tv The Place for Politics 2016 MSNBC April 3, 2016 6:00am-7:01am PDT
good morning. happy sunday. i'm chris jansing live from milwaukee, wisconsin, where it is 8:00 a.m. 9:00 on the east coast. and today, donald trump is in damage control. with less than 48 hours until voting begins here in this pivotal wisconsin primary, trump is in a last-minute bid to rebuild the bridges he's burned during what's widely viewed as the worst week of his campaign. stirring controversy over everything from abortion to nuclear policy to his campaign manager's behavior. so for starters, in an interview with maureen dowd trump now admits he made a mistake when he retweeted the unflattering picture of heidi cruz telling "the new york times," quote, if i had to do it again i wouldn't
have sent it. but his efforts to turn the page and play nice only went so far. he resumed his attacks on governor scott walker, who remains wildly popular among conservatives here. >> i wouldn't be hitting him, i wouldn't be hitting him, but number one, he hasn't done a great job. number two, there's nothing but turmoil. >> well, trump has a lot of ground to make up. trailing ted cruz by ten points in tuesday's crucial contest. and this is in polls taken before some of these most recent controversies. meanwhile, it's neck and neck in the democratic race here in wisconsin where bernie sanders can remain with a slight edge over hillary clinton. but the two campaigns are now squabbling about scheduling another debate. >> are you going to debate in new york? and when are you going to debate? >> well, i'm confident we will. our campaigns are trying to reach an agreement about that. we've offered dates. so it is a splint to the finish here in wisconsin.
sanders will be campaigning in was saw and madison. former president bill clinton will campaign on his wife's behalf with two events here tomorrow. over on the republican side, cruz hits green bay, eau claire and wausau, trump will make two stops in the milwaukee area. nbc's kerry sanders has been following the trump campaign. big interviews with "the washington post," with maureen dowd of "the new york times." damage control time? >> totally dodge control time. and interestingly i think what he's done is what he has tried to do in the past. whether it's effective this time is unclear. and that is, if he comes out with these bold statements he can direct the conversation. so he comes out and he says, i know more about nuclear weapons than the president of the united states, barack obama, knows. then he says to "the washington post," that i see our country heading towards a recession. and then he says, that he believes that he could actually eliminate the debt of our nation in eight years. all sort of bold, powerful statements to take away from
what most people that i've spoken to who are even at some of his rallies are talking about, especially women, which is his very quick evolving thoughts on abortion that if it's an illegal abortion a woman should be punished. and then, well, no, i think that abortion should become illegal that no i support the law, and sort of all of that happening within the week, leaving people wondering like, is he thinking about these positions as he's sitting there live talking to chris matthews or whomever? >> part of what he's learned in these early primaries, and again it was a different calculation, because there were more people running, and there obviously are only three running now, but, he could make these statements, and still come away the winner. what i'm hearing from anti-trump people here is that he has a base just like he's had everywhere else. personal
belief, has left some candidates in other elections it seems to have donald trump represents to this base, is that he is going to do something that has not happened in this country before. not only challenging the status quo, not only not being formerly a politician entering at the presidential level but really at
the end of the day challenging what looks like to many people the two-party system. even though he's a republican, flirting with the ideas of an independent candidacy, and also having this war within the republican party where the establishment is not embracing him. also in green bay with the cruz campaign, jake on, what's the strategy over the next couple of days to make sure that this lead holds? >> so, wisconsin, you wouldn't say is a tailor-made for ted cruz but he's doing so well here with the support, of course, of the governor, and then of congressman ribold who is an anti-never trump person. if you look at the most recent polls that have cruz ahead by double digits, he's winning with every demographic, with men, with women by double digits, with very conservative, with less conservative, with those with a college degree, and without did with everybody, he is doing so well, and it's very interesting to watch him so confident, and usually he looks confident, but this is a little bit different. yesterday, he was even in north
dakota, not even here, he was trying to get those unbound delegates, of course, that are critical. he knows that every delegate he can take away from trump is worth its weight in gold. and he was asked yesterday about getting in the mud with trump, and about trump actually apologizing as you mentioned, about that retweet, and here's what he said. sfwh senator cruz donald trump said it was a mistake to retweet that picture of your wife. what do you make of that? and does he owe you a personal apology? >> you know it's gotten to the point where i could not care less about donald trump. he says it's a mistake, that's fine, it's a mistake. >> so he's just fed up. of course. his strategy today he'll be here with the governor. he'll be here with carly fiorina. he knows that this is a question of momentum. mathematically trump doesn't have to win wisconsin. but if he, cruz, can change the
