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tv   MSNBC Live  MSNBC  January 5, 2016 3:00pm-4:01pm PST

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yes, they may get that, but they may possibly gain house and senate seats. >> we'll let you think about that over the break. reid, eliana, daniella, good to see you. sorry about your cavs last night. >> too soon. we'll be back tomorrow with "mtp daily." "with all due respect" starts right now. >> coming this election season, the final film in the wall street trilogy. >> the democratic presidential candidate says those banks have too much economic and political power over the nation. >> trading years in the senate. >> wall street is going to like me even less that. >> for the white house. >> the bankers are too big to chill. >> trading capitalism -- >> there is a war going on. >> for socialism. >> greed is not good. >> bernie sanders, jeff weaver, jane sanders and tad devine take on wall street. feel the burn.
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>> that film is coming soon to a theater near you. and we'll have a more extended preview right here on this show when we talk with bernie sanders and his supporters in just a few minutes. but first, president obama spoke in the east room of the white house today and announced executive actions that among other things will expand background checks to cover more firearm purchases at gun shows and online. obama denounced critics who characterize his move as a plot to keep guns from law-abiding citizens. and as he talked about the mass shootings that have riddled his presidency, including the one at sandy hook elementary school in 2012, the president shed a few tears. >> first graders. and from every family who never imagined that their loved one would be taken from our lives by a bullet from a gun -- every
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time i think about those kids, it gets me mad. and by the way, it happens on the streets of chicago every day. >> mark, president obama exhibiting great emotion and determination there. if that determination is matched by action, by effort, what do you think he actually could get done in his last year in office on this issue? >> i'm touched by his emotion on this and proud of his ability to show it, regardless of what you think about the second amendment, about his proposals, there's no doubt this is a national crisis that needs to be addressed. and his emotion is backed by determination. but there's nothing that's going to be able to be done on this. republicans and congress just don't agree with him about how to deal with these issues. i do think that we are going to have a more robust general
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election debate between whoever the nominees are, about the issue of how to deal with gun violence in america than we've ever had. and i think the president's going to tee that up through his efforts over the next year, even though they won't do much to change the nature of the current laws in the country. >> you know, i think there's a -- i agree with everything you just said. we talked yesterday on the show, a little bit about the way in which this debate will be highlighted, especially if we continue at the current rate of mass shootings that we've seen in the last year. i think that is a huge deal, though. i mean, if there is a way in which you can start -- once you've ruled out the notion that you can actually pass laws on something, which i think i agree with you, will not happen, moving the framework of the debate over, you know, for a long time, whether it's been opponents of abortion or advocates of gay marriage, changing hearts and minds is the predicate for changing laws. and that's the only way this is going to happen, given the strength of the gun lobby. >> and i'll say again, it has nothing to do with what your views are of the second amendment or these proposals. there has to be policies in this country. even if they're not governmental policies, there have been
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policies that address gun violence in america. because the emotion the president shows there is based in part, in fact, he's come in contact with these families. he's looked at them and talked to them and held them. any america who's done that will have a different view about the urgency of this -- i'll say again, regardless of what policies you want to pursue. >> all right. as we mentioned, democratic upstart/supernova bernie sanders is here in gotham city today. this afternoon he gave al big speech about wall street reform. senator sanders called for the reinstatement of glooass-steaga, and he contrasted himself quite directly with his democratic rival, hillary clinton. >> my opponent, secretary clinton says that glass-steagall would not have prevented the financial crisis, because shadow banks like aig and lehman brothers, not big commercial banks, were the real culprits. secretary clinton is wrong.
