tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC December 10, 2015 10:00pm-11:01pm PST
>> i could run across the hall and take all your stuff since you're not here to defend it. >> this would be the nice to do it. >> a time magazine columnist says that donald trump has more with the islamic state than he does with america. and the author of that column is kareem a b dual jabbar and he'll be my first guest. >> we had a pretty interesting couple of days. >> teflon don't trump showing no signs of slowing down. >> his numbers have remained the same or gone up a little bit. >> i don't see how it stops. the energy is with him right now. >> we have people talking, i will tell you that. >> this has put a scare in the republican establishment that trump has enough gas to get to the convention next summer. >> the party is preparing for chaos. >> he's destroying a party. it will be a generation before we can overcome this. maybe never. >> big deal. >> donald trump is an extremist
leader that came out of nowhere. attracts his followers with a radical ideology to take over the world and is actively trying to promote a war between islam and the west. >> oh, my god, hasan, he's white isis. the terrorist campaign against american ideals is winning. fear is rampant, gun sales are soaring, hate crimes are increasing, beard hipsters are being mistaken for muslims and 83% of voters believes a large scale attack is likely here in the near future. some americans are now so afraid they're willing to trade in the sacred believes that define america for some vague promises of security from the very people who are spreading the terror. go ahead and burn the constitution, you want just don't hurt me at the mall. that's how effective this terrorism is. i'm not talking about isis. i'm talking about donald trump.
those are not my words. everything i just said was written by kareem abdul-jabbar in "time" magazine. and kareem abdul-jabbar, "time" columnist, six-time nba champion and the all-time leading scorer joins us now for an exclusive interview. thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> happy to talk to you, lawrence. >> i wanted to get to many of the things that you've said in this very, very provocative peace at "time." and you make the point that using the definition of terrorism, that we -- we aren't being careful enough in understanding all the ways in which it emerges. you note in your piece, webster defines terrorism as the use of violent acts to frighten people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal, the systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion. and you say that definition fits what donald trump is doing. explain that. >> what i'm trying to say is that although mr. trump isn't
committing the violence, when the violence happens, he exploits it. instead of offering a practical and realistic solution, he's exploiting people's fear and he's doing isis' work for them. and sma that is something that we can't let him keep doing. we have to say something about it in order to maybe somehow impact it. >> you say in the peace piece, isis is trump's greatest triumph of, the perfect man churian candidate who instead of offering specific and realistic policies preys on the fears of the public, doing isis' job for them. and i've got to say, there are times when you see it and you just think, if he had an isis campaign adviser in the room, that's what isis would have advised him to say today. >> absolutely. and, you know, because of this,
we can't do anything about it because for one reason, nothing about his campaign is, let's say, illegal, because in our country, candidates aren't required to tell the truth. so he can lie to his supporters and them just let them take advantage of their gullibility. and i think that's what's happened up to this point. >> your piece is really kpasive. you've come up with several examples of what's going on with that campaign. one of the very troubling parts of it here, you mentioned, trump enjoys the endorsement of several bhiet supremacist grumed, one who explained on their website, heil, donald trump, the ultimate savior, and called for him to make america white again. donald trump as said, when it's asked, does it bother him to be compared to hitler, he said no. so i'm not sure whether it
bothers him to be the bhiet supremacists' favorite candidate. what do you think? >> i think that mr. trump is trying to take advantage of all of the gullibility that he can and get elected. that seems to be what he's doing. and he's doing a pretty good job of it. he's buffaloed a lot of people, and the problem is we don't have enough people challenging him on the basis of the factual reality of what he's saying. so people who don't agree with him, they don't b do fact checking, people keep buying it. this is going to continue until somebody has enough nerve to get in there and do something about that and challenge the lack of fact that is really -- i would say that's the touch stone of his campaign. >> you talk about muslim
