tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC January 6, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm PST
it is a great honor. it is my hope the uss john lewis and the entire class of ships commemorating civil rights heroes will inspire future generations to do all they can to serve humanity and this country. the u.s. nay vl ship john lewis, a whole new class of u.s. naval ships called the john lewis class, all of which will be named after civil rights heroes. come on. best new thing in the world today. that does it for us tonight. we will see you again tomorrow. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> i will never forget the day in washington when i met john lewis by phone when he called me to ask about something. and the phone just shook in my hand. i couldn't believe that john lewis was on the other end of the line. >> i have never done anything nicer for my father the day i introduced him to john lewis. >> can i ask you to do something nice for me? >> yes. >> i need a little help. it's a pronunciation thing. the name of that state right
above california, right above the next state above where you grew up is pronounced how? >> oregon. >> one more time? >> oregon. >> okay, on twitter everyone was praising your pronunciation. >> ho dough you say it? >> i don't know. when i mispronounce stuff i don't know how i say it. >> most say ore-gone. >> i've been respecting every letter in it, which is so hard for me with the boston accent i have to conquer. >> i will tape you nevada and oregon. >> nevada i know. i learned. it took me a long time. i learned nevada. give it to me one more time. >> oregon. >> oregon. >> just say it as fast as you can. >> if you mumble it, you'll get it right. >> things got a little crazy at this hour last night in that standoff in oregon where a man who overnight has come to be
known as tarp man online. he was sitting under the tarp on this program. he was sitting under a tarp with a rifle under there. saying he was ready to confront and maybe kill any law enforcement officials who tried to arrest him. we were able to ask him a few questions when he took the tarp off last night. we'll see if he's still under that tarp tonight. and in the presidential campaign tonight, ted cruz and most of the conventional wisdom news media are wrong. it is not a matter of settled law that ted cruz is constitutionally eligible to be president of the united states. donald trump, who has spent his entire political career lying about president obama's natural-born citizenship finally has a birther case that isn't completely crazy. >> donald trump goes birther on senator ted cruz. >> do you believe senator ted
cruz is a natural born citizen? >> i don't know, to be honest. and i like him a lot. >> does it get any better than this? >> it would be quite ironic. if republican primary voters would choose somebody that actually wasn't born in the united states. >> as a legal matter, the question is quite straightforward and settled law. >> straightforward? done? settled? >> no. he only wishes. >> as far as trump hitting cruz or vice versa, have at it, boys. >> donald trump accused ted cruz of copying his immigration reform plan. >> he said, and we will build a wall. so now he's taking my idea for a wall. >> then china said, hello. i think we kind of invented the whole wall thing. >> you are in a feud with donald trump right now. do you know this? >> we can prove that donald trump is lying when he says he doesn't know you. this might be the thing that finally brings down his campaign. this might be the thing. >> ted cruz has a tortured relationship with american law, beginning with his time at harvard law school whereby all accounts he was an excellent student. but when that excellent student
became a politician, it was as if he had never spent a day in law school. >> i don't think we should entrust governing our society to five unelected lawyers in washington. why would you possibly handover the rights of 320 million americans to five lawyers in washington to say we're going to decide the rules that govern you. >> that's what presidential candidate ted cruz called the supreme court last year. the court whose authority was granted to them in the constitution by the founding fathers. the court where ted cruz himself was on the payroll, served as a law clerk to the chief justice of the united states. the chief of the court that ted cruz now calls nothing but a group of unelected lawyers whose views not only deserve respect but do not actually hold the force of law. that statement reduced ted cruz to the level of gibberish that we heard from tarp man last
night in oregon when he was describing why he had joined in seizing federal property and just might kill federal agents. but today, under the most intense pressure that any republican candidate for president not named trump can field -- which is of course, to say, an attack from donald trump. ted cruz tried to play his harvard law school card. he tried to play his supreme court clerk card. >> as a legal matter, the question is quite straightforward and settled law. the child of a u.s. citizen born abroad is a natural-born citizen. people continue to make political noise about it, but as a legal matter it's quite straightforward. i would note that it has occurred many times in history. john mccain was born in panama, but he was a natural-born citizen because his parents were u.s. citizens. george romney's, mitt's dad was born in mexico when his parents were mormon missionary, but he was a natural-born citizen because his parents were citizens. and actually barry goldwater was
born in arizona before arizona was a state and yet he was a natural-born citizen because his parents were citizens. >> ted cruz and others in the media today cited a six-page harvard law review online commentary by two former solicitors general. now this online commentary was never published in the printed pages of the harvard law review as a formal article. it doesn't have the kind of prestigious that such an article would. in that online commentary, the two solicitors general say there's no question that senator cruz has been a citizen from birth and is a natural-born citizen within the meaning of the constitution. now normally, when you hear one line like that being quoted from an article and you hear it all day in the news media, that usually means that's the only line people quoting from the article have actually read. the harvard law review online posting is a very thin piece of legal research, which was written last year, specifically to address the issue of ted cruz's natural-born citizenship.
