tv With All Due Respect MSNBC March 25, 2016 3:00pm-4:01pm PDT
stolen the nomination from the voters. >> he's not, did you. >> he has flat lined in terms of his share of the vote. >> he is not gaining any momentum. >> and neither is ted cruz. i have to go. thanks again. molly wins with batboy. >> i have to come better armed. >> you can make better references. if it is sunday, it's "meet the press." steve kornacki picks up our coverage now. good evening, i'm steve kornacki, the big news on the fight against isis and the terror. the pentagon now says handling g -- haji eye ma'am, baghdadi, he died in syria this week.
defense secretary ash carter called the death a major blow to the terror organization. >> the removal of this isil leader will hamper the organization's ability to conduct operations both inside and outside of iraq and syria. this is the second senior isil leader this month. >> john kerry weighing in as well during a visit to brussels, where he was showing american support and solidarity following the terror attacks earlier this week. kerry said isis is now on the run. >> it's fantasy caliphate leaders being decimated. revenue is dwindling, and fighters are fleeing. >> brussels have been dominating the news this week, and
presidential politics back here at home. president obama has come under intense chr intense criticism for his decision to press ahead with his trips, including a baseball game in cuba. also, dancing to the tango in argentina, saying the actions sent the wrong message this week, from the president. this week, national security became a top issue on the campaign trail as well. ted cruz and donald trump going after the president. >> we are fed up with a president who is so politically correct, he won't even say radical terrorism. >> they have no respect for our president or our country right now. >> joining me now, con tritt bue tore and editor at large for the atlantic, john stanton, buzzfeed news, and mention that msnmsnbc universal has made an investment in buzzfeed.
thank you both for being here. steve, let's start with you on news of the day. this is interesting. all week, we are talking about the horrific things happening, that happened in brussels, the aftermath of that. at the same time, the death of the number two isis leader, and john kerry right there saying isis is on the run. trying to scare thoquare those things, with that statement. what do you make of it? >> they coexist. i think what john kerry said is right and what ash carter said is right. we're killing top leaders in isis, rolling back territory, making incremental gains, but isis continues to have a whack-a-mole where it can animate activities, it is set up and put in place inside other countries, in this like paris, like in belgium and brussels, and so it's going in both directions. and i think, you know, i was just in brussels as you know, and met with leaders there, and what has been interesting after
the capture of salah abdeslam as that they were astonished at how large the network was, it was larger than they opened. that coexists with the military activities that are going on in syria and iraq that are moving isis in a different direction. >> well, let me ask you more about the death here, the killing of hajiimam. >> striking leadership is necessary, but as you know, far from sufficient. they are senior, experienced, and so eliminating them is an important objective, and achieves an important result. but they will be replaced. >> it's that last part, steve i'm curious about. they will be replaced. we make a big deal, number two has been killed, put all the responsibilities that he had,
and now they don't have somebody doing that. but isn't it true that a week from now, a month from now, they'll just be someone else who is number two. >> yes and no. yes, a number two down the road, but when you have someone like the number two, the finance, has a technical granular understanding of the financial apparatus that, you know, spans nations, goes over national boundaries, and operates in a lot of hostile environments. so to take that person who is really a systems integrator, operate in so many different places and move money, deal with supporters, and synthesize all of that, that's not a war fighter. that's not even a traditional general. that's someone with a sophistication far higher. i agree with ash, but replacing this individual is harder than he is letting on. >> john, let me ask you about the politics of all of this.
earlier in the week, when the attacks first happened, the president was in cuba, giving a planned and prepared speech in cuba. he mentioned the attacks at the beginning of it. some criticism he didn't focus on it enough. his words may not have been strong or tough enough for some. then the baseball game, the tango, this theme that was emerging, republicans saying, democrats saying this, the president was not showing suffolk us on the threat revealed by the brussels attacks, now the weekends of course with the killing of isis number two. does this event negate the pr problems the president had earlier in the week? >> i think so. i think it certainly goes a long way to eliminating that. but the realty is, president obama clearly realizes he is the last couple, like eight months of his presidency, and so pr problems, don't seem to be a thing he is is worrying about any more. he is on air force one, he can operate the government from any
where in the world. so while it create ace pr problem and looks bad, the functioning doesn't change much if he is in washington or abroad. so i think for the white house to kind of look at this and say who cares, you know. maybe the republicans don't like it. it works for their base. it doesn't matter for us. we're not up for reelection. it's going to go away in a week or ten days, and that's probably right. >> that's one of the things you get to say in a two term presidency. steve, what do you make of the criticism from an on the grounds standpoint? the president in cuba, when he gave that address this week, he did, this was the morning of the terror attacks, he started out by telling the audience, if you indulge me for a minute, perfunctory, does that matter how the president speaks about this? >> absolutely it matters. look, i largely agree with president obama that you have to walk and chew gum more creatively in that job than any other job in the world. that said, he didn't set up the country for it.
