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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  January 25, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm PST

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i would like to suggest they tie a leash to it. handcuff it to the snowboard wrangler for the duration of the >> stop saying snowboard. it's confusing me. it's making me think of going down a hill. >> snow hyphen board. different thing. >> yeah. i bravely rode out the storm in l.a. this weekend watching it on tv from time to time. but you know, here i am. >> i was in new england, where there was not a flake. but in the spirit of sort of solidarity with the mid-atlantic i did go ice fishing on sunday. so i was at least cold. >> yeah, cold. that's more than i can say. thanks, rachel. >> thanks, lawrence. well, tonight we have some big endorsements in the democratic race for the presidential nomination and the republican field has a surprise surge in new hampshire by a candidate not named trump or cruz. >> seven days left until the iowa caucuses.
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>> he is now insulting me every day. >> ted cannot get along with anybody. he's a nasty person. >> i'm happy to have a conversation about how donald's and my records differ. >> he was born in canada. >> meaningful differences. substantive differences. >> i could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters. okay? >> you know that's not what a president does, right? you're not running for president of hunger games. >> you know i was joking. of course i was joking. >> he brought out sarah palin. in iowa. you saw that. >> i wanted to take a break from my full-time career of writing things on facebook. >> i hope nobody's allergic to nuts because we got a big one here. she's two corinthians short of a bible. >> two corinthians, right? two corinthians. >> two corinthians walk into a bar. ah, yes. ricardo montalban. genuine corinthian leather. >> of course. why not the best? >> turns out that trump's secret weapon all along has been ted cruz. >> after his disastrously bad
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performance as a presidential candidate four years ago no one had a right to be surprised when rick perry was the first to drop out of the republican presidential race last year. when he was polling below 1% in iowa. and today no one noticed when rick perry endorsed his state's junior senator for president. >> i'm really enthusiastic about this man, ted cruz. >> he said that on "morning joe." and donald trump, who is a "morning joe" fan, didn't even bother to do a hate tweet against rick perry for that. the perry endorsement probably means exactly one vote for ted cruz if ted cruz makes it as far as the texas primary on march 1st. donald trump was busy on twitter today attacking ted cruz. ted cruz is a nervous wreck. he is making reckless charges, not caring for the truth. his poll numbers are way down. "cruz going down fast in recent polls. dropping like a rock.
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lies never work." that was my favorite. of course, donald trump's stream of consciousness pathological lying has actually worked quite well for him, pushing him to the top of the republican polls. but it also means that most people in the media seem to my everything donald trump says is a complete lie and completely ignorable but trump has gotten some support from constitutional scholars for raising doubts about whether ted cruz fits the definition of natural-born citizen as it appears once in the constitution as a qualification for president. >> he's got a problem with his canadian birth. he was born in canada. it's a real question. and as you know, lawrence tribe from harvard and many other lawyers are saying he can't do what he's doing, he's not allowed to run. and you have some lawyers that say definitively he cannot run >> is that why his numbers have gone down in iowa? >> i don't know. i think it has an impact because i think it said 36% of the people agree he cannot run for
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president, he was born in canada and he was born on canadian soil. now, he can run for prime minister of canada. but i don't think he can -- i honestly don't know if he can run. and there's a question mark. >> now, whenever trump speaks he lies. but it doesn't mean everything he says is a lie. trump tells a couple of lies there. harvard law school professor lawrence tribe said that the definition of natural-born citizen is not settled law. he said that here on this program. and that it is therefore a valid question about ted cruz's qualifications to be president. but president tribe has not said definitively that ted cruz does not meet that definition. and trump also lied about 36% of people agreeing that ted cruz can't run for president. a monmouth poll showed that 65% of republicans say they believe ted cruz is a natural-born citizen. only 12% say that he isn't. and 24% support what has now become most legal scholars' position by saying that they
