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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  January 14, 2016 7:00pm-8:01pm PST

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said they would put it back on the docket to discuss it again starting tomorrow. so i don't know if hope springs eternal for the convicted governor, but hope certainly does have a little more spring in its step than it used to. tomorrow may very well be the biggest day in this case yet. watch this space. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> thank you. i'm watching the debate. we're going to watch it now. the republican front-runner for the presidential nomination had to wait 19 minutes to speak his first word in the debate tonight after the moderators called on six other candidates before they finally asked donald trump a question about refugees. but the debate really started at 9:26 p.m. when ted cruz was asked about being a natural-born citizen. joining us now is our msnbc correspondent at the site of that republican debate.
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also with us, david frum, senior editor for "the atlantic" and eugene robinson for the washington most an an msnbc political analyst. casey, that seemed to be the ignition for this debate tonight is when that subject came up, natural-born citizen to ted cruz. the back and forth went on for at least ten minutes it seems. >> it went on for quite some time, lawrence. and i'm sure it's going to, no matter what happens with the remander oaf this debate, dominate many of the headlines. cruz in some ways taking this attack to donald trump in a stronger way than we've seen some other candidates who tried to go after him on stage. the back and forth between them showed cruz standing in many ways, seeming like an equal to trump, which has been the main challenge of this all the way along. but trump at the end of the day made this seem like an big overarching issue that he wasn't necessarily raising himself, but
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pointing to lawyers and others who say this might be simply raising the question. and trump saying the reason he's doing this now is because cruz is rising in the polls and he might actually do well against him. in a norral election cycle, people might be put off by someone saying they're doing something for political reasons. i'm not sure here if that's perceived as, in fact, a little bit of honestly from donald trump. >> cruz tried to say once again this is a matter of settled law. and trump quoted lawrence tribe who was ted cruz's constitutional law teacher. lawrence tribe first started speaking publicly about this on this program where he raised doubt about the question of whether ted cruz is actually meeting the qualifications of natural born citizens to be
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president of the united states. professor tribe gave us a statement tonight in reaction to what ted cruz said about him on the stage. ted cruz said he's not surprised that lawrence tribe is doing thisser because, as ted cruz put it, lawrence tribe is a huge hillary supporter. he dismissed all of lawrence tribe's scholarship on this matter, simply by the notion that he's a huge hillary supporter. here is professor lawrence tribe's response to what he heard on the debate stage tonight. quote, i endorsed obama over hillary in 2008 and haven't endorsed anyone for 2016. cruz is just make things up. truth seems to be beyond his reach. very sad. eugene robinson, that's lawrence tribe's response to what he heard. how do you think it played in that debate? >> well, lawrence, i think basically that any minute spent
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talking about ted cruz's eligibility on a debate stage is a good minute for trump and a bad minute for cruz. cruz is there having to explain why he is eligible to be where he is standing and why he is eligible to run for president. i don't think that is good for the cruz candidacy at all. you know, they went back and forth. you could grade the witticisms any way you want. i just think that the whole extended discussion probably played better for trump than for cruz. >> david frum, you have the cross border perspective on this, being from canada yourself. the audience there seems to have been equally divided amongst supporters of every candidate. because in the first round of questioning, every single answer by every candidate seemed to get the same amount of wild cheering applause. and on this issue, as it was