you know, he gave kind of a professor obama style lecture in argentina, a very long response to margaret, who raised the point. he should have intimated some of the issues that we're not going to suspend having fun, showing that we're about other things, and keeping america, about america not letting isis hijack and stop, you know, who it is and what it is to be american. i think that was a powerful message delivered after the fact. it would have been good for him to intimate some of the issues before the ball game and the kind of images that he knew would come out. >> let me ask you about the other party, republican party, tweeting about isis, he tweeted, just announced as many as 5,000 isis fighters have infiltrated europe, also many in u.s. i told you so. i alone can fix this problem. there is a school of thought, maybe not backed up by data, than a gut feeling, a school of thought that donald trump with
this message of strength and power that he is basically running on the power of his personality, an event like this plays to his advantage politically. what do you think of that? >> i think it does. this is the kind of thing that anybody that is aspiring to be a strong man uses to their advantage. he looks at something like this, i told you so, i've been saying the end times are coming, and i'm the guy that can protect you. the people he is appealing to, they are looking at what's going on at the middle east, attacks here at home, it makes them nervous, they're not the type of people drawn towards president obama type of leadership necessarily. by coming out and doing this it works well for him i think. it's a perfect thing for donald trump to try to manipulate and take advantage of. >> thanks for the time. >> thank you, steve. >> all right, and coming up, the real impact of the latest feud between donald trump and ted cruz. it is getting ugly.
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primary could be a pivot point for both parties. the so-called down ballot effect. if donald trump does win the nomination, could it mean the republicans will lose control of the senate, and even the house of representatives. but we're going to started to with women voters and the impact of the feud with donald trump and ted cruz, involving their wives. trump eventually retweeting this unflattering picture of cruz's wife, wheidi, who called trump sniffling coward. >> you know, in the last few days, donald trump has taken to attacking heidi. i'll let him speak for himself, but i'll tell you, i think heidi is the most beautiful, loving mom, incredible wife, and she is my best friend in the whole world. i love you with all of my heart.
>> one impact of this fight, it is renewed questions about trump's potential problem with women voters. especially if he becomes the republican nominee, and runs against hillary clinton. a recent poll, this was conducted before this week's spat, shows that 73% of female voters hold an unfavorable view of trump. that is worst than any candidate, democratic or republican. this has been building for some time now. way back in the very first republican debate, last august, trump was asked about past comments he made about women, including rosie o'donnell. during the campaign, he has taken heat for calling hillary clinton shrill, and for saying this about clinton's 2008 loss to barack obama. >> i may win, i may not win. hillary, that's not a president. that's not. she is not taking us. everything that has been involved in hillary has been losses. you take a look.
even her race to obama. she was going to beat obama. she was favored to win, and she got sclonged. she lost. >> more recently, this ad from a republican super pac, with women reading trump's own words about women. >> beca dog.
