tv MSNBC Live With Kate Snow MSNBC January 6, 2016 12:00pm-2:01pm PST
you stay young forever. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. ♪ you make me feel so young... it's what you do. ♪ you make me feel ♪ so spring has sprung. hi, everyone i'm kate snow. we begin today breaking news out of one of the most dangerous and isolated people in the world. north korea declared overnight it detonated its first hydrogen bomb and if true poses a challenge to the u.s. and world powers. a hydrogen bomb used nuclear fusion making it hundreds of times more powerful. in an announcement. north korea called it a complete success and officials in the u.s. and south korea quickly cast some doubt on north korea's claim that it was indeed a hydrogen bomb instead of an atomic weapon. here's white house press
secretary josh earnest just this afternoon. >> the initial analysis that's been conducted of the events that were reported overnight is not consistent with north korean claims of a successful hydrogen bomb test. there's nothing that's occurred in the last 24 hours to cause the united states government to change our assessment of north korea's technical and military capabilities. >> we have the team covering this from all over angles. let's start with nbc news chief global news correspondent bill neely in london. what do we know at this hour if it was a hydrogen bomb? >> reporter: you heard josh earnest there, the u.s. determining north korea carried out as he put it some kind of nuclear test but skeptical that it was a hydrogen bomb and that skepticism is widespread. so, too, the criticism of beijing, moscow and the u.n. where the security council met
behind closed doors. u.s. ambassador samantha powers saying the u.n. should impose new sanctions against north korea. the only problem, kate, as she knows is that three security council resolutions and a battery of sanctions have done nothing to deter north korea. and from the u.s. state department, this barbed comment of north korea's leader, this isn't a leader they say who is willing to spend his resources on the things that matter to his people. there's no question that the test and announcement of pyongyang was a surprise to most. north koreans say it was a small or miniaturized hydrogen bomb and u.s. officials say the intensity of the blast way below the level expected from a hydrogen bomb and it's weeks before we know but a significant number of analysts are saying this was possibly calling a boosted fission weapon between
atomic and hydrogen bomb because an h-bomb is a huge step up for north korea and a big, new challenge for the international community and that claim from north korea being treated with some skepticism. kate? >> bill, it is so difficult to get information out of north korea as you know. remind us what you saw there. >> reporter: well, the pictures that you see of the announcement and the crowds in the street lining up and cheering when that announcement is shown on large screens tells you quite a lot about a state in which people are drilled, in which they really don't have the ability to think of anything else other than what the regime tells them. but make no mistake. those people, that man is cheering because he's proud. they're proud of what their nation which was reduced to -- that city pyongyang reduced to
rubble in the korean war and what thaif achieved and proud about every step on a program that began 25 years ago with a fairly crude plutonium experiment. and now they think that they're at the same table as the u.s. and china and russian nuclear powers and want the respect of the world. what north korea ironically wants more than anything else is america's respect but in this instance america will not give north korea any place at any nuclear negotiating table. what it wants is for talks to begin with the denuclearization of the korean peninsula as the agreed goal. north korea said it won't do that, won't give up a nuclear program of which it's very proud. kate? >> bill neely for us in london, thank you. let's turn to pentagon correspondent jim miklaszewski. jim, i can imagine when the news
came out last night u.s. time the pentagon doesn't take any of this lightly. >> reporter: well, that's true. and in fact, and it didn't come out of the pentagon but came out of the state department. a brief time ago when the secretary of state public affairs secretary john kirby indicated that the u.s. had intelligence in advance of this. now, the north koreans have been signaling that they were about to detonate a hydrogen bomb in a test blast of some kind so that put the entire intel and in some cases the u.s. military on edge on alertment it's not clear exactly what assets the u.s. military would have had at its disposal. normally an rc-135 airplane to collect air samples shortly after the test in that region. we know that air samples can be tested by u.s. personnel on the roof of the embassy in seoul,
south korea. so, the way people are reacting here at the pentagon, they seem very confident that this was not, they aren't saying it specifically, but they appear confident that this was not a hydrogen bomb in part because we're told that this registered 5.1 on the riktster scale which was about exactly the same registration on the richter scale of three previous tests which were believed to be relatively small atomic bombs being tested by the north korea. whether these air samples were collected, we have yet to be told that. >> jim miklaszewski at the pentagon for us, thank you. north korea's claims presents another national security challenge for president obama. unlike iran and recently agreed to limit the nuclear capability, north korea held three purported nuclear tests since president obama took office and unresponsive to international
attempts to curb the ambitions. i want to bring in dr. john park at the harvard kennedy school. nice to see you. thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >> i mentioned those -- if last night's was another, it's four now that they have tested in recent months. i want to put up a map, those are the nuclear tests we have had since 2006. and you see the different magnitudes there and everyone's referring to. help us understand, dr. park, what this one means and how it might have differed from the others or do you see it as the same kind of test? >> the claim is that it is a different test. the north koreans proclaim they have conducted a thermonuclear test. basically the hydrogen bomb. to make the distinction, the three previous were plutonium based atomic bombs. with this device, you are looking at a two state. fission reaction of plutonium and then basically boosting into
the hydrogen aspect which would produce the fusion reaction and then 1,000 more powerful than the previous bomb version and we have to keep the eye of very focused on the north that north korea appears to be making a net positive forward movement in perfecting the idea of a miniaturized nuclear warhead significant because a nuclear warhead that's miniaturized with a high explosive yield leads to a viable nuclear weapon. >> are you saying that the size of the explosion doesn't matter as much as the delivery mechanism? >> it is serious, the size of the explosion and what is being claimed here. but if we look at what is accomplished essentially is the fourth version of a previous type of test. the technical experts trying to piece together with certainty if there was a hydrogen bomb test and if it were the fission type,
it is a notion of making a progress towards one of the parallel paths. someone miniaturizing the warhead and then a delivering system. >> in terms of diplomacdiplomac president obama refused to negotiate with nuclear korea. has that strategy backfired to your mind? >> well, one thing we have to look at very closely, the internal dynamics and enormously challen challenging scenario and it's a black box. kim jong-un is a new leader still and still consolidating and what is happening domest domestically leads to question marks and how efforts influence the internal process. but when it comes to the overall policy and north korea, there's a very specific focus on sanctions and as we'll see there's going to be renewed
discussion of tougher sanctions and a thing coming out is a puzzle of increasing sanctions led to increasing nuclear progress. >> back in october, i had the chance to speak with a north korean young woman who defected from that cown. she wrote a book and said she would be executed if she ever went back. i want to play this and ask you about it. >> i didn't know the word for freedom. >> literally the word you didn't know. >> i didn't know, yeah. i'm sure there is in the dictionary but nobody talks about freedom except defending our enemies and kill american bastards. >> tell me about that. you say that even in school in elementary school they talk about americans. >> so i think the math problem was like this. there are four american bastards and you kill two of them. how many american bastards left to kill? and i say, two american bastards. >> that's what they would say in class? >> yes. because for us, american bastards is one word.