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secretary clinton says we just need to impose a few more fees and regulations on the financial industry. i disagree. >> we're going to talk a lot to senator sanders about his speech today, but today ask the question on days of big candidate policy speeches, is what he's proposing good policy, is it good politics? >> look, i think it is both. i think it is good policy in the sense that i think most people think that dodd/frank, for its strengths, is still too complicated and at the same time, not strong enough to prevent the kind of problems that we had with the financial crisis in 2008, 2009. it's better politics, because it's a place where there is a genuine contrast, and where hillary clinton is vulnerable with the democratic base. bernie sanders wants to cool -- make that contrast as clear as possible. he benefits from doing so. >> yeah, i think, look, this is an issue where the base of the
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party agrees with him more. where secretary clinton, to her political correct, has done a good job of fuzzing up the issue and proposing some things of her own, in some cases, more specific than we've seen from senator sanders, even after today. and his campaign knows they need a strong closing arguments. and that's what this was intended to be. on the politics, it was smart. on the policy, a lot of what he's saying, i think, does have appeal to people. i think he needs to make it clear to people -- >> what it actually means. >> how it would affect the real lives of real people. so i'm a little confused. i've listened to the speeches, i'm still confused about how some of it will work. on some of the policy, i give it more of an incomplete than a question of pass or fail. >> we'll have a chance to talk to senator sanders about these very issues and we will very soon. i do think that part of the thing that benefits sanders in this case is although secretary clinton has put forward some robust proposals, there is still, in the hearts of a lot of people, democrats, for sure, and i think across the country,
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people recognize her as being very close to wall street. no one quite believes her when she says she wants to crack down on wall street. and because that plays into that existing narrative about her of distrust, he's right to try to exploit it. i think he should try to exploit it more strongly than he is. >> the other thing we saw today, when he speaks about this stuff, he believes it and his supporters like it, a lot. >> with less than a month to go before the iowa caucuses, ted cruz and donald trump are still way out in front of the republican rivals. the rest of the field, the hawkeye state is in many ways becoming a race for the bronze medal. mark, at this moment, who would you say is best positioned to clinch that coveted third ticket out of iowa? >> just a pause before we get to third. it is pretty much conventional wisdom. and i think seemingly accurate in a year of unpredictable and people going up and down, that cruz and trump in some order. and i'm not sure that trump's not going to win, first and second, and maybe first and
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second by a lot. and i think while third could be important, it could be the big story is, cruz and trump may be both north of 25%, taking up a lot of the vote, and the rest of the vote divided. third may not matter a lot. i think bush, christie, carson, all could finish third. and rubio, obviously, also. and, so, i know it's a bit of a copout, but i think third may not matter. and i right now, i couldn't tell you which of those guys may finish third. i think carson could hold on to more of his vote than people expect. >> the data says certain things about this right now. one of them is that there's a clear top two, as you just said. and if you look at the graphs of the polling averages, and you can't put a lot of weight, but it means something if a lot of the polls show the same thing, trump and cruz, way out ahead. the clear number three right now with a decent amount of distance between him and anybody below him is marco rubio. he's going to come under a punishing amount of attacks. >> and has less of a turnout operation. >> i completely agree with that.
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although it's not clear that anybody else who's not in the top two has much of an operation to go up against him. but bush, interesting, you know, christie could get hot there. you know, bush, it seems, best positioned. but i've got to say, right now, i think that marco rubio at this moment is still, still best positioned to be number three. >> and if rubio finishes third there and finishes second in new hampshire, he is going to fulfill the strategy of saying, no first place in the first two states, but a good enough finish to go forward. i'll tell you, i've said it a hundred times, watch christie there, but also watch bush. if bush has a spark of life nationally in his organization, he may well do better there and well enough to go into new hampshire some momentum. >> the interesting thing about this is the trump phenomenon in iowa. you know, i would not be surprised if donald trump wins iowa. i would also not be surprised if donald trump comes in fourth in iowa. i know it like -- >> i would be surprised at this point. >> i think it could turn out to be totally -- i also think he
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could win it. >> trump as momentum, he has money, he's finishing strong there and he has the second best organization in the state. >> we will see about that. coming up, bernie sanders joins us right here in this very studio. we'll talk about his speech today and much, much, much much much more when we come back. ♪ ♪ why fit in when you were born to stand out. the 2016 nissan altima has arrived. ♪ bounty is two times more absorbent. more "sit" per roll. so one roll of bounty can last longer than those bargain brands. so you get more "life" per roll. bounty. the long-lasting quicker picker upper. iand quit a lot,t but ended up nowhere.