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going back and forth between trump and cruz, there was some booing, there was some cheering. it was hard to read the crowd. but read for us the republican politics of this outside of that debate hall tonight. >> you had it exactly right. if donald trump wins iowa and wins new hampshire, this theory that has been dominating the party that he's simply going to melt away somehow, that becomes hard to sustain. the great question mark has been, maybe he won't win iowa. maybe someone who appeals to the more religiously traditional portion of iowa could win. all he has to do is shave off 2%, 4%. it depends on which poll you look at the. but he doesn't have to crush he doesn't have to damage him. him. he just has to shave him. if trump wins iowa and then -- i think it's pretty generally expected that he will go on and win new hampshire. how does this race recover from
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that from the point of view of any of the other republican candidates. and although i think cruz was dominant and correct and witty, trump continued to sew the seeds of doubt while denying he was doing it. >> and casey, does the cruz campaign point to -- if they can pull out a win in iowa, where do they point on the electoral map to their next win? >> south carolina, lawrence. right where we're standing tonight. i mean, the question, i think, that overrides a lot of this is if donald trump does, in fact, lose to ted cruz in iowa, how does trump personally react to that? he isn't someone who typically takes well to losing. however, if he's able to go into new hampshire in the position that he's in now and potentially do well, the fight is going to come down here. we've seen historically iowa doesn't necessarily make the deciding -- be the deciding factor here. south carolina has a much stronger history of anointing
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eventual nominees. and the reality is that, you know, trump is pretty strong here, but cruz has also appealed to some of the evangelicals. he's also appealing to many of the more libertarian-focused voters that there might be out there. there's a lot of them actually in south carolina. especially if rand paul tends to fall off. and then from south carolina, you've got nevada, and then you're on to the scc primary states. and that's a place where cruz has focused a lot of his energy. so i have to say, the republicans are also meeting here. the rnc is having their meeting in charleston. and i was over there earlier today talking to folks. the discussion has almost come down to, if trump and cruz are our choices, who do we think is more palatable? i mean, there's almost -- there's so much less discussion of trying to figure out who is this establishment guy going to be that we can all get hbehind and try to unite our party. the ad war is extraordinary intense here in south carolina. there's a very tough is ad from the jeb bush super pac calling
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marco rub yore a weather vane on immigration. it could take down marco rubio potentially for cruz if he can manage to stay in a strong position as far as here. >> the reason we're talking about south carolina is in the polls at the moment indicate that donald trump doesn't seem to have any real problem in winning new hampshire. something is going to have to change there for there to be someone else on top in new hampshire. and so gene robinson, we're looking at your home state. we're looking at south carolina as the one that tells us who might be two wins by that time. and as we frequently do, those first two have their own way of settling things in iowa and new hampshire. how do you handicap the republican race when it turps to south carolina? >> right now, trump is obviously way ahead according to the
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polls. there hasn't been a lot of frequent polling in south carolina. but there's another interesting moment in tonight's debate when trump was asked in a somewhat chastising tone, are you really angry like nikki haley, the governor seems to say you are. and trump said yeah, i'm very angry. the country is being run horribly and i'm angry about it. and i point to that because remember what happened four years ago in south carolina. the distinguishing characteristic of the republican electorate in south carolina four years ago was anger. to the surprise of the establishment in south carolina. and the state ended up voting for newt gingrich, largely on the basis of a very angry anti-obama speech and debate performance he had had just a little bit before the primary. so there is this sort of hard
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edge that south carolina can sometimes adopt when it comes to election day. again, i think that was another moment i would say was probably good for trump. >> a quick break here. casey hunt, thank you very much for joining us from south carolina tonight. jonathan allen will join us. he's going to talk about why some democrats are now worried that donald trump might be a tougher candidate than they thought to beat in a general election if that's what it comes to. and tavis smiley will join us to talk about the little dustoff he had this week. or big one, with donald trump. this is joanne.