momentum game here, and he knows he needs that, because going forward we're looking at the east coast, new york, pennsylvania, elsewhere, where donald trump is looking good, cruz needs this state, really, to get that momentum to do what he wants to do at the convention. chris? >> yeah, and the margin of victory absolutely will matter. jacob rascon thank you very much for that report. meantime, ben carson today will be speaking to the north dakota gop convention, trying to fire up the support for donald trump. all of the republican candidates are fighting to gain support from the state's unbound delegates. they are the ones who are not tied to vote for a specific candidate. msnbc's jacob soboroff, our erstwhile delegate hunter is in fargo, north dakota. jacob, today is the day. they're voting on delegates. how's it looking there? >> so the delegate hunt continues, chris. this is a very, very fascinating process. i want to remind everybody, unbound delegates are not tied to the popular vote of any state. in fact there is no popular vote in north dakota. these 28 delegates that are
going to come out of this convention can vote for whoever they want and they don't have to tell anybody who they're going to vote for all the way to the convention in cleveland this july. right here our very own alexafter if i found the list that are going to be nominated to the convention floor for people to vote for today. here at the convention. just now, as we were standing here, a gentleman from the ted cruz campaign put up this list. if you cross reference with this is ted cruz supporters. he wants to basically shake things up here and elect a slate of ted cruz delegates to go to the national convention. it's a little bit of a north dakota floor fight. now if we look back at yesterday our own jane timm got to go behind the scenes with ben carson, who quite literally was in a back room, trying to make deals with these delegates to support donald trump. all of this coming to the has a lot of people feeling like this convex process is rather undemocratic. after ted cruz gave his keynote address here on the floor of north dakota at the convention center i went up to the senator
and i asked him about that. take a look at this. senator, do you think unbound delegates are undemocratic? >> i think the people of north dakota are going to stand together, we're going to unite and we're going to win this nomination. >> but the people are not picking the nominee -- the people don't pick unbound delegates. >> that's going to be up to the people of north dakota. >> he says that's going to be up to the people of north dakota. but the reality is it's not up to the people of north dakota. in this convention hall there are only 1600 delegates. it's going to be up to them to vote on this slate that's been put to them essentially by party elites. this also is happening in wyoming to some extent. colorado, and pennsylvania, as well. where some of these delegates are actually directly elected by the voters, instead of the candidate who gets the popular vote again walking away with these delegates. again to remind everybody why this is so important if donald trump falls short of 1237 at the national convention, which should look a lot like this except for bigger and more balloons probably, he is going to need these unbound delegates
to win the nomination on the first ballot. and that's what the cruz folks, with those forums, are trying to stop and donald trump with ben carson here is trying to make happen. >> fascinating stuff. jacob soboroff, thank you so much. and joining me now, someone with intimate knowledge of this hard-fought gop battle trump senior campaign adviser formerly with the carson campaign barry bennett. good morning. >> how are you? >> good. two interviews by mr. trump, pretty extensive conversations. telling maureen dowd how he made a mistake retweeting a picture of heidi cruz. and i think on the stump as i've listened to him, he hasn't been as harsh on governor walker. the interview with "the washington post." are you guys in fullout damage control mode? >> you know, the interesting thing is, if you look at the tracking poll, which reuters does every day, in the last five days when the media says it's our worst week ever in the past five days we've picked up six points. ted cruz has dropped two points, john kasich one point. it turns out our worst week ever
is a pretty good week. >> well in his conversations with "the post," mr. trump said he'd be able to eliminate the nation's $19 trillion national debt in just eight years. and "the post" notes that would require slashing the federal budget in half. how is this realistic policy that he can sell to voters? >> well, there are assets, the federal government has assets, too, that you could sell or trade for some of the debt. so, there are plenty of ways to do it outside of the budgetary inflows and outflows of each other. >> well, "the washington post" fact checked it, glen kessler and he writes, in the eight years of a putative two-year -- two-term trump presidency the cbo projects a total of $10 trillion in discretionary spending. even if trump eliminated every government function and check on every cabinet agency he'd still be $16 trillion short. $16 trillion short. >> yeah, but -- >> reinforce -- let me ask you -- does this reinforce the