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joining us now is the junior senator from vermont, democratic presidential candidate, bernie sanders. before we get started, we want to show you and everyone else the new cover of "bloomberg businessweek." there it is, "bernie sanders doesn't want your vote," the vote of the readers of "businessweek," apparently. have you been on a lot of magazine covers? >> i look better on rolling stone. >> the cover of "rolling stone"? >> i would like their votes. >> of everybody? >> we don't expect to get all of
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them, but i would like them. >> the magazine will be on newsstands ton friday. senator, you can purchase that magazine for the reasonable price of $5.99 >> but you can get it for me free, right? >> we'll get you ten free copies for all your kids and grandkids. we want to talk about the stuff you proposed today, but we want to talk to you about the current environment on wall street. you've used some pretty sweeping rhetoric. i want you to give me some specific examples, some current examples, if you can. you've talked about wall street, the greed, recklessness and illegal behavior. tick off examples of each. what's an example of greed on wall street today? a specific thing you're referring to when you say that? >> when you have wall street whose greed and recklessness caused the worst economic downturn in the modern history of the united states with millions of people lost their jobs, their life savings, their homes, you know what, i've not heard an apology from these guys yet. >> i understand. i understand what we're talking about in terms of the crisis. you're saying it still exists, right? >> of course it still exists. >> so when you say there's greed, are you referring to a
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specific company? >> well, what i am referring to is the fact that these guys continue to receive huge compensation packages. you have blankfein from goldman sachs, i guess he's a billionaire now, making huge amounts of money, after destroying the economy. i think that that is -- it's not just him. >> but he's an example -- >> he's an example, yes. >> what's a current example of recklessness. >> recklessness is that we have not changed. wall street has not yet changed its business model, instead of investing and making affordable loans available to small and medium-sized businesses, they continue to come up with complicated financial instruments, which, i think, have the potential to do serious harm in the future. >> and again, a currently example of illegal behavior. >> well, if i knew it, i would tell the attorney general. but the point that i made is, and here is an important point. no one is going to argue, or maybe you want to argue with me,
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that we have a really tough regulatory system, looking out for wall street crimes. we don't. and yet, let me finish. and yet, since 2009, in a weak regulatory environment, these guys have had to pay over $200 billion in fines for illegal action or reaching settlements. that's rather extraordinary for a weak regulatory environment. god only knows what would happen if you had a strong regulatory environment. >> what's a law that's currently being violated and by whom? >> again, if i knew the answer to that, i would tell the attorney general. but i think it is pretty clear to me that in a weak environment, we have seen so many fines -- and i just read -- you heard me read them off for ten minutes about all the of the settlements that some of the major banks have been forced to reach. >> so there are six big financial institutions in this country. is there any distinction between them? are there some that are better, in your view, or worse? >> it's not a question of better
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or worse. there are two issues. number one, are we in danger once again of a too big to fail situation? where wall street crashes and the taxpayers have to bail them out. here's the irony. very few people know this. is that after we bailed out wall street because the banks were too big to fail, three out of the four larger are significantly bigger than they were when we bailed them out. you explain the sense of that to me. so the first danger is, will we go through this too big to fail situation again? but here's the second point. six largest financial institutions in this country have assets equivalent to about 60% of the gdp of america. that's about $10 trillion. they issue about two-thirds of the credit cards and about 35% of the mortgages. you know what i think? as i mentioned in my remarks, i think if teddy roosevelt were alive today, he would say, wow, that's just too much economic power. we need anti-trust legislation. we need to break them up.
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that's what i believe. >> who are the economic thinkers, current or past, who have influenced your views on these issues? >> well, i work and talk occasionally with bob reich, who is formerly the secretary of labor. elizabeth warren is a good friend of mine and elizabeth and i chat. >> are there classic economic writers who kind of inform your views of these issues? >> you know, i would say, i'm a keynesian in many respects. i believe at the end of the day, trickle-down economics, tax breaks for the rich and large corporations is a fraudulent theory. i don't think it's ever worked. it's a means by which the rich get richer. i believe much more in putting money by raising the minimum wage, by creating jobs, and putting the money into the hands of working people, not only by improving their lives, but with more disposable income, they'll go out, spend money, and create more jobs. >> we only have a couple of seconds left before we have to go to break.