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joe biden is not the only democrat who thinks the unthinkable is now thinkable, is now possible. but he is the highest-ranking democrat who has said that, yes, donald trump could win the presidency. >> yes, i think it's possible. and i hope that if that were to occur -- i hope it doesn't because i have fundamentally different views than he does -- i hope that he gets a lot more serious about the issues, a lot more serious about gaining knowledge about how this nation functions and foreign policy and domestic policy. but look, that's a long way off. a. >> and roll call, jonathan allen writes, quote, for a long time, democrats seemed content to watch trump wreak havoc on the republican primary field. now, though, it's clear they're alarmed at the possibility heck win the presidency. jonathan allen joins us now
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along with eugene robinson and david frum. >> jonathan allen, i'm starting to hear exactly what you reported -- look, let's just concede, the attitude on trump across the board with all of us, democrats, republicans, operatives, pundits, has changed over time. it has had to change over time. the facts on the ground have changed over time. but democrats who used to think what a gift, how lucky could we be to run against donald trump, aren't so sure about that anymore. >> yeah. it's a double-barrelled concern. number one, they see him as somebody who could win the presidency in terms of the political map. and then number two, they're worried about what he would actually do if he became president of the united states. >> and gene robinson, there's a fear among democrats that donald trump is willing to throw punches that no one else would even think about throwing or even know how to do. i mean, as he came out of the gate talking about bill
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clinton's past, bill clinton, they've never, ever -- hillary clinton have never had to campaign directly against a candidate raising the accusations about bill clinton's past. >> right. and look, if donald trump -- no one should never say oh, no, he'll never go there, right? he will go there. he goes there every time. and if you look at where he was when he started his candidacy and no one took him seriously and no one thought he would do particularly well, look where he is now. i think anyone who underestimates him as a politician, has someone who has figured this sort of disinter mediated world perhaps better than other politicians have, and a way to get his message through, you know, anybody who underestimates him i think is nuts. and again, when he gets to the general election, if he does
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does anyone think for a minute that he will feel particularly bound by what he said in the primary? i actually don't. i think he won't just sort of slide to the center. i think he'll go all over the map wherever he needs to go. >> andrea mitchell raised this with nancy pelosi this week. let's listen to this. >> trump accused by hillary clinton of sexism. he then tweeted out. watch out, if you go there, i'm going to go there. and then he goes after bill clinton and bill clinton's past. and we saw a noticeable change in the clinton world. i was out on the campaign and the pulling back by both hillary and bill clinton. a new caution out there, because obviously donald trump is a volatile adversary. how fraught is this with risk for the democratic party and for hillary clinton's candidacy? >> well, i believe that hillary clinton want to talk about the
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issues that affect people and their everyday life. >> but on the issue of bill clinton past, is that fair game? >> it would be if he was running for president. but he isn't. hillary clinton is running for president. >> david frum, i have a feeling that donald trump isn't going to play by nancy pelosi's rules. >> he's not going to play by anyone's rules. he just saw the republican candidates dig themselves in. hey, 50 caliber machine guns? i'm for them. personal flame thrower, i'm looking myself here on national television. but donald trump has an ability to pivot. for example, on the issue of health care, every other republican on that stage is committed in one way or another taking health care coverage away from millions of people who have it now. donald trump is capable of saying almost anything. it's not just -- i think actually the clinton sexual issues are -- that's misdirection. the mother load of pain and damage is on the financial
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scandals. the clinton foundation, how the clintons got so astonishingly rich at a time when mrs. clinton was secretary of state and likely next president of the united states. that is the kind of thing that donald trump delights in talking about. he delights in talking about the corruption of the american political system, which the clintons unfortunately do exemplify. and so it is -- i forget now whose line it is it's like driving in a nascar race where one of the drivers is drunk. he's not drunk. he's just willing to take risks that nobody else is willing to take. >> if donald trump wants to get into talking about complex financial transactions involving the clintons, he's got an awful lot of complex financial transactions. he's got involvement with the mafia and others in building buildings in new york city. it seems to me, that would be an area where he would be happy to have a truce with the clintons. >> thing his strategy is always whenever he's got a vulnerability to attack the other side, his opponent for
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whatever similar vulnerability they might have to get out there first on it. and so far it seems to be pretty effective. obviously there's a lot to dig into on donald trump. if he makes the general election 37 i think you'll hear a lot more about these things. but right now, he's on the attack so much, it's hard to dig in on him because every five minutes there's a new tweet making news. >> to the point that andrea mitchell was raising, which was an observable clinton campaign retreat away from engaging in any kind of combat with donald trump, do you have any sense of disappointment among democrats, among clinton supporters who were eager. oh, they can't wait for bill clinton to get out there, see what he has to say about donald trump to discover bill clinton isn't willing now to say anything about donald trump. >> to tell you the truth, what i
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detect from the clinton camp right now is paying more attention to bernie sanders to donald trump. >> yep, good reason. >> they've got a primary campaign on their hands now. seven points in the latest national poll. and they've got to try to win iowa and new hampshire or they're not going to get the chance to go after donald trump. >> and the electability argument, david frum, has become complex for hillary clinton, since we show bernie sanders actually outperforming her, specifically in the matchup with trump. he does significantly better than she does. >> again, i worry about polls that ask people questions they really haven't thought about until the pollster called them. and my guess is also the democratic vote co-ealealesces they run pretty much the same. the democratic vote dropped by a little more than 3 million votes between 200 and 2012.
