tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC April 4, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
that began that night in cities all over america. indianapolis was not one of them. two months and two days later, on the night that he won the california primary, bobby kennedy was assassinated. >> will the plot to stop donald trump finally work in wisconsin? >> our campaign -- >> donald trump bernie sanders and ted cruz all speak live in wisconsin at this hour. tonight why trump is winning votes but losing the delegate fight. exclusive reporting from inside the trump campaign from "new
york" magazine's gabe sherman. then clinton supporter james carville on hillary versus bernie. >> why would the democrats nominate someone who's not even a democrat? >> and why early mistakes by senator sanders could prove insurmountable for his campaign. >> i don't want to get hillary clinton more nervous than she already good evening from milwaukee, wisconsin. i'm chris hayes. we're coming to you live from the lakefront brewery. just a few minutes from here, donald trump is due to take the stage any moment now accompanied by his wife who is making a very rare campaign appearance. just dn the street from that trump event, bernie sanders is holding a big rally at the exact same time. about 20 miles west of her, ted cruz about to speak at a rally in the state's conservative stronghold. what may be a sign of their expectations for tomorrow, tonight.
they held earlier events in different parts of new york state. joining me now from inside that trump rally, nbc news correspondent, jacob. a very different scene from what i gather at tonight's trump rally in downtown milwaukee. >> donald trump expected here shortly with his wife for the first time since south carolina. even though he's behind in the polls, this is rare for him. even though ted cruz is the front-runner, he's predicting a big win. he's been doing that all day. we know he really wants it. he's out with three events today, three events yesterday. three events on saturday. he was doing a retail stop for the first time since south carolina pulling all the stops but not doing well until the polls. chris. >> jacob, can you give me a sense of what it's like inside there. the sense is despite anticipation and a lot of
protests outside and a big crowd, the venues fairly sparsely attended for a trump rally. no line outside. no big protests as far as we can tell at this point. >> no, this may be because the bernie sanders rally is going on at the same time. a will the of trump protesters we see admit they are bernie sanders supporters. we met a few who are planning on protesting but they said it's too cold and we want to attend the sanders rally. one more point, we've seen in wisconsin, a change for trump because of the protesters. he's admitted he is choosing smaller venues and screening the line so the disruptions don't happen. >> thank you very much. joining me now from inside the sanders rally just inside the block, msnbc political correspondent kacie hunt. what's the scene like? >> a relatively small crowd for a bernie sanders rally. looking like we height get to a thousands or two strong here
tonight. his rallies have been more sparsely attended over the course of the last 24 hours or so. we've seen three of those. sanders expecting to win in wisconsin. he's pushing on a hand to laramie, wyoming trying to she he will stay in this to win it. i think there's a bit of -pexpectations game playing at this point. i think it will be a question of assuming sanders is able to pull out a win here. just how wide that margin is, chris. >> all right. thank you. meanwhile, donald trump is acknowledging the high stakes of tomorrow's vote here in wisconsin where the 42 delegates up for grabs could be the difference between getting to the magic number of 1237 delegates to lock up the nomination or going to a contested convention in cleveland this july. >> if we do well here, folks, it's over.
if we don't, if we don't win here it's not over. wouldn't you like to take the credit in wisconsin for ending it. your vote will be important tomorrow because the world is watching, wisconsin. they're seeing if this momentum from this incredible movement is going to be slowed down. >> right now at that trump event, trump's wife is speaking. a rare campaign appearance when he's struggling with women voters. let's take a listen. >> a great leader. he's fair. as you may know by now, when you're talking, he will punch back ten times harder.
no matter who you are, man or a woman, he treats everyone equal. he's a fighter and if you elect him to be your president, he will fight for you and our country. he will work for you and with you. together, we will make america strong and great again. thank you. >> so beautiful. she said do you mind, i wrote something. do you mind if i say it? i said not at all. i said should i read it. she said i don't want you to read it. >> get them out of here.
