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tv   The Place for Politics 2016  MSNBC  January 18, 2016 3:00pm-4:01pm PST

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audience that wants to be entertained and seems willfully defiant about, like facts. but cruz seems to be a candidate that appeals to a more selective audience of republican voters. if whatever -- >> sorry to cut you off. i'm cutting you off so i can get to my own show. thank you. coming up next, we have a special hour at msnbc looking at the democratic debate in south carolina. i'm going there with you for an hour and it starts right now. there are things we can do to improve it, but to tear it up and start over again, i think is the wrong direction. >> we're not going to tear off the affordable care act. i helped write it. >> i am the only candidate standing here tonight who has said i will not raise taxes on
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the middle class. >> i don't get personal speaking fees from goldman sachs. >> can i get 30 seconds, too. >> somebody like trump believes that climate change is a hoax invented by the chinese. >> hi, everyone, welcome to a special hour of msnbc, the place for politics on the msnbc news democratic debate held just last night in south carolina. this was the final debate before the voting begins in iowa and new hampshire as polls show the fight for the nomination getting tighter and tighter in the states. and there were sharp exchanges between hillary clinton and bernie sanders drew out sharp distinctions on gun control and health care. wall street reform and much more, continuity, versus change
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and passion. speaking of the obama legacy or transforming it. for the next hour we'll bring you substantial portions of the debate. we'll also get analysis from our political panel and we'll start with one of the hottest friction points over the issue of health care. the clinton campaign had been hitting sanders on a plan for paying for the health care, but just two hours before the debate sanders released his plan. here is how it played out on stage. >> is it really fair to say that bernie sanders wants to kill obamacare? >> well, andrea, i am absolutely committed to universal health care. i have worked on this for a long time. people may remember that i took on the health insurance industry back in the '90s. and i did not quit until we got the children's health insurance program that insures 8 million kids. and i certainly respect senator
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sanders' intentions, but when you talk about health care the details really matter. and therefore, we have been raising questions about the nine bills that he introduced over 20 years as to how they would work and what would be the impact on people's health care. he didn't like that. his campaign didn't like it either. and tonight he has come out with a new health care plan. and again, we need get into the details. but here is what i believe. the democratic party in the united states worked since harry truman to get the affordable care act passed. we finally have a path to universal health care. we accomplished so much already. i don't want to see the republicans repeal it and i don't want to see us start over again with a contentious debate. i want us to continue to build and reform the care act and improve it. >> secretary clinton didn't
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answer your question. because what her campaign was saying, bernie sanders, who has fought for universal health care for my entire life, he wants to end medicaid and medicare and the children's health insurance program. that is nonsense. what a medicare for all program does is finally provide in this country health care for every man, woman and child as a right. now, the truth is, that franklin roosevelt, harry truman, believed health care should be available to all our people. i'm on the committee that wrote the affordable care act, i made it a better piece of legislation. i voted for it. but right now what we have to deal with is the fact that 29 million people still have no health insurance. we are paying the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs, getting ripped off.
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and here is the important point. we are spending far more per person on health care than the people of any other country. my proposal, provide health care to all people, get private insurance out of health insurance, lower the cost of health care for middle class families by 5,000 poli$5,000, t vision we need to take. >> senator -- you know -- i have to say i'm not sure whether we're talking about the plan you just introduced tonight or we're talking about the plan you introduced nine times in the congress. but the fact is we have the affordable care act. that is one of the greatest accomplishments of president obama, of the democratic party and of our country. and we have already seen 19 million americans get insurance. we have seen the end of preexisting conditions keeping people from getting insurance. we have seen women no longer paying more for our insurance than men. and we've seen young people up
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to the age of 26 being able to stay on their parents' policy. now, there are things we can do to improve it but to tear it up and start over again pushing our country back into that kind of a contentious debate i think is the wrong direction. >> i have to talk about something -- >> no one -- >> governor -- >> we're going to go forward. but what the secretary neglected to mention, not just that 29 million still have no health insurance, that even more are under-insured with huge co-pays and deductibles. tell me why we're spending almost 30 times more than the british who guarantee health care to their people, 50% more than the french. the health care is a right in a cost-effective way. we're not going to tear up the affordable care act. i helped write it. but we are going to move on top of that to a medicare for all.