>> fat pig. >> a person who is flat chested is very hard to be a ten. >> i would like her right in the fat ugly face of her. >> look at that face. would anyone vote for that. >> and there are signs now that trump could pay a steep price in a general election against hillary clinton for all of this. he trails her in polling right now by 27 points among women voters, according to the nbc/"wall street journal" poll. senior political reporter, he i heidi. let me start with this. i had katrina pearson, a
national spokesman on and i asked her directly, would this spat with ted cruz over their wives, would donald trump's comments about women hurt him in the general election. this is what trump's spokeswoman had to say about that. >> no, i don't think so. we've been hearing this for a long
time. the gop didn't have women problems imagine magically in 2. he is going to continue to win women, because they care more about the education of their children, safety and security and jobs in this country. >> heidi, do you buy that? >> i think that katrina probably speaks for a small minority of women, while what she says is true. that donald trump is winning the women vote in many of these races, it's in a very crowded field and it is not symbolic. general electorate, which you know, the numbers speak for themselves on that. in terms of the 78% number,
there is another poll showing 50% have a very negative view of him. those are numbers that will be hard to change. let me just add this, steve. as a woman, let me try to explain a little bit what's going on behind the numbers. you know, democrats have been trying to prosecute on women for a long time. donald trump walks right into that. he takes it from politics to personal. there is not a woman out there, or very few, who don't remember kind of the eighth grade bully who called her ugly or fat. that's bipartisan. women - remember that guy and don't like him. it's visceral. he is making himself into t character on both sides of the political aisle. >> polling showing trump losing among women if he were running against hillary clinton 25, 30 points, in that ballpark. in 2012, for some context here, obama beat romney by 11 points,
so trump much worse than romney did in 2012. here is an interesting story. in the new york times magazine this week, headline is look out for the trump pivot. he is not talking specifically about trump and women, but what he is talking about here is basically if donald trump gets the republican nomination, he will reinvent himself. we will see a very different donald trump in the fall than we're seeing running for the republican nomination, and part of the basis of that would be that donald trump has already in this campaign reinvented himself in so many ways. so when you think about donald trump's ability to reinvent himself and be a chameleon in a lot of ways, does it give him potential to undo the problems with women voters in the fall? >> i don't know about the undoing, steve. but i do expect a pivot. not just with regards to women, but also, with regards to immigration, perhaps also with regards to financial policy. but what we're seeing here is even now, his comments about women are outrageous, but his
policies are the most moderate out of all of the gop candidates, so he is pro-life, but not as pro-life as the other candidates. he is open to having planned planned parenthood. he just doesn't want funding for it. so in terms of issues, i can see where he'll hook onto the ledge and say hey, i'm for women. but you know, beyond the issues, let's not forget that women out vote men. we've been out voting men since the 1980s. 64% as opposed to 60% in 2012. a trump candidacy in the general election may mobilize women, especially democratic women, who we know already turn out at higher rates to turn out even more so. so i think the question here is about turnout we know that republicans are already at a slight disadvantage, and my money is on trump pivoting, but let's not take our eye out of the turnout. >> what about the language he uses? when is he asked about this
himself, it seems he falls back on a few words, he uses the word cherish. he says i'll protect him. specific words, do you think they have any particular effect? >> i think that -- >> i do. >> sorry. >> sorry. just really quickly. in the cherish and love women, i patternle, if he is not, he is incredibly smart. he'll tone it down. general election, if he gets the nomination, he can't acceptsend these tweets. but the question is what is the memory of those women on the fence or in the gop. are they going to remember all of the things he said about women in the past? that for me is the big question going forward. >> heidi, you were going to say? >> i just think that the words cherish, i mean, that sounds very positive, but i think for a lot of women who are already inclined to view him negatively,
that's just another example of him objectifying women and they are objects. they're critical already of his choice of his third wife as a super model and i just, i think that that's not going to necessarily be something that he can pivot on. especially when you peel back the poll numbers, and you look at the fact, like i said, 50%, very unfavorable. if you talk to people like katie packer, the anti-trump super pac who cut that ad, she says 50% of women who saw that ad when they did a trial run, said it was new information to them. so the question is are those republican women then going to all of a sudden forget what they viewed in the context of this general election? are they going to stay home? are they going to cross over and vote for hillary clinton, which i think some of them might. considering the fact that the democrats are going to do everything they can to keep all of these images before those