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just don't know. tonight at a rally in new hampshire donald trump said this. >> my new battle is with a gentleman named ted cruz. because you've got to speak the truth. you've got to speak the truth. the canadian. the man from canada. thank you. that was very helpful. i don't know. that's so succinct. that was very good, actually. he screams out "the canadian." yeah, that's right. the canadian. he could run right now for prime minister of canada. he'd have no problem. but he does have a problem. i mean, does anyone agree with me on this? because it seems -- [ applause ] right? how do you -- okay. so you have a constitution. you have very strong -- you know, all your life you hear you have to be born in this country, born in this country. he's born in canada on canadian soil. and i mean, come on. >> it appears there's enough doubt in the republican electorate about ted cruz's eligibility to affect the polls. in a new fox news iowa poll
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trump is now at 34% up from 26% in december. cruz is now at 23% down from 28% in december. here is how cruz supporter iowa congressman steve king is handling the eligibility question on the campaign trail in iowa. >> i think there's zero legal question about this. and congress addressed this in 1790. and the people that did so were the ones that wrote the language into the constitution itself. and so they knew what natural-born citizen was. they defined it then. and ted's birth is very consistent with what was put in place then. so i think it's disingenuous of people to make that an issue. >> joining us now, mary bridget mcmanamon. he's a constitutional law professor at widener university's delaware law school. professor mcmanamon you've written about this for the washington post. what's your reaction to what steve king there said in defense of ted cruz's eligibility? >> he makes a fundamental mistake that a lot of people
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talking about this mistake. and that is there's this notion of separation of powers. and the power to naturalize, which is to change someone who's an alien into an american citizen-s given to congress. natural-born citizenship is constitutionalized in the second amendment. so whatever the congress did in 1790 doesn't affect article 2. >> so your position on -- your reading of the constitution leads you to what conclusion about ted cruz's eligibility? >> ted cruz is not eligible. i would go further than lawrence tribe and say that the meaning was clear and knowable and the framers of the constitution intended it to be static. just as the 35-year-old requirement and the 14-year residency requirement was meant to be static. >> and when you say static, the people who say ted cruz is eligible all point to things that congress did after the constitution was written. and you're saying because the constitution has to be held static on this point nothing the
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congress wrote after that would affect those words in the constitution. >> that's correct. unlike, say, a concept like due process which has evolved over time, the requirements for the presidency have not. >> professor mary brigid mcmanamon, thank you for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> joining us from des moines, iowa robert costa, national political reporter for the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst. also here with us kurt anderson host of "studio 360." robert costa, the movement in the polls, it's hard to say whether that's attributable to what donald trump is saying about citizenship. there's a lot of other things in the wind out there in iowa, aren't there? >> it's a full barrage, lawrence, against senator cruz. it's not just trump. it's the republican establishment. the sitting governor is calling on cruz to be defeated. you have senator rubio going after cruz. you have trump being relentless in his chatter about the
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canadian birth. this is -- i think when you look at cruz's campaign, a few weeks ago he was the favorite. but he may have peaked too early. he's trying to come back now, and he's playing down expectations. >> kurt, the cruz versus trump thing is going to be the first big battle here. if cruz does not win iowa, might this be the end of cruz? >> well, since as robert just said cruz has been the favorite all along and it is the perfect republican state for him, this highly evangelical state, i don't know if it's the end. it's not quite so much the -- it's not the definitive end, but it's really trouble for him because i have a hard time in any event seeing ted cruz doing well in new hampshire, probably not even coming in -- certainly not second, maybe not even third. if he loses iowa as well, it's a different ball game for him. >> trump tweeted today, "it's
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time for ted cruz to either settle his problem with the fact that he was born in canada and was a citizen of canada or get out of the race." robert costa, is there anything that the cruz campaign intends to do or say differently about this citizenship issue between now and monday? >> between now and monday, not really. i've been connecting with the cruz campaign today. and you get the sense they're in a ground game mode. they're trying to get evangelicals out to vote. they're not trying to get into a constitutional argument. and they believe cruz's status, his reputation as an attorney gives him the credibility to move forward without having to counter trump day after day. >> let's look at this new ted cruz ad in iowa. >> i lived in new york city, in manhattan all my life. okay? so my views are a little bit different than if i lived in iowa. >> they are different. like on abortion. >> would president trump ban partial birth abortion? >> look, i am pro choice in