in 2005, boston university law review published 100-page law review article of far more depth and complexity that examines the constitution's use of the phrase nat-born citizen as a qualification for the presidency. the piece was written while ted cruz was still working in texas government. it was written two years before barack obama began to run for president, and three years before the united states senate decided that john mccain's natural-born citizenship was questionable enough to be worthy of a unanimously passed senate resolution in 2008 declaring that the united states senate, at least, regards him as a natural-born citizen, even though he was born outside of the united states. there is no more authoritative legal analysis of the natural-born issue than this boston university law review article written by sarah duggin and mary collins.
it says the natural born citizenship status of millions of americans is open to question. natural born citizenship is absolutely certain only for united states citizens born post statehood in one of the 50 states, provided that they are not members of native american tribes recognized by the united states government. to varying degrees, the natural-born status of all other united states citizens is suspect. joining us now, one of the co-authors of that article, sarah duggin, an expert on constitutional law. thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you, my pleasure. >> you were on to this issue before anybody knew it was going to come up in a serious way in a presidential campaign. and in your law review article,
you do cite the cases where it had been questioned in the past, beginning with barry goldwater. also george romney. let's talk about those cases and why there were questions. in barry goldwater's case, why was there a question -- and he was a republican nominee -- about his possible natural-born citizenship. >> well, senator goldwater was born in arizona while it was still a territory. so there actually was a lawsuit. it was a very short-lived lawsuit, but a lawsuit filed challenging his qualifications as a natural-born citizen of the united states. and actually, even going back a little further e franklin delano roosevelt jr. at one time was considered a viable candidate for the presidency, but he did not end up run, and it's hard to track down why, but one of the theories is that he was born in nova scotia at one of the family homes outside of the united states. >> and the romney case i don't think is terribly significant.
he was born in mexico to american parents, but he never actually even ran in a primary. he dropped out of race before he got votes. but ted cruz's case has some unique components. only one of his parents was an american citizen. i think in the other case, certainly in the mccain case, both of parents were american citizens. mccain was born on arguably u.s. territory because it was a military installation in panama. ted cruz was born in canada, and there's another element to cruz that doesn't exist in any of the other case, which is ted cruz is the only one of these people who actually had a citizenship other than united states citizenship. he actually had canadian citizenship. >> yes. i'm not sure that that makes a significant difference here. i think that certainly it's a distinction, but the real issue is what did the framers of the constitution mean by
natural-born citizenship. and we know a great deal about why they were worried. they didn't want a foreign nobleman to come to the united states and with the power of the foreign nobility behind him actually become president of the united states. they didn't want the kind of monarch that they were fleeing from in a sense with the revolution, because if you think about it, george iii came from a foreign country and became the ruler of england. and there was certainly a lot of precedent for having foreign monarchs. they didn't want to have a foreign president because of that concern over the power of the european nobility. >> ted cruz says this is settled law. settled law is normally a phrase we use with cases that have gone through the supreme court and been adjudicated. we don't have that here, right? >> you're exactly right. it's not settled law. >> what is your reading of this as it involves senator cruz if