women and the run up to the general. >> there is also the issue before we get to the general of how this could affect the republican race in the here and now. the other dynamic is with this dust up over the wives, ted cruz is using this as an opportunity to try to stand up publicly to donald trump. so it sparked an interesting exchange here with hallie jackson, our reporter, where ted cruz called trump a sniveling coward. let me play the exchange and see what you make of that. >> so yes or no? will you vote for him? if he is the nominee. >> i will say this. i don't make a habit out of supporting people, who attack my wife and attack my family. >> so previously, cruz had been saying, look, even if donald trump is the nominee, i'm for him. that may be changing right now. is there an effect in this republican primary race, vicky, that you see? >> i do. i think that the line in the
sand has been drawn. cruz is saying i'm not going to support trump. you know what? this is going to continue. we still have a couple of more primaries, they're still neck and neck in terms of delegate count. it will get ugly before it gets better. i want to touch on something on the attacks on donald trump's wife. democrats need to be careful about going after melania. i think that could backfire if they go after her for being a model with nude pictures, because that is seen as attacking a woman who for all intensive purposes, is innocent of any wrongdoing. >> agree with that i don't think the democrats will go after mel ly -- melania. it was to appeal to the voters. i don't think they'll go hard after her. but they will go after donald
trump on all of the things that he said, you know, in terms of objectifying women. >> heidi, victorivictoria, than the time. >> thanks, steve. still ahead, why wisconsin is so critical to both the clinton and sanders campaigns, and of course, to those republican candidates as well. also, we're going to go behind the scenes, crunch the numbers and look at the critical fight for delegates. that's how the republican nomination is really going to be settled. deals are being made now that could keep the nomination from donald trump. your medicare part d prescriptions, walgreens says, carpe med diem. seize the day to get more out of life and medicare part d. just switch to walgreens for savings that'll be the highlight of your day. now preview the cost of your copay before you fill. you can even get one-dollar copays on select plans.
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country, is looking to this state. wisconsin has a national platform, a national megaphone. so i ask each and everyone from now to election day to devote your energy to picking up the phone and calling your friends, family and loved ones, to get them to turn out in the polls. >> that is ted cruz setting the stakes for the upcoming wisconsin primary, less than two weeks away, april 5th, next one on the board. he is right. critical one. all eyes are on it, because it is crucial to the question that hangs over the entire republican campaign right now. that is simply this. can donald trump, will donald trump hit that magic delegate number in the primaries, so he gets it in cleveland or can the
stop trump forces keep him from hitting that number and create the open convention, where they could take the nomination from him. we want to look with that in mind at the big board here, and what you see is where the republican race goes from here. these are the states that have yet to vote. 17 of them. what i want to show you here is a scenario where donald trump gets to that number. gets to the magic number. so there it is. 1,237. that's where trump needs to get. where is he now. roughly 755 delegates right now. is let's play this out. the first thing, take three states off the board. that's neb rraska, south dakota montana. you get every delegate from these states really fit the profile of states where ted cruz has been doing well. for the purposes of this exercise, let's call those cruz states. okay, let's take a look here and start in wisconsin. the next state up. let's say donald trump wins
wisconsin, the way the delegate rules work there, that would probably be good, even if it is a narrow win. probably good for 30 delegates. take him to 785. where does he look next? the action would then shift to this part of the country, to the northeast. the good news for donald trump, donald trump has been doing really well here. he nearly hit 50% in massachusetts, new york is his home state, new jersey, winner take all, west virginia profile of a trump state. donald trump really could take 260 delegates out of this region. if he does that, he is sitting at 1,045. where does he go next, pacific coast, before that, we've got inyi in -- indiana. let's say he gets a narrow win there, 30 of the 57. moves him to 1,057. then we go to the pacific coast. they could be favorable. a poll has him 11 point as head
in california, slight advantage in oregon, washington. conceivable he could take 150 delegates out of these three states. 150 to this, where does he sit, 1,025. he is getting close to 1,237. if he were to have a good night in new mexico, he would probably just hit that number. so what you're seeing here is this is the path for donald trump. if he does just a little bit in one of two of these places, clear that 1,237 number. as it is, he just, just gets there. but here's the question. what if he loses wisconsin? what if ted cruz knocks him off, what if cruz takes the 30 delegates and not trump. what if cruz wins indiana or even kasich does a little better in the northeast than donald trump than they're expecting, take a few more delegates. what if cruz or kasich does that out here as well.
what if donald trump is not at 1,237. what if is he under 1,200. if he is short of that 1,237 number, if he is short by a pretty wide margin, we get the open convention in cleveland, can republicans take the nomination away from him? that is what we're going to talk about next. we have a guest who has literally written the book. not really a book, it's an article. how to steal a nomination from donald trump, and we're going to talk about that scenario with him and mark murray straight ahead. stay tuned. aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. i'm back. aleve pm for a better am.