thank you very much. i want to thank melania for that. wisconsin is a really special place. we've been all over today. speeches all over. we had one before. thousands and thousands of people standing outside of an airplane hangar because the hangar was packed. we had another one in the morning and it's been an amazing day. some phenomenal results. you see what's happening with the polls. boom, like a rocket ship. it's like a rocket. i guess i just heard when i walked in one just came out that we're ten points up. don't worry about that. pretend you didn't hear that. go out and vote tomorrow. go out and vote tomorrow. i used to say this to politicians, pretend you're a little bit behind.
that way you work hard. you never forget. there's somebody that was -- >> all right. melania trump introducing donald trump, which is rarity on the campaign trail. we should note, that's a distinct out liar. that's an arg poll. it's had a pretty rough cycle. the real clear politics, polling average does so cruz in the lead. joining me now michael steele, former rnc chair. conserative columnist. let me start with you. talk to me about your sense of the effectiveness of the various sort of conservative institutions that have lined up and coalesced around a never trump message here in wisconsin. >> that's been part of the equation. you've had talk radio who, for months and months, have been hammering away at trump. if i may be so humble, i have been as well.
we're kind of a different breed here in wisconsin where over the last few years, given scott walker and all the act ten, the union stuff going on, everybody kind of coalesced around what actually conservativism is. not this vulgar of populism or whatever donald trump is selling right now. >> your thoughts. who gets to say what it is. what's interesting is you're seeing national review and a lot of commentators, people at cpac trying to read trump out of movement. a very significant portion of that party's base likes donald trump's, don't they get a definitional say over what conseratiism is. >> who is that to chris? >> that's for christian.
>> i'm sitting here waiting. yyu heard trump bring up scott walker and he got booed. you heard him bring up paul ryan and you heard him get booed. i'm not sure what is going on with the trump campaign. these people are completely different thing than the conservativism that we've seen here in wisconsin. on the other hand, you see a supposed surge from ted cruz. let's not kid ourself, a lot of that surge is in large part because people are really dropping out. a lot of conservatives i've been talking to say they are voting for ted cruz almost as a term of their probation almost. it's not that ted cruz is all that popular. it's he's the one that can stop donald trump. >> michael, christian just mentioned paul ryan of
wisconsin. probably one of the most powerful republicans in the country, if not the most powerful republican in the whole country. so much paul ryan speculation floating around. ted cruz sort of taking a vailed threat at that or shot saying no chance for a white night. what do you make of all this in. >> i think ted cruz and donald trump will have a lot to say about that and they're supporters will. i think it's a little bit fanciful to think someone would get the nomination who is not run for the job in this cycle. the discounting of john kasich at this point is almost disrespectful to the extent if he's able to swing up into the northeast and pull some votes there, he's going to still walk into that convention with the third most delegates and will be
a factor to be reckoned with. need to have reality check. you have two big candidates who very strong personalities with very, very strong and vocal base support who are not just going to go into that good night because paul ryan is the alternative choice by the coch brothers or anybody else. this thing will be a battle royale and it's one reince priebus doesn't want to have play out. he's got to let this process unfold and as cleanly as possible. otherwise, it's a mess. >> christian, how well regarded, powerful is reince priebus? >> he's well regarded. he was swept into office with scott walker and paul ryan and everything that was going on in
2010. i think he's very well regarded. the position he's been taking that everything is just fine and dandy, it's a pretty interesting situation right now. yeah, you've read in politico a lot of people in wisconsin, republicans are just trying to get to that convention with trump not having enough debt gaits. if you have cruz and kasich, all not having enough delegates then you have three guys to have the stain and odor of not having one. a fresh face might be the one person that can bring everybody together. if you hand it to cruz and trump had the most delegates then that splits the party right in half. a fresh face could kind of be kind of -- could bring everybody together as much as possible. >> i don't know how that brings everybody together. i don't know how fresh face is
going to just take votes from ted cruz and donald trump. good luck with that. i don't see that playing itself out the way people would like to draw it up. you have three individuals that have gone to this convention, contested. they will contest that vote. they will negotiate the terms of engagement. they'll have the bodies on the committee, the relevant committees on the platform as well as the rules committee. they're going to be the ones to set the terms here, not anyone outside of that system. >> all right. thanks for joining me. coming up, we'll have much more live coverage from here in wisconsin where, as we mentioned, ted cruz, donald trump, bernie sanders all holding rallies in this hour. we'll check in on those. our interview with susan sarandon caused a stir. i got to talk to clinton supporter and he did not hold back in his opinion of the sanders campaign and his supporters. you'll want to watch what he has to say. it's happening right after this break. don't go anywhere.