americans, and this is something you've been trying to bridge the gulf onka this issue for decades now and trying to explain to people what muslims are, what they aren't, what they believe, what they don't believe. and very personally in your own case, what you believe and what you don't believe. there's this passage that -- in your article, you refer to something where president obama talked about muslims and donald trump tweeted about that. let's first listen to what the president said. >> okay. >> muslim americans are our friends and our neighbors, our co-workers, our sports heroes. and yes, they are our men and women in uniform who are willing to die in defense of our country. we have to remember that. >> and kareem, obviously, when i heard him say that, you're the first name i thought of that he was talking about. obviously muhammad ali, you can go on and on. donald trump saw that and tweeted, as you know, obama said
in his speech that muslims are our sports heros. what sport is he talks about and who? so he apparently, kareem, had no memory of ever meeting you or knowing you or that you played basketball. >> right. and we published a picture of us together that was taken in 2004. and he says that it was photoshopped and taken at an event that we were both at. >> he's denying that it's him in the picture? >> yeah. >> oh, wow. >> he says it was photoshopped. it's just another one of his many fictional stories that that's part and parcel of his campaign. >> but were you surprised in that moment that we discovered that donald trump could not imagine muslims succeeding in any american sport on any level? >> yeah, i was very surprised at that, because muslims have competed in many different sports here in america and done
very well. along with a whole lot of other athletes. >> i felt that it said much bigger about his bigotry and compartmentalization of people. it's just inconceivable to him that president obama was actually telling the truth about that when he it. >> it seems to me he doesn't want to say anything positive about a person of color, just like at the beginning of this idiotic campaign of his where he started to say that president obama was not an american citizen and he was born in kenya, something that is obviously a lie and a fiction. but he will persist with it and hold on to it as long as he can. because it exploits the fears of the people that he wants to influence and get to support hmm. so he's counting on his support and he doesn't mind what lie he tells in order to get that support.
>> you've written on facebook extensively about your religion. and you make the point that if you go into the old texts of all of the major religions you're going to find death penalties for very minor things, not observing the sabbath, you get a death penalty in the old testament, that sort of thing. it's the job of modern religion to mature out of those things, understand the fundamental message of that is try to keep the sabbath holy, forget the beth death penalty part. and islam in certain parts of the world is facing a struggle other that kind of transition, that kind of editing out of those old notions that still can be found in certain spots in the books. what would you say about how to basically speed that process worldwide in the current environment? >> i think that it has to be an outreach campaign to just communicate with muslims on a
realistic base ses as to what can be done. you know, because we have things to do to make it so that muslims don't have any grievances. just like all the other factions of our society that may or may not have a grievance, you try to find these things out and make the world better for them. muslims seem to be the last group on earth that have had the opportunity to improve their life. and this is something that's very important to them. and i think that as long as they don't have anything to hope for, nothing to live for, they don't mind dying for these really tragic and vicious causes that they invent. and, you know, we've got to do something to mitigate that and get them back to the path of growth. if we can do that, it will definitely change the template, absolutely. >> you wrote something about your experience as a muslim
american. this was shocking to me how some of your fans even treat you. you wrote, some fans still call me lou. and then seem annoyed when i ignore them. they don't seem to understand their lack of respect for my spiritual choices is insulting. they only want me to be who they want to be to decorate their world rather than an individual, like a toy action figure. you and i know you have to be over 60 years old to know that your birth name was lew alcindor. it stunned me that people would be out there clinging to that. and how can they not know that's an offensive thing to do with you? >> i don't know how that's possible. change is part of our existence. things change, people evolve, situations take a different turn opinion and this is what's
happened in my life. it happened in everyone's life. >> we're going to take a quick break and come back with more. coming up, donald trump offers another unconstitutional, impossible, illegal proposal tonight about the death penalty and a new england police union audience completely falls for it. and the war on isis, hackers are planning a big attack on the islamic state tomorrow. and later, the late senator robert f. kennedy gets tonight's "last word." the markets change, at t. rowe price, our disciplined investment approach remains. we ask questions here. look for risks there. and search for opportunity everywhere. global markets may be uncertain. but you can feel confident in our investment experience... ... around the world. call a t. rowe price investment specialist, or your advisor... ...and see how we can help you