notion that donald trump says things without actual hard facts to back them up? >> no, and -- >> by just saying it makes it true? >> no, because glen's not factoring any asset sales. the united states government owns, you know, more real estate than anybody else, more land than anybody else, we have more energy than anybody else. all those assets can be turned into money to pay off the debt so our kids don't have to pay it back. and glen's not factoring any of that in. >> so how's he going to do that? is he going to start selling government buildings? i'm sorry, what is he going to do? >> we can get rid of government buildings we're not using. we can extract the energy from government lands. we can lease government lands. we can do all kinds of things to extract value from the assets that we hold. >> $16 trillion worth? >> oh, my goodness. you know how much land we have? how much -- you know how much oil is offshore, and on government lands? easily. >> sir, does the campaign plan to put out something detailed to back up these statements? because, all the economists at
"the washington post" talked to have said that what he's proposing is not possible. >> in their limited view of it, i'm certain that is true. yeah, the campaign will work on that. >> i've talked to a lot of people in wisconsin who are part of the anti-trump movement here and they believe that trump has misread this state, barry, starting with going on the radio talk shows where he seemed, frankly, not to have any idea that these hosts have been railing against him for weeks. and it would seem to me that either your campaign team poorly prepared him, or he simply chose to ignore the advice. is there a third option here that i'm not seeing? >> yeah, there is. because if you look at the ppt poll which was out this week it was tied. and that didn't even factor in the fact that it's an open primary. i know everybody talks about this law school poll which is probably the five or six days old, but -- >> and the fox news poll -- >> -- tied. yes, exactly. but there are polls that -- >> but my question really is was he ill-prepared for these interviews -- >> no, he knew that that
interview was going to be very hostile. >> -- on the ground people are still talking about it today, voters that i talk to are still telling me today they can't believe that he went on to these radio talk shows and didn't seem to know who the people were or what they've been saying about him. >> he was fully prepared for those interviews and knew they were very hostile but he wanted to do it anyway. >> but he told the host that he was not aware. when, when he was said when he was told directly you know that we've been part of this anti-trump movement, he said no, i didn't know that. >> well, i talked to corey and corey seemed to indicate that he -- that they had told him who these hosts were. so you know, i don't know. >> well, let me ask you about corey lewandowski. you know, barry, how much controversy there has been about this. there have been calls for him to fire corey lewandowski. and now these reports out of politico magazine that his current role in the campaign is being reduced. what is the role of corey lune
zhou ski? is it lee than it was before all this controversy? >> absolutely not. corey is 100% in charge. he, has been, and will be, you know, corey's run a campaign that's collected 2 million more votes than anybody else. he's done an amazing job. mr. trump is incredibly loyal to him, and he's incredibly loyal to mr. trump. and though the washington spin machine wants to do all these things to corey, corey's not the issue. and corey's doing a great job. >> the final question i want to ask you about is electability. if we assume that mr. trump is going to get the nomination, in general election polls, and i know you seem to be pooh-poohing a lot of these polls, but donald trump trails hillary clinton in every key state including florida and ohio. he's down double digits in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and he's so negatively viewed by so many people, he far and away beats everyone in being upside down in
favorability ratings. how do you win a general election with those kinds of numbers, barry? >> well, this is interesting to me. because you know, everybody likes to talk about donald trump has the 63% unfavorable rating. ted cruz's is 58. mitt romney's is 68. congress is almost 80. so i mean, they're not -- those numbers just don't mean anything. general election you're going to talk directly to the voters. you're going to talk about the issues that people care about, not about what ted cruz or john kasich is saying and everything changes. hillary clinton has been a member of the washington establishment for almost 30 years. and donald trump is an outsider. i relish that fight. >> barry, we're out of time. but i have to ask you before i let you go, what's your prediction for tuesday here? >> i think it's very tight. >> so you think it will be within a matter of a few points? >> i think it will be within four or five points for sure, yeah. >> barry bennett, good to see
you. thank you so much for coming on the program. >> no problem. >> well the challenge for hillary clinton in wisconsin, next, we'll be joined by a clinton supporter to talk about why sanders is ahead here. and if she can turn things around in the next 48 hours. but first, here's what some clinton supporters told me about why they think she's struggling. >> i think you do have some people in wisconsin that may have a view that they don't want to see bill clinton back in the white house. shoots and burns its way into your day, i hear you. to everyone with this pain that makes ordinary tasks extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you. in new york state, we believe tomorrow starts today.