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but your senate office put out a report, talking about 18 ceos -- >> about what? >> 18 ceos. 18 ceos, chief executive officers, who had significantly harmed the economy. they mentioned lloyd blankfein, jamie dimon, and you also mentioned how none of these high-level executives have gone to jail over what happened in 2008. are there specific ceos who you think should have been charged with crimes? >> well, i think when it is pretty clear to me that one of the reasons that -- and not just to me. i think to many people. but one of the reasons why we were driven into this horrendous economic downturn and why wall street crashed had a lot to do with illegal behavior. >> right. >> and i just read -- >> but here's the other thing about blankfein in particular, which really irks me, i must tell you. these guys, who are, in fact, billionaires -- billionaires. make huge sums of money, help destroy our economy. day come to congress. and you know what they say? they say, you got to cut social
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security and you've got to cut medicare, and you've got to cut medicaid. >> let me ask you whether there's anybody -- are there specific ceos who you think -- if you had been president in 2009, you would have said, that person should be charged with a crime? >> i'll tell you what we should have had. we should have had the kind of investigation that took place during the 30s, trying to understand the crash of the '30s promptly instead of when we did. so i can't answer that question right now. but there are people who can answer it and we need that information. >> we're supposed to go to break, but i want to say, you throw around this phrase, you know, illegality, crimes, but you can't -- you haven't named anyone who -- >> i just gave you, this afternoon, ten examples of banks like citigroup, jpmorgan chase, goldman sachs, who have paid fines -- >> but has anyone committed a criminal act that should go to prison? >> well, if people are found guilty of illegal acts, if they reach settlements with the
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government, what do you think? if you're found guilty, the point was, they are paid $200 billion in fines, for illegal activity. don't you find it a little bit strange, after paying $200 billion, not one major executive on wall street has gone to jail or been prosecuted? i find it a little bit strange. >> all right. we have to leave it there, but i hope to talk to you more about that. when we come back, we'll talk to senator sander s about some othr stuff in the news and about his campaign, right after this. [ sneezing ] the cold truth is, if a cold keeps you up at night... you can't work from home the next day. [ coughing ] that's why you need alka seltzer plus day night liquid gels. it's tough cold symptom fighters provide powerful relief. relief that helps you sleep at night and gets you back out there during the day. [ deep breath ] [ truck horn ] alka-seltzer plus day night liquid gels. also available, in stores alka-seltzer plus night time hot drink mix.
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we are back with senator bernie sanders. i want to go back to the previous talking about, we were talking about wall street reform. hillary clinton's campaign attacked your proposals before you even offered them today. she said your reforms are weaker than yours. i know you think hers are weaker than yours. tell me why you think her ideas are insufficient, and why they're insufficient. do you think she's just mistaken or she's a captive of wall street? >> i think that her proposals do not go far enough. i think when we have seen the track record of wall street in driving this country into a massive economic downturn. when you see the concentration of wealth and power on wall street, i think for two reasons, the need to prevent another bailout, and the need to bring more competition into the financial market place suggests what i think many people understand.
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these huge financial institutions have got to be broken up. that is not secretary clinton's position. she wants to do this, she wants to do that. that's fine. but at the end of the day, you have to bring back glass-steagall, you have to separate commercial banks from investment banks, and you have to break up the major financial institutions, for the good of our economy. >> so her husband was the one who abolished glass-steagall in the first place. >> so are she and her husband, either one or the other, is that because they have the wrong ideas or is it because they are pawns of wall street? >> i wouldn't put it that way, this is what we can say. we can say that hillary clinton has been a very significant recipient over the years of wall street money. we can say that her husband was very sympathetic to the idea of deregulating wall street. that, i guess, is their philosophy. that's what they believe. it doesn't make anybody an evil person. that's just their views. i disagree. i think to create the kind of vibrant economy that we need to kind of rebuild the disappearing middle class to deal with
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poverty, we need a financial system that is much more robust, that is not as concentrated as it is right now. we need banks to get back to boring business and that is to make affordable loans available to small and medium-sized businesses, so they can create jobs. >> will we see a single-payer health care plan from you before the iowa caucuses and if so, how will it be paid for? >> first of all, as i know you know, we spend far more per capita on health care than the people of any other nation. we spend close to three times what the british spend, who provide health care to all people. 50% more than the french, far more than the canadians. so, what we will do is come up with a proposal that does two things. number one, has the united states join the rest of the industrialized world, guaranteeing health care to all people. you may have seen in the paper recently, that there are so many people in this country, not only who have no health insurance, 29 million, but who are underinsured with these huge