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among republicans 42% support donald trump's pro-prose sal, while 36% of republicans oppose the idea. tonight at a campaign event in mm new hampshire, donald trump said this. >> when i talked about what i said the other day, all of a sudden i'm watching the shows this morning and i'm watching the shows tonight. trump has a point. the visa system is not working. we've got a to get down to the problems. we can't worry about being politically correct. we just can't afford anymore to be so politically correct. [ applause ]
>> back with us, kareem abdul-jabbar and sam stein, maria teresa kumar host of "changing america" by shift on msnbc. sam stein, you were laughing when donald trump said he saw everybody in the morning shows. >> i just don't know how he has time to watch so much tv. >> he's calling into all of them. >> kareem, i want to go back to the point you were talking about, this stream of lying that he does publicly all the time. he did this the other day. i was watching him do an interview with barbara walters and he said when i came out what i said about the southern border and the mexicans coming over the border, everyone attacked me and in a few weeks everyone agreed with me. and he just kept arepeats, everybody agrees with me. and this is such a lie, but in
the trump world it's such a small lie to all the other lies he's telling him in the same sen teps, that no one interviewing him keep with those lines. >> he has them all lined up. one comes right after the other. they all totally support his objective view of what's happening. which esche knows is not realistic. he's saying things that aren't there and talking about things that aren't there. but this is what we have. >> all right, let's listen to his latest absolutely crazy unconstitutional, legally impossible idea about the death penalty he suggested tonight. >> within of the first things i do in terms of executive order if i win will be to sign a strong, strong statement that will go out to the country, out to the world that anybody killing a policeman, policewoman, police officer, anybody killing a police officer, death penalty.
it's going to happen. okay? we can't let this go. [ applause ] >> we can't let this go. >> now, maria teresa, he's doing that in front of an audience of police, police union who obviously know nothing about law in america. all death penalties must be legislated by congress. we do have federal death penalties, we do have some federal death penalties for killing law enforcement officers already. no one in that room seems to know it. impossible for the president to institute a new death penalty. he gets applause from it. total lie. lies are his applause line. >> this is something he's been doing from the very beginning. do you remember when he was talking about this idea that he was going to implement attacks of people that took their jobs offshore and give them money
when they come back. it's one thing after another. for a long time, folks are complicit and laughed at him. now he's getting traction in places where people are not only saying -- not only can h he not do this legislatively, people are starting to get hurt. >> is it a lie in he doesn't know? >> that is right. he's an ignoraus. he's utter buffoon. >> but the media is -- they don't fact check him all the time. >> no, they don't. >> there's so much to fact check at any given time. i actually thought the more nuanced criticism of what he just said is that it's inherently not conservative temperature the conservative stance is to let the states decide this. he's saying no, no, no this is the going to be the purview of the federal government. we're going to dictate to the states what they can and cannot do. >> it's not even federal. the president is going to dictate. >> exactly. and my point is that if you step back for a second and you look at the totality of what donald trump proposes, a good chunk of it just is not conservative, but it's the style with which he does it, it's the flair with which he does it that draws
these people. so he can say these things, something that no republican lawmakers would do, which he has done. and you poll that stuff and you attach it to his name and republicans actually support it. >> kareem, do you have any suggestions for the media? you've been watching his interviews kp seriously, people are sitting at home in america. they're watching trump do these interviews. he gets away with 13 lies in a row and a host might try to slow him double play on one of the lies but never call it a lie because if you do, trump will never come back on your tv show. then a lot of these hosts are taking selfie pictures with trump and tweeting them. some of them begging him to come back for their next interview while this one is still going on. what is that like to watch as a viewer out there? >> it's really frustrating to watch it because you can see the lies coming out.