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>> andrea -- >> wait a minute. >> andrea -- i think instead of attacking one another on health care we should be talking about the things that are actually working. in our state we have moved to an all-payer system. with the affordable care act we now have moved all of our acute care hospitals that drive our costs at the center away from fee for service and actually to pay, we pay them based on how well they keep patients out of the hospital. how well they keep their patients. that is the future. we need to build on the affordable care act. do the things that work and reduce cost and increase access. >> and that is exactly what we are able to do based on the foundation of the affordable care act. what governor o'malley just said is one of the models that we will be looking at. to make sure we do get costs down. we do limit a lot of the unnecessary costs that we still have in the system. but with all due respect, to start over again with a whole
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new debate is something that i think would set us back. the republicans just voted last week to repeal the affordable care act and thank goodness president obama vetoed it and saved obamacare for the american people. >> senator sanders, let me ask you this. you talked about medicare for all and tonight you released a very detailed plan -- >> not all that detailed -- >> two hours before the debate, you did. but let me ask you about vermont. you tried in the state of vermont and vermont walked away from this kind of idea of medicare for all single payers because they concluded it would require major tax increases and by some estimates it would double the budget. if you look at vermont, senator -- >> the governor of the state of vermont, why he could not do it. i'm not the governor, i'm the senator from the state of vermont. but second of all, here is what the real point is. in terms of all of the issues
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you have raised, the good questions you have raised, you know what it all comes down to? do you know why we can't do what every other major country is doing? is because we have a campaign finance system that is corrupt. we have the super pacs and the pharmaceutical industry in this country pouring millions into campaign contributions and lobbying and the private insurance companies, as well. what this is really about is not the rational way to go forward, it's about whether we have the guts to stand up to the private insurance companies and all of their money and the pharmaceutical industry. that is what this debate should be about. >> well, as someone who -- as someone who has a little bit of experience standing up to the health insurance industry -- you know, many -- many, many millions of dollars attacking me, and probably will so again because of what i believe we can do, building on the affordable care act, i think it's important
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to point out that there are a lot of reasons we have the health care system we have today. i know how much money influences the political decision-making. that is why i'm for huge campaign finance reform. however, we started a system that had private health insurance and even during the affordable care act debate there was an opportunity to vote for what was called the public option. in other words, people could buy in to medicare. and even when the democrats were in charge of the congress we could not get the votes for that. so what i'm saying is really simple. this has been the fight of the democratic party for decades. we have the affordable care act, let's make it work. let's take the models that states are doing. we now have driven costs down to the lowest they have been in 50 years. now we've got to get individual costs down. that is what i'm planning to do. all right, hear from the candidates there.
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we'll cover a lot of ground on this issue. our political panel is here to break down how the health care debate played out last night. that is coming up. also hillary clinton hammered bernie sanders on his gun legislation record. will it hurt him with democratic voters? and sanders strikes back going after hillary clinton's past relationships with firms. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics.
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affordable care act. now, there are things we can do to improve it but to tear it up and start over again pushing our country back into that kind of a contentious debate, i think is the wrong direction. >> it is absolutely -- >> governor -- >> no one has torn this up. we're going to go forward. >> last night's democratic debate brought out a host of differences between hillary clinton and bernie sanders. some of the biggest revolved
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around health care. let's bring in the panel for our hour, joy reid, and evan mcmorris, reporter for buzz feed who has been following the bernie sanders campaign. so here is how it is going to work. we'll play the big chunks of the debate, and a big section on health care, we had the most direct confrontation between hillary clinton and bernie sanders. i was watsin watching it, it se sanders was almost taking the philosophical angle. he likes medicare, i imagine a lot of democratic bases probably there with him philosophically. forget that argument, you saw what the push was to get the affordable care act through. why would you ever want to have a fight-dominated presidency over the health care system?