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every respect. >> and what does trump think about iowa? >> how stupid are the people of iowa? >> donald trump. new york values, not ours. >> you know, my views are a little bit different than if i lived in iowa. >> i'm ted cruz, and i approve this message. >> kurt anderson, in old-fashioned campaigning, by which i'm meaning two years ago. >> yes. >> as we understood the universe. that would be very effective. but there's no new information in there for iowa voters. they know that trump has changed his mind about this stuff. >> absolutely. and that's absolutely discounted in and baked into the cake. whereas i don't know if the citizenship thing, how that has or will affect the poll but it's new information. and it's not just a charge. it's the constitution, after all. and this originalist, this constitutional originalist ted cruz is having a problem with it. that if it were not he having this problem you know that ted cruz would be making the same case. >> yeah. >> so i think as yet another
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thing that can be thrown at him along with the poll momentum, that might stick, it's not helping him. >> let's listen to glenn beck going against trump in iowa. >> glenn beck. i mean, every time i see him he's crying. he's a wack job. no, he's crying. he is. [ applause ] no. no. glenn beck. and every time he see this guy he's like talking, crying. he's a -- what a mess. man. you know who he's endorsing today? cruz. can you believe it? i've got sarah palin. i'll take sarah palin every single day. >> okay. that was the exact opposite of glenn beck going against trump. but robert costa, who's winning this one? sarah palin versus glenn beck. >> the beck-palin divide is really indicative of the cruz-trump race. cruz at the beginning, months ago, had the movement right with him. he was getting the true blue conservatives to sign on and say we're with him.
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but now trump is muddying the waters with the palin endorsement. he's been going hard after pastors nationally and in iowa. he's been introduced by different key figures at events over the weekend. senator grassley came to a trump event on saturday. he had another pastor from a dallas megachurch introduce trump at one of those events. so it's not clear to many iowans who are watching who exactly is the evangelical favorite. cruz is the front-runner for that block but not the wholesale champion. >> all right. we're going to have to leave it there for tonight. robert costa, thank you very much for joining us from iowa tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> coming up, which sounds more scary, president cruz or president trump? robert reich gives his answer. and a new round of endorsements in the democratic race for the presidential nomination. introducing metris, the mid-size van from mercedes-benz. it's got small-ability and big-ability. towing-ability and stowing-ability.
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the all-new audi q7 is here. ♪ the latest new hampshire poll of republican voters shows john kasich now tied for second place within the margin of error with ted cruz. in the "boston herald" poll trump is at 33%, up from 26 in december. cruz is at 14%. and john kasich is at 12%. that's up four points. and tomorrow the biggest newspaper in new england will print its endorsement of john kasich for the republican nomination. in endorsing john kasich "the boston globe" editorial board writes, "by voting for kasich new hampshire can reward a candidate whose politics have been largely positive and rebuke those candidates who have spent their campaign appealing to voters' fears and biases of those. donald trump has been easily the worst. once known primarily for his
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reality tv show trump has exploited anti-immigrant and anti-muslim sentiment to build a populist campaign that polls show attracts a hardcore segment of republican voters. his bigotry is toxic, and it requires a resounding electoral defeat." joining us now, alan wirzbicki, he's an editorial writer for the "boston globe," which endorsed john kasich for the republican nomination. alan, how did you come to that endorsement and was it difficult? how many rounds of voting in the editorial board to arrive at this one? >> well, thank you for having me on. we did spend a lot of time with this. we interviewed a number of the candidates. and we went through a long and healthy discussion, i would say. but in the end we really did feel like kasich was the best bet. for the reasons that we laid out in the editorial. but especially in this context with the way that donald trump is talking on the trail, we really felt it was important to