and until here in america, we require that our candidates tell the truth, we're going to have to deal with this issue. because unless somebody is fact checking them right there and printing it on a crawl below on the screen or some way to counteract the attempt to just snowball the american public, we're going to have to do something. so we're going to have to change the way we have our elections in order to make sure that the american people get the facts or understand that someone is trying to lie to them. >> the panicked republican party, urgent meetings about what we're going to do with this convention. probably with more delegates than anyone else. what do we do? >> until someone else splits the difference, he actually has a shot to be the nominee. but they're the ones that
breathed life into him. they basically said if he's the nominee we're going to lean up behind him. you can't have it both ways. i'll not surprised that he's so popular because he's really tap into a group of americans that don't realize how quickly the country is changing and there rant been leadership saying we have demographic leaders in the area and no one is stepping up to the conversation. if donald trump comes in and says you're absolutely right, they're the problem. this is going to happen. >> i've been wanteding to see a brokered convention. finally something would happen at a convention. actually, i remember new york
magazine asking me to write a fictional version of a broerked convention when they thought maybe hillary and obama could go into it. but this really could be it. >> you think so? i'm hedging my bet. i'm not betting anything anymore. >> if not him, then who? >> i think these processes have a way of working themselves out, even at the nader for the republican party, it still seems like once you get down to a race where it's donald trump and maybe one or two alternatives, which it eventually will become, that that 30% which he's been covering around will be a ceiling not a floor. then you have a more established candidate come in. you say he's a super villain. >> that is not bad karim. >> do i believe what? >> do you believe trump is due to failure as you said in the time magazine peas? >> that's what i'm hoping for. we don't need that style of leadership in our country. we have a lot of work to do. we've got to get it done and trump b isn't going to get us there.
>> when you take the polling out beyond republicans, he does not do well at all. >> that is good news. i hope we hear more of it. >> really appreciate it. thank you for joining us. >> two of the top nba players of all time. >> he inspired me to play basketball. you have no idea. i was an awkward lanky young little gil and i would watch kareem and i was like i can do that. but oh, my goodness. >> i modelled my jcc game after kareem, yeah. >> your inspare ration continues. >> skinny people will rise. thanks again. coming up, the offers of the world war ii isis wants.
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three years. >> send ground troops? >> you'll need ground troops, yeah. >> how many troops? would you support 10,000 ground troops? >> i would. yes, i would. >> joining us now is a research fellow and scott atran, director of research at francis national center and a senior fellow at artis international. they're authors of the piece "the war isis wants." that's a new york review of books. what was your rea. what has been your genre action to donald trump's rhetoric and especially the rhetoric lately of banning all muslims coming into the united states. >> this falls perfectly within the isis tramp. in an english language magazine "dabiq" they called the extinction of the gray zone. that's where most muslims and
even nonmuslims if they're willing to budge a little bit sit. and you have the infidels on one end and you have people like isis on the other end. and the goal is to try to extinguish that gray zone. and the way they want to do it is to create chaos in western societies. basically to convince muslims where they are in europe or the united states that they're not welcome there. this you can't live in the land of infidels. you will never be treated fairly. they will persecute you. and so they want to carry out attacks. there's a tacit alliance between certain more nationalist right wing groups, especially in europe, and these jihadist nighters, specifically isis.
and as these groups get more popularity and they tighten up their borders and the anti-muslim rhetoric increase, this increases the marginalization that muslims feel and what isis hopes is that they will come and join the caliphate. >> in that area of religious life, where someone doesn't accept every little thing in the most extreme orthodox interpretation of it and yet is not a proponent to this. to put it in catholic term, we see in catholics in america poll equally in favor of abortion as the rest of the population. which is to say most catholics in america are ignoring the catholic teachings on abortion and still consider themselves catholics. is that is the the gray zone of religion you're talking about? >> they're not necessarily for erg they stand for. the goal is to kind of make them get off the fence and fall on the side of the jihadist.