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today bernie sanders is making his final push in wisconsin where the senator holds a slim lead over secretary hillary clinton. sanders and clinton continue to be at odds over the possibility of more democratic debates. clinton is on "meet the press" today where she took a swipe at sanders when chuck todd brought up having another debate on her
home turf, new york. >> you think there's got to be another debate? you think there almost has to be? >> i want it. i'm confident that there will be. but i'm not the one negotiating it. that's going on between our campaigns. and i do know my campaign has been really trying to get a time that senator sanders' campaign would agree with. >> all right. he's proposed sunday evening, april 17th. are you in? >> i'm not negotiating, chuck. that's not -- you know, we've proposed thursday, the 14th, which gives people more time to digest what happens in the debate. is he in? >> nbc's kelly o'donnell has been following the latest development from the democratic candidates. what are you hearing from the sanders campaign on secretary clinton's comments on the new york debate? >> well, chris, we know that these debates do become quite contentious behind the scenes. what makes this different is that it has spilled over into the public conversation. we know that debates
strategically mean different things to different campaigns. so, from the sanders side, they wanted these debates because more national air time for bernie sanders is probably a greater opportunity for him to make gains. secretary clinton might be more exposed to the hum of a mistake if there were one, or tough questions because she is technically ahead, and leaders usually want to limit or control the debates. and, of course, we're in a new phase of the campaign, and having new things to talk about, perhaps a new audience in the sense that the next group of states could be watching, it's important. so the sanders team is saying that they're glad that hillary clinton is willing to have a debate. but they said that the offers made by the clinton side were, quote, ludicrous in terms of the scheduling. like up against the ncaa basketball game, as one example they offered. wanting to make sure there would be enough people watching a debate, as opposed to perhaps being tuned in to sports. so that's where it is right now. the kind of thing where each side accuses the other of being sort of either out of line,
outrageous, whatever the term of the day might be. you do certainly get the sense from hearing secretary clinton's comments to check that they'll get there at some point. but who will feel better about it? that remains to be seen. again, unusual because it seems kind of personal, and a little bit more of the backstage stuff coming out and being a part of the public campaign. chris? >> kelly o'donnell, thank you so much. joining me now here in milwaukee, clinton supporter and democratic congressman from indiana's seventh direct andre carson. >> a pleasure. >> this back and forth over the debate, and secretary clinton saying i'm not the one negotiating, where everyone knows frankly that if she wants to have a debate on a certain day she can certainly tell her staff to make that happen. is this an indication that she's more nervous and that the campaign is more nervous about bernie sanders than they're letting on? >> i don't think she's nervous at all. three different dates have been proposed to which the sanders campaign has declined. i think that secretary clinton understands that there will be
competing interests on the days that his side has proposed. so we're trying to come to a happy medium but she is certainly not afraid. >> let's talk a little bit about what's happening here in wisconsin on tuesday, key obviously for any democrat is mad somebody and the area around madison. >> sure. >> clinton is losing there by ten points. she lost dane county which is that area to barack obama in 2008 by 37 points. why do you think there's so much trouble for her there in particular? and why is she having trouble in a state that has almost always backed the front-runner in modern times? >> well i think that certain sanders represents progressive possibilities, as does secretary clinton. i think -- >> but he's done a better job of selling it? >> i don't think so. i think she's leading nationally and it's very clear. at the end of the day people will pick the best person who will be the ultimate ceo of our country and that's secretary clinton. if you look at her record as first lady of arkansas, first lady of the united states of america, the u.s. senator, secretary of state, even as secretary of state a lot of the