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if we win here, we'll have a bounce going into new york state where i think we can win. if we win in new york state, between you and me, i don't want to get hillary clinton more nervous than she already is. she's already under a lot of pressure. don't tell her this. i think we win here, we win in new york state, we're on our way to the white house. >> we're awaiting senator bernie sanders to appear before a crowd in milwaukee, he made the last minute appeal to voters. the latest real clear politics shows sanders with a three-point lead over clinton ahead of tomorrow's primary. this as reporting on front page of the new york times reveals the sanders campaign confronting reality with the pledge delegate lead. run a more aggressive campaign from the jump. to not attacking secretary of
state use of private e-mail when she had that position. meanwhile, new york times columnist suggested the campaign has gone too negative. quote, the problem is if it doesn't work sanders will have spent a couple of months validating republican attacks on the nominee and if he pulls off an upset alienating lots of progressives. clinton is looking ahead of wisconsin to new york's primary in two weeks. clinton was at multiple events. she questioned sanders commitment to the democratic party. >> i also believe it's important that we elect more democrats. i would love to see the senate go back to being democratic instead of having republicans -- >> you don't think he can do that? >> who won't do their constitutional obligation. i'm helping to fund democratic campaigns.
>> joining me now, democratic strategist james carville. james, let me ask you this. as someone who is a veteran of a lot of democratic party elections, what have you learned by the enduring appeal of bernie sanders this late into the primary schedule. >> i'm older. you have to explain to me. we've had two enormously successful democratic administrations. president clinton and administration of president obama. we've had a disasterous republican administration in the middle of all this. the republican party is cracking up right in front of our eyes. about 47% of the democratic party answer to this is let's nominate somebody that's not a democrat. it makes no sense to me. somebody will have to explain it. in terms of foreign policy area acendent.
>> you're surprised by sanders performance. >> i'm more than surprised. i'm vexed by why two successful presidency, why would the democrats nominate someone who is not a democrat. i'm a little vexed at some level. to me, it really doesn't make any sense. from everything that i see from our own polling to other polling, the republican party has likely to fracture. we have a chance to ccomplish things that we only dreamed of in terms of health care and terms of financial regulation and climate and terms of economic growth and terms of foreign policy and isis. i don't really understand why don't we just go out and do them.
>> well, part of the argument is that folks that do back sanders will make is there's a kind of deeper problem, right, structurally about the construction of money and politics, the way the system, as a whole works. the degree of representation of order and what benefits they have seen from economic growth. isn't that a message that the democratic party at large will be hearing? >> i think so. if you look at incomes during the '90s when president clinton was there they went up. you're starting to see real job growth. you're seeing something like 20 million people that didn't have health insurance have it before. the argument we want to have. did you take campaign contributions from somebody who worked for an oil company. it's ridiculous. i mean, i think that secretary clinton has put out very detailed plans on reform, on wall street reform, on manufacturing, on isis and everything else.
i mean, look, nothing is perfect in this world. if you look at the last two democratic administrations, boy, i mean it's been some real sense of accomplishment here. there's real accomplishment. we're going to throw that out over the side and turn to some hybrid socialism or something. i don't buy it. i really don't buy it. i'm obviously sort of passionate about it. i understand these people have a point to do. we don't need a revolution right now. we need to get really top people on the issue supreme court, which president obama has appointed. we need to push through the climate regulations that's been instituted by the president. is dodd-frank perfect? no. can we do more? of course. look at the health care plan. we're something like 95% of people insured. why dismantle that?