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joy, who do you think got the better argument there? >> i think for most practical purposes, probably hillary clinton. there was a faction that wanted the private payer. remember dennis kucinich, others wanted to link it to a popular program. democrats lost that fight because in part, fellow democrats would not go along with it. joe lieberman and others blocked that type of universal health care. so i think bernie sanders, embedded in his argument are inherent critiques of the affordable care act, for people who don't like uca, i think a lot of democrats want to hang on to what they have. so for hillary clinton, the practical argument will go over better with the democrats who vote, the over 30 crowd who votes. >> and that is sort of the
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tightrope act that sanders has to follow here, he is arguing and hillary clinton was really trying to make it sound like you are not just arguing for single payer. you're arguing against barack obama and the legacy of the obama administration, by pursuing the payer system and pursuing your goal you are saying you want to abandon the affordable care act, abandon everything that president obama fought for. did bernie sanders make clear enough to democrats out there who like president obama, who wanted to defend his legacy, that he is not a threat to president obama's legacy? >> i think whoever you talk to, what is fascinating with this debate, what you saw with the democrats talking about how great the affordable care act is, that doesn't happen very often. and bernie sanders, a huge critic says now he wants to build on it. hillary clinton has been critical of it before, too. i think sanders' people, his supporters have watched hillary clinton's attacks over sanders over health care and felt really
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good about the attacks. they felt like as long as they said universal health care is not a good idea and this sort of vision of the pie in the sky, they feel good about it. but the clinton people feel good about the fact they got sanders to put a plan out, that plan as joy was saying puts you in a box where they -- democratic voters are going to be stuck voting for the person -- where a practical solution -- >> that is interesting until you mention the plan sanders put out. some of the views are coming from the liberals who are listening a little bit. you had paul krugman of "the new york times," all of them, nick, saying basically that -- basically coming down on hillary clinton's side of this argument, knocking bernie sanders, in some cases, lack of being specific, being pie in the sky, they're giving hillary clinton cover on this.
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>> listen, his plan was pushed out essentially in response to the attacks as a last-minute thing before the debates. it was clearly rushed and frankly sanders has that problem in general. he does not have professional white paper platform all the policies spelled out in detail. >> it's the stuff he has been saying for 35 years. >> exactly, it's both his strengths and weaknesses. but for hillary clinton, it's hard to say, about the candidate of caution. however right she is, it would be hard to take apart obamacare, there is always going to be a consistency for the guy out there saying no, we can do more and better and achieve our greatest hopes. and those are the people who will vote for bernie sanders. >> they will ask for the aspirational aspect, it is compelling for other voters. he says we can sort of have the ultimate end game of what democrats really want, which is truly universal health care. when he puts the plan out he will walk into a trap that will
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hurt him in terms of being the candidate. when you say to time magazine there will be a tax increase for everybody who makes $50,000 or more, everything you say after that people don't hear. they hear there will be a tax increase. there was an interesting back and forth on my twitter feed about the passionate discussion, and one young freelancer said, i read the tax plan, i can't afford $16 a week even, he was lecturing the voter, saying you don't understand how it will win you money. you can't win that argument with voters. >> that is the type of practical argument, bernie sanders at a ton of his rallies they're not interested at all in this type of conversation. this idea you give the government more money and save money in the long run, sanders
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talked about that all the time. i'm not sure a debate that is centered around look, aca is the best we can do. that is so good for hillary clinton going into the iowa caucuses where you have fired up the voters. i think it's a strong persuasion for him to be talking about the -- being more idealistic. >> working in south carolina -- >> interesting, that is the problem that the democrats, they have been trying to get universal health care for generations, like hillary clinton in the '90s, saying here is my 400-page plan, people didn't necessarily have interest in that. still to come, who is tougher on gun control. plus, from health care to wall street to foreign policy, hillary clinton champions the obama legacy. but first, hillary clinton weighing in last night on the nuclear deal with iran. >> i'm very proud of the iran nuclear agreement. i was very pleased to be a part of what the president put into
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commander-in-chief you have to be constantly evaluating the decisions you have to make. i know a little bit about this, having spent many hours in the situation room advising president obama. the fact is we have the affordable care act. that is one of the greatest accomplishments of president obama, of the democratic party and of our country. he has criticized president obama for taking donations from wall street. and president obama has led our country out of the great rece recession, your comments about your feelings toward president obama are a little strange given what you said about him in 2011. >> i think she was trying to say something there. that was hillary clinton last night at the debate making sure we all know that she is very proud of the work done by president obama. i am back with our panel, joy reid, so nick, 2008, hillary