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the republican vote went up by only 900,000. those voters did not leave barack obama for anybody, they just weren't inspired in 2012 in the way they were in 2008. i think even hillary clinton's best friends will say she's not as inspiring a figure as barack obama. >> gene robinson, thanks very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. up next, the race, bernie against hillary. it could not get much closer. it's definitely getting angrier. and coming up, a report from mexico about how prison officials are trying to prevent el chapo from escaping again. vee rheumatoid arthritis like me... and you're talking to a rheumatologist about a biologic, this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira helping me reach for more. doctors have been prescribing humira for more than 10 years. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that
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>> we were running against a candidate who was deemed by the media and the establishment as the inevitable nominee. it turned out that what was considered to be inevitable may not be quite so inevitable. >> iowa poll from the des moines register in bloomberg politics shows a tie within the margin of error for bernie sanders and hillary clinton. secretary clinton is at 42. bernie sanders is at 40. today, bernie sanders released this tv ad that will run in iowa and new hampshire.
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>> there are two democratic visions for regulating baltimore. -- wall street. one says it's okay to take millions from big banks and tell them what to do. my plan, break up the big banks, close the tax loopholes and make them pay their fair share. then we can expand health care to all then provide universal college education. will they like me? no. will they begin to play by the rules of our president, you better believe it. >> what we had is senator sanders said he wouldn't add a negative ad. he's running them now. >> joining us now joy reid and back with us, jonathan allen. joy reid, there is a higher level of sensitivity to the definition of negative ads. this is like the menu at the restaurant. chicken is doing a negative ad against steak by saying the two of us are here, it's up to you.
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>> i find it odd that the clinton campaign is running against bernie sanders like is really is barack obama in 2008. the same sart of hyort of hypers of his rides, the fear that he's going to win iowa. when i think if you really look at bernie sanders and look a what he's doing, he's a lot more like jesse jackson in 1988. he's a candidate running on an idea. he's not so much running on what barack obama was running on '08 which is the audacity of hope. i, as a basically run of the mill democrat, left of center, but against the war, which most americans were at that point, not proposing any radical new ideas, not saying we're going tot democratic socialism. my democratic barack obama, i'm just black, that's my only difference, i could win. that's a hope that base democratic voters could latch on to. they could also see the realism after he run iowa. >> where would the obama
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candidacy have gone if he had not been recorded as being against the iraq war. that was the single biggest governing decision difference between barack obama and hillary clinton. and it was also the biggest issue of the decade. >> and it was an issue that the democratic coalition and a lot of republicans and independents turned four square against the war at that point. finally the reality of there not being wmds kicked in for the majority of americans. i think the difference is there's no that stark a difference. she was for i remark he was against it. that was a stark difference. bernie sanders and hillary clinton are both running to the left on economic issues. it's just that i think for bernie, the reason i liken him more to jesse jackson is that he's running on a wholesale radical change. and just the way we do everything in this country when it comes to economics, which is super attractive if you're a liberal, but it's not necessarily -- i don't know.
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i think people have to get over that hump over whether that could actually get him elected as president of the united states. >> it's my impression that clinton campaigns, when they're running scared, do not know how to look like they're not running scared. >> i see a blip on the radar and they go running for the nuclear codes. it's unbelievable. i don't have any reporting on this, but i assume there are people inside the clinton camp that are saying things like, make we ought to not overreact to what's going on here. but what i do know from a gut level in having reported heavily on the clintons before is that this decision is coming from the top. >> let's take a look at what hillary clinton said tonight to rachel maddow. i've got to say, hillary clinton is the one person in the clinton campaign who to me does not give off the air of running scared. let's listen to this. >> basically, it's also a very direct criticism of barack obama
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who, as you might recall, took a lot of money from the financial industry when he ran in 2008. that didn't stop him from fighting for the hardest regulations on wall street since the great depression. it's a funny kind of charge. it's a pox on all your houses for all the democrats. and i think that's what raised some eyebrows. >> joy, she handles this situation, i think, better than the campaign around her does. >> she has an air of calm. and that is another difference with 2008. you could feel the alarm and fear and discoumbobulation in 2008 essentially running against afterman americans. they were freaked out when he won iowa. this time he's running with a calm. she actually has around her own person a sort of calm and kind of a confidence that's actually working. but her campaign is behaving as if it is def-com one.
