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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  January 27, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm PST

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this story. thank you for being with us. good night. flint's own michael moore joins us tonight, but you may have seen donald trump's last debate. donald trump is not just afraid of megyn kelly's debate questions, he's afraid of ever having to debate anyone who disagrees with his policies. donald trump has now set the precedent for refusing to debate which is what he may try to do if he becomes the republican nominee. he will refuse to debate the democrat. >> i'm asking you to reconsider it. >> the gop front-runner says he's skipping thursday's fox news debate. >> i was not treated fairly. you know that, right?
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>> let's look at it from a broader point of view rather than how you feel. >> you doesn't get to control the media. >> i've got news for you, he is controlling the media. >> trying to look bigger than fox, bigger than the debate. >> trump may not show up on the fox news stage on thursday, but he's received another offer. >> we'll do 90 minutes donald and me. >> there you go, donald trump finally responded to ted cruz's challenge, can we do it in canada. >> we're going to go on forever with these debates. >> that's what america's about. don't walk away from it. >> you owe me i want them. >> this is a wilder sign that i can remember. donald trump is afraid of megyn kelly. he has spent months proving that, but he is more afraid of hillary clinton and he's more afraid of bernie sanders and
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that is why he pulled out of the fox news debate. he is setting the precedent now of refusing to debate in the general election against a democrat, but because he knows in a one-on-one debate, which he's never been in against a democrat, donald trump would get wiped out. the last two and a half hour debate donald trump spoke a total of 17 minutes, 8 seconds. in a one on one debate against a democrat trump would have to speak much more than that. no one knows better than donald trump that donald trump doesn't know anything, that he is an utter ignorant on all matters of governing and the more time he has in a debate, the more time there is to expose that. and no one can do that better than someone who disagrees with his policies. no one can do that better than a democrat.
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and the republican debates, everyone else on the stage agrees with donald trump about most policy issues, the game in the republican debates is to prove you are conservative enough. donald trump has no idea how to debate anyone who will attack him for being too conservative. donald trump is ducking a debate being run by the network where the highest rated host calls him a friend on his show and where he is the favorite guest of most of the other hosts. why would that donald trump then submit in the general election to questions in debates hosted by neutral networks who are not open friends of trump and supporters of trump? donald trump doesn't know much, but he knows that someone who's ignorant about government cannot debate his way to the presidency. donald trump is now playing the long game.
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tomorrow night is only the first debate that donald trump will refuse to participate in, but his friend of 35 years doesn't seem to understand that yet. and so bill, beg to donald to show up at the fox news debate tomorrow. >> i bought you so many vanilla milk shakes you owe me. i want you to consider, think about it and say look i might come back. forgive, go forward, answer the questions, look out for the folks. just want you to consider it. you owe me milk shakes. i'll take them off the ledger if you consider it. >> well, even though and i had an agreement that you wouldn't ask me that, which we did, i will forget that you asked me that, but it's up to fox. it's not up to me. >> you're telling the truth there. you're telling the truth. >> i said upfront don't ask me
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that question because it's an embarrassing question to you. >> i'm not going to listen to any political person tell me don't ask me anything. i said i'll try not do do the milk shake thing, just overwhelm me. i'm asking you to reconsider it. if you don't want to, it's up to you and i'll give you a compliment i don't know in he politician under any circumstances that would have done what you did tonight. >> a few minutes ago the stakes around the drama have escalated a little bit. super pacs have offered donations to charts if donald trump agrees to debate ted cruz in response to ted cruz challenge of a one on one debate the principal donors of the keep the promise one and two super pacs are offering presidential candidate donald trump a
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fantastic deal pledging to donate 1.5 million to charts if mr. donald trump agrees to debate senator cruz in iowa. joining us now political analyst and senior editor for the atlantic. i have never bought either one of these guys a milk shake. jonathan, if donald trump wins in iowa after skipping this debate, why would he ever debate again? >> i think it's a great point. he zpt want to debate these other republicans in smaller groups either. why does he want to go one on one with ted cruz who was the top debater in the whole country when i was at princeton and we know knows his way around a debate and he won't want to go against hillary clinton or bernie sanders. the question is whether he can get aaway with it.