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clinton and barack obama didn't seem to get along too much. she was likeable enough. it was a very tense, long campaign. now she is delivering the message to democratic voters there is no one closer to barack obama than me. >> can you imagine if bill clinton hopped into a time machine to fastforward right now and tell her okay, this is the strategy. and to see her wrap herself as agenda and credentials, which she has earned by being secretary of state is kind of amazing, but it casts two doubts on bernie sanders. one, is he attacking the democratic president, and the first black president? but it is strange to watch for some of us. >> president obama really -- did hillary clinton a favor when he
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made her secretary of state eight years ago. because if she had stayed in the senate, she could have voted for the agenda. but right now it is so imperative for her to attach herself to the president. she has that credential, it's priceless. >> he also did that with his strategy and got with the congress and went far to the left in his second term. what is happening now is bernie sanders in 2011 and the lead-up to the 2012 election like a lot of other progressives were not happy with obama. that era of working republicans and sanders talking about a primary opponent against obama. he criticized him all the time. and he still criticizes his efforts to reach out to the republican party. so clinton, if he was stuck with that obama it may be harder. what he can now embrace is do things that liberals like again and doing all of those things and also have the foreign policy victories that democrats seem to like that she has a hand in. so it's interesting the obama we're dealing with, where
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sanders is stuck now, trying to reach back to the old time, the era where we were not happy with president obama. but he is sort of having to recast his past criticisms and say look, when i looked at it that way i never actually did it. that is actually kind of a big shift from what he said back at that time. >> how much room is there, joy, for bernie sanders, for anybody in the democratic party to take a voter who really likes president obama, thinks he has done a good job and wants to defend the legacy. but to make the argument we could have done more, didn't quite go far enough, i would do more? >> there is a little bit of room. most black and white democrats do agree they would have liked to have seen more, as much progress as they believe happened they would have liked to have seen more. the change argument cuts both ways for democrats. particularly the white democrats who really did want much more and who started criticizing president obama not in 2011 but
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for 2009. and who already felt that he was not going far enough on anything, whether it was on gay rights or the affordable care act, whether it was on everything. but those democrats right now are fighting a change argument against barack obama. the argument for change in 2008 was against bushism. george w. bush, and hillary clinton has a stronger argument for democrats, and that means black democrats. we were just in south carolina and that is where the battle will be won or lost. some were in shock that a guy that they actually liked that hillary clinton saw herself a sponsor of when he got into the senate had sort of turned on them and run against her and they were in freak-out mode and this things they said at the time were lashing out at what she said was her place in history. now she is defending obama's place in history. she is hugging him, i am sure his ribs are sore from her
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hugging him. if sanders people were smart they would push back on that of trying to remind south carolina democrats of what she said before. >> i was thinking last night the minute bernie sanders says that all she has to say is you know what, after that campaign who did he turn around and entrust with the job of secretary of state? one of the most high-powered jobs, he chose me. >> they talked about jeff weaver, bernie sanders's campaign manager, first thing he said was look at the youtube videos of 2008 before you start to talk about obama. >> and if you see that, the next thing that the hillary clinton campaign can say who was traveling with you, bernie sanders, cornell west, who right up until this day is still making highly personal comments disparaging of the president of the united states. how that helps bernie sanders with black voters i still have not been able to figure out. all right, coming up, the
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first issue to really get contentious last night. gun control, hillary clinton and bernie sanders going after each other on that issue. while martin o'malley insist both have been consistent, imagine that. and later, a core issue for bernie sanders, wall street reform. how he hammered that issue against hillary clinton last night. much more right after this. does it bother you, concern you that you were only visible to people watching the 70 millimeter version of the debate? >> if that was true, it would bother me. i enjoy your show. >> thank you, i want to work with you. >> i like to work with all people. >> i can deliver for you, martin. e... ...reinvented. sophistication... ...redefined. introducing the all-new lexus rx and rx hybrid. agile handling. available 12.3-inch navigation screen and panorama glass roof. never has luxury been this expressive.