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>> bernie sanders picked up a very local and very important endorsement in new england from paul kirk. paul kirk, this is as -- this is one of the versions you can get in this campaign of ted kennedy speaking from the grave. paul kirk was the appointed senator who took ted kennedy's seat, lifetime friend of ted kennedy. former chairman of the democratic party. lifetime massachusetts resident. here he is endorsing bernie sanders today. >> of all the presidential candidates, bernie sanders is that one choice speaking consistently, courageously, passionately, and credibly about what he and i and i suspect most americans believe, and that is that the core value of our democracy have been seriously endangered and need to be renewed by this generation.
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i am here tonight to join in this untiring effort. and as a former chairman of the national democratic party to proudly endorse bernie sanders for our party's nomination for president of the united states of america. >> jonathan allen, part of the braen trust of the kennedy machine with that endorsement. >> certainly the left has fallen in love with bernie sanders. i think what will be interesting to see is -- and i think this has been the issue for bernie sanders all along. is he going to be able to pick up people of color? is he going to be able to pick up votes of women in the democratic primary. iowa and new hampshire are very, very white states. and i think his support group has been that. this week we saw an endorsement of hillary clinton by eric holder, not only the first black attorney general but i think a lot of people will argue the attorney general who has done most for african-americans and looked out most for african-american interests during his time, certainly since
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bobby kennedy and probably of all time. you know, i think that's going to be the challenge for bernie sanders. can he win iowa, can he win new hampshire? and then can he start to pull in a more diverse base? >> we've got to leave it there for tonight because we have tavis smiley coming in. thank you both for joining us tonight. coming up, we will hear once again from tarpman. one of those insurgents up there in oregon at the bird preserve. and tavis smiley will get the last word tonight. and it will probably be about donald trump.
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>> then you see, okay, in the background. there's a blue tarp. you might be thinking what's under that tarp? supplies? some fearwood? no, the answer is so much better than that. >> over my shoulder is a man under a blue tarp sitting in a rocking chair with a rifle over his lap. >> so there's a guy under that tarp there? >> there's a 55-year-old rancher from arizona named lavoy. >> that's right, lawman. he's under the tarp and i ain't ever coming out. >> today, msnbc's tony dekoepel spoke by phone with lavo lavoy finicum, also known as tarpman. >> how is it going? is there a resolution? >> there's a specific thing we're trying to accomplish. talking to the residents, the
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most important thing is the federal government does not come back into this building. that's very important that that doesn't happen. so when the residents can come in here and use this facility and make it theirs and not be under the threat of the federal government that is one of the steps that determines how quickly we can get out of here. >> and if they try to arrest you, is your intention still to resist? >> well, again, i just go back. let's just don't point any guns at each other. there's no need to go there. and this is about not about the tebt amendment. this is about the states and counti counties exercising their rights over their own resources. >> there are people who think what you're doing is a crime and you're criminalings. what would you say to people who think that way? >> let's consider who is the real criminal, who is the law
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abider and who is the lawbreaker. the federal government has no rights to control 1 thursday of the land mass with complete legislative authority. that is repugnant and against the intent of the constitution. be clear, they're the law braerks, not us. >> tony dekoepel also had the tarpman how he's enjoying his 15 days of fame. >> what do your wife and your kids think about your newfound role as a televised celebrity? >> well, you know people are out there calling me tarpman. i don't know if you heard that. >> i have. >> so all my kids call and say dad, dad, that's great. they say can we roll with that? can we make some t-shirts? you're going to be like spiderman, batman, superman, tarpman. i said no, i don't want that. no, we really want to do it. okay. so they're making t-shirts with