it's a -- you are not allowed to say americans. it is too nice. >> it's such a secretive place. it is such an isolated place. that story really compelling and i just wonder how then does the rest of the world deal with kim jong-un and the regime there. >> it is a very difficult situation. that is an understatement. with this ongoing nuclear progress situation among the 99% of north korea very dire, this is a big problem. but one thing when it comes to the nuclear threat to the security and the environment, certainly there's been a tremendous amount of focus on sanctions but the key here is china and there will be a lot of attention on china. not so much in terms of encouraging china to apply sanctions. that's very difficult for internal reasons in china but the fact this china and north korea trade so heavily with each other, might be an opportunity to use the trading levers to exert pressure. there's a constant fear and
concern in pyongyang too much fear leads to the collapse of north korea but this is new elements to watch closely. >> thank you. >> my pleasure. the news out of north korea obviously reverberating on the campaign trail here in the u.s. with republicans blaming the test on president obama's failed foreign policy. joining me now msnbc political correspondent steve kornacki. steve, predictable i guess the republicans go after obama on this. >> yeah. i mean, in a way it certainly is. whenever there's an incident in foreign policy, troubling like this, you look for the republican candidates for president to be finding a way to attach it to the administration. also, maybe trying to find a way to attach it to hillary clinton. that's mostly seeing from the candidates. we can give you a little bit of a taste of it. ted cruz linked it to the iran 'nique clure deal and criticized and other republicans intensified so intensely.
oh. we don't have that. i'm sorry. marco rubio also this is another one i think we have for you, though. marco rubio was addressing this and he found a way, more broadly to link this to the clintons and bill clinton and president at another moment of trouble between, in relations of united states and north korea. can we play that? >> we now have the news this morning that this lunatic in north korea has potentially tested a hydrogen bomb which is twice as powerful as a regular nuke -- two-step weapon. very powerful. that's not confirmed. but here's what's confirmed. he is a lunatic. and he's dangerous. and this administration has done nothing about it. and bill clinton wanted to give speeches in north korea a few years ago, by the way. >> interestingly, though, listening to the last guest talking about the relationship between china and north korea, the potential use of trade as a lever to get china to act against north korea, donald trump actually was making that
point today saying that we should make trade very difficult for china. of course, china, a frequent punching bag for donald trump. also, i can point out hillary clinton released a statement today on this. she said that we should be increasing sanctions, increasing pressure on north korea. she said that north korea is attempting to blackmail the world and we should have no part of that and increasing sanctions. >> steve, thanks so much. >> sure. coming up, a lot more presidential politics. donald trump dominating the headlines on a day where he doesn't even have a single campaign event. equals great rates. it's a fact. kind of like reunions equal blatant lying. the company is actually doing really well on, on social media. oh that's interesting. i - i started social media. oh! it was my...baby. i have a massive heart attack oright in my driveway.d the doctor put me on a bayer aspirin regimen.
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clintons and question ted cruz's canadian birth. marco rubio scoring a key endorsement in congress even as much of the talk focuses on his fashionable new boots. we'll get to that. chris christie's momentum in new hampshire turning into cash and announcing a series of new hires in early states and ted cruz, his new immigration ad asks voters to imagine the uproar if lawyers, bankers and journalists were crossing the rio grand. hillary clinton hitting the trail in nevada as bernie sanders accuses her of lacking the courage to stand up to wall street. joining me now to start it all off, nbc's katy tur covering the trump campaign. beth fooey here in new york with me. katy, trump gave an interview to "the hill" on capitol hill and said i'll close the deal and win the nomination and pointing to states like new york and pennsylvania an saying he's got those wrapped. >> reporter: yeah. he says he has crossover appeal
and nobody else does and winning states that other republicans can't and when you're talking to insiders in the gop, they seem to agree with him. think seem to think he has the ability to woo independents and soft democrats over to the republican party. ones that other republicans would not be able to get over and not so worried if he wins the nomination and he would be a good candidate against hillary clinton because he would be able to take some of those votes away from her and bring them over to the republican camp. so when he does say that, he has backing and could potentially be true. i have spoken to at will of people across this country, people who say they're democrats, people who said they're independents. that they haven't voted in years. but they do say they like donald trump and why do they like donald trump? we say it over and over again and say they like that he is telling it like it is and trust him in a way they don't trust other politicians. >> i have to ask you about the donald trump comments on ted
cruz and i hate to have to ask you about this and it's come up again today. donald trump questioning whether ted cruz can be president given he was born in canada. what's the latest? >> reporter: that's what he does. he throws a bomb into the water and watches it explode and everybody -- the news reverberates for days. he is not campaigning as you said today. he is nowhere. only doing interviews and making the headlines. basically what he is saying because he was asked by reporters is that there is a lot of people out there questioning ted cruz's birth and whether or not he's eligible to run for president or to be president. and he's not saying that he is questioning it. he's saying that everybody else is and there's concern out there. and that way he's able to say that i'm not attacking first but referring to what other people are saying because, you know, we keep saying over and over again he only attacks if somebody attacks him first. there's been a detente between him and ted cruz and certainly
things are more testy between the two 0 of them closer to iowa. seeing ted cruz overtake him in lot of polls out there, it has to be worrying for him because he has said repeatedly he wants to win iowa, plans to win iowa. the campaign says they have all of the groundwork out there, the volunteers. they plan to win iowa. but at the same time, we are hearing donald trump at rallies lay the groundwork for potentially losing iowa saying that it's not that big of a deal coming in second by just a couple points so he is laying the groundwork for potential loss and supporters still stay with him and momentum there in new hampshire and still doing very well in all of the polls. >> yeah. he actually in "the hill" acknowledged iowa is important and said it's important and it could matter. katy tur -- >> reporter: it is important but same time most -- recent history, the nominee has not won
iowa so it's important to donald trump's mind. is it important for the race? not necessarily. >> thanks so much up from the trail in burlington, vermont, where trump is headed next. not the conventional choice of state. thank you so much. let's bring in beth fooey with me. a couple of things. i can play the sound of donald trump talking about this issue of whether cruz being born in canada matters to being eligible for being president of the united states. let's play the donald trump sound first if we have that. >> well, i'm not going anywhere. i was just asked an innocent question yesterday by "the washington post" and i hope this doesn't take play. i mean, frankly, i don't want to see it happen. i want to beat him on his own merit. the democrats, bringing a lawsuit on it, you have to get it solved. i would like to see ted do something and go if a preemptive fashion into court to get an order because i would not like
to see that happen. i like him a lot. i think he likes me a lot. he's nice to me. i'm nice to him. >> here's ted cruz responding. >> look. as a legal matter, the question is quite straightforward and settled law the child of a u.s. citizen born abroad is a natural born citizen. people will continue to make political noise about it but as a legal matter it's quite straightforward. >> straightforward? done? settled? >> no. he only wishes. look. it's true that in 2008 john mccain was the republican nominee for president and he was born out of the country. he was in the panama canal zone and born in an american military base. his father was in the navy. >> american soil basically. >> basically. nobody was going to make a big deal about that and john mccain was a war hero himself. you know? suffered terribly in vietnam. it's not straightforward at all in the constitution and nor is it in legal jurisprudence at all. many, many constitutional law
experts say that cruz is probably fine. his mother is an american citizen and gave birth to him in canada, he is eligible to be president and as trump said if a democrat or anyone everyone else wants to bring a suit, we don't know what might happen. >> not to get technical but i read it comes down to natural born citizen. right? >> nobody really knows what the framers meant by that. maybe we'll find out if cruz is the nominee. >> talk about rubio and christie. chris christie seeing more mojo it feels like this week and rubio going after the pac that likes rubio going after him with ads and we can show a little bit of that ad. and then that was followed today by the chris christie ad firing back at rubio. what do we make of this back and forth? >> well, i think basically what we are seeing is that everybody really does think that christie now doing well in new hampshire and rubio even though he's refused to say he's playing to win in new hampshire somebody's going to come into that establishment position.