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so the first presidential debate was in 1960, kennedy versus nixon. then in 1964 lbj said no to debate. '68 nixon had a big lead. he said no debates, same thing in '72. so it wasn't until '76 jimmy carter that the debate tradition really started. the question is whether for 40 years later with everybody assuming there are going to be debates that trump can get away with it this. i think what we'll have is a long debate over debates and then trump will be forced to cry uncle and attend them. >> i think donald trump has been willing to point to the ice enhour administration on his policies involving the mexican boarder. i don't see him having any problem pointing to the years we had no presidential debate and
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saying look the country got on just fine without presidential debates. >> first about the milk shake, this is msnbc so i assume i would get a kale smoothy. i think you are wrong. you're indulging your way of looking at politics. these debates are not places where candidates line up their policy ideas and micro detect flaws. this is like a scene from 2001 with the aips and bones. that is why donald trump really did, although he didn't always make sense, he completely crushed jeb bush because he dominated him and right now donald trump is engaged in a dominance contest with what has been for the miss six years the most powerful force and he is
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breaking them publicly and he is forcing them to submit. so if the question is who is the strongest force, he's winning that argument. one of the things i kind of wonder about if it should happen, it's hard to imagine if it should happen that donald trump does win the republican nomination he is going do do a fast pivot to the senate. he used to be can more of a gun controller. he used to be more in favor of national health care. what he's done is punched fox news in the mouth and gotten away with it. >> i strongly doubt it, but this is one of those great save the video nights because we're going to find out in the general election if trump is the nominee whether he engageles in the debates or not and if my guess is right or not. we'll be back to discuss that if it happens. let's listen to what -- he tried
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to teach him a religious lesson to appeal to his religious principals to come and do the debate tomorrow night. >> i want people to know you. i've never you 35 years. they don't know you. i know you. you went to church last week. you don't usually go. you went to church in iowa. >> i do go. i go a lot. i go to church a lot. >> you're a religious protestant. in your christian faith, there is a very significant tenant and that's the ten apartment of forgiveness and i think you should forgive not only journalists who come at you in ways you don't like, but i think you should be the bigger man and say i didn't like it and you should make that case all day long, but i'm not going to take any action against it. don't you think that's the right thing to do? >> it probably is. it probably is.
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>> so he tarks to me it's all about monday night. he wins iowa. his strategy of sitting out the debate is proven. you didn't have to do anything. you doesn't have to lift a finger to win new hampshire and roll on to south carolina from there. >> we have to pause for a minute and absorb what we saw. this is one bully elect yurg another playground bully elect on the playground. this is two out of the three biggest bullies in our public life right there talking christian ethics. >> that may be true in the republican dinosaur debate, but one on one, one on one, we saw in those debates with mitt romney and with president obama that specifics mattered.
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>> i guess where i tend to side a little bit more with david is that -- >> you can do that. >> i think you're right that trump might do this because he can get away with it and why take the risk of debates if he doesn't have to. he's doing well enough without the debates, why debate, but i don't think he's afraid because i think he does say it as an alpha male contest and he's very confident in his ability to master those events. where you're on to something is that he wouldn't brag quite so much if he wasn't a bundle of insecurities deep inside. so at a certain point we're going to find where that insecurity lies because the process is relentless in exposing people. so now trump has been exposed as a jerk. we'll see whether he's exposed as a coward. i don't think this incident does
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it. >> quickly, there are psychology teachers who are using tapes of trump to teach what narcissistic insecurity looks like. >> politicians are narcissists. if people were completely secure why would they go into politics in the first place. who needs this kind of validation. it's important to understand that he didn't run away from a fight in this case and p i don't a say this to build him up, but understand what happened here. who is dominating whom and that is -- that's going to be the important question -- even in trump's absence, if he indeed absent he will be the overwhelming force. he will be more present by not being there. >> thank you both for joining me tonight. coming up, some veterans groups do not want to join donald trump in the fight
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against megyn kelly and fox news and michael moore is here to react to rachel's town hall in flint tonight and we have new information about the standoff in oregon and we now know the identity of that armed malitia man who was killed by police. he has appeared on this program. and the last word tonight about a very special hero. introducing metris, the mid-size van
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i know there was some discussion the other day about a political interview where he was tipping the scale towards secretary clinton. i don't believe that at all. i think he and the vice president have tried to be president and even handed in the process and i expect them to continue to be that way. >> bernie sanders met with president obama today. senator sanders asked for the meeting in december. the president has had two similar meetings with hillary clinton. martin o'malley hasn't asked to meet with the president.
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up next, a veterans group says they will not let donald trump hide behind them in his fight with megyn kelly and fox news. was engineered...