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all right, continuing now with our special hour on last night, democratic debate down in charleston, south carolina, the home of mother emanual church where nine people were killed in a mass shooting last june. and the debate's first topic was gun control. hillary clinton has repeatedly
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challenged sanders on that issue. and last night sanders said she was being disingenuous. >> last night, called you a pretty reliable vote for the gun lobby, last night you changed your vote on the gun manufacturers, can you tell us why? >> i think what hillary clinton knows she says is very disingenuous. i have a d-minus voting record from the nra, i was in 1988, there were three candidates running for office, i stood up to the gun law and came out and maintained the position that in this country we should not be selling military-style assault weapons. i have supported from day one an instant background check to make certain that people who should not have guns do not have guns. and that includes people with criminal backgrounds, people who are mentally unstable.
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i support what president obama is doing in terms of trying to close the gun show loopholes, and i think it should be a federal crime if people act. we have seen in this city already horrendous tragedy, of a crazed person praying with people and coming out and shooting nine people. this should not be a political issue. what we should be doing is working together, and by the way as a senator from a rural state that has virtually no gun control, i believe that i am in an excellent position to bring people together to fight defensible gun issues. >> and in answer to the question that you did change your position on immunity to gun manufacturers, can you answer the question -- >> what i have said is that the gun manufacturers liability bill had some good provisions, among other things we prohibited ammunition that would have killed cops who had protection
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on. we had child safety protection on guns in that legislation. and what we also said is a small mom and pop gun shop who sells a gun legally to somebody should not be held liable if somebody does something terrible with that gun. so what i said is i would look at it. we'll relook at it and i'll support stronger provisions. >> secretary clinton would you like to respond to senator sanders? >> yes, look, i have made it clear based on senator sanders' own record that he has voted with the nra, with the gun lobby numerous times, voting against the brady bill five times. he voted for what we call the charleston loophole. he voted for immunity from gun makers and sellers which the nra said was the most important piece of gun legislation in 20 years. he voted to let guns go on to amtrak, guns go into national parks. he voted against doing research
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to figure out how we can save lives. let's not forget what this is about. 90 people a day die from gun violence in our country. that is 33,000 people a year. one of the most horrific examples not a block from here where we had nine people murdered. now, i am pleased to hear that senator sanders has reversed his position on immunity. and i look forward to him joining with those members of congress who have already introduced legislation. there is no other industry in america that was given the total path that the gunmakers and dealers were. and that needs to be reversed. >> all right, governor o'malley, you signed tough gun control measures as governor of maryland. and there are a lot of democrats in the audience here in south carolina who own guns. this conversation may worry many
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of them. they may hear you want to take my guns. what would you say to them? >> this is what i would say, i've listened to secretary clinton and senator sanders go back and forth on who has the better record on gun legislation. i have to agree with both of them. they have both been inconsistent when it comes to this issue. i'm the one candidate on this stage that actually brought people together to pass gun legislation, one little boy was getting a hair cut, his head was pierced with a bullet after there was a shooting. i remember visiting him and his mother in john hopkins hospital and his diapers, with tubes running in and out of his head, same age as my little boy. after the slaughter in
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connecticut, we brought people together and passed the comprehensive legislation. universal background checks. and you know what? we did not interrupt a single person's hunting season. i never met a self-respecting deer hunter that needed an ar-15 to down a deer. >> all right, that was the debate over gun control. next, our panel will react to it plus a look at how both sanders and clinton used to feel about guns. hey pal? you ready? can you pick me up at 6:30? ah... (boy) i'm here! i'm here! (cop) too late. i was gone for five minutes! ugh! move it. you're killing me. you know what, dad? i'm good. (dad) it may be quite a while before he's ready, but our subaru legacy will be waiting for him. (vo) the longest-lasting midsize sedan in its class. the twenty-sixteen subaru legacy. it's not just a sedan. it's a subaru. across america, people like badominique
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>> yes, look, i have made it clear based on senator sanders own record that he has voted with the nra, with the gun lobby numerous times. >> well, i think hillary clinton knows that what she says is disingenuous. i have a d-minus voting record from the nra. >> all right, that is bernie sanders and hillary clinton head to head on the gun control issue, one of the many issues they tackled. our panel all here, would you believe that disingenuous is probably the word that could describe both of them when it comes to guns? everybody in the democratic party seems to be for gun control. bernie sanders did not talk about this, i think we can put it up on the screen, he was a member of congress then in 1993. the brady will, the question of the handgun came up. there is his vote, he voted no. but it's not just bernie sanders.