assuming trump does well in new hampshire. done well in the polls. somebody will be second or do well and rubio don't want christie and christie doesn't want it to be rubio. kasich and bush playing pretty hard up there. it's a mad scramble up in new hampshire and you're right. seems personal right now between christie and rubio. christie as far as to tell "the washington post" that rubio couldn't slime his way into the white house. those are tough words. >> democrats are in nevada tonight. quick, quick synopsis of what we need to know about that? >> a jefferson jackson dinner. sanders, clinton, o'malley together. there's tension in the air because elizabeth warren and whose endorsement everybody would love to see, she's not endorsed came out speaking well of bernie sanders. >> a tweet, actually. >> endorsing and speaking well of his plan to take on wall street. and that is definitely a vulnerability for hillary clinton. >> finally, i can't not mention the boots.
it is all over the sbe net. marco rubio's boots. right? he shows up in the boots yesterday. right? just yesterday? and it's gone viral. people are speculating about what kind of boots they are, why do they have a high heel? >> how expensive they are. >> all of his opponents are having fun at his expense. >> that's the fun thing. rand paul made fun of it. jeb bush. let's face it. candidates can't deviate from a male uniform and i would say, kate, basically history shows that american presidents typically are tall. not the short side. marco rubio -- >> what are you saying? >> hey, you know, just how the history goes. he's 5'10". not a short man but maybe he wants to be taller just to increase the odds. >> uh-huh. rubio campaign online 1 for beth. >> there you go. >> thank you, beth. federal officials are in day five of that standoff with armed protesters in oregon. local sheriff says they face
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developing news out of oregon where a group of armed protesters seized part of a federal wildlife refuge. the harney county sheriff said he was assured by the fbi that the group would at some point face charges. and just moments ago, the group's leader ammon bundy was asked about calling it quits. >> there is a time to go home. we recognize that. we don't feel it's quite time yet. we feel like we need to make sure that the hammonds are out of prison. or well on their way. we need to make sure that there is some teeth in these land transfers. >> and msnbc's tony dokoupil in princeton, oregon, with the latest from there. tony, every hour i feel like we
ask you is it coming an end any time soon? >> reporter: what a difference 24 hours can make. yesterday having this conversation, really seemed like it was heading to a resolution and after dark after we went off the air ammon bundy said he heard a warrant issued for his arrest and he was suspicious that a siege is under way and a federal government coming in and at that point they really dug in. i think we have a map of what they built up last. three supporters with constructi construction equipment and a barricade to shoot from behind if the feds came and others armed protesters, didn't see guns. and then they were everywhere. four young men built a fire and set up a guard station. their leader is a 11-year veteran of the marine corps. two tours in iraq he told me. another man with a rocking chair in the middle of the road here put a rifle across his lap and essentially dared the fbi to come and serve that warrant. he said he would rather be dead
than go to jail. take a listen to the sbr viewin with him last night. if they try to arrest you, try to put cuffs on you, how far are you willing to take this? >> don't point a gun at me. you don't point a gun at somebody if you're not going to shoot them. i'm telling them right now. don't point guns at me. >> reporter: you're prepared to die. better dead than in a cell? >> absolutely. would you like to be in a cell? nobody wants to live -- live their live in a cell. >> reporter: so, moments ago, ammon bundy came out once again, held a press conference talking about when it might be time to leave and issued demands. i can't emphasize how large these demands are. i believe we have a map showing the western united states. the entire united states and the areas that are federally controlled. vast, vast stretches particularly in the west. ammon bundy want it is land out
of federal control to local and state control and not popular with the federal government or with the american people. every since the creation of yellowstone park in the 19th century people are control with the federal government controlling the wide open spaces. kate? >> that map is unbelievable. you're talking about the blm land, the land publicly federally owned across the country? that's what they want given back over? >> reporter: when they talk about land transfers, this's what they're referring to starting in this county 87% federally controlled and spread out and that's a massive unwinding as they call it. oregon more than half federally controlled. nevada more than 80% federally controlled. they have a point. that is pretty graphic. there's a mass of federal control of the areas and there's popular support for that. we haven't seen a rush of demonstrators coming to join the
current occupation. it is pretty quiet, actually. >> when the sheriff said on oregon public broadcasting the fbi assured him there would be some charges coming, do we know anymore about that? >> reporter: we confirmed that quote with the sheriff's office. so the sheriff did say that that is what the fbi told him. however, the fbi is unwilling to confirm the sheriff's comments. now, i have a feeling that the fbi don't find it very helpful to tip their hand in that way and people camped out in the middle of a road saying come get me, i dare you. they're trying to let the went doer the work. it is cold most of the time. food and supplies run low and they think eventually people want to make a deal. >> all right. tony dokoupil following that in eastern oregon, thank you so much. coming up, the president's newest attempt to curb gun violence attacked by did gop after an emotional press conference yesterday. we'll check in on how the gun debate is playing out both inside and outside the white house. to truly feel healthy on the outside
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every time i think about those kids it gets me mad. and by the way, it happens on the streets of chicago every day. [ applause ] >> that was a very emotional president obama presenting his plan for tackling gun violence here in america. the focal point of his plan to expand background checks. republicans, though, are looking past those emotions slamming him for issuing the executive action, some of them even slamming him for his emotions. for more, i'm joined by senior white house correspondent chris jansing. chris, when's the latest reaction? >> reporter: yeah, they're not surprised. you're right about that, kate. the pushback is pretty unrelenting especially from candidates running for president in 2016. donald trump and ted cruz
suggesting that the president's trying to take guns away. marco rubio saying he's trying to undermine the second amendment. as you pointed out, they expected it and, in fact, in some ways they're all for it and some of the people who were here yesterday who are gun control advocates are happy about it, as well, because they want this conversation out there. they believe that the american people are on their side. particularly on background checks, polls have shown that even republicans by overwhelming majorities want background checks. the president will be out on the campaign trail an it will be a topic there and then next week, frankly, in the state of the union address and even though they know at the white house that the president's not going to get anything significant through congress on gun control, that's not going to stop them from proposing things and heard from josh earnest something that they have been talking about far
while, a law stopping people on the no-fly list from buying guns. tick a listen. >> we believe this is a common sense proposal. if the government is determined too dangerous for you to board an airplane it should be too dangerous for you to buy a gun and we believe congress should pass a national law preventing them from buying a gun. >> reporter: the phrase of the white house is common sense proposals so these are things that they believe they can do and not hurt the prospects of congressional candidates and wewe have heard hillary clinton talking about this over 24, 48 hours or so and something that the president is determined not to stop talking about in this last year in office, kate. no matter what the republicans say. >> chris, at the white house, thanks so much. let's talk about what could happen under certain scenarios depending on who wins this presidential election. i want to bring in perry bacon. good to see you.
