tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC April 5, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
♪ at the top of another hour it's time to look at what is quickly becoming and has been all night a sizable ted cruz victory in wisconsin. now, politics being politics, they've already been some people saying, no, no, no, it's a trump loss in wisconsin, not a cruz victory. that check mark says projected winner so we'll go with that. ted cruz, 50% over 33% for trump with that percentage in and bernie sanders and enjoying a
victory in wisconsin. we have just heard from him in laramie, wyoming and the larger message is we're going to california. >> that's rye. the bernie sanders campaign has this one great and absolutely unexpected structural advantage which is that even though he's running as this complete outsider, as somebody who was only part of the democratic party for a hot minute once he started running he's the former socialist mayor of burlington, vermont, he is floating through in campaign on a sea of money. he's got 6 million individual contributions from more than 2 million people and whenever he wins and even when he doesn't, those numbers just go up and up and up. he's had two consecutive months over $40 million and can stay in as long as he wants. all other campaigns to some degree are limited by money. his never will be. and as long as he and hillary clinton keep trading, you know, six state, you win six state, i win six, the contest will survive as long as he's there.
>> so good to see everybody getting along in the interim and steve kornacki is tracking the math of this which is after all the delegate count which can be a moving target. >> we've been talking all night, 1,237, the magic number. donald trump has to hit that to avoid the contested convention so every delegate counts out of wisconsin, let's tell you what we see right now in terms of how they'll be distributed. ted cruz wins the state. now, remember, this, there's 42 overall. what does that mean? it means he gets 18. 18 is the statewide winner, a "c" there, 18. what we have to do to get the rest of these, though is look in the congressional districts. if you win the congressional district you get three delegates so how are those breaking down tonight? getting different amounts of voting in from them but a pretty good sense ted cruz run ago way with it in the first district, running away with it in the fifth, sixth and do not have votes out of the fourth, milwaukee, but given his
overwhelming strength in this area we'd expect that probably to go to cruz and a solid cruz here in eighth. looks like there are five districts where ted cruz has solid or commanding leads or at least a potentially one, five times three, 15, 33 delegates if that holes and also have returns coming in from the 7th. donald trump is leeing there. returns from the 3rd, donald trump is leading in the 3rd so from trump's standpoint if that holes that would be 6 and the wild card right now about half the vote is in in the 2nd district around madison, 1,000 vites right now in that district separate ted cruz who is running in first place from donald trump. so for trump right now the best case scenario out of wisconsin would be he comes back in the second, he holes on in these two districts and gets 9 delegate, the worst case scenario he can't come back in the 2nd and loses his small leads in the 3rd and 7th and gets zero.
>> steve, can i ask you about that madison congressional district. >> yes. >> we had talked earl yier abou john kasich maybe able could get delegates out of wisconsin even though he doesn't get a win. is he contention. >> the short answer is no. you're looking at ted cruz's margin and what's happening. yes, there was polling in the last couple of days that showed kasich in striking distance in this district and in this area. if he would win it, he would get three. he's running in third place right now. he's getting about 21% of the vote in this district so he's not in contention to win it however that is more than double or at least double what he's getting everywhere else and i think that's one of the big stories we're seeing in the returns tonight. that is this, john kasich was polling in the low 20s. heading into tonight. his support collapsed. in the last couple of days and looks like it went solidly overwhelmingly to ted cruz. so ted cruz benefitinging from john kasich collapsing the polls. when you have cruz out there
saying, look, i need kasich out of the way, what we're seeing in wisconsin tonight in a way validates that at least in this state. >> steve kornacki at the board. thank you, steve. for audiences joining us this hour, we want to repeat what is kind of gaining attention and that is the statement from the trump campaign tonight after losing in wisconsin, they said this "diane-month-old j. trump withstood the onslaught of the establishment yet again, lyin' ted cruz had the governor of wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts and the entire party apparatus behind him, not only was he propelled by the anti-trump super pacs spending countless millions of dollars on false advertising against mr. trump, but he was coordinating with his own super pac's which is illegal who totally control him. ted cruz is worse than a puppet. he is a trojan horse being used
by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from mr. trump, we have total confidence mr. trump will go on to win in new york where he holds a substantial lead in the polls and beyond. mr. trump is the evenly candidate who can secure the delegates needed to win the republican nomination and ultimately defeat hillary clinton or whomever is the democratic nominee in order to make a america great again." which brings us to our reporters assembled in the newsroom because both the trump and clinton campaigns are down for the night with no scheduled remarks. we have a nice confluence of having a lot of the men and women of nbc news with us including peter alexander who is part of the traveling effort to cover the trump campaign. peter, sometimes as you know you can tell a statement that's been dictated from a statement that's been formulated. what do you make of this one. >> well, i think it's fair to use the same language donald trump is using here. he talks about this trojan horse