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nothing so exciting as this stuff. i want to thank the people of louisiana. it's been just an amazing relationship. >> that was donald trump, celebrating after winning the louisiana primary earlier this month. but not so fast, because now we're learning that trump, despite getting more votes in louisiana than anybody else,
that he may end up being awarded fewer delegates in that state than ted cruz. the "wall street journal" dealing how a combination of rubio delegates and unbouned could be behind cruz, giving him more delegates in the state, even though he lost the state in the primary to donald trump. in a race where every single delegate is going to matter, these kinds of insider struggles. they could make all the difference at the republican convention in cleveland. joining me to talk about it, mark am you amurray, sasha rose how to steal a nomination from donald trump. so sasha, with a title like that i have to start with you. we set a scenario in the last block, where donald trump comes up short, short of the 1,237. let's say we get through the primaries, at 1,150, pull it out of the air, take it from there. what happens? how do republicans take the nomination from him?
>> well, so, under that situation, you would go through a first ballot. the question would be what would happened on a second ballot. what we saw in louisiana is something that the cruz campaign and conceivably others, although cruz folks seem most effective at it, people who arrive in cleveland as possibly trump delegates, based on how their states voted, aren't loyal to trump. their conscience is elsewhere, or they can be dealt with, for lack of a better term, bought off through some promise or another. or that they're loyal to somebody in their own delegation or in the national party who wan basically control how they vote. the other thing is that we can debt into the details on this. changes in the rules, changes through the contests and credentials commit me as they're know. so getting non-trump people seated as delegates is not just how they will vote on the ballot for the nomination. but making sure that if there
are changes to the procedures that end up benefitting non-trump candidates, that those people are loyal to the sort of trump cause. >> if i have this right, basically donald trump could get there and have a majority of the pledged delegates, they're pledged to vote for him, but some of the delegates actually don't support him, even though they're pledged to back him and then they basically institute some kind of rules change before that vote that frees them up. >> well, i mean, if he doesn't have the 1,237, most of them will become free on the second or third ballot under the state party rules. it would not require a change to the rules to open up the opportunity for those people to basically become free agents, even if they arrived in cleveland as trump delegates. there are opportunities to change the rules otherwise. i think the basic -- the only rule that applies here is if the rnc leadership and significant
portion of state party people decide that they want to deny donald trump the nomination at all costs, i'm not sure it even matters whether he has gotten the 1,237 delegates. there is an opportunity to rewrite the rules to help guarantee any outcome you want. >> owe okay, so mark murray, those are the basic mechanics of it. if they start moving in that direction, here is a preview of what donald trump is going to say. here is how he is addressing that question now. >> the majority is a tough thing, when you have all these people, mathematically unfair. now, if i have millions of votes more, and if i have 1,100, and somebody else is down to 4, 500, it's tough to take these people out of the system. >> so mark, how strong is that basic argument from trump? i've got hundreds of more delegates, millions of more votes, how can this republican party scheme to take the nomination away from me and give it to somebody else? >> yeah, donald trump essentially has two weapons that
he wants to deploy. the first laid out by our colleagues, ari and katy, has do with the fact that if donald trump is maybe 10, 20, 30 delegates short of the 1,237 magic number, you can do horse trading, promise one of the remaining unbound delegates that that person could be an ambassador in the trump administration. they could be secretary of interior, they would be able just needing a fraction of the unbound delegates to come in at 1,237. so that's one scenario that they could end up having. the other is just using almost kind of the promise of a rhetorical or political nuclear weapon, where donald trump has said hey, my people are going to wrie riot in the streets of cleveland. i have one more states than anyone else and somehow i'm denied the nomination. if you are an opponent of donald trump, you're left with bad choices. gets the nomination, on the
other hand, you end up denying him and a fractured party. a mess coming out of cleveland. donald trump imploring his supporters not to vote for the republicans in the fall. vote for hillary clinton, or stand out. so i think republicans are left with bad options, if you are a republican who doesn't want to see donald trump at the top of the ticket. >> yeah i mean, it sounds like republicans, mark, if they go down this road are basically deciding they would be okay with losing the general election, because there would be a good chance donald trump would go out and say what you're saying and cost them the election. >> that's right. but there are republicans that think they donald trump dooms them either way. there is really no good option if you think donald trump is a threat to the party. if you think he is bad news in november, you're left with bad option a, and bad option b. the hope for republicans is that you know what, donald trump is going to do much better than the current polling suggests, he'll be able to do well and