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put our weight behind someone like john kasich, who seems to be really trying to appeal to voters' better instincts. so it was a long discussion, but i think we were all happy with where we came down. >> robert costa, charlie cook has been insisting that this is ultimately going to be a three-lane race, that it is not just trump and cruz, that the third lane would emerge and kasich could be the guy, someone else could be the guy. if john kasich -- let's just entertain the possibility here that this poll we've just seen from the "boston herald" raises the possibility john kasich comes in second in new hampshire. if john kasich rushes up there and comes in second in new hampshire, the next day is there tremendous pressure within republican world to solidify around kasich? >> especially if you have trump coming out of iowa with a big win and trump coming out of new
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hampshire with the same. i think you see establishment donors and party officials now warming to the idea of a trump nomination. but they're still hoping privately in conversations i've had with them to see someone like kasich emerge, and new hampshire's the place to do it. there's a lot of trust in kasich, too, lawrence. there's a sense he's a two-term ohio governor, knows how to speak to swing voters, has a blue-collar background. he's the kind of candidate the party elites wanted a year ago and think could still get there, they just have to unite around him if he comes out of new hampshire. >> kurt, the very first tv ads i saw on boston tv, which is targeted into new hampshire, months and months ago were kasich ads. and it was a serious buy. and when he did that tv buy, he went up in the polls. but then all sorts of other noise entered the campaign and he just couldn't keep going up. now we see him coming up again. it doesn't surprise me based on the way i've seen that campaign develop in new hampshire. but if he gets ahead of cruz, if he gets that second place in new
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hampshire, that's the biggest possible event. >> absolutely. and then there's, as your question to robert posited, he then becomes the heir apparent for the establishment lane. however, look at the combined polling totals of all four of those establishment candidates. around 25% total, which is to say less than just donald trump has alone. so being the establishment guy gives you a certain better than not being the establishment down to one guy, but it's not dispositive because the establishment lane of the republican party is still one narrow lane. >> but alan, if kasich were to come in second and were to get this kind of attention, the other thing that is always possible with a front-runner like trump is that he can do something crazy, something weird, something we've never seen before that actually does hurt him. i mean, everyone's assuming that
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he can't be hurt by anything. but you never know. there's no way of knowing what's going to happen in the trump campaign down the line. >> true. and i think what we've heard is that kasich runs good campaigns. he's won two gubernatorial campaigns in a large swing state with a very diverse -- that's very diverse. and so he knows what he's doing. so if it does come down to a race between him and either donald trump or ted cruz, our thought was that he would stand a pretty good chance. >> and robert costa, kasich, i've heard different noises at different times about kasich being on everybody's possible list for the vp nomination since he's the ohio favorite son. that is also helped by this. >> it is. i mean, if kasich comes out of new hampshire strong, he's going to have a lot of challenges ahead. he'd have to deal with trump as the front-runner perhaps. all that comes with it. he'd have to build an
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organization nationally and the establishment -- if a bush and christie does pretty well behind kasich second place new hampshire should that happen, there's no reason for some of them to get out. they may try to endure the race. that would complicate kasich's path. and kasich would be a top-tier vp candidate regardless, though, it all comes down to that new hampshire showing. >> and kurt, you never know. when you start pulling people out. not the jindals and the rick perrys. but when you start pulling out christies, people like that, there's a much bigger rethinking of candidacies among the electorate than just what do the people who yesterday said they were for christie doing. >> absolutely. what we don't know yet and won't know for a couple of weeks but we'll start knowing then is do any of the establishment karat voters go for cruz or trump. personally i can imagine more going for donald trump than ted cruz. >> we'll leave it there. quick break.
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alan wirzbicki and robert costa thank you for joining you. big endorsements in the democratic race and a possible third-party run by a real billionaire. you can't predict... the market. but at t. rowe price, we can help guide your investments through good times and bad. for over 75 years, our clients have relied on us to bring our best thinking to their investments so in a variety of market conditions... you can feel confident... ...in our experience. call a t. rowe price retirement specialist or your advisor ...to see how we can help make the most of your retirement savings. t. rowe price. invest with confidence.