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superman, or tarpman. so i'm not a soup action figure. the only difference is i'm actually real. >> hollywood, get up there now. you can get the rights to tarpman pretty cheap. especially as long as he's still under the tarp. coming up, how mexican officials are trying to keep el chapo from escaping. i have asthma... ...one of many pieces in my life. so when my asthma symptoms kept coming back on my long-term control medicine, i talked to my doctor and found a missing piece in my asthma treatment. once-daily breo prevents asthma symptoms. breo is for adults with asthma not well controlled on a long-term asthma control medicine, like an inhaled corticosteroid. breo won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. breo opens up airways to help improve breathing for a full 24 hours. breo contains a type of medicine that increases the risk of death from asthma problems and may increase the risk of hospitalization in children and adolescents. breo is not for people whose asthma is well controlled on a long-term asthma control medicine, like an inhaled corticosteroid. once your asthma is well controlled,
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the same prison outside of mexico city that he escaped from last july. more on how mexican authorities plan to keep el chapo behind bars this time. jac jacob? >> lawrence, it's one of the great questions in this story. what is mexico going to do to make sure that what happened last july, el chapo's elaborate, dramatic and embarrassing escape doesn't happen again. we sat down with mexico's prison boss, the commissioner, who said that since the escape, the entire federal prison system has been upgraded. among those upgrades, el chapo guzman is being watched physically and electronically 24 hours a day. he's never left alone. there's no longer any blind spot in his prison cell. in fact, all blind spots from all prison cells have been eliminated. there is no privacy. and he doesn't stay in one cell either.
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el chapo guzman has been moved eight times already in a week and he will continue to be moved. and that's not just true for el cha chapo, but for many of the 23,000 prisoners across the prison system. in addition, the prison boss tells me that there are now infrared cameras that are connected to motion sensors on the floor that will help a lot. in addition to that, there are extra personnel and some of the tow es. there are extra vehicles inside. there are extra medical detectors. he was put in the position only months after the last prison esca escape. he said he did it. his last words to me are i'm
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confident. coming up, the last word goes to tavis smiley who's had a few words this week. but with my back pain i couldn't sleep and get up in time. then i found aleve pm. aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. i'm back. aleve pm for a better am. starts with arthritisg pain and a choice. this is sheldon, take tylenol
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as ben carson is in the middle of the debate talking about how he would handle the finances of the united states of america, his national finance chairman for his campaign, dean parker, resigned this morning. dean parker has been facing criticism for lavishly spening campaign money and paying himself $20,000 a month. "the wall street journal" reports that carson campaign documents show the campaign has less than $10 million on hand now, even though they've raised $43 million over the last six months. ben carson is fourth in the new nbc news/wall street journal worth released tonight. tafs smiley will join us next for tonight's "last word." can y?
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extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you. >>. >> there's nothing pundits hate more than rising poll numbers for candidate. and so they tend to give respectable reasons for rising poll numbers for candidates, reasons that include the skills of the candidate, the mood of the voters, and so most pundits attribute the astonishing rise of donald trump to anything but race.
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tavis smiley is not a political pundit and so his view is not clouded by the conventional wisdom of sunday shows. >> what troubles me, though, is that trump is still to my mind at least, an unrepentant, irascib irascible, religious and racist arsonist. when you talk about how he's risen in the ball, you can't do that abseptember of the campaign he's running. to just say he's rising in the polls and not connect that to the base message he's putting out there i think dismisses the point. >> donald trump responded on twitter saying, why does this week with george stephanopolous allow a hater and racist like tavis smiley to race good air time. nbc can do much better than him. the last word is not do much better than him. and i'm proud to say that tavis smiley joins us now from washington. his new book is "the covenant with black america -- ten years later."
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welcome to the honor roll of those attacked by donald trump, lied to by donald trump. >> i've run into him a number of times but never had this situation. it kind of feels like being onyx son's interview list. i'm just trying to handle it. >> yeah. anyone who's publicly commenting on the campaign who hasn't made the trump hate list i think isn't quite doing the job right. i want to get to what you were talking about on sunday. i think it's so important. and that is, the way the political class especially in the media is trying to describe this rise of donald trump, one of the principles i think they all begin with, and i don't know whether this is sub conscious. i think it might just be built in in a way that they aren't quite aware is, what i would call an excessive respect for the voter. we must never say anything about the voter that's uncomfortable to hear, that's negative.