>> good to see you, kate. >> if hillary clinton is the democratic nominee can she build on what the president's doing? >> absolutely. i think this in some ways the executive actions didn't do a lot yet. they didn't have a lot of impact but they take the democratic party to a new place. bill clinton thought al gore lost the 2000 election in part talking about gun control too much and in '04, '08, 2012, the democrats candidates and obama in 2012 rarely talked about gun control and now i think you are going to see an election in which hillary's already talked about gun control much more than obama in 2012 and even though we're only in january. you will see a really sustained effort and some ways obama's plan really the hillary clinton gun control winning the election. he will be really in place trying to do and she wins more than he will in a lot of ways. >> perry, a lot of changes taken place not at the federal level in the past few years since newtown but the state level s. that still an avenue that
advocates talk about? >> that's, in fact, the biggest avenue right now. gun control advocates admit as long as the republicans control congress, unlikely to see much changes happen but you have seen since newtown, colorado, a lot of the blue states are passing background check expansions, limits on certain kinds of weapons and i think you will see more of that. the white house pushing that, too, to get more democratic states doing that. and we should mention, two big forces here. the nra has a lot of money and they have always organized in states. the new thing is happened gabby giffords with a group working as does michael bloomberg and new counterweights to the nra with a lot of money and much more focused on the states and the national issue and that is moving the debate particularly like i said in these blue states. >> all right. perry bacon, thank you so much for bringing us that. appreciate it. part of the president's plan focuses on mental health call
for an increase in mental health funding as well as more thorough reporting to the background check system. joining me now with some more insight into that part of equation is jeffrey swan son, professor in psychiatry and behavioral sciences at duke university, the school of medicine there. professor swan son is a sociologist that studies violence from a public health policy perspective. nice to have you with us. >> thank you for having me. >> let me ask you first about a couple of things. i have so many things to ask you about but one of the things you have written about is suicide and the suicide rate in this country. you write that for suicide in the united states the most important modifiable risk factor is access to firearms. guns used in 51% of completed suicides in 2013. in your view, what needs to happen? >> well, suicide is really the big issue connected to mental health with respect to firearms
injury and mortality because over half of the gun fatalities are suicides and mental illness is a very strong causal factor in suicides. the reason that means restriction is important is that, you know, there are a lot of people who think about suicide, fewer people who do it. ifeople try to commit suicide and they use anything but a gun, they're likely to survive f. they use a gun, they almost never survive. so it's very important to find ways to limit access to firearms at the time when someone who might be an intoxicated, impulsive temporarily distressed young person. we don't want them to have a gun at that time. problem with the criteria right now is too broad and too narrow at the same time and people inclined to commit suicide never restricted by the current criteria. >> i want to ask you more about that but to follow up on what you said and to be devil's advocate here, gun rights activists might say, carls are
heavily associated with car accidents and yet we let people drive cars. >> well, cars are not intended to kill people. guns are. that's the purpose of them. and there's no other consumer product associated with this many deaths that would not be considered to be a big public health problem. i think the issue is that it's politically sort of radioactive and with respect to automobile safety, lots of research was done and there are sensible regulations that prevent people from driving cars in unsafe ways. we don't think about seat belts nowadays and there was a time it wasn't the law and the law changed the norms. >> you mentioned a moment ago the screening and the rules for people who can have access to weapons and can't coming to mental health. my understanding is that people who have been involuntarily restricted but we miss people
who haven't been. is that right? you have written about it. you said expanding the deaf situation of gun-from hibted persons to include those with violent misdemeanor convictions and multiple dui convictions could be a more effective public health policy to prevent gun violence in the pop ligs. >> right. in our country because we can't broadly limit legal access to gun, it's finding the people who are so risky that, you know, it's justified to limit their second amendment right. that's difficult to do because violence and suicide are complicated caused by many factors and nonspecific risk factors and apply to many more people that aren't going to do it than are. the criteria, you know, if we -- if it's about risk, make it about risk. let's look at factors that -- where we know someone has a risk of violent behavior and a better predictor of violence than mental illness is broaddy
speaking and people are mental illness never involuntarily committed, angry and, you know, might have other risk factors like substance abuse aren't involuntarily mmitted and thinking about the criteria as sbepded to actually'd them people who are likely to harm themselves on other we could have better criteria without running afoul of the second amendment of the constitution. >> you're a researcher, professor, you study this mental illness and also gun violence. the cdc as i understand it has not been able to conduct gun violence research since the 1990s. congress restricted funding for research that involves guns as a weapon. is that right? >> right. well, since 1996, the dickey amendment -- what's referred to as the ban on gun violence research really isn't that. what it is is a ban on using cdc funding to promote or advocate
gun control. on the face of it. that doesn't mean that you can't use funding to study the causes. >> but does it make it more difficult for someone like you? >> yes. i think it has its -- as it's been perceived, had a chilling effect at the cdc and other organizers and funders reluctant to fund gun violence research. it's not that we haven't dub research but it's such a complex problem and we need to know more about the causes and the consequences of gun violence research and what works, how different interventions and laws and policies may work together in particularly jurisdictions to keep guns from the hands of dangerous people and also to keep people from getting guns illegally. >> if you were going to make your best argument as nonpolitically as possible to get the congress, both sides of the aisle to allow more funding and take some of the rules away, what would be your best
argument? >> i would say on the day that the 26 children, the people died at sandy hook elementary school, 90 other people died in the united states as a result of a gunshot. over 200 people injured every day and about 90 of them die. it's a huge problem and even though people might disagree on the politics of gun control, there should be a very large, common piece of real estate in the middle where we agree that dangerous people, people really at risk of harming others or themselves should not have access to a gun for their own good and public safety and ways of doing that, that are going to be respectful of the rights of lawful gun owners and avoid hopefully just adding to the stigma associated with the idea and the public mind that everybody with mental disability is dangerous and that's not true. we need to use the best evidence we have and get better evidence and i think everybody should be
able to agree on this. >> jeffrey swanson, thank you for coming in. >> thanks. the trial date is set for the only man in relation deadly attack. if convicted, he faces 50 years behind bars. we'll head out to the west coast after this break. ♪ ♪ why fit in when you were born to stand out. the 2016 nissan altima has arrived. ♪
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may increase risk of low blood sugar. imagine life with a lower a1c. are you loving your numbers? there's only one invokana®. ask your doctor about it by name. we're following developing news in california. the man accused of buying the assault rifles used in the san bernardino attack, enrique marquez, he pleaded not guilty to all five charges against him at an arraignment today and the fbi is asking for the public's health in solving a mystery in that investigation. there are 18 minutes missing essentially from the timeline of what the shooter's did after the massacre and before their fatal confrontation with police. morgan radford has been following the latest developments outside the courthouse in riverside, california. what's next for marquez? >> reporter: well, 24-year-old marquez walked into this
courthouse behind me and pleaded not guilty to all five charges against him. and those five charges include two counts of making false statements to police and one count of conspiracy. each on marriage fraud, immigration visa fraud and also supporting terrorism. if he's found guilty on all five of those counts, he faces up to 50 years in prison. but currently he's being held without bail. his trial is scheduled for february 23rd, and the u.s. attorney estimates that trial could last up to two weeks. meanwhile, as you alluded to, the mystery remains here in san bernardino and here in riverside, because the fbi came up yesterday, asking for the public's help. to help them identify an 18 minutes of missing time where they're not sure where the shooters were. they're asking for the public to provide any electronic information, such as surveillance footage or any photos or cell phone videos and that's to help them find out
what happened two hours after the shooters entered the inland regional center and just before they were killed in the shoot-out with police. today hillary clinton is wrapping up an event in henderson, nevada. tonight her response to bernie sanders saying clinton won't stand up to the big banks. and the new birthers debate, this time president obama is nowhere in the conversation. our cosmetics line was a hit.