it doesn't make any sense. >> let me ask you a question on politics here. i was looking at a fascinating chart of the net favorability or unfavorability. donald trump is setting all kinds of records in that. number two, behind him is hillary clinton who is unfavorables, broadly speaking, are relatively high. the last candidate as high as bill clinton in '92. should that worry democrats? >> when they started every lie to the wall street journal editorial page to ken starr, to benghazi committee that the stated effect was to drive her numbers down when none of it amount to anything. then you have senator sanders piling on this. what do you expect? the media and republican party have pile on all this stupidity which never amounts to anything.
is it possible this would have the effect that the trey gowdy and company the desired effect? i think it has. her campaign will see over a period of time. i've been going through this since 1992 when i started the whole thing. why are democrats piling on the trey gowdy, ken starr drudge message. i have no idea why. if you go out, after all this piling on, we've knocked ten points off of her favorable. wow wee chick-a-dee. >> thank you. >> thank you, you bet. is donald trump get out maneuvered by cruz in the scramble for convention delegates? amazing new strategy from the
real issues that we face, and that is what this campaign is about. truth number one, unpleasant but true. today in america we have a corrupt campaign finance system which is undermining american democracy. democracy is not a complicated process. it means everybody has one vote, majority plurality wins. what it does not mean is billionaires should be able to buy elections.
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decide this entire primary, will decide this nomination. i am here asking for you to stand with us, to elect delegates who are supporting me to stand with us together because if republicans unite, we win. >> donald trump and john kasich spent much of their weekend here campaigning here in wisconsin, ted cruz had a different idea. he decided to travel to fargo, north dakota to make an inperson pitch to the much coveted delegation. gop delegates are unique. they could vote for anyone in the first ballot of the rnc. ted cruz wanted to make sure they were filled with slots of people loyal to him. cruz made an appearance at the vent headlining the convention on saturday night. the efforts paid off with dividends.
the cruz campaign identified 18 of the 25 delegates voted on as supporters. only one of the 25 delegates signalled he might back trump. now, what happened in north dakota is not entirely unique has county and state conventions across the country. cruz campaign is out hustling and organizing trump and they show no signs of letting up. really makes you wonder if the trump campaign has the skills, capacity and wherewithal to win the nomination they will need. trump's campaign employed about a dozen people. hillary clinton has 765. he buys ads.
when he does he likes to write them himself. the cruz campaign has been working behind the scenes for six months. trump hired his first add visor. >> again, just published that great profile on the unorthodox trump campaign. this is the real question. you've got such a small staff, first of all. the people that are the closest to him are not. these are not super seasoned political operatives in any way shape or form. they're going into a battle about media publicity. it's at the sort of blocking and tackling at the grandular level of winning delegate by delegate. do they have the capacity to do that? >> it's clear the team that trump has around him was very good at getting him this far, but suddenly he finds himself engaged in trench warfare. he flies in and does these huge
rallies but that's not going to get him the delegates to peel off the people in cleveland. he's confronted that. the question is it too a little too late. he's in the race to catch up in this delegate fight. >> one of the other things i thought was interesting is the relationship with trump and roger ales of fox. you talk about a sort of acrimonious departure of one of his top's lieutenant and trump's role in that exit. tell me that story. >> it's fascinating. this helped me connect the dots to figure out why trump seemed to do something that in other republicans had been done which is to go up against fox news with impunity. what i learned is that in 2013
when roger fired his long time pr confidante who was privy to secrets, donald trump learned all the dirt he was going to spill as he played mediator. he knows things he doesn't want in publish. roger is not turned over fox news's air waves to attack trump. >> is your supposition that the knowledge that donald trump has, the dirt he has has acted as a shields throughout this campaign in terms of the coverage he's getting from the network. >> it's important to point out trump say i'm using this against roger. he did tell me he mediated this. the dirt was very damaging and so it just stands to reason that all these parties know what trump knows. that explains why he's been able to get this far with attacking ales.