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i haven't heard any of the discussions except the one you were in which was very good. you were very good at intuesdaying this kind of dynamic. every discussion i've been about this, i always begin with and don't have much more to say than 66% of trump's supporters believe that president obama is muslim. and 60% of trump's supporters believe he is not an american citizen and an illegitimate candidate. so if you take those away, trump would be polling down around 10%. . but you can't take those away because that's the heart and soul of his support. >> i couldn't agree more. there are plenty of uninformed voters. we don't want to in our politically incorrect way of behaving, i don't think we want to demonize the voters. it's one thing to be uninformed and it's another thing to be
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misinformed or disinformed. what donald trump continues to do is misinform and disinform. i couldn't agree more with your thesis. let me add something else, though. i was talking to friends earlier today, lawrence. i think i had an epiphany when i was in new york. i'm in washington obviously tonight. but for the past few days i've been in new york on book tour. and i say that respectfully. i think that for all my friends in new york who are covering donald trump, i did all the network shows when i was there basically. it occurred to me for those who know donald trump in new york city and see this kind of bluster and bullying and bravado all the time, i think to some degree, lawrence, they see donald as just being dopd. and they haven't made the connection yet, but this is not a fight with rosie o'donnell. this isn't "the celebrity apprentice." this isn't another construction site he's arguing about, another property he wants to buy. when you start bullying and the kind of bluster and then you add to that this religious and racial animosity, this is a race for the white house.
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this is about being the leader of the free world. and so to keep passing this off as donald being donald because they're sort of used to that, number one. and number two, because they come in contact with him in celebrity circles, they're not doing their job, i think, the way they ought to be doing it. so i'll say it before and say it again. it's not just about covering him. it's about challenging him. not just about covering him, but condemning him when he engages in this kind of sooxenophobia. >> la >> week we had tom turnipseed who said donald trump is george wallace. everything about it stylistically is the george wallace campaign, has exactly the same spirit. tom turnipseed completely turned against what we call wallacism of that era. he became a civil rights lawyer himself. very changed man. but i don't remember anybody, you know, where i come from who
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was even slightly confused about why people were voting for george wallace in 1968. nobody tried to make up any fancy explanations for that. >> i don't think frankly lawrence that our colleagues in the industry, the broadcast business, the news business, i don't think they're confused either. i think what's happening here is we've got a horse race. and the media loves covering the horse race. they love covering the cat fight. who knew a few weeks ago, a few months ago. the republican nomination might be decided before the democratic nomination. people thought hillary had that locked down. we may get a republican nominee before we get a democratic. they love the fighting. we love the fact that we've got some outsiders trump is entertaining. let's be honest, we're getting ratings off of this. we're selling newspapers. so nobody wants this thing to end so quickly because it's
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entertaining. it's exciting for us. it isn't the same boring ride that we normally get. as you well know, a lot of folk don't even cover them anymore because they're so predictable. we ought to just say that rather than acting like donald trump is doing something miraculous and not connecting the dots to how and why he's rising in the polls so swiftly. >> quickly, before you go, you run the most thoughtful talk show in los angeles. you have a lot of people from showbiz come through. once again today h today os car nomination once again. >> this is celebrated as the year of the black film or black filmmaker or actor or actress. you can't get caught up in that hype. yun year you have a few films made and the next year you disappe disappear. we have to get around folks who green light projects that look like america.
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>> tavis smileey, thank you very much for joining us tonight. chris matthews is up next live with republican debate reaction. doing the charleston, let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. trump and cruz. the fight is on, at the republican debate tonight in south carolina. the two front-runners clashed over cruz's eligibility to run for president. what are new york values. on cruz's birth, donald trump warned if cruz was the nominee, democrats would bring a lawsuit. cruz said trump was worried about the poll numbers, trump didn't deny that. here we go. >> why now?

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