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...to help sense danger before you do. because when you live to innovate, you innovate to live. the all-new audi q7. a higher form of intelligence has arrived. >> i don't know anything. in the true sense they're our greatest people. everybody say we have illegal immigrants that are taken care of better than our vets. it's not going to happen. it's not going to happen. from here, where do i go? i'm going to iowa. what am i going to do there?
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who the held knows. we're going to raise a lot of money for the vets. that's what we're going to do. we're going to raise a lot of money. >> that was donald trump tonight in south carolina. two veterans organizations do not support donald trump's political stunts scheduled for tomorrow night. they said if offered we will decline donations from trump's event. we need strong policies from candidates not to be used for political stunts. the group said in a statement don't hide from megyn kelly behind us. the chairman said today let me put this in language donald trump understands, you're a looser, you're a third rate politician who doesn't understand issues and who is so scared of megyn kelly exposing it that you're looking to use veterans to protect you from facing her questions. joining us now is the chairman of vote vets.org.
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you made it clear to donald trump. do you know of any veterans organizations that are participating in this event with him tomorrow? >> i don't. the last time he did this it was after he insulted john mccain and he went and stood in front of a naval ship with a group called veterans for secure america which ended up not being a legitimate organization. they didn't file paperwork with the i rs. it's going to be a group that he created. >> give us more much your reaction when you see a candidate like this saying for political reasons i'm going to do this debate, but here is what i'm going to do instead and i'm going to try to get veterans groups to help me out, what's your reaction to that? >> i think the first thing is when you run for president you have to be commander in chief. i think for those of us who have
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severed overseas this is a guy trying to dodge a serious conversation about where he stands on issues. i think his tempment comes into request question. you're not just a twitter president like he's sort of been a twitter candidate. you have to lead men and women in combat. i think his temperament is at issue. the second issue is hiding behind veterans. i think donald trump is a huge narcissist and he's trying to hide behind people that have credibility and i think it's up to us to stand up and say you don't care about us, you haven't done anything for us and don't use it because you're afraid to answer questions from megyn kelly. >> what's your reaction to what he says about veterans in terms of policy? i use the term policy lightly is because all he says is i'm going to be great. i haven't heard him say a specific sentence of anything he would do. >> if you look alt his website
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it says like the veterans fares. it's not called veterans affairs. he has a struggle with understanding basic policy. right now he's saying is veterans can go out to private doctors. there's no better tested message against privatization than taking a veteran and telling them you're going to hand them over to a private health care company. he's light on policy and i think that's par for the course for him. he's light on a variety of other issues including how he feels about latinos and immigrants. he's someone who strikes us as doesn't have any in-depth knowledge of how to help veterans. 20% of our troops are coming back with issues like ptsd. no substance with helping veterans. when you met him i walked up to him and i said i served in iraq
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and i'm trying to help veterans serve in office. he looked at me and said send me a letter in the mail and walked away from me. that was all i had to know of donald trump that when i met him personally he dismissed trying to help is veterans. >> thank you have very much for joining us tonight. coming up, michael moore is here with his reaction to the town hall meeting in his hometown of flint, michigan tonight. moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... isn't it time to let the real you shine through? introducing otezla, apremilast. otezla is not an injection, or a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. some people who took otezla saw 75% clearer skin after 4 months. and otezla's prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't take otezla if you are allergic to any of its ingredients.
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this is not a natural disaster. this is not a mistake. it's a man made disaster. we need to start using the proper words when we talk about this. ten people have been killed in flint. ten people were killed here because of a political decision to save money and put at lives the risks -- the risk the lives of people here in the city that is majority african-american where 41% live below the official poverty line. >> that was michael moore in his hometown of flint 11 days ago. here is michigan governor today. >> our goal is to get that water coming out of the tap safe as soon as possible. let's take care of the people of flint about making sure they have bottle water, filters, everything else they need and
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how do we get good water coming out of the tap and how do we rebuilt the community. >> the governor was a no show at the town hall event tonight. >> we asked the governor if he would come tonight to this town hall he never said no. he never said anything. >> joining us now is michael moore. big surprise, the governor didn't come to the town meeting tonight. >> certainly not to rachel's because she's been all over this for months, long before any of the other national media came to flint, rachel was there. i know everybody in flint tonight was happy and proud to have her there. >> you have said -- there's an -- this is a man made disaster by inadequate structures and designs in new orleans.
