military is up against. we know, they told us as recently as this week they'll start targeting the media people on the ground in syria that they're able to find. >> our panel will stay with us. we have a lot more to talk about from financing to fighting on the ground. we'll be back live from paris right after this. miles.
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chris jansing live in paris. welcome back. i want to bring back our fantastic panel for more on this discussion, ann kieran, colonel jack jacobs and cal perry. i want to start with this morning from "meet the press". >> it's been a year. they're still in mosul. they're still in ramadi, they're still in raqqah. those are the areas we have to go after in order to be able to defeat isis ultimately. we have to take the territory back and we have to make sure that other countries are part of the effort to try to deal with isis. >> it was really interesting, colonel jack jacobs, military planners interviewed by "the wall street journal" suggested that to triple isis it would require 40,000 troops, air support and two months of fighting, sort of this intense
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push. leon panetta seemed to suggest there needs to be an expanded role, as well, does that sound about right to you? >> no. it sounds overly optimistic to me. i think you need 100,000 troops and if they're successful and make way for still more troops because don't forget you have to seize and hold the terrain. it always takes more resources to hold on than it does to take in the first place and as for time, i think you're talking about years. i think you're talking about maybe as much as a decade. general stanley mcchrystal once oncepined that it would take a decade or two decades and don't forget you have to hold it long enough for all the systems to get -- to be working properly and the social integration to take place and economic integration. you have to have a government develop that can take over from you and control the area. that doesn't happen overnight and it certainly doesn't happen
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in two months and at least a decade and several hundred thousand troops over that time. >> tom, even if there is a coalition effort that hurts isis on the battlefield. how difficult is it to defeat a terror organization with so much wealth and such a vast network especially given, and i think a lot of people were taken aback by these estimates that these series of attacks here in paris may have cost just $10,000. >> yes. so there's no doubt that it costs very little to wreak the kind of havoc that was brought upon paris, whether it's 10,000, $20,000 it's very little money, and i think that this is a group which, as i said before controls population. it has made commitments to maintain welfare for that population and obviously, a lot of the money that it is having to use meets those commitments and clear the garbage and provide security and so on. yes, it has gathered a lot of money and it has liabilities and
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that's one area where it has an achill achilles heel. the tax that they're paying isn't delivering the services they require. i'm not naive. i'm not saying they could be voted out. i think they could find people starting to turned against them if they're not able to get value from the taxes being exported from them. >> in the meantime, cal perry, we talked about propaganda and one of the things about isis and the suicide bombers is they constantly have these people who are willing to come and give up their lives for this cause and isis is online 24 hours a day and they're on facebook and twitter. they're able to connect with potential recruits at any given moment when they might be feeling lonely and feeling disenchanted and they wake up in the middle of the line and they're able to connect with someone who is a recruiter for isis. isis even has a 24-hour help desk of sorts. how do you counter that? >> it's a generational fight,
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and i think you make a great point which is as cheap as it is to build an attack that kills hundreds of lives it does nothing to sow discontent. they're all over the world. they're spread out and this is becoming an ideology and the society that ice sis building on the ground. so they're already influencing that next generation. we were having the discussion in the studio at the break, it will take the next generation of kids who are in public schools who are learning to code and how to be online savvy from an early age to be able to combat this because that's the premium that ice sis putting on things and they're putting a premium on the digital sphere and they're putting a premium on medium and a premium on being flashy and it helps recruit people online and it helps recruit people to carry out these horrendous attacks. >> let me ask you a big picture question and president obama who is on his way back to the white house now and obviously has a lot on his plate, but after he
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leaves the white house, this isis threat will still most likely be seen as a key national security issue. how much of his foreign policy legacy will be tied up with this? >> i think quite a great deal. he came into office pledging to end the war in iraq and not to start or get entangled in what he saw as not only a wildly unpopular adventure in the middle east, but one that really distracted from what he believed the core of american foreign policy will be are going forward. a lot of it is asia and he's on this big asia trip he finished today and you saw the pull that played out in that trip at every turn when he was trying to talk about technology and trade and all kinds of innovative forward-looking things and at every turn he also had to talk about this new threat that arose on his watch and the terrible
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terror attacks in paris, and asked to comment on each unfolding detail. that is certainly part of the role of the president, but it isn't what he wanted to be doing this week and it isn't what he wants to be doing as president as a foreign policy leader. this will definitely outlast him. >> my thanks to you and the rest of our panel, colonel jack jacobs cal perry and tom keating and fascinating discussion. thanks for coming in on a sunday. >> thank you. these attacks, think, have sparked a massive debate about refugees coming to america. we've heard what people on both sides of the political aisle have to say, but what about the people who are leaving everything behind, fleeing violence in hopes of finding a better life in olivia stearns will join me with more on that coming up next.
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the devastating terror attacks nine days ago here in france creating new obstacles for syrian refugees who are trying to find safety and build a new life. nbc correspondent olivia stearns talked to one refugee about surviving on a country on edge and olivia, you know, this has been a sea change when we first had this humanitarian crisis and we saw people by the thousands who were fleeing countries for their very lives and there was so much sympathy and so much talk about how we had to increase the number of refugees how that has changed and you wanted to talk to someone who is living this. >> yeah. initially, you're right, was there so much sympathy, but unfortunately in the wake of these attacks there was a moment of hesitation and now if anything fear. a lot of people here in france as they are doing in the united states are making the connection between the terrorists and syria and saying wait a second, we don't want to let syrian refugees in, but of course, that's pretty unfair because we know most of, if not all of the
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terrorists involved were european union citizens. i spoke to bayen and she is one of the lucky ones. she got out of syria two and a half years ago and she got an asylum visa to come here to france to join her sister, but even still, each though this is a middle-class union who speaks several different languages is finding life in france incredibly difficult and all she really wants to do is find a job. >> i'm trying to get a job. >> how hard is it to find a job? >> a lot. it's really hard. i applied for around a hundred. >> a hundred jobs. >> a hundred jobs, different plac places, hotels as a receptionist probably because i speak the french language and ngos, because of the experience i have, but nothing works.
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i've been working since my first year at college. >> you have a degree. >> yeah. it's not degree. i finished three years of law, so this is another problem because i can't finish it. i need to start all over again. >> do you think there is an opportunity for you here in france to make a new life? >> i'm trying. i don't know yet where i'm going to end, but yes, i'm trying. i'm trying hardly. >> do you feel safe here in france? >> it depends on the safe meaning. >> do you feel nervous for your security? >> i have family problems which cannot make me safe a lot, but also i -- yes, it's when i came here, it was a little bit because i was wearing hijab, actually. it wasn't that easy, but when i walk in the street i saw lots of people who actually wear hijab
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so it makes me a little bit comfortable. >> do you think you'll go back to wearing a head scarf? >> i hope so. i hope so. it's after all, it's my religion. >> so, she says if she does wear her hijab there is zero chance she'll be able to find employment in paris. she's trying everything she can, but this is one of the lucky ones and people think these refugees coming from turkey are desperately poor and the ones who got out are the ones who can afford to get out and the ones who are very poor are still there. >> olivia stearns with one woman's story. >> we'll take you next to brussels where there is a heavy police presence and residents are being told to stay inside wherever they are. the latest after the break. ? where are we watching the game? you'll see. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary, oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment,
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