things that senator sanders is talking about in terms of climate change, she led the effort. and so what we're seeing right now is secretary clinton really getting prepared to be the first woman president and as someone who is a former cop, who worked in counterterrorism at homeland security, in the state of indiana, and who sits on the intelligence committee i think at the end of the day secretary clinton is most prepared to lead our country when she's handed a briefing by the fbi, and the cia on day one. she will be the one to take the helm and lead us into the future. >> one of the things that she talks about a lot and in fact she's admitted it's kind of frustrating for her that she hasn't done better with it, is she feels like she's fought for the little guy her whole career and she talks about it. and yet when you look at white working-class, especially white working-class male, bernie sanders does much better than she does. she has her strongest lead with the african-american community, can she turn that around? why do you think that she's been
trailing? why has she been struggling? is it maybe that his comments about where she gets her money from, in earp its of campaign contributions. but also the big money for speeches is resonating with people. >> well, i think that senator sanders, who i am a fan of, i had dinner with him at the faith and politics institute last year in alabama, i think that he's misrepresenting the claims in terms of her getting money from big oil and gas. it's untrue. certain employees, perhaps. and so i think he's speaking in to a sense of disillusionment and discontent that people have with the american government. but these claims are false. at the end of the day, i'm confident that the american people will pick hillary clinton as their choice for u.s. president. >> what do you think's going to happen here in wisconsin? >> well, i think the numbers are within the margin of error and we'll see on tuesday, but her campaign -- >> what's going to make the difference, do you think? have you been talking to people in wisconsin? >> absolutely. i think that now that president bill clinton is here, i think she has some powerful surrogates who will seal the deal. she's been working tremendously hard. she is a work machine.
and people like myself, maxine waters, and others have come to the state to really rev up the base and once we're here people are excited about hillary clinton. >> congressman, thank you for being here. thank you for coming in. ahead the role independents will play on tuesday as we roll on from milwaukee, wisconsin. we'll be right back. ♪ there it is... this is where i met your grandpa. right under this tree. ♪ (man) some things are worth holding onto. they're hugging the tree. (man) that's why we got a subaru. or was it that tree? (man) the twenty-sixteen subaru outback. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. i built my business with passion. but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one.
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25-year-olds and a 27-year-old, and so i think we're looking to hear, you know, how they're going to be put in a place where they can do things like buy houses and do all the things that we want them to do. >> do you feel that the american dream is elusive for your kids, and for kids who are graduating college these days? different from when we went to school? >> i think it's much harder for them right now than it was for us. so, yeah. >> she hasn't asked you but i'll ask you. do you know who you're going to vote for? or are you still deciding? >> i'm closer to bernie. >> why? >> i think he's more towards the single-payer health care plan. which i think will eventually be -- >> has she not been asking you because you guys don't want to fight? >> no. no. i value her opinion a lot. >> we just like to let each other decide, and not influence, and so, we're also, to be honest, thinking about the republicans. because i'm really not in favor of trump being president. and it's gshs >> so you would cross over and
vote against trump essentially? you're talking about doing that? >> yes, we were both considering kasich for that. but there's a thought process that a vote for kasich is actually a vote for trump and i really don't feel i can vote for cruz. so -- >> you're thinking about crossing over, too? >> to avoid trump? yes. >> what is it about him that you would leave your party, essentially, and vote on the republican side -- >> i think we're a little more independent. so we're originally from massachusetts, where -- so we're more on the independent side there than the democrat side there. but, it's so many of the things that he says are just so objectionable. >> anything in particular that really said to you that he can't be president? >> his ideas are just so messed up. he can't be president. >> are you worried he might be? >> yes. >> yeah.