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this was -- there was nothing -- everything about this, everything about it was man made. >> that's correct. it was man made by a governor who belongs to the political party who's philosophy has been since 1980 that they believe that less government is better and the trickle down economic theory, the philosophy that says we only have to listen to the 1% that put us in office. if you live in a city where 40% of the people live below the official poverty line and 60% is african-american, we don't need them. so what's. that's the attitude and everybody in flint knows this. they've been complaining about this for almost two years. as soon as the water started coming out of the taps in april 2014. the rashes, the sores, the smell everything told you something
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was seriously wrong here and they would take it in bottles of water and take it to lansing. there was no government in flint. that's just a term, emergency manager. what happened was that the governor took over, fired the elected officials, the mayor and the city council. >> when there was no emergency at all. >> when there was no emergency. if anything the emergency was back around 1928 when general motors started closing factories and moving them to third world countries. that's when somebody should have sounded the whistle. he took them over and installed his group. essentially flint has operated under a dictator now where the people have no said and he said to the governor i can save you $15 million if we take the water and make them drink it out of the flint river. the governor said that's a good idea.
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there was one voice in the room that said it might be a little danger dangerous. if we just put this one chemical in the water, it will seal the lead in the pipes so that it won't leach into the water. and somebody in the room goes how much is that going to cost? >> and the go i goes $100 a day for three months. that's too much money. we're here to save money. because governor snyder had just cut a billion dollars of taxes for the rich in michigan, for the corporations in michigan, so he's looking for ways to cut services and costs and the ways they thought of cutting was to stop having people in flint drink from lake huron which is a glashl lake as pure as a lake could be these days, stop drinking that water and start drinking from the flint river. i don't have -- you have to be
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from flint to understand when you hear the words flint river. >> i get it. >> if i say. >> as soon as i heard there was a river in flint. >> if i said right now that the governor of new york had just instructed that the citizens of new york should drink from the canal, i don't think ut have to be here to know what that means. not a good y had. and nobody listened. right from the beginning he was told something's not right here and he just turned his head the other way. it was just -- i went to this 100th birthday celebration the other night here in town and they read from his plays and all my sons, the story of a factory owner that who was making parts in world war two for the airplanes and he sees that on crate some of the parts are cracked and he convinces himself it's probably okay. just a little crack. and then of course first a plane comes down and kills 23 soldiers
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and now the coverup begins. the rationalization begins. not only -- they were calling for his resignation because they were being polite because rachel was there, but we want him arrested. we want the attorney general to come in and investigate and prosecute this individual. it would be one thing if he's just dumb and he didn't know, but they knew. >> you live in a country where you can get arrested for driving recklessly without having injured anyone, just by driving recklessly. >> yes, even if won't your fault. >> right. >> because you weren't paying attention, if you ran a 4-year-old over, if your car goes over the curb, you more than likely are going to have to go to a jail. you can't say i didn't plan to do it. i didn't intend to do it. well, that's just too bad
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because you've killed a 4-year-old. this is far worse because they knew. in trying to save money, in trying to cut costs, while they were cutting taxes for the rich, this is what's so evil about this. this is what has got people so upset in flint. frankly people have had it. i wrote this thing today on my website about stop sending bottles of water. there's 100,000 -- that's enough to brush your teeth with today. this is there's no amount of bottles water is going to save this situation. and when people say to you what can i do to help, my honest answer is you can't help. you can't help because the irreversible brain damage has already occurred. these kids are ruined for life. there's no medicine. there's nothing that can turn that brain damage back. this has happened.
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and it was done knowingly. it was done knowing they were drinking lead filled water at least since last february they've known that. and it's just -- it's -- i wish there was like we could put up like your kind program on an 800 thing or a website you could go to, but these children have been ruined. now, we can stop further ruining other children and making it worse for them, but as of today as nbc reported not one lead pipe has been removed. not one has been changed out for something safe. this has been going on now since he's announced it in october, since he declared his emergency three weeks ago. not one pipe removed and replaced. i'm telling you, this guy has no intention of doing anything. he has hired a crisis management pr firm from new york city and that's why you're starting to see him make the rounds.
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not on this network. i'm sure he's been told not to come here, but he's made his rounds and he is trying to pr this thing. but it's not going to work. when he says that there is well 100 children have tested, like rachel said the testing for lead only works for 48 hours. you can detect some traces for 28 days. so if you're testing the kids now who drank the water for eight months, that damage has been done and it's left their bloodstream. it went into their brains and left the body. you can't test adequately for this. so any time i'm saying to anybody listening to this if they hear the governor make these statements, you must abide by this journist who said everything md by governments should not be believed.