he were to become the nominee, what would happen? would you expect litigation? would you expect some kind of challenge. how long would it take? >> there's already a challenge. i know there's a case that's been filed in broward county, florida. they've challenging his natural-born citizenship credentials. i don't think that case will survive because the person filing it on a pro se basis, filing it in his own right is eseasontially arguing that as a voter, he has a right to vote for only constitutionally qualified candidates. usually the courts will not entertain that kind of action, because it's more of a generalized grievance than a specific injury. we heard that congressman alan grayson is thinking about filing a lawsuit. i think we would see a number of other lawsuits popping up. whether anyone would actually have standing, that is, would be a proper party to bring those lawsuit, is a question that's a very difficult one to resolve. if someone like donald trump,
though, a rival candidate, were to actually file a lawsuit, i think there's a good chance that a court would take that case to the merits. >> because an opposing candidate seems to be obviously in a position to have standing in a case like this. >> absolutely. because standing under the federal constitution requires an injury, it requires someone to have that injury traceable to a defendant's conduct, and it requires that a court order could redress it. so i think this is an important question. i think it's one that matters not only in this race, but to the thousands, tens of thousands and millions of immigrant families who believe that they are just as loyal to the united states as people who are born here. and something that is going to continue to hang over our presidential elections until we resolve it by definitive supreme court ruling or by a constitutional amendment. >> in your law review article, you rem a constitutional amendment. and within of your many concerns in this is succession. we're careful about choosing
presidents and vice presidents, but we don't think much about the others in line of succession, which goes right through the cabinet. and we've had people in the cabinet who were in the line of succession -- >> madeleine albright. >> but we would have had to skip over them because they're not natural-born citizens. >> that's a great point, lawrence. i think the fact that we are willing as a nation to give so much power and authority to these people means that we have come to an understanding that place of birth is not necessarily the best surrogate for loyalty. that said, it's not settled. >> professor sarah duggin, thank you very much for joining us tonight. i don't think this is the last time you're going to be discussing this. i have a feeling that donald trump and ted cruz are going to have this discussion go on for a while. >> i think you're right. thank you. coming up, as chris christie moves up in the polls, he now
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according to a huffington post analysis, presidential campaigns sent $99 million on the presidential race since april 2015. and just $1.7 million of that was spent to attack the republican front-runner, donald trump. normally the front-runner is the subject of the most attack ads, trying to bring him down. but not this time. coming up, more on donald trump versus ted cruz.
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and stool softeners for comfortable relief of hard stools. dulcolax, designed for dependable relief do you believe senator ted cruz is a natural-born citizen >> i don't know to be honest. i like him a lot. i don't like the issue. i don't like even bringing it up. how do you run as a republican if this is hanging over your head if there's a lawsuit. >> hee says he's natural-born citizen because his both brother is a u.s.-born citizen. >> i hope he's right. i want to win this thing fair and square. i don't want to win on this point. >> joining us now jonathan altar and kurt anderson, the host of the republican radio program studio 360. dressed in your radio wardrobe. this is how radio looks. i want to talk about what senator mccain had to say about this.