>> so, one of the reasons tuesday's vote will be difficult for undecideds like that couple is the front-runners in both parties are not only trailing in the latest wisconsin poll but are deeply unpopular here. donald trump has a net unfavorable rating of almost 50 points. hillary clinton's unfavorable rating is under water by 23 points. and she's going up against bernie sanders who along with john kasich is the only candidate with a net positive rating. so how will all of this play out on tuesday night? i want to bring in hillary clinton supporter wisconsin state senator and ted cruz supporter wisconsin state representative thanks to both of you for being here. so you know the numbers for hillary clinton. >> yes. >> particularly you don't live very far from madison. your district is not far from madison, and that's where bernie sanders is doing particularly well where he's counting on a big turnout. what's going to keep it close? >> well, what's going to keep it close is a ground game that's going on actually in both campaigns. and hillary clinton is not taking wisconsin for granted going after one vote at a time.
working really hard. been to the state here quite a bit. not only in this election cycle but certainly going back in the past. working very hard. it will be close tuesday. i don't have any doubt about that. but i know both campaigns are working really hard. >> we just had barry bennett on, donald trump's campaign manager and he's saying well we actually see the national polls how he's actually been gaining over the last week. he's totally disputing the idea that donald trump has had a very bad week. how do you see it on the ground? what are you hearing? >> well, i've seen from a lot of people like because i've been out a lot this past week because we're out of session, people talking about just shaking their heads. they're trying to figure out why donald trump can be the front-runner at this point. and a lot of the polls, especially the marquette poll that came out a little earlier this week, was before the town hall that happened here, in wisconsin. >> with the abortion comment. >> and the abortion comments, the nuclear proliferation comments that he made at the
town hall. all those kinds of things i think people on the ground are seeing that he really isn't formulated his policies as well as we'd like to see someone who's maybe going to be our next president. >> independents are allowed to vote here which we heard from some people at the dinner last night, it was a democratic dinner but they were independents. among that group hillary clinton has a net unfavorable rating of 29 points. in the latest marquette poll. are you worried about the independent vote and could it help bernie sanders? >> no. i'm not worried at all. i would tend to think that he again, like i said, it will be a close race. i snow senator sanders is slightly ahead in a couple of polls here. he's worked really hard. he draws large crowds when he comes to wisconsin. he's been to wisconsin before when there's something called the fighting bobcats, so we expect to close race on tuesday. the clinton campaign has been workkng very hard. been on the ground. president clinton's in wisconsin, hillary was here last night. so, independents won't make that much of a difference. i don't think --
>> but even in a close race? >> i don't think so. not in our race. on the republican side, perhaps. but if you take a look at the republican race from the beginning it's been kind of like a cleanup on aisle 5 sort of scenario where he's been really messy, really dicey, democrats, bernie sanders, hillary have been focusing more so on the issues which is why i think either one will win in the fall when the general election rolls around. but tuesday night, close race. >> so much of this race is about delegates and that's what ted cruz is playing, as well as john kasich, that they think they can get to the convention and push donald trump out. let me play what ted cruz said about the delegate race just yesterday. >> that we go in to a convention with nobody having got crossed that threshold, in that case we'll have a contested convention. we'll go in with a ton of delegates, donald trump will go in with a ton of delegates, and then it will be a battle at the convention to see who can earn a majority of the delegates. delegates elected by the people.