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they should have to prove that they're telling the truth. you start with the assumption you're being lied to. maybe they're not lying, but make them prove what they're saying. hopefully my goal is to have him arrested. i want him arrested and put away for what he's done. i'm sorry to be so harsh. >> i understand your feelings. >> my town has gone through so much over these last 30 years with what they've done to the factories, the wall street and now this. everybody's home is worthless now. who can sell their home in flint? the value of their homes, as small as it was, is now zero. >> we'll take a break. we're going to be right back with more with michael moore. the biggest challenge for business today is not
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>> there could be more and we're assuming that. >> he's assuming that. >> i'm sorry to use such harsh language, but that's a lie. he's just lying. the doctors, the scientists, everybody who is there who has been studying this, there are 9,000 children, the people whose brains are the most appliable in terms of being damaged by lead. 9,000 have been exposed. that 100 may have been on one day, but they didn't test all 9,000 children that day. this is just a number the pr people gave him to say. just like he said two weeks ago when he said the national guard -- he's sending in the national guard. you know how many he sent in? seven. there were seven national guard showed up and he only activated seven from the city of flint.
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seven guards from the city of flint to hand out water bottles. seven who were already poisoned themselves. all 9,000 children of six and under have been exposed to this. and the adults. >> we're stressing children because children are much more vulnerable as they are in their fies olg. >> and they're innocent. the kids have no say who made this decision. now obviously the people of flint did not vote for this governor. he knows that. that's why he didn't do anything in part about this, but i think the one thing that got made on rachel's show there, a good point, is that there is a surplus this year of $600 million and i think the people of michigan who voted for this man twice i think that that money has to come from the state to fix the problem that the state -- >> what do you think the feeling is in -- flint for people who
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live great distances from flint, is this -- do you believe the state is now surging in sympathy for flint or do they think that's over there? >> i think the majority of people are sympathetic. the problem is nobody's done anything about this. as they said on her show, there's not a school nurse in each school in flint. there's one nurse for a school district. have you ever heard of such a thing. one school nurse for the entire city. you wouldn't know that if the water thing hadn't happened, but that was there before. when they said there is no grocery store in flint. it was that why before the crisis. how many other flints do we not know about it because the media aren't covering it and if your poor and black, you have no say in this.
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your voice isn't heard. and they've been living this existence for a couple, three decades now. at the end of roger of me that movie comes out in 1989. the last line in the credit says you cannot watch this movie in the city of flint because all the threaters have closed. there's still no movie theater. i thought that was awful there was no movie theater. there are no grocery stores. there's the little food markets. that's not just flint. i don't know if there's one in detroit. i remember this story that there's a whole half of philly didn't have -- if the people are poor, if they can't buy candidates and this is where the whole campaign finance thing comes into this too is when people don't have a say and because they can't write checks, then they're forgotten.
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i know we have just a few seconds here, but this -- flint was forgotten. it's been forgotten for some time. only because children got poisoned by a decision that the governor made now do we know these other things and i'm here to say it's not just flint, michigan. this is going on across this country. how we've turned this -- parts of the country. one thing i learned while we filmed this is that they don't do that to their own. the one. >> you went looking in the film for better ideas of doing things in other countries than here. this is one of those glaring examples. >> it's a glaring example because in other countries throughout history people have always done things to dis on other people, their enemy or
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whatever, but one thing societies don't do it is do it to themselves and to their children. if you want to have a strong people, you have to be good to our people. we'll let 29 million people go without health care. why do we tolerate this? we're the richest country on earth and that cover of time magazine this week with the black child on the cover, if you looked at it from a distance, you thought time's doing a story on a third world country and you get close and you see it's flint, michigan. none of us should be happy about this. >> none of us are. >> if they can get away with it in flint, they can get away with it anywhere. everybody watching this who lives in the flint, michigans of this country, you know it. they know it. and it's time for people to nonviolently get involved, rise up and get involved in this election year. don't sit and take it.