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(train wheels on tracks) it had no mouth, but it spoke to me. it said, "rocky mountaineer: all aboard amazing". over the weekend hillary clinton picked up three important newspaper endorsements. the biggest newspaper in iowa, the "des moines register" endorsed secretary clinton. the biggest newspaper in new england, "the boston globe," which has significant readership in new hampshire, endorsed
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secretary clinton. and in new hampshire the "concord monitor" endorsed hillary clinton over bernie sanders. the "des moines register" editorial endorsing hillary clinton said "the presidency is not an entry-level position. no other candidate can match the depth or breadth of her knowledge and experience." bernie sanders' counter to the "des moines register" endorsement is a television ad that will begin airing in iowa tomorrow. >> there are those who say we cannot defeat a corrupt political system and fix a rigged economy. but i believe we need to lift our vision above the obstacles in place and look to the american horizon, to a nation where every child cannot only dream of going to college but attend one, where quality health care will be a birthright of every citizen, where a good job is not a wish but a reality, where women receive equal pay and a living wage is paid to all. an america where after a lifetime of labor there is time
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for rest and grandchildren. a nation that defends our people and our values but no longer carries so much of that burden alone. i know if we listen to our hearts, and that journey begins here in iowa. i'm bernie sanders. i approve this message, and i ask you to join with us at the caucuses on monday night. thank you. >> joining us now, lynn hicks, an opinion editor and member of the "des moines register" editorial board. also joining us ben wikler, the washington director of moveon.org, which has endorsed bernie sanders. lynn hicks, how did you come to this decision on this endorsement? >> well, we spent a lot of time researching it, debating it. we met with secretary clinton over two meetings, more than three hours with her. we also met with senator sanders. and governor o'malley twice.
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we spent a lot of time, but we ultimately couldn't escape the conclusion that we did that she was clearly the most qualified candidate running in this race. >> ben wikler, what's your reaction to the editorial? >> well, it's a reasoned and thoughtful endorsement. i think for grassroots progressives for moveon.org members we just have a different take. the theory that we go into this with is that it's not enough to elect a president, you also need a movement of millions of people that are engaged after election day to fight for fundamental change. and that's what the sanders campaign is building, that's the premise of the campaign, that millions of people need to get involved to bring back control of our democracy to the people. >> and lynn hicks, how much did electability play a part in your endorsement? >> it was part of it certainly. but i think it went beyond that, if you read the editorial. and you know, we have a lot of good things to say about bernie and are very impressed with the way he ran his campaign.
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but it has to do more with how effective we think he could be. and he can only be effective if he has this revolution that he talks about, and we can't see that happening. and so that was one of the reasons that we ultimately went with clinton. >> lynn, what do you expect hillary clinton to be able to do with paul ryan in control of all legislation in the congress? >> well, you know, let's give her a chance. and i think that she has -- she argues that she has worked with republicans across the aisle. and i know that she is a divisive figure. but it's not going to be easy. we weren't making that argument. but let's give her -- let's see what she can do. >> ben, i don't think it's a matter of democrats being divisive figures or not when it comes to paul ryan's republican congress. paul ryan's republican congress is simply opposed to virtually
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everything bernie sanders says and everything hillary clinton says about domestic policy, and no one has shown the way around that. >> well, there's actually one person who's shown a remarkable ability to pass amendments, to move forward legislation with republicans or with democrats in control of either chamber. and that's bernie sanders. he was the amendment king when he was in the house. he consistently over and over, more than any other representative, would pass amendments into law by working across two different partisan aisles, actually. and in the senate he won bipartisan acclaim for his work on the veteran affairs committees. and i think that that speaks to his style of politics, which is to be absolutely principled and have a tremendous degree of integrity but also after staking out his claim for what he believes in then figuring out how to work together and move practical steps forward. that's why i think it's actually realistic to think he can advance his agenda. not necessarily reach the goals he's ultimately aiming for right away. certainly not under a ryan
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speakership. but he can move things forward as he's shown over and over as a legislator. >> and lynn hicks, what do you expect to see in the general election in iowa? does the republican -- does the democrat, either of these democrats, have a solid shot at iowa in the general election? >> oh, definitely. i think iowa's a very divided state. the campaign will continue to be hard-fought here. you know, i give senator sanders a lot of credit. our latest poll says that of the democrats 48% i believe identify themselves as socialist. so i know that there's a belief out there that iowa's full of evangelicals, but there's also a lot of very strong liberals here too. >> i suppose there are some evangelical socialists out there. lynn hicks and ben wikler, thank you both for joining us tonight. >> thank you very much.