overperform in the midwest and some of the industrial states and be fine. but steve, in the delegate math and you put it very, very well. every person ends up mattering, particularly even if donald trump can get 10 or 15 short of the 1,237. what we saw in louisiana, and what we'll see elsewhere, the party can decide where people who want to be party actors, who want to help ted cruz, help john kasich, hurt donald trump, can be able to use their leverers of power to do so, and just as you put it, every delegate matters. it's like a close basketball game. every free throw counts. you only shoot 60% from the line. that could be very big trouble in a close game. >> sasha, we're short on time, but quickly, bottom line, if we get to the open convention scenario, in your mind, what is more likely, if republicans go be somebody besides trump, kasich or cruz or somebody else? >> my assumption is that it
would be somebody else, just because it would be easier to put together a fresh coalition. who wants to step up and take that, you know, you talk about mark's two bad options. i'm not sure this is how paul ryan wants to become the nominee, inheriting ugly. >> mark murray, sasha, thanks for the time, appreciate it. >> thanks, steve. all eyes on wisconsin. why a win there is worth a bundle of delegates, but a whole lot more than that, too. [tires screeching] and villains need cars. ♪ it's easy to love your laxative when that lax loves your body back. only miralax hydrates, eases and softens to unblock naturally, so you have peace of mind from start to finish.
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wisconsin is a critical battle ground. wisconsin, the entire country is looking at this great state right now. >> that is ted cruz this week talking up the critical importance of wisconsin. it's going to hold its primary a week from this tuesday, april 5th. bernie sanders on the democratic side is hoping turn the tide in his race against hillary clinton with a big win in a state that many people think is natural turf for him. clinton is hoping to shut the door once and for all on sanders' chances on the democratic nomination. on the republican side, donald trump hoping to break away from ted cruz and john kasich. to put himself on a much firmer and much clearer path to hitting that magic number of 1,237, and avoiding the dreaded open convention. joining me now, kr craig gilber
thanks to both of you for joining us. craig, i'll start with you on the republican side. a poll that came out in wisconsin this week that basically showed a tie between ted cruz and donald trump. a lot of speculation, i know out there now, about the role that scott walker, the governor, might play in this primary. certainly no indication he would endorse donald trump. the question is will he get behind cruz, how much would he get behind cruz, and would that matter with wisconsin republicans? what do you think of that? >> well, if he does endorse anybody, i think it will probably be cruz. he is trying to decide how much effect he can have. i don't think this is the critical f critical factor in wisconsin. one reason why wisconsin does matter, it is a level playing field. it has great demographics for donald trump, but he hasn't been polling well there. and you've got, you know, two weeks to wage a campaign where the stop trump people can wage money on television. a lot of conservative media
opposition to donald trump in the state, which has been significant. so i think more than the endorsements, donald trump has no support in the political leadership on the republican side in wisconsin, but more than the endorsements, there are other factors. >> let me ask you, john, about the democratic side. tell me if this is the perception nationally of wisconsin. college students in madison, union workers, liberal democrats, this should be a dream state for bernie sanders. is that fair? >> look, i think it's a better state for bernie sanders than a lot. rare is the state he has come in rel it i havely evenly with the last four or five months. and so yeah, it's competitive. but there is something you need to understand about wisconsin. we have rural democrats. we have small city democrats. we have, you know, campus and big city urban democrats. the party is all over the state. and one thing that i think a lot of national folks may not
understand, this is the first state since iowa and new hampshire where both hillary clinton and bernie sanders have visited a lot over the last 10, 15 years. i've been in small towns in this state with hillary clinton and in small towns with bernie sanders. the fact of the matter is, they each have deep connections. they know a lot of people. you're going to see a knock down, drag out battle. clinton has announced she'll be in with four events with the start of next week, going all over the state. sanders is on the weekend, and he'll be here through much of the week. they're both in a state where they think they can win. but i would counsel caution on assuming that, you know, somebody -- that just because of some demographics or some thing we know that puts them ahead. i'll warn you from one thing about 1976. everybody thought it was a great