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eight years ago hillary clinton was running for president and actively trying to court pro-gun democrats against barack obama. she portrays herself as a democratic church-going gun-toting democrat. >> we have a different set of rules, what may work in new york city is certainly not going to work in montana. so for the federal government to be having any kind of you know blanket rules that they're going to try to impose, i think doesn't make sense. >> that is not the hillary clinton we were hearing last night, nick. is somebody getting the better deal? >> i think hillary clinton probably a little bit. but here is the truth. i'm not sure this hurts bernie sanders as much as she hopes it does. i feel like for these type of attack issues to really hurt the candidate it has to play in the bigger picture that voters have from the candidate.
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so for instance, evan bey, and a left wing socialist, he is pro-gun. i'm not sure it really changes how they think about him. i do think if you were wondering if sanders the politician, that answer in that debate, boy, that was a political one, dodging the question completely. >> i had the exact same reaction, when he talks, bernie sanders' answer on that he doesn't say i voted against the brady bill. he did. he said i always voted for instant background checks. the history on that, the history on the background check would be nra-alternative to the brady bill. you remember in congress you can vote for it and say you did something but they were trying to kill the brady bill, because there was a lot of doubt they could put in instant background checks. but bernie sanders, very much like a politician played up that talking point. >> all you have to know about
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the sanders campaign, and the gun record is what they have been doing in the past three days about his gun record. this is a guy who voted for the bill, the special liability protection for gun manufacturers. he changed his mind on that recently. he said throughout the campaign he would you know look at that vote again. >> evolve. >> but i mean clearly the campaign is a bit worried about it. but also the clinton campaign does talk quite a bit about it. i think nick has interesting points on that. the clinton campaign talks about it and also do have this record -- that video you played gets played all the time. that is her talking about her old mailers, attacking obama on -- for gun control stuff. this is a relatively new issue, and another issue where we talk about obama and his influence in this election. obama has dragged the democratic party back into gun control places they did not want to be back in 2007. he left clinton and sanders both holding the bag on that.
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the question is however sanders voters will go with him moving in this direction. the more he goes towards that, they seem to be okay with that. >> joy, how much does it matter? for hillary clinton here is her chance to get to the left of bernie sanders. he is running the insurgent campaign, she is saying haha, i'm actually with the base on that, you're with the republicans. how much does it matter? >> it matters in the margin in two ways, one of them the undecided voters, with all due respect to martin o'malley, an issue on whether or not bernie sanders is just another politician could matter. he touts his 1988 stance on guns but in 1990, the nra endorsed him. there was interesting piece floating around -- >> seems like he learned a political lesson from losing. >> exactly, so if you can paint him as just another paul, it would be tempting to some saying maybe he is not so different.
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democratic women, i think gun reform is a very important issue to them. probably more than any other group. and i think any issue that makes her more authentic on the issue of guns is more helpful to her. >> if you told anybody in vermont in 1988 that that congressional campaign they were following in that state would be a matter of national debate, 28 years later, most of them would not have believed you. coming up, taking on wall street, sparks fly between the two leading democrats. sanders in his signature issue calls out clinton for having large and lucrative connections to the big banks. that exchange is next. and ahead if you wondered how bill clinton factored into that debate here is a little bit of one of those exchanges. >> senator sanders, let me ask you a question, you called bill clinton's past transgressions totally, totally disgraceful and unacceptable.
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senator, do you regret saying that? >> i was asked a question, one of the things, andrea, that question annoys me. i cannot walk down the street, secretary clinton knows this. without being told how i have to attack secretary clinton. want to get me on the front page, attack, i have avoided doing that trying to run the campaign. d once you find it, you can switch it right on again. ♪ you're back! freeze it, only from discover. get it at have my stomach feeling all knotted up. i've tried laxatives... but my symptoms keep returning. my constipation feels like a pile of bricks... that keeps coming back. linzess can help. once-daily linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. linzess is thought to help calm pain-sensing nerves and accelerate bowel movements.