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>> appreciate it. still ahead, robert reich answers the question, which would he prefer, a president cruz or a president trump? robert reich takes on that one. but first, a possible third-party run by a candidate who has maybe 100 times more wealth than donald trump. what's that, broheim? i switched to geico and got more. more savings on car insurance? yeah bro-fessor, and more. like renters insurance. more ways to save. nice, bro-tato chip. that's not all, bro-tein shake. geico has motorcycle and rv insurance, too. oh, that's a lot more. oh yeah, i'm all about more, teddy brosevelt. geico. expect great savings and a whole lot more.
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michael bloomberg is more than three times richer than donald trump, if, big if, if you take donald trump's word that his net worth is $10 billion. if you use more realistic estimates of donald trump's wealth, michael bloomberg may be 100 times richer than donald trump. presidential campaigning has never, ever, ever seen the kind of money that bloomberg can pump into a presidential campaign. and so this weekend when coordinated leaks from team bloomberg indicated that he's considering a third-party run for president, democrats and republicans were given cause to worry. reports indicated mike bloomberg would be most inclined to get into the race if donald trump wins the republican nomination and bernie sanders is the democratic nominee. one hasty and not terribly reliable poll today shows a three-way split of support in that situation with sanders at 35%, trump at 34%, and bloomberg at 12%.
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worth remembering that the first poll taken when michael bloomberg became a candidate for mayor of new york city in 2001 showed him at the bottom of that field, with 10%. he ran as a republican and won the election in heavily democratic new york. bloomberg won that election against democrat mark green with 50.3% of the vote. mayor bloomberg spent more money on that campaign than any other mayoral candidate in history and more money than any candidate who'd ever run for any office in the state of new york. kurt andersen is back with us. kurt, he spent $60 million on the mayor's campaign. hillary -- >> then twice again to be re-elected. >> right. and statewide, senators -- senate campaigns were spending $30 million trying to campaign in the whole state. the money here is something nobody -- bloomberg money, no one can compete with it,
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including trump. >> and he has mentioned the figure of a billion dollars. >> for starters. >> 3% of his income. which is nothing. no, it's an extraordinary drama. now, the question is he has to decide much sooner than the nominating conventions if he's going to get on the ballot. so he has to decide that within a couple of months. but within a couple of months we'll have a much better idea of donald trump's and bernie sanders' chances. and those are his ideal candidates. then of course you have a new york billionaire versus a new york billionaire versus a socialist born in new york. which if you wrote that in fiction it's completely unbelievable. >> there's a lot of -- the instant analysis, which i think is all flawed, is saying oh, he would absolutely end up electing the republican, he would pull all the support away from the democrat. he ran here as a republican. there's a lot of republican in
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mike bloomberg. a lot of traditional republican in mike bloomberg on things like taxes and other issues. >> he is very much a republican of my father's era. even my youth he was -- there were plenty of republicans like mike bloom erg. the other thing to think, as we imagine this wonderful, delicious scenario is that if trump were the republican nominee, if sanders by some stretch were the democratic nominee suddenly the conventional physics of politics and oh, he'll draw more from trump than -- it's a new game. >> right. and the possibility exists in that race that no one gets the necessary votes in the electoral college, which throws it into the house of representatives. >> it does. >> and there's no dramatist who doesn't want to see that happen. >> and the particular -- the constitution on this is absolutely clear what happens. it goes into the house. each state congressional delegation in the house has one vote. and you need 26. so the wheeling and dealing going on between democrats and
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republicans in the house of representatives, you don't want trump. well, we don't want sanders. well, how do we get to bloomberg? it would be an extraordinary couple of weeks. when, for instance, thomas jefferson election -- first election in 1800 went to the house, it was a week of 36 separate votes. that would be a great week for us all. >> imagine the fights inside delegations -- >> exactly. >> -- the size of california and new york to get them to deliver just one vote. it's just an amazing thing to contemplate. kurt andersen, thanks for joining us. >> pleasure. >> coming up, the latest from flint, michigan as the attorney general of the state launches an investigation to see if anyone in the government might face charges for violating laws in that water crisis there. ritis pn and a choice. take tylenol or take aleve, the #1 recommended pain reliever by orthopedic doctors. just two aleve can keep pain away all day.