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their fight to the airwaves. on the democratic side, hillary clinton is holding a campaign rally in nevada, where she just slammed her republican rivals. hallie jackson is in iowa conserving the cruz campaign, and jacob rascon is in nevada with the clinton campaign and where all democrats will be tonight. hallie, it's great to see you. you've been all over the state of iowa. >> i'm sorry. you're making me feel guilty. i miss you too. >> we understand you're busy. you're barn storming across the state and now you have this new story that i'm sure ted cruz would like to see die and go away about his citizenship. >> exactly. because look what he wants to be talking about, issues like immigration and foreign policy and national security and his position on the iran deal as it relates to north korea. those are the topics he wants to be addressing and those are the things he did address when he was out here in sibly. you missed it, a big event
across the street. but instead, he's facing questions now about donald trump's insinuations that ted cruz might not be eligible because he was born in canada. his mom is a united states citizen. and legal scholars agree that makes him eligible for the presidency. here's what ted cruz had to say. listen. >> look, as a legal matter, the question is quite straightforward in settled law, that the child of a u.s. citizen born abroad is a natural born citizen. people will continue to make political noise about it, but as a legal matter, it's quite straightforward. >> so political noise is what he said his rivals are doing. he's putting it to the side, refusing to really engage on this issue. we saw him tweet that faonzi clp of fonzi jumping the shark.
both these candidates, trump and ted cruz are responding to questions when asked. it's not something you are seeing trump bring up on his own. he didn't bring it up on his own at his rally. instead it's when he's approached about this, that's when he talks about it. just in september, he said ted cruz is fine on this issue. so it's a little bit of a change in position. >> got to love the fonzi reference. love the '80s throwback. >> hey! >> you've had a front seat to the cruz campaign over the last couple days. what's your perspective on the crowds, as you cruise through -- i didn't mean that pun, but what are you sensing from folks? >> i loved it. iowa is a place, kate, where ted cruz is doing a very traditional kind of retail politicking. take today, for example, and
last couple days, he's held events at 10:00 atnd at 9:00 in the morning. the crowds aren't trump-sized, but people are coming out to support him. you ask them are you for ted cruz, or are you kicking the tires? that's something people will do in iowa. and you're seeing people who are out here, they like his message. for many of them, especially in small towns like sibly, iowa, rural iowa, these aren't folks who get a chance to see candidates speak all the time. so they're coming out to check it out. i spoke with one mom today. she had her little girl with her. and she said, it gives us something to do on a wednesday. >> that's a good point. it's the entertainment of the season for iowa. i've been there myself. it's a big deal. >> reporter: and he brings -- listen, right now, ted cruz is in the national spotlight because of the fact that he's leading donald trump in iowa. he's surging here, connecting
with evangelicals, if you look at the polling numbers. so he's got a big following, national media and local media are coming out to follow his every move. >> hallie, thanks so much. let's turn over to jacob rascon in henderson, nevada, following the clinton campaign. so she's out there today and responding, i think, to -- i've heard she responded both to bernie sanders and republicans. tell me what's been going on. >> she's been stronger now than before on bernie sanders. she didn't mention him by name, but yesterday in iowa, she talked about electability. and she asked the crowd to think long and hard about the experience in positions and electability of the other candidates. that's about the strongest we've ever seen her on that issue. here in nevada, she's at the rally behind me, and the strongest applause so far was after she slammed her republican rivals. take a listen. >> they don't believe in equal pay for women's work.
they don't believe in raising the minimum wage. they don't believe we need to do anything about climate change. they're skeptical any manufacturing coming back to the united states. everything i've mentioned. they're really pretty negative, aren't they? >> she's really doing well in nevada. of course this is an important state, the first in the west caucus and the third for democrats, the third big vote of the year. she's ahead by almost double over bernie sanders and she's ahead in iowa as well, but only by single digits in the most recent polls. as we all know, she's behind in new hampshire. tonight she gets to make her case with bernie sanders and martin o'malley at a special dinner hosted by the democratic party here in nevada. she'll make her case, she may be able to answer some questions and we'll see if she goes after bernie sanders because he's been going after her more aggressively. she's yet to respond to that, on the big banks. >> jacob, thanks so much. the ted cruz/donald trump spat
that we mentioned with hallie jackson over the texas senator's birth certificate has the king of talk radio weighing in. steve? >> one of the questions here with donald trump wading into the waters with the issue of ted cruz and his legal status to be president of the united states. the question was, is donald trump sort of trying out this line of attack, to see what the response is from conservatives and to see if they encourage him and they go forward with it. if they throw cold water on it, then he'll stop. rush limbaugh is a good barometer of what the reaction will be and has really helped the trump campaign so far. limbaugh was on the air earlier today. everyone was wondering how he would react to donald trump starting to go down this road and rush limbaugh said it's okay with him. let's play that clip. people have forgotten and it wasn't that long ago, why it is
that there was a warning bell on that. it wasn't that he went after cruz. it was the way he did it. i'm not going to sit here and tell people not to go after -- that's crazy. but the way trump went after cruz, very dangerous, because he was using left-wing, liberal language. going after cruz the way a liberal democrat -- whoa whoa whoa, you don't want to do it that way. but as far as trump hitting cruz or vice versa, have at it, boys. >> what limbaugh was referring to was the controversy from a few weeks ago when donald trump had criticized ted cruz, calling him a maniac in the u.s. senate, saying that he had come from there and not gotten along with everybody necessarily. rush limbaugh did not like that from donald trump and criticized him for that. but he's saying donald trump sounded like a democrat when he went after cruz in those words. donald trump going after ted cruz on the question of where he was born and whether he's
eligible to be president, rush limbaugh saying not a problem with him. so if donald trump was trying out this line, at least when it comes to one of the most listened to conservative radio hosts in america, he got the green light. >> have we heard from anyone else today? >> we heard from ann coulter, and she's been very friendly to donald trump, very encouraging of his campaign. she went right into it and said she has questions about ted cruz's eligibility to be president, so she certainly backed him up. we haven't heard anything that emphatic from anybody else. >> thanks so much, steve. iowa voters getting inundated by tv ads, all of that next. and a michigan county and city under a state of emergency. there are dangerous levels of lead in the drinking water. new developments on that story coming up, stay with us. ♪
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with 26 days until the iowa caucuses, the political ads are flying hard and fast. $139 million spent to date, leading the charge, team bush, which now has spent almost $50 million on ads. joining me now, nbc news senior political editor mark murray. mark, i'm such a geek that i'm envious of the people that live in states where they get to see all of these ads. i find them interesting. $139 million. i'm assuming a lot of those are not so positive, kind of negative ads. >> that's right. and we probably like it when we get to go to iowa and new hampshire for our brief stops. i'm sure if you lived there every day, you will tire of these ads. to put that $139 million spent
in the 2016 contest so far, into perspective, at this same point in time in the 2012 contest, just $35 million had been spent. and it was just a republican race back then. but this is a tremendous amount of money. it's really the super pacs that are fueling all of it. jeb bush and his allies are outspending everyone else, nearly $50 million. marco rubio is in second place. in third, the hillary clinton campaign. but a tremendous amount of money spent on these ads and a lot of ads. >> if you had to single some out, have any struck you in recent days as particularly creative or effective? >> well, one that you showed in the preview was ted cruz's newest ad on immigration. it shows a bunch of what he has journalists and lawyers and doctors that he has running across the border. and it seems like it's a bit of a spoof there, but ted cruz is trying to make a larger point,
one he's railing against the media, but two, what he's trying to do is end up saying how immigration and illegal immigration ends up costing americans job. >> who spent the most? oh, i'm sorry, i was talking to somebody else, mark. happens every once in a while on live television. so from an operational standpoint, you talked about who spent the most, but is it possible to judge who is getting the most bang for their buck? >> that's a great question. what we've noticed and our ad folks have told us that campaigns on average are spending about four times less than super pacs are. the campaigns themselves end up getting discounts from the tv stations. so the amount of money that hillary clinton has spent, 13 to $14 million overall, could actually, if you times that times four, that's what a super pac is having to pay. so the campaigns get a much
bigger bang for the buck. the super pacs are having to pay a lot more and many people criticize that saying that the super pacs and outside groups aren't as efficient as the campaigns are. >> mark murray, thanks so much. >> thanks, kate. joining me now, the host of with all due respect on msnbc and bloomberg television, hi, guys. >> hello. >> we were just talking about the ads. rubio, christie, going back and forth with ads. one of them was a super pac ad for rubio, but essentially attacking each other. i want to play a little sound bite of chris christie talking about rubio. christie said, i don't think marco rubio is going to be able to slime his way to the white house yesterday and then he elaborated on morning joe yesterday. take a listen. >> i just think it's kinda funny that the guy who righteously stood up on the stage and lectured jeb push saying, someone must have told you that attacking me would help you.