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the leader of goldman sachs is a billionaire who comes to congress and tells us we should cut social security, medicare and medicaid. and secretary clinton, you're not the only one, i don't mean to point the finger at you. you received over $600,000 in speaking fees from goldman sachs in one year. >> senator sanders you're the only one on this stage that voted to deregulate the financial market in 2000, to take the cops off the street to use governor o'malley's phrase,
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to make the sec and the commodities futures trading commission no longer able to regulate swaps and derivatives which were one of the main cause of the collapse in 2008. >> bernie sanders did not like that. back again is our panel, joy reid, evan mcmorris, the back and forth issue on wall street, that topic is central to bernie sanders' campaign, you tweeted something, i was told this was highly retweeted. you said a good question would be secretary clinton, why do you think banks and hedge funds pay you 200 grand to give a campaign speech? >> i would love to hear the answer, i'm curious to see what she thinks they're doing it for. look, let's talk about the style and substance, her record on wall street is mixed. she voted for strong reforms, voted for dodd-frank, she voted
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for lots of things. on style, she is extraordinarily close with big people on wall street, raising a ton of money, given a ton of money for speaking. her daughter was an intern at a hedge fund. it goes on and on. despite what she said in the debate attacking bernie sanders for attacking barack obama, for taking money from wall street banks, a lot of people view her as the corrective to barack obama, they hate him. there is a real style here, i think she is very vulnerable for the average voter. >> the first president clinton in the '90s, that sort of alliance between the democratic party, that sort of sprung up. on that issue does she have credibility with democrats? >> this is other biggest vulnerable and obviously the sweet spot for bernie sanders. even average democrats use the word glass-steagall as a
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rallying cry, they know what it is and that her husband killed it. it makes a really good point. she was close to wall street, she is a new york senator and close to the candidate. nobody believes it when she says she will be as tough of a cop as dodd-frank was, in any debate on hillary clinton with this particular issue bernie sanders will win that particular argument. >> that is the exchange of why we thought bernie sanders may win iowa and new hampshire. every time this comes up, she has to talk about the wall street ties. he has not had a super pac. it is like this idea of these complex sort of taxes that sanders wants to put on the banks and the way the trading system works. the voters that come out to sanders rallies really know a lot about the financial system and really don't like it and they're very upset by it. hillary clinton does not have a good way to get to those people
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because of had her ties to thos people. and sanders has a really good way of sounding because he has a long record of trying to make the changes. this is his entire candidacy in this change, and in this particular debate he did very well. she prevented herself from a gaffe, but -- >> if he can't win that part of the debate, he can't win. we have about a minute left, who won the debate, joy so? >> i think it debates who you ask. i did my own twitter poll, i think the pundits would say she won because she had more core substantive points. she looked very presidential. neither did themselves harm, so a tie can go to them. on passion, his people are always going to win in that sort of back and forth. >> i mean, nick, last night if
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you look at the polls he is ahead in new hampshire, some say single digits, some say double. it's about a tie, he may be slightly behind in iowa, did anything you saw last night shake that up? >> no, look, if bernie sanders is indeed catching up i didn't see anything that would change it. i thought it was not a great debate for either one of them, or martin o'malley. it was his best debate, he had a few good moments. >> giving the win to o'malley? >> the performance by grade, it didn't really change anything. there were not these big exchanges that you would walk away with and be huh, i changed my mind about the person. >> the first winner is whoever operated the split screen camera of that debate, they're amazing, i have to go the other way with joy, the tie goes to sanders. the clinton campaign put it up to 11. pedal to the metal, they're
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going to stop this guy. they were not able to do it last night. i didn't see him walk out of there bruised up or beaten in any way, and that basically means a good night for him. >> all right, thank you all for joining us the last hour, thank you for joining us on this special last hour of steve kornacki. and "hardball" starts now. >> two weeks out, we're in the red zone. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington with just two weeks to go to iowa. donald trump and ted cruz have gone to total war. today, cruz is calling trump rattled. he already called him unstable. trump accuses cruz of being illegal as a presidential candidate. a fraud for mocking new york while grabbing a


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