it's fascinating where he's coming down on this. >> it came up in my race because i was born in panama which was is canal zone which is a territory. barry goldwater was born in a territory. >> you were born on a base, too, weren't you zm. >> yeah, it's a u.s. military base. that's different from being born on foreign soil. so i think there is a question. i'm not a constitutional scholar on that, but i think it's worth looking into. i don't think it's illegitimate to look into it. >> he's not a constitutional scholar, and he's not a friend of ted cruz, and he's happy for you to look into this. >> it's extraordinary. and donald trump, the other line of donald trump's that wasn't in that clip is i would hate to see something like this get in his way. which really sounds like the mobster which says i would hate to see something happen to your store. >> this is how much he would hate it. let's listen when wolf blitzer
asked him about president obama's birth. this is how much trump has always hated this subject. let's listen to this. >> your critics are saying you're doing to ted cruz what you tried to do to president obama where he was born, his birth certificate -- >> it wasn't about obama. >> his mother was a u.s. citizen born in kansas. is he a natural-born citizen? >> who knows, who knows. who cares right now. we're talking about something else. i have my own theory on obama. some day i'll write another book and it will do very successfully. >> so jonathan altar. >> someone described him as passive aggressive. the thing he says when he talks about democrats filing a lawsuit, this is one of the most litigious people on earth. he threatened to sue me in 1980 for one sound bite. >> he threatened to sue me. >> me, too. >> you're depressed if you haven't been sued by donald
trump in new york. so clearly if ted cruz starts surging in this race, you can bet that donald trump will sue on this question and all spring we'll have great litigation on whether ted cruz knows how to play hockey and anything about the canadian -- >> ted cruz has gone silent on it. he did his little constitutional law turn this morning after playing it as a joke yesterday. now he won't talk about it. he's not going to answer any questions about it. if we can continue to say nothing about it, maybe it can go away. >> but if people like your professor from catholic university and others of her peers begin to say no, this is a real issue and john mccain keeps it going -- i mean, when ted cruz attempted to laugh it off with the jump the shark idea, not only -- that was a skillful
attempt, but on the other hand in terms of donald trump jumping the shark, this is the least shark jumping thing he's done practically in the campaign. >> and also by saying that somehow this story has jumped the shark, that was from "happy days" right? you've got ron howard driving the speedboat. >> we showed the video last night. twice. >> that show used to be good. so it's sort of like cruz saying yeah, that charge about being born abroad, that was fine when we were making it against barack obama, but now, oh, that charge has jumped the shark and it's not a good tv show anymore. >> john mccain had no problem getting a unanimous resolution through the united states senate where they say we believe he's a natural-born citizen. not that that has legal meaning, but ted cruz might be able to get a vote through the senate saying we don't know. like that's the best he could get. there's no way he could get a resolution. >> which would be, again, irony upon irony. the most -- one of the most
hated men in the senate, if not the most hated attempting to get the john mccain pass. >> right. bob dole said anybody but cruz. >> a quick break. why republican presidential candidates are now going after chris christie and not the front-runner, donald trump. and former u.s. senator george mitchell, up with of the great statesmen of our day will join us to talk about north korea's claim to testing a hydrogen bomb and what that means for future and what that means for future diplomacy. yup, tailgating here at the capital one orange bowl then flying out to phoenix for the national championship! what do they call people from phoenix anyway? phoenix-ers? phoenix-ites? chuck, you from phoenix, what do they call you all? phoenicians... like the blinds. no no no, you mean venetians? why would people from phoenix be called venetians? why indeed...
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>> i'm the best messenger in this field. i told him that things are starting to work out well for us in iowa as well. i think that's why you're seeing people shoot at us. >> in a new ppp poll of new hampshire voter, chris christie has moved up to third place. donald trump is in the lead at 29, marco rubio is in second at 15. kasich, cruz and bush are all essentially tied in third place within the margin of error at 11 and 10%. that means chris christie now has enough support to actually make it worthwhile for other candidates to pull christie supporters to their side. so john kasich is attacking christie in new hampshire. chris christie, tough talk, weak record. jeb bush pack hit governor christie's record in a tv ad
last week and an attack aired two anti-christie tv ads in new hampshire on tuesday. here's one of them. >> chris christie could well be obama's favorite republican governor. why? christie's record. he instituted an internet sales tax, supported common core and liberal energy policies. incredibly, christie even backed obama care's medicaid expansion. christie, one high tax common core, energy loving obama care medicaid expanding president is enough. >> today on "morning joe" chris christie said this about marco rubio. >> i just think it's kind of funny that the guy who very righteously stood up on the stage and lectured jeb bush saying someone must have told you that attacking me would help you. apparently the same person now must be talking to marco and telling him that attacking me will help him. >> back with us, kurt anderson and jonathan alter. i think the guys underneath trump all believe i can't get