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this investigation will be thorough. this investigation will be exhaustive. and this investigation will be independent. and this investigation is about beginning the road back. the road back to rebuild and to regain and to restore trust in government. >> today michigan attorney general bill schuette announced an independent investigation into flint's lead-tainted water. but that investigation will be led by two people -- a retired head of the detroit fbi office and a former county prosecutor. the former county prosecutor, todd flood, has donated more than $10,000 to bill schuette's campaigns for attorney general since 2010. todd flood has also donated $3,000 to rick snyder's campaigns. todd flood today vowed to provide michigan residents with "an impartial answer to the question of whether any state laws were broken."
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joining us now is tony dekoupil, msnbc national reporter who's in flint, michigan tonight. tony, what's the reaction there to the announcement of this investigation? >> well, i'd like to tell you that the reaction is reassurance and positive thinking but that's not the case. i was unable to find anybody in the neighborhood i was in on the north side of flint who feels reassured this is truly going to be an impartial investigation. the residents here have been burned once in their view. they thought that the water was going to be cleaned for drinking. they were told that as recently as july of last year. and the government again is now saying trust us, we're going to be accountable for one branch by looking after another, and they're not going to be fooled twice is their overall perspective. but lawrence, i want to take people through some new reporting we got just moments ago. it answers a key question here in flint. and that is why have some neighborhoods been hit much harder than others when it comes to the lead crisis? a big piece of that answer came to us just a few moments ago. it's a map that i'd like to put
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up here. and it shows the freshness or lack thereof of the water that's actually in the pipes in the city of flint. you'll see there's a green area to the right there. the water in those pipes is less than a day old. a big piece of that answer came to us just a few moments ago. it's a map that i'd like to put up here. and it shows the freshness or lack thereof of the water that's actually in the pipes in the city of flint. you'll see there's a green area to the right there. the water in those pipes is less than a day old. that is very fresh water. that's the kind of water you want to be drinking. you see the red area and the purple area. that is very old water. it's six days old on average. and you will not be surprised to learn that the steepest and most severe cases of lead poisoning, the greatest samples of lead in the water, it's in that red area. and researchers from virginia tech who gave me this map, they got it from the city and the city confirmed its veracity with us, the virginia tech researchers tell me that old water like that is dirtier water. it sits there, it gets stagnant, it corrodes the pipes, and that's when you get lead in the pipes and of course that's how you got lead in the blood of the people of flint. so dramatic picture there and very stark difference between one side of town, which happens to be a richer side of town where the emergency manager lives, where professors live, where the mott mansion is, and the other side of town where
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very starkly different socioeconomic situations are taking place, lawrence. >> wow, tony, that's a fascinating map to look at. and that really does at the time the story of what you've -- and what you're experiencing in talking to people on the basis of where they live there. >> reporter: absolutely. and dr. mona hanna-attisha, she was the pioneering doctor here who first found elevated levels of lead in the children, and she pointed to knows neighborhoods where you're seeing those red pipes and she said that's where the problem-s triple the level in those neighborhoods and now we can see why, lawrence. >> tony dekoupil in flint tonight. thank you very much, tony, appreciate it. we have this programming note. rachel maddow will lead a town hall in flint on the water crisis on wednesday night. you can see it here on msnbc at 9:00 eastern. no one has done more important reporting nationally about this crisis than rachel. it has to be worth -- it's going to be definitely worth watching wednesday night. coming up, robert reich says ted cruz just might be scarier
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i wanted to take a break from my full-time career of writing things on facebook to fly down here and lend my support to the next president of the united states, donald j. trump. da, da, da, da, da, da! is what the lame street media is spinning. heads are spinning. >> he can kick isis ass because he commands fire. >> i hope nobody's allergic to nuts because we got a big one here. >> up next, robert reich makes what for him is the painful choice between ted cruz and donald trump. s on.