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deductibles, that really keep them from going to the doctor. yet we play the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs and far more per capita than any other country. but we will have a proposal. >> before iowa? >> probably before. i won't swear to you on that one. >> i know you say there's money in the system, but will there be new revenues, taxes, fees of any sort? >> one of the things i want to deal, i've seen hillary clinton do this and i've seen some of the media do this. oh, you're going to raise taxes, but what are we forgetting in that discussion? we're doing away with all private health insurance premiums. so if you're paying $14,000 or $16,000 in private health insurance premiums, and if, and i don't know that i have to do it, i would raise your taxes and you would say, wow, i'm paying $8,000 less for health care, that's a good deal. >> so will any americans pay more for their health care under -- >> oh, no. >> no one? >> no. because we have now, by far, we are spending far more per capita on health care than do the people of any other country. we're going to significantly
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reduce health care costs in america. and lower prescription drugs, which is a huge problem in this country. >> let me try to get in one quick question on guns. today you praised president obama's executive actions and you said that would help end the scourge of gun violence in america. >> it would. >> is it enough? >> look. i think the president was right. i remember -- i know the president pretty well and i saw him after the shootings in oregon, and what he said, i think, was all that can be said -- >> all right, i'll have to cut you off, because we have to go to a hard break. senator sander, thank you so much. when we come back, we'll break down president obama's speech. you focus on making great burgers, or building the best houses in town. or becoming the next highly-unlikely dotcom superstar. and us, we'll be right there with you, helping with the questions you need answered to get your brand new business started. we're legalzoom and we've already partnered with over a million new business owners to do just that.
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earlier, we talked about president obama's very emotional remarks about gun control today at the white house. here's how he tried to counter the criticism that his recent executive actions are an affront
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to the second amendment. >> contrary to claims of some presidential candidates apparently before this meeting, this is not a plot to take away everybody's guns. you pass a background check, you purchase a firearm. i believe in the second amendment. it's there, written on the paper. it guarantees a right to bear arms. no matter how many times people try to twist my words around, i taught constitutional law, a little bit about this. i get it. but i also believe we can find ways to reduce gun violence consistent with the second amendment. >> joining us now to talk about
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what the president said, two of the pillars of our washington bureau, bill hunt and margaret tlap. margaret, you've watched the president a lot. is that kind of emotion for him in public rare or how rare is it and why do you think he showed it today? >> you know, mark, you don't see president obama tear up often, but when you do, it tends to have to do with issues around gun violence. and he and his team have said pretty consistently that the massacre at sandy hook was one of the worst if not the worst days of his presidency. you do see a lot of emotion there for him, but politically speaking, for real advocates of gun rights issues, president obama has -- will forever be dogged with his statement during the 2008 campaign that people were clinging to their guns and their religion. and he has just fought a fruitless battle to convince his
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critics otherwise. >> al, the president, obviously, exhibiting a lot of emotion, as mark and margaret were just talking about. do you think that there is any way, beyond what he has done today, that he can achieve anything substantial over the course of the next year, his last year in office? >> no, with i don't. and i think normally when a president or a political candidate cries, it's bad. that's not what people want to see. but when you're crying, when tears come to your eyes because of little children who have been killed, i think that's quite different. i think the politics, as we've seen time and time and time again, after they passed the brady bill in 1993, 19 democrats certifiably got defeated on that issue in the next election. there's still that fear. i don't know if he'll change the dialogue a bit over the next year and a half, but he won't get anything done. i don't understand why they keep say they're doing this, which
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they have executive authority. it's only really -- it's a political opposition. it's not a violation of the second amendment, why do they keep talking about bypassing congress. they're going to simply say, we have the executive authority, which i think they clearly do. >> al, how much do you think public opinion has shifted on this issue? >> i think it's shifted a little bit, but, you know, the sense among most people in politics is, it may be 75/25, but that 75, it's issue number 16 or 17 or 19, and for the 25, it's issue number one or two. and that contrast to the democrats that were defeated in the '90s on the brady bill, an assault weapons ban, look at all the republicans who resisted, after sandy hook, resisted, really mild, mild measures. joe manchin and pat toomey, not a single one were affected in the next election. >> so bernie sanders made a speech saying dodd/frank is a