any voters away from trump. i can't pull them away from trump. they look around the field and think who else can i pull them from? >> i think it's true and slightly pathetic. they're all playing in the same universe. donald trump is another wrinkle in time. he's like a character in -- like a cartoon character coming to reality. but i do think -- i mean, i've always thought, and of course, he's still down in the single digits mostly, that chris christie has much of what is appealing about donald trump, that this tough talking, urban bully thing that is appealing to people combined with a -- he's been a governor, combined with the sort of establishment credibility, i could imagine if and when the trump deflation ever happens that christie -- that a certain fraction of the trump voters would indeed go to christie. >> if there's any more christie
inflation, he ain't seen nothing yet. trump previewed last month what's going to happen to christie. if christie ever becomes worthy of the trump attack. let's listen to trump on christie. >> chris, who is a friend of mine, he hit me hard. and i said i got to hit him at least once. i won't do this a lot, but look, here's the story here. the george washington bridge. he knew about it. he knew about it. he knew about it. totally knew about it. >> and he hasn't even gotten into his weight yet. >> but john, there it is. trump, if he has to, will take that george washington bridge and sink christie into the hudson with it. >> especially since the trial opens in april. >> yeah. >> let's say christie gets some traction and he sur voois the -- survives the southern primaries, trump will hit him with a two by four. everybody will believe trump because if you talk to any kind
of hands-on governor, they'll all tell you the same thing trump is saying. of course he knew. any kind of governor paying any attention would have had to know about that. it's going to be hard for christie. i think the hug with obama is going to be hard for him in the interim. but he has been doing pretty well in new hampshire because he's a master of the town meeting and that's the big way to campaign in in new hampshire. >> one of the striking things in this poll that provides encouragement to christie is that he's now up at the jeb bush level. and we're not doing a story about jeb bush. this is about christie moving up. he's up to where jeb bush is. i come back to jeb bush every once in a while because he has held a pretty consistent position in the polls and that turnaway, if it ever happens towards the establishment, jeb push is still standing there in the states where he has to be standing there. >> john kerry was well ahead of
where jeb bush is in 2004, but he could be the last establishment man standing in a sense. i bet against that heavily, personally. >> what establishment? are there any country club republicans left? when a new year starts, i'm always very doubtful of things changing that much in the prior year, but now this race is about donald trump. will he win iowa? turns out he has a much better organization with microtargeting to bring people out to the caucuses. if he beats cruz in iowa, it's going to be very hard to stop trump from getting the nomination. >> another thing about donald trump that occurred to me today for the first time, he is oddly enough, the only wasp in the top tier of these republican candidates. and the republican party, at least as far back as i counted
has never nominated a non-wasp. that's another reason that perhaps he will indeed get the nomination. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. coming up, last night's interview with the man underneath this tarp caused a lot of reaction on social media. we will have a live update from oregon. see how he's doing tonight. there's a more enjoyable way to get your fiber. try phillips' fiber good gummies plus energy support. it's a new fiber supplement that helps support regularity and includes b vitamins to help convert food to energy. mmmmm, these are good! nice work, phillips! the tasty side of fiber, from phillips'.
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situation in north korea is all about china. >> china has total control over them and we have total control over china if we had people who knew what they were doing, which we don't. we have no leadership in this country. china can come out and frankly they will -- they say they don't have much control over north korea. they have total control. without china, they wouldn't be able to eat. so china has to get involved, and china should solve that problem and we should put pressure on china to solve the problem. this turns out to be one of those issues where there's not that much difference between donald trump and bernie sanders. >> first of all, we're going to have to lean on china. china is north korea's closest ally. they're going to have to push north korea to start adhering to international agreements. >> how do we lean on china? >> well, china and we have a relationship. china is equally concerned about what north korea is doing. north korea is a paranoid, isolated nation. if you have a hydrogen bomb,
you're a threat to china as well. joining us now, a former majority leader of the united states senate from main, george mill which he will. senator mitchell, is this all about china? >> not all about china, obviously. but it is a significant factor. and, in fact, what may be different this time than in the previous north korean test was the immediate negative reaction from cheen that. it hasn't happened before that quickly or that clearly. the question to senator sanders was what can we do about china? appeal to their self-interest. that's really the only way you're going to persuade them. dhien nies now have something at stake, a growing society, a growing economy, lifting up hundreds of millions of people out of poverty into middle class.