he did tell me he mediated this. the dirt was very damaging and so it just stands to reason that all these parties know what trump knows. that explains why he's been able to get this far with attacking ales. >> in the time you spent with that campaign, do you have a sense it's a machine capable of learning, which so to say they've had unexpected success of what they have been doing. do they have the wherewithal to alter it? >> it is a remarkable story that this band of outsiders have been able to end this political establishment. look how far that got him. now you point towards the real question. can they change? i report in my piece that donald
trump has been told repeatedly by people in his inner circle, including jeff sessions to lay off the personal attacks and stick to the issues. there was an illuminating interview where he walked back and admitted mistakes which the world donald trump and mistakes you don't utter in the same sentence. we've seen possibly a course correction. i think it will be difficult to pivot because he's been donald trump for four decades this public life. this is who he is. >> thanks so much for joining me. >> appreciate it. unanimous decision at the supreme court. that's ahead. jay knows how to keep his wheels spinning. nice shorts, dad... they don't make 'em in adult sizes? this is what the pros wear. look at the lines... -uhhh... look at the other line... -mm-mhh..
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something rare happened at the trump rally in milwaukee tonight. let's go right to msnbc national correspondent who is outside that trump rally. what's the scene been like there? >> reporter: i'll tell you what, chris, there's a lot going on tonight. just not outside this trump rally. there's a barricade here. you see police vehicles. the beginning of the week, i'm in jamesville and there were protests and rallies. we went out to the western side of the state in lacrosse and the scene was much different. it was relatively quiet this terms of protesters. it's really cold tonight. it's chilly.
you have bernie sanders around the corner. it's 28 degrees outside. it's very cold. it's kind of a daunting ask to have folks out here protesting. again, besides the fact there aren't any protesters out here, we've seen the lines at the trump rallies stretch down the block in the thousands. they were clustered in small groups. it's quiet out here. >> stay warm. it's really cold. it's brick out there as we used to say. we'll break down the stakes of tomorrow's primary, just ahead. t between you and life's beautiful moments. with flonase allergy relief, they wont. most allergy pills only control one inflammatory substance. flonase controls six. and six is greater than one. flonase changes everything.
court. a big win for liberals. in an 8-0 decision, the court maintained states must count all residents when drawing up legislation districts rather than facing the districts on eligible voters. changing the one person, one vote principle could have disenfranchised areas with large populations of non-voters like children or immigrants who cannot legally vote. as the new york times pointed out it could have shifted power from city to rule areas. as the framers of the constitution and the 14th amendment comprehended representatives serve all residents not just those eligible or registered to vote. joining me associate director, council of the naacp legal defense fund urging states to count total population. what does this ruling today mean? >> it means so much for this democracy. today was a big victory indeed.
it means states can continue to do what they have been doing for well over five decades. states can continue to count all residents as part of any and every electoral district whether it's a school board election. everyone in the state should count not just those who are eligible to vote because, as you point out, that would exclude 75 million children, 13 million of whom are african-american and there are many other groups that would have been excluded and those historically excluded from voting and representative. what today's ruling means is the court recognizes we should have an inclusive democracy. we are, indeed, a representative democracy which means that everyone should be represented not just those who are eligible voters. >> that makes sense. that seems straightforward. this has been the status quo for a long time. who brought this case to try to make it not so?
>> you had two voters from rural districts in texas. you had -- they were white voters. they brought this suit with the encouragement, i should say, of a gentleman by the name of ed bloom who has been behind several supreme court challenges to take down tried and true principles of our constitution and try to spend back to a retrograde error of discrimination. you had two plaintiffs put up to the task of trying to bring down a principle of our democracy that's been in place for decades and served us well, that merely every state and local legislature relies upon for its redistricting. these plaintiffs were trying to shift the power from cities and suburbs to rural districts, and they lost. >> thanks so much for illuminating that.