apparently the same person must be talking to marco and telling him that attacking me will help him. >> how do you see this playing out? >> we're going to kick this around later, because this is a big attack. these are two heavyweights who started going at it late in '15. since new year's we've seen an explosion of attacks, not just between rubio and christie, but almost all the top candidates, sniping in one way or another at each other. and the question is, can any of this break through? they get a little bit of episodic attention, but given all the negative ads and the press releases and the tweets, can anything break through? there's been very little polling so far this year, in the key states. so you can see a lot of attacking, and a response perhaps, but is it going to change any voter's mind? >> sanders was on morning joe this morning and had some really tough language for hillary clinton regarding big banks. let's take a listen to that. >> so i think hillary clinton or
many other senators have shown the concerniurage that is neceso stand up to the wall street power, the answer is no. we need a president who stand up to the billionaire class -- >> does hillary clinton have the -- >> i'm running for period becau -- for president because i think not. >> is this what he sees as his best line of taof attack? >> no doubt he's trying to get some traction. this is obviously a big one in the sense that for a lot of democratic voters, liberals, progressives, the wall street reform that the obama administration passed in the form of dodd-frank didn't go far enough. so when bernie sanders talks about breaking up the big banks, he's more in line with the base on these issues. and without coming out quite as far as saying she's corrupt,
he's implying that she is corrupt, that she's in the pockets of wall street. i think he's going to hit it harder and harder over the course of the next month. >> you talked to the wife of rand paul. what's going on with his campaign? is he even going to be on the main debate stage at the next debate? >> looks like he might not. his big line now is that the polls are not wrong. they're not measuring the fact that there are a lot of undecided voters, and he's right. look, he has a relatively unique message in some ways, an unusual message in others. and he was the hottest candidate for a time in 2015. i'd say you have to give him and jeb bush the award for the most disappointing candidacies in the second half of 2015, but he is doged and determined, i think, to prove to people at a minimum that his support has been understated. we'll see when the voting occurs, but he's not found that
sweet spot with his distinctive message to capture the voters who have drifted towards trump and towards cruz. >> one last thing, mentioning cruz, he's got this ad out that everybody's talking about today, i
want to play a little bit of it and then we'll talk about it. >> i understand that when mainstream media covers immigration, it doesn't often see it as an economic issue, but i can tell you, it is a very personal economic issue. and i will say, the politics of it would be very different if a bunch of lawyers or bankers were crossing the rio grand. >> all politics aside, it's a pretty effective ad. it's a pretty well done ad. >> well, certainly it's an eye-catching ad. and no doubt when mark was talking before about the barrage of attacks, a lot of those are going to be in the form of ads. there's ads flooding the airwaves in iowa, new hampshire, and south carolina. this ad is getting attention. whether it's changing minds, hard to say. but cruz definitely wants to
capture some of that anti-immigration sentiment that's propelled trump to the front of the republican pack and he's trying to do that with that ad. >> great to see you guys.
>> great to see you too. >> thanks so much. don't forget, you can catch john and mark on "with all due respect" weeknights on 6:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. officials trying to de escalate the situation in oregon. they're now in day five of the siege there with armed anti-government protesters who refuse to stand down. stay with us. n by robots? no no, you can talk to a person anytime. 'cause i don't trust robots. right...well, if the portfolio you're invested in doesn't perform well for two consecutive quarters, amerivest will reimburse your advisory fees for those quarters. i wasn't born yesterday. well, actually it looks like you were born yesterday. happy belated birthday. thanks. for all the confidence you need td ameritrade. you got this.
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gray suffered a severe spinal injury in the back of a police van in april. he died a week later. the judge declared a mistrial. in the case of porter, porter's lawyers are vowing to appeal the order tomorrow morning. let's break it down with msnbc national reporter trymaine lee who has been following this from the start. you were just explaining to me during the commercial break, they don't have to call him, but they can if they want to. >> that's right. a judge has compelled william porter to testify next week in the trial of caesar goodson. >> if called? >> yes. he's been given limited immunity in exchange for his testimony in that next trial. >> what does that mean exactly? >> right. basically whatever he said in this trial, if he's called to the stand, can be used in his retrial, which begins next summer. his trial ended in a hung jury. whatever he says in this upcoming trial, they cannot use it again once he's retried.
porter had told investigators shortly after freddie gray's death and after the six officers involved were charged that at some point he heard gray saying help me, help me. he checked on him and told the driver of the van that he needed medical attention. goodson did nothing. >> you've told me before that the case against goodson was thought to be maybe an easier case for prosecutors, right? because there was more evidence perhaps that he was in the wrong? >> that's right. and from porter's own testimony saying that he told the driver goodson that there was a problem, that gray needed medical attention and that goodson did nothing. prosecutors will go on to say that goodson took freddie gray on a rough ride, that he wasn't strapped in and the manner in which the driver was driving is what caused freddie gray's injuries. >> do you expect the prosecutor will call him next week to testify? >> the judge warned the state saying he has immunity in this. you can call him at your own
risk. you won't be able to use what he says down the line. i think it's hard to tell. because the last trial ended with a hung jury. this is the big one, the driver, who faces the most serious charges. >> trymaine lee, thanks so much. armed protesters in oregon have been occupying a federal wildlife refuge for five days now. the sheriff said he was assured by the fbi that the group would at some point face charges. meanwhile, a spokesperson for the harney county joint information center says there's no information regarding arrests and that he cannot confirm remarks by the sheriff. the protesters have repeatedly said they're there to help the people of harney county by restoring their ownership of federal land. but some of the locals say they're doing more harm than good. >> well, it's been a little ridiculous. they've canceled all the schools. so our kids are not going to school now. i just know a lot of people want
them to leave. they don't need to be here. there's no reason for them to be here. >> i really think they're wasting their time. how can they do that? don't they have jobs? don't they have jobs to tend to? >> let's bring in tony dak openil who has been talking to those folks. it's surprising, because i think of eastern oregon and western idaho as an area where there's a lot of anti-government sentiment, you might think they would have sympathy. >> you would think. but we couldn't find a sympathizer on the streets. they're also running low on supplies. the guys at the guard post around the fire, they're living off donated pizza and hot wings. and i had some of that pizza, i don't know if you want to live off it for that long. another ritual, every day there's the 11:00 a.m. news conference. today he had beef jerky in his
pocket and he issued thanks for the donated soup or chili. but there's a serious question here, do the locals support this movement, this occupation? the bundys have said they will leave if they don't have local support. you heard the sound earlier suggesting they don't. but just a few moments ago, six or eight locals, who identified themselves as family ranchers in the area and they said, we don't support the tactics, the armed occupation, but we do support the ideas the bundys are putting forward. >> let me ask you about a kfrgss online today about a tweet that compared ammon bundy to rosa parks. what do you know about that? >> yeah, so the ammon bundy twitter account has been getting a lot of attention. he seems to think that he's like rosa parks, except he doesn't think that at all. that account is totally bogus. msnbc was able to confirm that yesterday, because we were talking to ammon bundy when he was supposedly tweeting and we said, this isn't you, is it?