>> let's listen to to ted cruz has to say about isis. is. >> we will carpet bomb them into oblivion. >> now i don't think cruz knows that carpet bombing is a war crime, but if he did, he would still say it. he wants to tell audiences we can just carpet bomb this whole problem away. there's no real infrastructure. who are you going to bomb?
the people who would like to get away from isis and now must seek their protection. or bomb the people who could possibly help us in these urban areas to fight isis. basically you'll send a missile up a cam it's ass and get nowhere except to increase support for the islamic state. >> i want to read something you wrote in your piece. you said they base their ideology on fro at the timic tests that islamic will be victorious after an apocalyptic battle to be set off once armies come to the region. should that invasion happen, the islamic state would not only be able to declare its prophesy fulfilled but could also turn as a part of a new recruiting drive. i'm sorry, this is from "the new york times."
it's not from your piece. but you've been saying exactly this kind of thing about the prophetic text. scott, what about if the ground troops go in there to wuk seed, wouldn't that prove the prophetic texts wrong. we got rid of 70 to 780%. they moved into syria. they took over the rebellion there. they came back with a vengeance. even if we get rid of them in iraq and syria, they they're now in the sahara. they're running around trying to organize with quite a bit of success. >> so what is the smart war on isis? >> first of all, the existence of the caliphate does give them an incredible degree of traction to people who want to join them.
the idea of moving that land the ability to control that area is removing one of their basis, it will go a long way. but it cannot be western soldiers on the ground. that could be playing into isis' hands. that's the west versus islam and so far they have not been as successful at that as bringing western troops to the ground. and so militias, syrian rebel forces if they can get sunni muslims to go into that territory, that would help as
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his day of coaching begins with knee pain, when... this is brad. hey brad, wanna trade the all day relief of two aleve for six tylenol? what's the catch? there's no catch. you want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol? no. for my knee pain, nothing beats my aleve. we all know that isis reliesen on social media to spread its message and recruit people, but we did fot know until now that isis has a phone app. joining us now is the senior editor for digital and video content. cal, tell us about this app? >> well, lawrence, it's really all the trappings of a state without being a state.
so it's not the most interactive app anticipate you have to already be on an incrypted communication server that's run out of russia to even get an invitation to get on it. it's really just a better delivery system, a quicker intelligence. sometimes it's better that these things are out there, believe it or not. this is something anonymous is
interested in knocking off the air. pictures of isis fighters and their faces have been i replaced with cartoon ducks. there you have it. it should be an entertaining day. law yens, it's more of this isis trying to be a state, presenting itself to the world and certainly its followers and something legitimate, and this is becoming quickly a tech war. >> what would be isis' reaction to that hacking and, you know, turning their warriors into ducks? >> they're still very active on twitter, but they're much less responsive. they had 50,000 twitter handlers. i was communicating with them over twitter for a while. then they switched to telegram which san app they've been using for a while now. which is almost impossible to -- even telegram itself cannot unencrypt its own messages. this is what a lot of the paris attackers were using to communicate.
but the important thing to understand about the role of the internet and radicalization in general is the canadian department of public health just last month finished a year-long study on how the internet works in radicalization. and they found two main things .. one is that it's not just the messages alone, the video, the magazines, the radicalized people, it's the back and forth social interaction. so the internet and messaging app just provides a way to expand people's social networks and you can not understand the role of the internet on radicalization without taking into account their offline social networks. as members of researchers, artists have found three out of four people are radicalized by a friend, one out of five by a family member, very few by strangers. you have to look at the offline social network really get insight into who's radicalizing and how they're radicalized. >> let's listen to what hillary clinton has to say about this.