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lost revenue lost respect. well crafted solutions for today's problems in commerce. pitney bowes, the craftsmen of commerce. think of it as a seven seat for an action packed thriller. i think you were joking but you said, it's getting a lot of buzz. you said you could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody, that wouldn't affect the support you're getting from your supporters. >> well, you don't think i was joking. you know i was joking. of course i was joking. and the whole room was laughing. and i was laughing when i said it. >> you got some criticism. >> from dishonest press. me said he said -- when you show me i'm laughing, everybody's laughing, i'm having a good time. of course i'm joking. you know that. >> in the race between the joker and the fanatic, who would you
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choose? that question has ripped the republican party apart, but it's also now a question liberals are facing. robert reich has asked that question. who's more dangerous, donald trump or ted cruz, in a facebook post last week. president clinton's secretary of labor, robert reich, gives five reasons why ted cruz is even more dangerous than donald trump. one, he's more fanatical. two, cruz is a true believer. three, he's smarter. four, he's more disciplined and strategic. five, cruz is a loner who's willing to destroy institutions. professor reich says both men would be disastrous for america but cruz would be the larger disaster. joining us now is robert reich, labor secretary under president clinton and the author of "saving capitalism for the many, not the few." professor reich, i've been asking myself this question for weeks now, this very difficult choice.
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and you've come down -- let's go through your items. first of all, you've come down on the side of trump saying that cruz is more fanatical. what do you mean by that? >> well, first of all, larry, let me just say that this is a very close call. >> yes. >> and i don't want to say anything that is going to be interpreted as supportive of donald trump. >> right. >> but yeah, i think he's more fanatical in the sense the right-wing kind of deep kind of commitment to right-wing, far right issues not only rejecting even the possibility of human cause of global warming but also a woman's right to choose and also equal marriage rights, i mean, donald trump is not great on any of this, but cruz has really gone out of his way for a very, very long time to stake out the most extreme right-wing positions. >> and your number two argument point is that cruz is a true
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believer. and it's certainly my impression that donald trump doesn't believe anything. >> well, trump believes absolutely nothing. now, some people say cruz doesn't believe anything either and he's an opportunist. he is. but if you look at his record, what you'll find is the very consistent set of extreme right-wing principles. he hates the federal government. and he's always hated the federal government. and his positions have been consistent on that central conservative issue for many, many years. >> number three, he's smarter. so why is that a strike against ted cruz in your decision-making? >> well, i consider somebody who is that far right, who is very smart, to be much more dangerous than somebody who is just bigoted and a bully but not necessarily all that smart because somebody who is very smart can actually -- has a chance of possibly being elected president and implementing a lot of very goofy ideas. so, and what the record shows, it's not just his ivy league
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credentials. princeton and harvard law school and the fact he aced a lot of harvard law courses. it's that he has consistently shown himself to be very, very strategic. >> you also say he's more -- yeah. the next point. number four, he's more disciplined and strategic. and therefore a mess like trump would be actually easier to deal with than the disciplined and strategic trump -- than cruz, especially if you're on the democratic side in the congress and you're trying to stop president trump. >> don't even say president trump. even the -- >> mr. trump. >> -- the word, that combination, lawrence, worries me. but the point is what we see with cruz is a pattern over the years of playing the long game. i mean, he's been using the courts when he was attorney general in texas very, very strategically to develop his own originalist constitutional provisions and views.
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he has been doing that in this campaign too. trump is all over the place. but what cruz does is he hews very closely to a crypt and a set of talking points. >> and he has put things in jeopardy, your number five point that he's a loner willing to destroy institutions. he's been willing to raise the possibility of not raising the debt ceiling. if there's ever a president that doesn't raise the debt ceiling it would be president cruz. >> well, absolutely. what ted cruz in the senate was very often go over to confer with the house to actually urge the house members to go over the fiscal cliff. he was the one who was more responsible than anybody for the government shutdown. he really not only does he dislike institutions and he's willing to destroy institutions, but he is probably the most disliked politician. this is a guy who almost everybody detests.
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>> robert reich, thank you very much for sharing your very thoughtful thought experiment with us tonight. >> i'm not endorsing trump. this is not a defense of donald trump, lawrence. >> i'm glad you clarified that. chris hayes is up next. trump and sanders, could both win? let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews. what could be the wildest week in moerp american politics. could it be that voters, real people heading to a cold night in iowa will give victory to the twin candidates of historic change. donald trump promises to make america again. bernie sanders will stay here to the last year of his presidency. could iowa choose both? could the two names loom in the

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