and he said absolutely not. today he reconfirmed that in a lighter moment. take a listen. >> well, first of all, i don't have a tweet account. but from what i hear, he's actual doing a pretty good job. so just to make that clear. >> he doesn't have a tweet account, so i think that pretty much seals the deal. "the washington post," a lot of people ran with that but it's not ammon bundy. >> tony, thanks so much. for more, let's turn to jim cavanaugh, former atf special agent in charge and msnbc law enforcement analyst. good to see you again. >> hello, kate. >> we spoke about this yesterday and i feel like we're still in the same exact spot. last night, things got a little more tense. they moved in some heavy equipment. the protesters blockaded the entrance. do you think we're any closer to
a resolution? >> it's groundhog day out there in the high desert of oregon. they're holding more press conferences than donald trump. that seems to be the local activity. and this is being played very smart by the federal agents and the sheriff here. if you set up a perimeter, you're out there in the winter cold too. and you know, like the rancher said in tony's interview, don't these people have a job? it's pretty tough on the reporters out there, their teams. tony's out there, he can tell you how the conditions are at night. when the wind starts blowing, it's going to be real cold. law enforcement is playing it smart. they're already cracking. you can hear them saying, i want to go back to my ranch, i want to go back to my home. they really don't have a leader. they're self-appointed colonels and captains and they're playing army. this is going to fall apart pretty soon, i would think. >> jim, you were at waco.
what are the similarities or the differences? >> well, there are many similarities and many differences. when i talked to kor esh and his deputy sh snyder, they would refer to ruby ridge and the siege there. they spouted out a lot of the same anti-government rhetoric of the day. i mean, they were constantly. you'd think you were talking almost to a militia man the way they talked. but kor esh also would say, you know, jim, i'm 33 and i'm a carpenter. and always alluding that he was god in a way. they were a fanatical cult, believing that he was a messiah. it was a completely different dynamic in that way. even though they talked a lot about the anti-government feelings and about ruby ridge, but they had taken over that compound in waco years before in a machine gun battle. so that was very different.
>> and in terms of what needs to happen next, just quickly, jim, what's the next move for people like you, the feds? >> stay the course, draw some warrants, don't overreact. no violence has occurred. nobody's hurt. play it smart. don't give them free reign into town for gasoline and provisions. if they come off, you might make an arrest. but nobody wants these crack pots -- they're demanding half the lands in the united states and probably alaska too. so it's really crazy. they need to be arrested. >> jim cavanaugh, always good to have you. thanks. >> thanks, kate. straight ahead, rachel maddow joins us on the emergency situation in flint, michigan. dangerous levels of lead in the city's drinking water and now the u.s. attorney's office is investigating.
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that msnbc's rachel maddow was the first to bring to an national audience, flint michigan's drinking water became contaminated with lead in 2014 after the city switched to water from the flint river without taking necessary precautions. the motivation behind the switch, saving money. what came of this cost-cutting effort? a major increase in lead levels in children. >> this is the personal health equivalent of having been shot. this is not something that went bad over a long period of time. this is, they flipped a switch to turn off one spigot last april and turn on a different one. the one they turned on, poisoned the kids. the town has been poisoned. >> and now the u.s. attorney's office is investigating that contamination, and the governor of the state just yesterday declared a state of emergency in
the county and city of flint. stephanie gosk has been in michigan all day, with the latest developments. we'll begin with rachel maddow who is here with me in the studio. great to see you. you brought a lot of attention to this. this goes back to a decision in april of 2014. they switch from one water source to another water source. somebody thought this was a good idea. >> well, it didn't have to be a terrible idea. it was doable. they just did it wrong. they did it in a way that was catastrophically wrong. they were in dire financial straits. the state came in and they did this thing that you can do in michigan, it's very radical, they can essentially come in and overrule all local elections and put in place a state appointed emergency manager to take the place of anybody who you elected locally. that state appointed emergency manager, there were four of them implicated in this. what they decided to do, they were going to move flint to a cheaper source of drinking
water. and the fateful decision, before that nus source of drinking water came online, they needed an interim fix to get them to bridge between those two sources of water. they decided to use the flint river and the state gave them the okay to do it without treating that water to make it safe. that water was not so polluted with lead. that's not what gave the kids lead poisoning. it was corrosive water. they didn't treat it to become non-corrosive water and that leached the lead out of the pipes. >> stand by for a second. i want to bring in stephanie gosk from michigan, who joins us by phone. you've been looking at the water treatment. what did you learn about the cost? >> this is really incredible, jumping off what rachel just said, maybe the water treatment was expensive too, maybe that held them back as well. we've learned today it would have been about $100 a day to treat the water so that it would
not have kroded the pipes. lansing is doing something similar to their water source for about $260 a day. not a lot of money. and even though they've switched to a new water supply, a lot of the damage is done. lead levels have come down, but not to safe amounts. there are really no safe amounts of lead in water. there's lead that's exposed that could be further knocked off according to a doctor that we spoke to today. the damage is done, not to mention the very permanent damage you're talking about amongst all of the children, 7,000, they believe, in this city. >> i know you've also been able to obtain some e-mails written by a state health department employee. tell us about that. >> this is really incredible and again with the reports that rachel has done, she's tracked
this incredibly well. but we found this e-mail exchange between the governor's chief of staff, writing to some health officials at the health department, the state health department. and this is july. and he writes, quote, these folks are scared and worried about health impacts and they are basically getting blown off by us. as a state, we are not sympathizing with their plight. in response to that e-mail, a health official assured him with some numbers that actually everything is okay. but we now know that was not the case. and those assurances continued both behind closed doors and then out in the public for months and months to come. even when they had multiple independent studies telling them that lead levels were high and dangerous. >> stephanie gosk, we'll look for your reporting on "nightly news" tonight. incredible. thank you for bringing us that. rachel, i want to go back to you. you think about, was it
politics, was it just money? what is the motivation and where does the buck stop? because you mentioned the emergency manager for flint. he was a democrat, the last one. you have a republican governor. who's to blame? >> well, when the state makes a decision to come into a city and says, we don't trust you to make your decisions through democracy anymore. your officials are pushed off the table, we're taking over. you can debate the merits of that as an american governing political strategy, but clearly the state has taken responsibility for whatever decisions are made by those managers. in this case, it's compounded by the fact that the state health department does seem to have known about dangerous lead levels in internal documents. while the state, while the rick snyder administration was making the case that everything was safe. the state department of environmental quality, same thing. they appeared to have known internally, while they were publicly making the case that everything was safe. >> is that when people are still
drinking the water? >> oh, yeah. so the governor doesn't acknowledge anything is potentially wrong until late september of this past year. they made the switch in april 2014. so he makes an acknowledgement well over a year into this process. but in the middle of last summer, i'm looking at internal documents from the state health department right now. july 28th from the state health department saying, there does appear to be a higher proportion of elevated lead levels in kids. they knew this in july. the governor didn't say anything, didn't take any steps to try to switch flint's water back to a safer source. >> he declared an emergency last night. we're in january now. >> and he declares the emergency on the same day that the u.s. attorney is looking into this matter. and i don't know if they're coincidental, but the snyder administration not only caused this problem, it's not an allegation. that's what happened. they have been slowing walking any response to it. they were trying to discredit
their critics for months. a couple of resignations have been tendered now, but it's not a surprise that this may end up being a criminal case. >> the u.s. attorney's office is looking into it. they're working with the epa, collaborating on an investigation. this could potentially turn into criminal? >> it could be. we don't know if it's criminal or civil. it could be either. they're working with the epa which is investigating. and u.s. attorneys, as you know from reporting on stories like this and others for years, are notoriously tight-lipped. usually they do not leak and they certainly don't give you a head's up about something they're working on until they have to. in this case, they were getting so many inquiries and pressure in terms of the people of flint and people in the country wanting to know this is being handled that they felt they had to come out publicly and admit, yes, there's a federal prosecutor's investigation. >> and this is about kids, right? 7,000 is that stephanie said,
estimated. and they're not drinking the bad water anymore, right? >> well, the water's not safe anymore. >> they're not supposed to be drinking it. >> the water is not safe today. there's a report by one local stf station who said, there's a bunch of home water filters stacked up in a local fire department here, but nobody's going door to door handing them out. nobody's going door to door in flint providing bottled water. we've been reporting volunteer efforts driven by go fund me pages where people are setting up on their own battled water distribution centers. the response to this in michigan is almost unbelievable. this was not an accident. this was a policy decision made by the state. flint is still dangerous. people drinking the water there are still being lead poisoned. lead poisoning is irreversible and we know it's going to affect thousands of kids. >> i know you're going to have much more on your show tonight.