a massive infrastructure, growing rapidly by the day. and so having an unstable regime with an obviously insecure erratic leader in possession of nuclear weapons in the middle of a completely failed society, totalitarian country is not a benefit to china. it's a burden. >> is it yor sense that within the cheen nies government that north korea is in effect this kind of crazy cousin who they worry about every bit as much as the united states worries about? >> i'm not sure every bit as much as we do. i think they have used north korea to cheen that's interest over a number of years. but in this instance, i think they clearly recognize that an allout con frag ration, which cannot be ruled out with obviously unstable a leader as that society has, and the
insecurity of the entire regime would be disastrous for china as well. and so i think there may be a possibility of appealing to their self-interest, not to our interest, not to the interest of south korea, the interest of the chinese in somehow putting a lid on this. >> as troublesome a region as the middle east is, where you worked so hard, it always seems that when something goes wrong, last week just seemed so much more stable than this week. and this is one of those weeks where we saw the execution by saudi arabia of the shiite cleric and then the reaction in iran, brning the embassy. now we're seeing the collapse of diplomatic relations in the region by a bufrm of these governments, what's your read on the situation there? >> well, the principle you just described last week is going to be a multiplier effect over the next decades.
you'll be talking about this for a long time to come on this show, lawrence. there has been internal conflict within islam from the beginning. 1,400 years ago a bitter struggle, not religious in nature, but for political control over the caliphate that mohamed had created occurred. it lasted three decades and finally the group that prevailed became the sunnis. the group that lost became the shia. and off and on over 1,400 years that has continued. it will continue into the future with much greater intensity. consider just these figures of the 7.5 billion people in the world today, one in five is muslim. 1.5 billion. when the world's population reaches 10 billion, about 2060 you should current u.n. projections, 1 in 3w will be muslim. 3.5 billion, which to put it in perspective was the total
population of the world as recently as 1970. and these internal conflicts are going to continue. there will be a period of sortsing out as the political order that was established imposed on the middle east in the aftermath of the first world war has now collapsed and a new one is emerging. so your principle is absolutely correct and it will continue to play out over a long period of time. and the real challenge for american leadership will be to discern how and in what manner can we most influence the events there. we surely cannot expect to control them completely. >> we spent a lot of time in the last year talking about dealing with the iranians, especially in terms of the nuclear deal. talk about dealing with the saudis. the administration specifically tried to avoid this particular execution. secretary kerry spoke to the saudis about don't do this. is there a way -- what is our problem in the way we interact with the saudis? why wouldn't we have prevented
that single execution there? >> because lawrence, remember the truism that all foreign policy includes a substantial dose of domestic policy. it's very true in our own country, as this presidential campaign makes absolutely clear. and we shall not be surprised it's true in other countries including saudi arabia. the executions were a message, not just to iran, not even primarily to iran, but to internal factions. remember 15% to 20% of saudis are shia. they have been in a state of turmoil and potential revolt. and this was a message sent to them as well. we don't exclude and we can't exclude domestic politics from ourp foreign policy deliberations. neither can or will the saudis. and we have to expect this to continue in the future as well. >> so in certain ways you could say it's an indication of some
of the weaknesses of the saudi regime is that they believe they didn't really have a choice. in order to look forceful, in order to look in control, they had to do this. >> insecurity plapgs those who usually are the strongest. you'll remember the old stories about the bully. the bully is really the guy who's most afraid of being hit. and so he strikes out and lashes out first. there is a high level of insecurity not just from a sunni shia divide but inside sunni islam itself. most americans don't appreciate between persians and arabs. this is not just sunni saudis against shia iranians. this is a persian err rab hostility which is deep long standing and will continue. >> always a pleasure and an
honor to have you on the program. thank you very much for coming in. coming up, samuel l. jackson of all people versus donald trump, of all people. and, of course, we're going to go back to oregon tonight and check on the guy under the tarp. see what he's up to tonight. he! no one burns on my watch! try alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. they work fast and don't taste chalky. mmm...amazing. i have heartburn. alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief. gas mileage, horse power, on ttorque ratios... three spreadsheets later, you finally bring home the one... then smash it into a tree. your insurance company is all too happy to raise your rates... maybe you should've done a little more research on them. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance.