state for moe. but when the rural votes came in the next morning, jimmy carter held up the headline saying he won, and it was wisconsin that sent him on the way to the nomination. >> after one of his losses that moe udal, the voters have spoken, the bastards. >> the democratic side, bernie sanders needs wins here if he'll play catch-up with hillary clinton. he needs big wins. do you see any realistic chance he could catch her in the delegate count? >> look, he has a long climb to go on the delegate side. i don't think anybody would deny that. i always caution a bit of care on the delegate count. hillary clinton is the clear front-runner. she has got tremendous advantages there. but what sanders needs at this point is momentum. he needs to post victories. so how he does in washington state this weekend, how he does in wisconsin, these things matter, because they're what kind of tells people, yeah, this
campaign is still going. it's still viable. so wisconsin becomes very, very important for him as a message to the states beyond. >> and craig, on the republican side, john kasich is sitting there at about 20% in the polls right now, ted cruz has been saying he wants the one-on-one with donald trump. he thinks kasich is getting in his way. is that donald trump's potential ace in the hole in wisconsin, john kasich? >> it could be. i mean, some of the stop trump people in wisconsin do fear those two candidates splitting the anti-trump vote, but with only three candidates in the race, donald trump has had a ceiling in wisconsin of 30, 35, so unless they split the vote down the middle, there is no reason why either kasich or cruz, more likely cruz, can't come in and win in wisconsin. so i think if you're donald trump, you know, this is a state that -- the kind of state you've told people you can win in november. if you don't win it, that's a blow to your campaign.
but if you do win it, you've broken the rules and rewritten the political map in an unconventional way. >> craig gilbert, john nichols with the nation. thanks for the time. still ahead, why donald trump nomination could be huge for democrats. when we breathe in allergens, our bodies react by over producing six key inflammatory substances that cause our symptoms. most allergy pills only control one substance. flonase controls six. and six is greater than one. flonase outpforms the #1 non-drowsy allergy pill. so you can seize those moments, wherever you find them. flonase. six is greater than one changes everything.
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at the top of the republican ticket has some party leaders scrambling protect the hold on congress. some gop donors are building a campaign to prevent a massive loss of seats in both the senate and the house. joining me now for more, jonathan allen. so jonathan, practically speaking, is that something that can be done in this day and age, if donald trump is the republican candidate for president, if he is up there on the stage, he is the one everybody is talking about, can they really separate themselves from him. >> they're sure going to try, particularly in those competitive senate races, in new
hampshire, and in wisconsin and illinois and other places. i think there is going to be a big effort to distance. some republicans want to put up another candidate for president, a third party or nonparty presidential candidate, in part, so candidates can attach themselves to that person rather than trump if he is thenami. >> what about the idea, if trump pivots, he actually he has, we've talked about this a little bit in the show. he has staked out positions in the primary, a lot more moderate than his fellow republican candidates, a lot more moderate than republicans have been spouting in past presidential elections, he is capable of pivoting stylistically into a way that he wouldn't be the kind of liability the republican leaders think he is. >> pivot is an understatement. this a guy that is -- peroet. he supports higher taxes on the wealthy. this is somebody who can try to appeal to democrats.
whether or not people, you know, voters actually stick with him on the pivot is another question. >> i guess the other thing too, the republican candidates have to walk a fine line too. if they're trying to distance themselves, he has demonstrated, he has a pretty sizable base within the republican party, they would risk alienating themselves as well. >> it's really a pickle trying to keep the senate. i don't think the republican house is in danger. it doesn't look that way now. check back in in october if donald trump is the nominee. but certainly, they're going to have to try to heal a party and keep the party together at the state level, at the national level fracturing. >> that house, if democrats were able to get some sort of tsunami, this would be very much in danger in 2018. that's way down the wall. jonathan, thanks for the time and thanks for watching. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics.
rat pack. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews, in washington. a republican campaign that reached the bottom yesterday, is now being fought in the sewers. first it was a smear campaign pitting one candidate against the other's spouse. today, a bat of rats. it began with the online ad by anti-trump super pack. it urged the target of audience to vote for ted cruz. trump reacted with an ominous warning to cruz tha w