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bomb, calling the test a complete success in a television announcement, unlike other nukely weapon, a hydrogen bomb is hundreds of times, sometimes thousands of times more powerful. u.s. officials adequaquickly ca doubt. the state department this afternoon saying they will not tolerate a north korea with any nuclear weapons. >> we have consistently made clear that we will not accept north kor north korea as a nuclear armed state. nbc news bill neely is covering the story from london, and jim miklaszewski is at the pentagon again covering u.s. reaction to the news. mick, let me start with you. what are we hearing from the pentagon? >> the u.s. first observed north korea an preparations for some
kind of test blast two weeks ago. so according to a senior u.s. military official, the u.s. put drones into the air in the region, to start collecting air samples prior to any kind of test blast. and then shortly after the blast, put drones into the air again to collect post blast air samples. now, according to officials, what they're looking for are traces of trinium in the air, which would indicate a more advanced, sophisticated weapon than just any nuclear weapon test. and that could include a possible test of hydrogen. don't know what those test samples are going to show. it could be weeks -- days, if not weeks or months before all of that is analyzed. but i can tell you there is a great degree of speculation and quite frankly, there's little
confidence in anybody here at the military that the north koreans actual conducted a hydrogen bomb test. kate? >> jim, thanks. let's go to bill neely over in london. bill, what are we hearing from other countries and what's the diplomatic effect? >> well, you know, either way, whether it's an atomic weapon or a hydrogen bomb, it's still highly dangerous and everyone knows that. any state with a weapon that can create an earthquake 5.1, that's powerful enough to wipe out a city. it's doubly dangerous when it's a state that's creating this earthquake because the u.s. is its enemy, and it's building nuclear weapons to deter a u.s. invasion. so there's the weapon, whatever it is, and then there's the intent to use it. and the intent from north korea hasn't changed. as for the weapon itself, north korea carried out some kind of
nuclear test, but is skeptical it was a hydrogen bomb. the north koreans say it was a small hydrogen bomb. u.s. officials saying they really don't thubt that. it will be weeks before we know. some think it was in between. an h bomb would be a huge step up for north korea, it delivers more explosive power for a lighter weight. it can be just a few feet long and it can be put on a missile warhead. so either way, this is another big challenge for the international community. kate? >> thanks so much, bill neely in london. what can the u.s. do to curb north korea's nuclear ambitions? i'll bring in executive director for research at harvard's bellford center and former white house coordinator for arms control and weapons of mass destruction under president obama. nice to have you. >> thank you. >> in your analysis, and you
look at the metrics we've learned so far, do you think this was a hydrogen bomb? >> i think it's very unlikely. just based on the estimated yield, less than 10 killo tons. that's very small for most hydrogen bombs. so i think it probably is not, although it could be a test of a component of a hydrogen bomb. but we know so little about north korea's nuclear weapons program that most of this is just speculation. maybe some additional information will be obtained if the test vented and the drones are able to collect samples, but even then our knowledge is very sparse. >> the u.n. security council pledged on wednesday to pursue new sanctions against north korea on top of the four rounds of sanctions since north korea first tested a nuclear weapon back in 2006. is that going to stop them, another round of sanctions? >> it really depends on the substance of the sanctions. up to now, the sanctions have all been targeted against north
korea's nuclear and missile program. and i don't think those kinds of targeted economic sanctions are sufficient to deter north korea. the big question this time around is whether china is angry and frustrated enough to support broader economic sanctions beyond those that are limited to the nuclear missile program. and if that's the case, it could have an effect on north korea's calculation. china, of course, being in position, if they wanted to, to virtually destroy north korea's economy. i think it's unlikely beijing will be willing to run the risk, but they might take a step in that direction. and this may be the best opportunity we've had in a long time to nudge china more in our direction, in terms of increasing the priority of stopping north korea's nuclear missile program. >> thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you. now, here's mary thompson with the cnbc market wrap.
mary? >> oh, kate, another down day on wall street. the blue chip average down 250 points. the s&p losing 26, the nasdaq finishing with a loss of 56. a tough way to start the new year. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. ugh! heartburn! no one burns on my watch! try alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. they work fast and don't taste chalky. mmm...amazing. i have heartburn. alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief.
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chipotle announced today it was served with a federal grand jury subpoena as part of a criminal investigation tied to a noro virus outbreak last summer at one of its california restaurants. let's turn to jane wells on this. jane, a criminal investigation over food poisoning. what might this be about? >> well, we're not sure, kate.
all we know is what chipotle said in the regulatory filing, which is that it involved in incident in simi valley. the federal grand jury is wanting to know what happened. this case didn't get a lot of attention, but over 200 people got sick, employees and customers. there may have been an employee there that was already sick when this happened. an infected employee. whether that has anything to do with what the u.s. attorney wants to find out, we don't know. >> and this is just more bad news for chipotle. what does this mean for sales, for stock prices? >> well, they already announced today that for the first time their same-store sales for the fourth quarter are going to be down over 14%. they've slashed their earnings outlook for the fourth quarter. their estimates. they gave no earnings guidance for 2016. because more and more, between the e. coli outbreaks, the noro
virus, and with the e. coli outbreaks, they have yet to determine a cause. across several states, no employees got ill, even though they're eating the same food. >> and how rare is it for an investigation like this on a food chain? have you ever heard of anything like this before? >> very rare. i found one involving od wala in the late 1990s. a young girl died of e. coli in that case. there was a federal grand jury probe in california, and they paid a $1.5 million fine after pleading guilty. >> jane, thanks so much. that will do it for this hour of msnbc live. i'm kate snow here in new york. "mtp daily" begins right now. >> if it's hump day, chris christie is getting his moment in the sun in the gop field.
can he sustain it or it will end as badly as it did for folks like perry, walker, carson, fiorina? this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. >> good evening, i'm chuck todd, welcome to "mtp daily." here's tonight's take. with just 25 days to go until iowa does feel like the establishment is staring at their clip boards on the bench, rather than playing a full-court press. kasich, bush and christie all fighting for elbow room in new hampshire. who is missing from the tight? marco rubio. he's hoping to ride out the storm in iowa, a caucus contest that's been surrendered to the outsider wing of the party. rubio isn't hoping for a cinderella story in iowa. he's hoping to run out the clock. why? it might be the rubio campaign is watching the