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joke, and hillary clinton has said, we've got to go a lot further than dodd/frank. the building you cover in the white house, how do people there including the president of the united states feel about the fact that his two most likely democratic potential successors are trashing, effectively, one of the signature achievements of his first term. >> not what they want, as the president looks to build his legacy. but i think they're not terribly surprised. president obama having gone through this himself a couple of times knows that this is the time when you are running and you have to carve out your position. and i would note, like with some irony, that on the same day that this is happening, bernie sanders wants to not be talking about guns, because from a primary election perspective, his position on guns is not as good as hillary clinton's, and she's been hammering him on it. and he wants to make the conversation about wall street, and when he does, she wants to act like she's tough on wall street a little bit. you see a little bit of primary election give and take here. >> al, a presidential cycle of uncertainty that's been the case
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is still the case. and the sanders people would acknowledge this, he must do super well, in not win, at least get close to winning in iowa and new hampshire. as we head into the home stretch, how do you rate his chances in those two states? what are the variables? >> i think he's got at least a 50% chance to win one of them, conceivably two. he's probably running even in new hampshire and he's within striking distance in iowa. he's popular, but he has no organization out there. he's got 28 office, 101 paid staff out there. bernie sanders is not going to go away, mark, no matter how much the hillary people want to think he will. and i think he needs to win one of those first two to be more credible later. i don't think he's going to be the nominee, but the notion that after new hampshire, he's got nothing, is crazy. he's got massachusetts and colorado and minnesota and vermont. and he's got 2.5 million krirpt contributors. >> he's not going away. >> margaret, you covered the 2008 obama campaign and spent a lot of time in iowa.
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you know what momentum looks like, late momentum. when you look at this rain, hillary clinton and bernie sanders in iowa, do you see momentum in either case or on both cases? >> i do, but you don't see quite the same dynamic that you did with obama, where he was so invested in drawing out younger voters and first-time voters and there was that kind of spark and enthusiasm. you do see that with sanders' campaign, but you don't see the organization to quite at the same level to back up that play. and that was something that was really phenomenal about what barack obama was doing in 2008. >> al, just to clarify, you said sanders wouldn't go away even if he didn't win the first two. will he be enough of a threat and a force to her in some of those states that she won't be able to turn to focus on a general election? >> oh, i think so. i don't know how long it goes, mark, but look at the money. the money is extraordinary pip mean, he's almost matched her. and i think the passion is there. i don't think he's going to be the nominee. >> and you think those
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low-dollar donors keep giving, even if he doesn't do well in the first two state? >> they give a lot more if he wins. that's for sure. but i don't think they go away and i think caucus states and some other states like massachusetts, i think he can do quite well and i think he's going to give her heartburn for at least a couple of months after those early primaries. >> al hunt and margaret toud, thanks to you both. up next, msnbc's chris matthews joins us fresh off his interview with hillary clinton in iowa today, when we come back. you both have a perfect driving record.
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. checking in now on trump versus clinton, a day after bill clinton declined to comment on trump's recent attacks, the republican front-runner sat down with our friends at "morning joe," joe scarborough and mika brzezinski, the donald doubled down. >> he lost his law license. he wasn't allowed -- he was impeached. he wasn't allowed to practice law. he settled for a tremendous amount of money. i mean, you know there's a lot of things going on there and she calls me sexist. >> but haven't they backed down? hillary -- >> i don't call it -- >> hillary won't even respond. >> i don't call it that. because tomorrow they can start it up. i'm just saying this, it's fair game when they attack me, i'm going to attack them. if they don't, i would leave that off the table. >> you're saying today, you're
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only going to bring up bill clinton's past history as a possible sexual harasser if she accuses you of being sexist? >> true, that's what it's all about. that was what it was. it had nothing to do with s.i.d.isis. with isis, she lied. >> meanwhile, another big interview in iowa, hillary clinton said this to msnbc's chris matthews in interview that airs tonight at 7:00 eastern on "hardball". >> isn't this a republican party problem, that started with trump's first arrival on the world stage as some sort of politician, that it's ethnic with them. the president of the united states is one of the bad guys, one of the -- if not the terrorists, one of the sneaker-iners. he snuck into the country and assumed an identity. it's pretty sick. >> well, it's very divisive, and i think, counterproductive. it undermines our values, who we are as a people. we are a nation of immigrants, which you know so well. and when i hear what's coming from the other side, and it's not just one person, there's an echo chamber there, and it's