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charges will come at some point. however, a representative for the fbi refused to confirm that to msnbc. a few hours ago, sheriff ward spoke to members of his community. >> there have been things going on in the community that maybe was our visitors, maybe it wasn't. deputies followed home, their families followed around. people outside this community followed my parents around. stand up, mom and dad. you don't come here and intimidate people. you're not invited to come here and bother with our citizens. it doesn't matter that they're my mom and dad. anybody's mom and dad. i'm asking as a sheriff of harney county that the people that are occupying our wildlife refuge go home and let us get back to our lives as we live them here.
>> earlier today, members of the tribe whose ancestors were on that land long before any rancher spoke to the press. >> by their actions, they are discrating one of our sacred sites. they are endangering our children and the saferty of our community and they need to leave. armed confrontation is not the answer. >> mr. bundy comes in and talks about 1890. well, before then it was occupied by our people. so if mr. bundy wants to discuss more about that, that's where we're coming from. we want to get the facts straight. >> what if it was a bunch of natives that went out there and overtook that? or any federal land. what would the outcome be? think about that. what would happen? would they let us come into town and get supplies and reup?
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tarp and he finally agreed to talk to you. is he there tonight? and have you heard anything more from him? >> good evening, lawrence. lavoy is not under the tarp any longer tonight. of a the cameras left and the lights went off, he said he spent some time under the stars pondering his situation and he came to the conclusion that he didn't want to die, didn't want to be arrested and he thinks he saw a way out of his predicament. we just got a call from a law enforcement source that's been tailing the leadership contingent here, including lavoy and they're in town having dinner at the pine room, which is known as one of the best restaurants in nearby burns. so perhaps they are coming to some conclusion that could get us out of this situation. we're hoping to find out more later tonight. but the news is he's no longer under the tarp and he seems to be moving into more of a conciliatory position, looking for a way out. >> tony, did law enforcement people involved in this
understand how strange this is for americans to be watching these people go in there and break these laws and then just go to dinner uninhibited by a law enforcement in any way? >> i think they absolutely understand how strange it is. i think they also appreciate the history of this kind of situation turning very, very bad. in 1992, in waco -- sorry, 1993 in waco, federal agents tried to serve a ar warrant to the people who had legal guns in a. co-pound in texas and shots rang out and 82 people i think was the total, more than 80 people ended up dead. a year before that in ruby ridge, idaho, not far from here, there was another bloody altercation, there seems to be a propensity for a violent end where there are mostly white contingents holding properties. because of that history, law enforcement plays it very safe. and that's why there's some freedom of movement. they don't want to escalate the situation by putting pressure on it themselves.
>> but tony, in none of those cases did the people involved in the siege just decide, well, we're going to go into town in waco and we're going to go to the big restaurant in town and we don't care how many federal agents are out there trying to get us. we're going to do that. so obviously this situation is completely different from those. and there's plenty of reason to now get the feeling that these people, you know, do not have anything behind their threats. and what would prevent authorities from going up to them in that restaurant and just cuffing them? >> well, the risk there is you play into their hands. they want a confrontation with police, according to law enforcement officials we talked to, former law enforcement officials. this group is trying to make a political point and the best way they can do that is to cause an altercation. perhaps a violent altercation, any kind of altercation and an
arrest in a swanky restaurant inside burns would certainly help. >> so far they seem to be making the political point that american law doesn't apply to them, which i think is the point they're really trying to make. >> that point is. coming across loud and clear. >> thank you very much for joaning us tonight. really appreciate it. look out ted cruz. donald trump's checking pass ports. let's play "hardball." it is too ridiculous. i'm chris matthews in washington. last night hillary clinton told us she is not going to talk about donald trump anymore. today ted cruz has a big problem doing the same. why? because donald trump is out there questioning whether cruz who was born in canada is trully a natural born american. cruz and the republin