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it is our country still. it's the hope that rachel said at the end of the show, the hope is that. it's still a democracy. so don't leave us alone there. don't forget the flints of this country. >> and flint shows how pressure yugs that is. thank you for coming. >> thank you. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪
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one of the vehicles tried to escape and then got stuck in the snow and one man emerged from the truck, quote, brand issuing a firearm, end quote. the man was shot and killed by law enforcement. ammon bundy and seven others were arrested and charged with the federal felony duties through the use of force, intimidation or threats. the man who was kald was lavoy finicum. his daughters confirmed his death. after an interview 22 days ago on this program he became known as tarp money because in that strange interview he was sitting under a tarp with a rifle guarding his group. lavoy finicum then emerged as a spokesman for the bundy group. he was 55 years old. he said he left his ranch in the hands of his 17-year-old daughter. he was in another standoff with federal authorities two years ago.
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today only after his friend lavoy fun i couple was killed and after he was taken into custody and charged, only then did ammon bundy through his lawyer urge all of the armed protesters still at the bird sanctuary to leave peacefully. then a little more than an hour ago the bundy family posted a notice from ammon's wife on facebook that read, ammon would not have called for the pat ree on the to leave. we have lost a life, but we are not backing down. he didn't spill his blood in vain. stand your ground. that post was deleted a few minutes ago. in a youtube video released today by the remaining protesters it is clear that the spirit of lavoy finicum unfortunately lives on at the bird sanctuary. >> we have been ordered to leave.
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that means they're coming to kill us and they don't want you to see that. the american people better wake up and get here and fight for your country. right now it is on. >> what you gonna do? what you gonna do what the militia comes after you. >> if they stop you from getting here kill them. >> lavoy finicum never specifically said he would kill if anyone came after him, but he came close to saying that when he spoke to us. >> reporter: if they come here and try to arrest you, they point a gun at you, they try to put cuffs on you, how far are you willing to take this? >> don't points a gun at me. you don't point a gun at somebody unless you're going to shoot them. don't point guns at people. so i'm telling them right now don't point guns at me. >> reporter: so you're prepared to die? better dead than in a cell?
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>> absolutely. would you like to be in cell? nobody wants to live their life in a cell. >> he got to know lavoy finicum up there will join us next. then, woosh, it's gone. i swear i saw it swallow seven people. seven. i just wish one of those people could have been mrs. johnson. [dog bark] trust me, we're dealing with a higher intelligence here. ♪ the all-new audi q7 is here. ♪ start with a specialist. start with a team of experts who treat only cancer. every stage. every day. the evolution of cancer care is here. learn more at cancercenter.com/experts. appointments available now.
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this is lloyd. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief. to prove to you that the better choice for him is aleve. he's agreed to give it up. ok, but i have 30 acres
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to cover by sundown. we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. yeah, i was ok, but after lunch my knee started hurting again so... more pills. yep... another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? for my pain... i want my aleve. get all day minor arthritis pain relief with an easy open cap. here is lavoy finicum talking about law enforcement in an interview on monday, the day
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before he was killed. >> they're doing all the things, they're doing all the things that shows that they want to take action against us. they do not want to let go of this. they do not intend on losing here. joining me tony dokoupil. tony, you made lavoy finicum famous there. your reaction to what's happened? >> reporter: it's hard to say whether or not i'm surprised by this or i'm not surprised by this. on the one hand, lavoy finicum in that interview came close to saying dead or alive, you're not going to take me unless you put a bullet in me, but on the other hand he seemed quite peaceful. he was sitting in a rocking chair and i walked away from that conversation thinking there was no real danger. i was reminded of a quote there
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is nothing more kpil rating than being shot at without result. i thought that first night he was presenting himself as a person under threat, but clearly things had progressed and it appears that what he imapplied in that first conversation he meant. i began to think about suicide. i was a writer and didn't do any tv and i wrote a lot about suicide and there's a line in research that looks at the per verb of virtue. that's the moment in a person's life when they begin to think that life is more valuable in death. lavoy seemed to cross that line? if the reports about his altercations with police at the end are true, it cost him his life in the end. >> that is such a good point.
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tony dokoupil, thank you very much for your reporting from oregon and for joining us again tonight on this. really appreciate it. thank you tony. chris hays is up next. last chance debate. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. hillary clinton wants another big night with bernie, the former secretary of state said she would be happy to hit the stage with bernie sanders and martin o'malley. she told me earlier today that she hopes the campaigns will agree to sanction the february 4th debate hosted by the new hampshire union leader and msnbc. meanwhile, the contest between clinton and sanders is getting heated. a new quinnipiac poll today shows sanders leading clinton.

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