in that situation, i think we will be in a very, very strong position. i believe we will earn a majority of the delegates either before the convention, or on the convex floor, and either way, we're going to be the republican nominee. >> does that reinforce what drew so many people, frankly, in the first place, to donald trump, which is that the insider's play a game, it's not about the will of the people, it's about the people who are in a position of power, who are maneuvering things to get what they want? >> i think you're going to see in wisconsin, because we do have this delegates that are not only overall the electorate, but also by regions by our congressional districts. you're going to see that people have really dug in to what the candidates are talking about and who they really believe can be the next leader. i don't believe that it is something that is folks are playing games. i think mr. trump had a leg up
because of his celebrity. he has a great brand. he's done a lot of things good over his career in business. he just doesn't have what it takes, and hasn't studied enough, i believe, to really know how to take a look at all the issues when it comes to foreign policy, all of those tieps -- >> if ted cruz wins here, as it looks like he will in the polls, is this going to be an anomaly or something that's going to be a turning point in the race? >> i definitely think it's going to be a turning point. i think people, especially conservatives, have been talking about we really need to look at the base of the individual person. i think that it has been proven here in wisconsin, when we finally got down to just a couple of candidates, and could actually talk about more policy issues, that the people of wisconsin are looking at those policy issues. not only that they're not satisfied with mr. trump's demeanor and his attitude of calling names when he doesn't have a good policy answer, that
we really want to know what a candidate thinks that they're going to be able to accomplish. >> and on the democratic side if hillary clinton is able to pull out a surprise upset and we see bernie sanders win here does it give you a narrative over the next two weeks that helps him going forward that prolongs this race? >> i don't think so. the profile of wisconsin and democratic voters tends to fit the more progressive candidate coming through. >> but they've always in modern history pretty much backed the front-runner. >> right. but if you take a look at what's going on, take a look at the math, wisconsin moving forward, let's say senator sanders does win wisconsin. i don't think that's a given, but if he does it's still going to be difficult for him to get the nomination. new york's coming up, hillary clinton will do well in new york and is working hard already on the ground in new york. so just looking at the math, and the delegate count out there, i don't see how senator sanders even with a wisconsin victory, pro-tells him to the nomination. >> i appreciate you both coming in. >> thanks. >> on a beautiful morning in milwaukee. little nicer than yesterday when we were in a snowstorm.
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step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you. these crazy talk show hosts who i dealt with, i call them, hello. do you know i'm for anybody but trump? i said i didn't know that. go ahead, what's your question. i don't care. actually anybody that listened to it, i don't think he's a very smart guy. >> donald trump continuing his battle against conservative talk radio hosts in wisconsin. they're the megaphone for the anti-trump efforts here. where they look poised to stall the front-runner on tuesday. here to talk about it, political director for the wisconsin realtor's association joe murray who is a close observer of politics in wisconsin for decades, and also observing the anti-trump movement here. there's a classic sort of little section there that people i think in a lot of the rest of the country don't really experience, and that is the power of talk radio, particularly in milwaukee. how is that going to play out on
tuesday, do you think? >> in southeast wisconsin, wisconsin is a talker's kind of state in general. but in southeast wisconsin, the strongest of the strong are centered there. it's the population center of the state. demographically, it is higher income. higher education. very politically engaged. they know what's going on. talk radio is an outlet for them, and from the very beginning local talkers in wisconsin have been opposed to donald trump from the very beginning, in spite of what was going on at the national level. they have an enormous amount of influence in the southeastern -- >> you might have heard barry bennett say who is a senior adviser to the trump campaign that they did prepare him for that interview but he just acknowledged there in that little sort of mocking thing that he did yesterday that he didn't know that they were against him. how influential can they really be? understanding that they're well listened to, but how influential can they be? >> i think they can be very influential.
i'll use an example to make the point. back in 2010, congressman -- former congressman mark newman was running against then county executive scott walker, and the race started to tighten, as they often do in the primary, and all of the sudden it became clear to everybody that mark newman was doing very well and most of the rest of the state, but that scott walker needed to really pull out his base in the southeastern part of the state. he did that with the help of talk radio, and he not only went on to win that primary, he went on, he cruised to a very easy victory in that race. and i think talk radio was a big part of that. >> you're also in the business specter, and i have to say that i've been surprised by the number of people i've talked to who are business leaders in wisconsin, who not only are going to vote for someone else, but they are vehemently anti-trump. and you know, i asked barry bennett about some comments that mr. trump made to "the washington post" about how he was going to reduce the deficit.