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very troubling to me to try to divide and conquer, divide and conquer, and, you know, a house divided against itself cannot stand. we need to be united. and we should not reward people who use inflammatory rhetoric, who use the kind of derogatory comments, whether it's about muslims or mexicans or women or about people with disability. it's whoever it might be. that is not a sign of leadership. that's a sign of, you know, showmanship, of desperation, that should be rejected roundly by the american people. >> joining us now from des moines, chris matthews to talk about his interview with hillary clinton. chris, do you think hillary clinton is comfortable with where she and her husband sit now, facing off against donald trump? >> well, you know, i think she's very comfortable in saying that he's a divider, and i thought we made that pretty clear, that it didn't start with this latest ban on muslims coming into the country. it started with him saying the presence of muslims, the president is some sort of
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identity thief. he isn't even who he says he is. wasn't born in this country, wasn't worn in honolulu. isn't, in fact, the person who uses the name barack obama. from you listen to trump on obama, when he started this very early, years ago, that obama is some sort of a guy who nobody knew in school, didn't really exist, sort of a manchurian candidate from the mideast, from africa, or somewhere. so this whole ethnic charge against muslims and against people of that part of the world is clearly not new. and the republican party has not ever sanctioned donald trump for it. that's what i was getting into. she's very comfortable with that. that defense. >> chris, let me ask you a different twist on that same question, which is, do you think that the fight with donald trump is what the clintons want or do you think they feel as though it's in their best interests to avoid that fight as long as possible? >> well, i think trump is very good at getting down in the mud. you know the old expression, don't get into a peeing match with a skunk.
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and i think it applies. trump will say anything about a person personally. he even accused hillary of being an enabler. and i don't think anybody thought that she was in shock when this monica thing came about. you just looked at her face in the clip, you could see, she couldn't believe it happened. and the idea that somehow she enabled that whole thing and she had something to do with impeachment is fairly outrageous and trump says that. does anybody believe it? the people who hate hillary will believe anything about her. i did think it was great, in part of the interview that i think is new, is very new, when she talks about how, starting in 1998, after that embarrassment, that very difficult period for her after monica, she talked about how she built her own political career. and the incidents that led to that. and how she decided that she could -- that she had to be her own self as a candidate, and not just a supportive spouse. and how that sort of generated -- that hillary clinton as a political figure, went up to new york, went campaigning for chuck schumer and other democrats and found herself welcomed up there as a
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democratic candidate for senator herself, and then becoming a candidate herself, taking the risk and certainly her critics would have loved her losing up there, if she had lost to rudy giuliani, who looked to be her opponent at the time. and out of that campaign her political career, which has led now to the chance to be president of the united states. she talks, i think, very earnestly about the steps that led to that. and how she sort of bloomed and res to the occasion after that very embarrassing period. that's new tonight. >> at 7:00 on "hardball." you've been around her for a long time. what's your sense of what's on your mind? is she worried about losing iowa, thinking about sanders, thinking about who she's going to put in her candidate? what's on her mind now? >> as you watch, if you're fortunate enough to spend any kind of relaxing time with hillary clinton at all, you know there's a different personality there. a much more easygoing person there. and i think you see that in the debate, in the discussion tonight. she comes off as very much like she does when she's casual with people. so, she didn't seem to be
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worried in any kind of, you know, sweating kind of situation. i think she knows, i mean, i brought it up, it looks like you're one of the two or three people that will probably be the next president, the field has narrowed dramatically. and i think she's comfortable in that space. >> chris, do you think -- looking -- if you think back to 2008, you were a very close observer of that election. you're now a very close observer of this one. how has she changed as a candidate between that election and this one in those eight years? for better or worse as a campaigner? >> well, you know it's been mixed over the years. it isn't two steps forward, it's two steps, one backwards, sometimes. and you know, if you watched her development, as we all do politicians, in the first debate this year, she was excellent. very well prepared. bob barnette, whatever those guys -- i think those are the guys who did it, did a great job. she was totally prepared and confident. when you're very well briefed,
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you're very confident and likable. she performed incredibly well in those 11 hours before the trey gowdy committee in the house, on benghazi. really well to the point i think she exhausted the people watching her and trying to catch her. i think the second debate, not so well. the third debate, well. i think it's a question of doing her homework and being more confident and therefore more likable. i think those steps are true in politics, do your homework, be more confident and you'll become more likable. i would put her in the final category right now as how she behaves in tonight's interview. very likable and comfortable and confident. >> chris, thanks for taking time. remember, you can see chris's full interview with former secretary of state hillary clinton tonight on "hardball," msnbc at 7:00 eastern time. chris, thanks so much. we look forward to watching it. and when we come back, feel the burn along with us from some brrn bernie sanders supporters here in new york city today right a thf. $9.99 after rewards for this case of paper! office depot officemax. gear up for great.