next, according to donald trump, the race is over if he wins wisconsin. there's still lots of states to vote. that's when we come back. my belly pain and constipation? i've heard it all. eat more fiber. flax seeds. yogurt. get moving. keep moving. i know! try laxatives. been there, done that. my chronic constipation keeps coming back. i know. tell me something i don't know. linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation
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18 go to the statewide winner. the rest are allocated in groups of three. trump has 750 delegates at hand. he needs a little more than 500 to secure the nomination. it seems unlikely. he would still need to win more than half the remaining delegates to secure the nomination. these are the states that have yet to vote with the most delegates up to grab. polls have shown trump with massive lead. on june 7th, the last day of the primary comes the biggest prize. california, where polls show trump up by single digits. ruth, as a wisconsinite, it will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow this terms of this apportionment in the different congressional districts.
is there any reason suspect a win statewide won't transfer equally across the state? >> sure. there's a lot of reason to think that. we're basically part of the rust belt and the southern part of the state. we have rural, northern and western part of the state that very pro-trump. the suburbs of milwaukee. these are different pieces of our state. >> we could see a situation where the different performance, trump does lose the state. i've been playing around at 5:38. they put together can you get trump to 1237 simulsimulator. these ro -- projections have him so close to the number.
>> i don't think it makes any difference to the people who are trying to deny him the nomination. if he finishes a thousands votes short or five, they're still going to do it. >> do you think that have the wherewithal? is like is there fight this these people? >> i think the fight is there. i think the organization is gone. the organization is kindergarten recess. everybody has their own agenda. nobody will get out of the way of the party to pick paul ryan or john kasich or mitt romney. if you're going to deny the nomination to trump and a member of what i call the republican establishment, ted cruz. together enough to shove two people out of the way. >> it feels like it's getting a bit chippy.
it felt heated. is that the way it played out on the ground here in wisconsin. >> there's a lot ov talk now about bernie sanders finally being more critical of hillary clinton which he really resisted for a long time. he had some laugh lines on the speeches i've seen here where he talks about they must have been great speeches. that line of attack took him a little while in the beginning. they have been doing that for a while. >> he's still talking about this very idealistic optimistic message. he's hitting harder on this thing that hillary is just not bringing that. she's saying we got to settle for what we can get. he's saying we got to dig deeper and think about what's possible. i think to students in wisconsin in particular, i don't think it's so much negativity. it's more saying this is not so impossible. 50 years ago college was free at universities across the country. tuition was so low.
we could do it then. we can do it now. let's think about what is really possible. >> the fundamental dynamic which is not what i would anticipate which is it feels blocked into equilibrium. it's not the majority of the voters and the democratic primary. it's hard to see way he creates a majority. you still end up with situation it's like 55% a and 44% and what the democratic party does is the big question. >> they ought to be able to put it together. they ought to see this as an opportunity and not a catastrophe like the other side. bernie sanders is raising some serious issues. the democratic party should figure that out. my experience of the democrat party is they're not real good at figuring stuff out.
>> that really does become the question as this goes further. i don't see, it's very hard to carve out the path for him to win in pledge e delegates unless something big happens in terms of a big blow out win. >> they won six out of seven. they really need to win big in wisconsin. >> when we say big, they need 40-point victories in places because the apportionment system of the democratic side, you don't have the winner take all shots. it's like a basketball team go in the second half and tie. >> there's part of that argument that's not math. it's momentum. when they say momentum they're talk about an emotional context. they're saying this hillary clinton is not winning. she's supposed to be the big winner. they're talk about this argument to voters that the democratic party should be the vehicle for something more idealistic. i think that is really what they're saying. they're talk about changing
politics. >> i thought he did something interesting at the rally i went to in madison. we talk about nationalizing local elections. he's localizing a national election. he's taking off after scott walker. >> clinton also went on that. interesting to see how it checks out. thanks for being with me tonight. that is "all in" for this evening on a beautiful and cold and snowy day. the rachel maddow show starts now. appreciate it. thanks to you at home for joining us. speaking of snow, this was the view from my driveway. that's also ridiculous for what is supposed to be opening day of baseball season. it's supposed to be spring. the dogs love it. i'm sure the snowplow drivers are delighted. there's that.