>> the threat of the jihadist has become metastasized and more complex and challenging. we're seeing the results of radicalization not just in far-off lands but right here at home, fuelled by the internet. it's the nexus of terrorism and technology. and we have a lot of work to do to end it. it's time for an urgent dialogue between the government and not just our government, government and the high-tech community to confront this problem together. >> scott, that sounds like a real departure from the edward snowden view of the world. this is a very post snowden comment to say government and the high-tech community should get together and work on this. >> i think they should, but i don't think that's going to be the main way we get to isis. it's a very intimate, personalized social communication where a young woman from syria will text another young woman from chicago and seattle and say look, i know how hard it is to leave your
mother and brother and sister, and let me try to help you explain why there's something more important in life so you can explain it to them. it's that intimate personal contact. and that's where we have to target. right now, we're trying to hit the technology and we're doing mass repetitive negative messaging with almost no effect whatsoever. i think if we're going to do something, it's got to be at that personal and intimate level, and it's got to be a message that appears to the glory, the joy of isis. people don't realize it, it is a joyful movement. our propaganda, it's vicious, it's brutal, it's cruel. yes, all of that is right. but for the people who join it, it's a glorious adventure, it's joyful and bonded in blood. >> all right, we're going to have to leave it there for tonight. cal perry, scott, nashfeed, thank you very much. up next, michelle obama raps with a pal about -- well, you'll find out what it's about.
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>> ali van zee tweeted this year i was able to get ten kids off the floor instead of the whole class. i'm grateful to you for the k.i.n.d. fund. the very first classroom we did was paid for with cash out of my pocket. since then, you have been incredibly generous. you can contribute anything, anything and that will help us get a december income a classroom. $5, $10, it all adds up. i'm going to continue reading your tweets about the k.i.n.d. fund and featuring them on the show.
i wish i could reply to every one of you directly who has contributed. i wish you could come to malawi to see their kindness in action. it's always the same thing, these kids who have never seen a school desk before, never expected to see one, when that desk arrives, it is always like christmas morning. and in this season of give, i thank every one of you once again for going to last word desks.msnbc.com and helping to improve the classroom experience for these students. finishing high school in malawi is more difficult and rare than finishing college in the united states. but your help has made it just a little bit easier for thousands and thousands of students. when i was there last month, they all wanted to say thank you. before those little pieces would get in between my dentures
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>> if you think this is the wildest presidential election campaign that we've ever seen, then you weren't watching in 1968, the presumptive nominee for the democrats, the certain nominee was incumbent president lyndon johnson who was actually then knocked out of the race by a bernie sanders like insurgency led by eugene mccarthy. that was alone was bigger and more important than anything that's happened in this campaign. robert kennedy, the brother our recently assassinated president joined the democratic side late and was knocked out early in the worst possible way, with an
assassin's bullet. that alone was a bigger historical event and more important event than anything that's happened in this campaign. george wallace, a southern democrat bolted the party and ran as an independent on a segregationist platform. and in april of the election year in the thick of the campaign, martin luther king jr. was assassinated. that alone was a bigger and more important historical event than anything that has happened in this campaign. the day after martin luther king was assassinated on edge, what bobby kennedy said that day to a country still reeling from the assassination of his brother, and now again from the assassination of a moral leader, the likes of which this country had never seen before, what he said that day is tonight's "last word." >> when you teach a man to hate and to fear his brother, when
you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his believes or the policies that he pursue, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your home or your family, then owe also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies, we must admit the vanity of our false distinctions, false distinctions among men and learn to find our own advancement in search for the advancement of all. we must admit to ourselves that our children's future cannot be built on the misfortune of another's. we must recognize that this
short life can neither be ennobled or enriched by hatred or revenge. a bump for trump. a shock for the gop. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. far from hurting him, donald trump's call for a ban of those of islamic faith entering this country has fueled him. he's got a marginal edge among the party base on turning away muslims as a policy. this has put a scare into the republican establishment who now fear trump may have enough gas politically to get to the convention next summer. keeping any other candidate from coming to cleveland with a majority. that's second only to their worst case scenari