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today mark and i saw a show in midtown manhattan. not "hamilton" not "star wars," a much more interesting show. bernie sanders at the town hall theater. we showed up a little early, before his big wall street speech to get a sense of how his supporters are feeling about his chances of becoming the next president of the united states.
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well, let me begin by thanking all of you for being here this afternoon and thank my twin senator, senator james sanders. >> once my name was sanders, i had very little choice here. but on a serious side, i look for -- actually, cousin. i -- uncle sam, we call him for short. actually, i looked at somebody who'd been a fighter. i need somebody who doesn't flip-flop. >> so you just endorsed bernie sanders, first elected in the state to do that. why'd you do that? >> because we're trying to look toward the future, not the past. and bernie sanders represents some of the ideas and policies that make a difference for the future that will benefit, especially working families, low-income families. >> you say you're more bullish on his chances now than you were
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a couple of months ago or weeks ago? >> yes. >> tell me why? >> the debates have shown that he knows what he's doing and he's just getting more coverage, just around the board. >> everybody i know is leaning to him or voting for him. >> he's got nowhere to go but up. >> why do you feel that way? >> the more people learn about him, the more people like him. >> his chances are, he's going to kick ass and he's going to win. that's why we're here. we're not taking no for an answer. >> there are people making shirts like this, people making buttons. >> do you think the debates have helped him? >> yeah, i definitely think the debates have helped him, but more so than the debates, i think social media is really bernie's strong point. >> i think it's important that bernie says the things he does say and bring topics to light, and that's why i like him. not necessarily that he's going to win, just that he's bringing topics -- >> how do you like his chances to beat hillary clinton? >> to beat hillary? if he wins iowa and new hampshire, i think that he'll
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get the momentum, and i think he can beat her if he does that. if he doesn't win iowa, it's slim, at best. >> you still consider her a formidable obstacle? >> i think that bernie sanders will win. that's the bottom line. >> clinton is -- she has a lot of history. she's established in the field of politics and, but i think people are starting to question her more, and her chances against trump versus sanders' chances against trump are not that great. so i think we have to closely evaluate the situation more before we say anything. >> i don't think she is a formidable candidate. i think that she's just a house candidate. >> so he's going to win? >> well, you know, the house is really powerful. you know what i mean? >> don't bet against the house? >> right. >> of course hillary is formidable. of course she's formidable. if bernie were not in the race, we would consider hillary.
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however, we do have bernie. >> bernie is bey. >> all right, so, bernie sanders fans, still as devoted to him as ever. quite savvy, and definitely feeling a sense of momentum, like that little lull in the fall has turned and he's back on the upswing. >> also realistic, though. they recognize hillary clinton brings a lot of strength, but i'm impressed with their idealism. comparable to trump supporters. they're really idealistic about their support for their candidate. >> and they think the media has stacked the deck against their guy. >> we will be right back with a little more after this. ♪ (cell phone rings) where are you? well the squirrels are back in the attic. mom? your dad won't call an exterminator... can i call you back, mom? he says it's personal this time...
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and if you're watching us in washington, d.c., you can listen to us on bloomberg 99.1 fm. until tomorrow, for mark and me, sayonara. president and commander in chief. and i feel ready to fulfill both role. >> that was hillary clinton in our big interview tonight. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in des moines, iowa. a few hours ago, hillary clinton gave me her first interview in the year 2016. you'll notice the colorful backdrop of the osage firehouse. thank you, madame secretary. this is a big interview for us. 22 years we've been doing this and this is one of our big ones. i want to ask you about 12

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