here's what he had to say about how he thought they could accomplish that. >> we can get rid of government buildings we're not using. we can using. we can extract the energy from government lands, lease government lands. we can do all kinds of things to extract value from the assets we hold. >> $16 trillion worth? >> oh, my goodness. you know how much land we have? you know how much oil is offshore on government lands. easily. >> and he doesn't even mention the fact that's not something a presidential can do unilaterally, nevertheless, i have been surprised and i wonder if my anecdotal observations are what you know closely. how does the business feel about donald trump who is a successful businessman? >> i think they're mixed. i think there's one overriding concern for those who are not supportive of donald trump. that's uncertainty. business people like things to be certain. they like to know what the rules are.
they want to know what the future is going to hold and whether it's donald trump the candidate or donald trump and his spokespeople, what you usually get are generalities without specifics. and grand pronouncements and not very sure exactly how they're going to get there because they're just short on detail almost all the time. >> so i'm going to ask you for your gut because you follow politics for such a long time. as we were just pointing out, a lot of the so-called gaffes made by donald trump in the last week happened after the polls came out that showed him two in a row ten points down to ted cruz. could it be an even wider margin? what is your take on how close or not close this could be on tuesday? >> on the democratic side, bernie sanders is probably going to win. i don't think it will be as much as barack obama back in 2008. that was a 17-point win. i don't think it will be that big. on the republican side, i think the momentum is on ted cruz's side. i have seen it in the numbers. i was looking at them again last
night going back to january in the marquette polls when trump was ahead. it's a complete reversal of what has taken place, and the two -- the one yaarea where it's reall taking hold is southeastern wisconsin. >> what has brought about the change and has them bucking tradition that we mentioned several times this hour to back the front-runner? >> wisconsin's highly engaged. we're right in the middle of the caucuses and the primaries in the nation. we're stand-alone for two weeks all by ourselves. you take a fully engaged state that is used to political combat for the last six years and paying close attention and going out and voting. >> i would argue political war even. >> well, that, too. and they're very used to paying attention and listening to what candidates have to say. and i don't think anybody would argue that donald trump has had a good two weeks. >> record turnout on tuesday? >> yes. >> how big? >> the government accountability
board has predictedfore%. i think we'll probably hit that. >> joe murray, thanks for coming in. >> we'll have a lot more from milwaukee right after this. tired of working for peanuts? well what if i told you that peanuts can work for you? that's right. i'm talking full time delivery of 7 grams of protein and 6 essential nutrients. ever see a peanut take a day off? i don't think so. harness the hardworking power of the peanut.
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we've got some breaking news to tell you about. there's been an amtrak train derailment just south of philadelphia. this train was heading from new york, left penn station, heading to savannah, georgia, when the accident happened. according to amtrak, there were about 341 passengers onboard, seven crew members. authorities say no one on the train itself is injured, but there are unconfirmed reports there may have been casualties on the ground, perhaps a few people killed. we have not been able to confirm that. amtrak service between new york and philadelphia has been suspended, as you can see, there are crews on the scene. we'll keep you updated through the day here on msnbc. that's going to do it for me here in milwaukee. thanks so much for joining us. i'll be back with you at 3:00 eastern time. joy reid will take over our next
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morning,anch. i'm joy reid here at nbc world headquarters in new york. first, breaking news. an amtrak train carrying more than 300 people partially derailed this morning after hitting a backhoe outside of philadelphia. the nbc affiliate in philadelphia is reporting two people are dead, but we have not confirmed those reports. all amtrak service between philadelphia and new york has been suspended and we'll have more on this as it develops. meanwhile, we're two days away from the wisconsin primary, and the latest polling shows that on the democratic side, bernie sanders is up by six points in the badger state. a lead that's just outside the poll's margin of error. this past week, sanders and hillary clinton have been slugging at each other over fossil fuel