idea this is the trojan horse that's the party bosses trying to make sure that ted cruz gets a hold of this thing. the same language by the way that donald trump used when speaking about syrian refugees being the vehicle for isis to enter this country. critics obviously tonight are capitalizing on the idea this sort of demonstrates the sore loser status of donald trump that he views a loss in effect as being something being stolen from him tonight. >> and, chuck todd, same question to you. >> well, look, and that's what we were going to talk about here. nicolle wallace and i were having that earlier about this idea. she believed that trump was going to recalibrate some things and people around him. nothing about this statement says recalibration. right. nothing about this statement and this is more about mast performance indicative of future behavior and i think this is not a guy that you see pivoting toward presidential like more of
a traditional presidential like thing. you don't see a candidate ready to pivot to being try fog unite the party and above it all you wouldn't use lyin' ted. barbara, help me out. what does the next three days look like for donald trump let alone the next two weeks. >> i've been reading this. it's not just about lyin' ted and trojan horse but party bosses and talking about stealing the nomination. making statements that will alienate him. the next few days, california, later in lyle. >> is he still going to try to go to colorado? ther)e was some talk with all these different places for the unbound delegates, i know that there was some talk that he would actually do a surprise visit to colorado, sort of what cruz did with north dakota. >> what i hear from ed brookover and other people in the trump campaign running the delegate selection, they are trying to
revamp their delegate outreach. you got pennsylvania where people could be unbound going into the first ballot and have to bring in maul mani. for to help out. and they're talking about new advisers it's about the convention. >> what you get from that, this meeting with reince priebus last friday in d.c. did not go well, there is no agreement with trnc and he's going to be fighting the rues and coming out so strong li saying this is a steal looking forward to the convention when conventions as priebus has said they always write their own rules and delegate selection matters. >> he attacks the party bosses so much, i wonder is reince priebus going to put out a statement condemning what he said. >> when you talk to officials within the rnc there's a lot of concern about what is going to happen. how is the party going to be united? i had a top republican just e-mail me moments ago and say,
we're pulling our hair out because if, in fact, trump does become the nominee, we think hillary is very beatable. that's one of the reasons they're struggling. >> every signal from the rnc is that they keep pulling back, keep pulling back and do not want to confront him now. >> the bottom line, break down what happens after this. at the end of the day delegate matters more than momentum and what happens, the two weeks from now basically on april 19th there's 95 delegates and we all still believe that trump could get all of those. there's 267 more delegates before the end of this month. the anti-trump forces telling me there was a private meeting held behind closed doors here in donald trump's hometown, backyard, new york city where they met to make sure they brought together big money donors to have the resources going forward but there are a lot of delegates for the next -- for the remainder of this month for all intents and purposes could be in donald trump's -- >> chuck, if he doesn't get the magic number they won't give it
to him. they'll argue, look, it's like passing a bill. like passing a bill. if you don't have the votes you don't have the votes. >> this is the first test for trump with the shrunken field no even leftover marco rubio absentee voters. i did a little math. >> this is good. >> his number, tonight, is number likely in wisconsin is going to be about 37%. 37% is a lewing number for donald trump tonight by almost 10 points 37% was a winning number for him in michigan, robert costa. in fact, 37% would have been a winning number -- was a winning number for him in accept of his victories. he didn't break 37%. tonight, shrunken feel, a losing number. >> is that not what we're seeing? >> scott walker's home state. he is the one that predicted it. >> the question is why. when you talk to people who are in the trump orbit, it's the collapse of kasich because a lot of those kasich voters are not migrating to trump. you thought trump was winning the rust belt voters. the place i paid attention to
3rd district, sean duffy, that's ron kind, the democratic district so getting some democratic voters and 7th up in the northwest, sean duffy more of a rural district. >> 3rd donald trump was there a couple of days ago in lacross. >> this is the end of kasich. the collapse tonight shows -- >> pennsylvania. >> pennsylvania he -- >> beauty contest. you don't -- delegates are a different way you go about it. >> and he calls it home. >> to andrea's point, republicans supporting him and staying in tonight are -- >> kasich's people put out a statement, of course this, is how they cast it tonight's revolt -- results, excuse me solidify the fact that no candidate will have -- get to cleveland without with with 1,237 bound delegates and say all the more reason because ted cruz won for us to go to cleveland. >> interesting, kasich wants the headline to be trump lost tonight and not cruz won. >> right. >> and is your lead tonight,
robert cast that with karen and the great team at the post, trump lost, not cruz won. >> not just trump lost but the law of physics and politics finally seems to be applying to donald trump and the question is, if he bounces back in new york, how much does he have to win by to really reclaim momentum? what does new york mean? he'll have a big crowd tomorrow on long island but it's the longest two weeks of his campaign. every time he stumbled before next day big week of news. >> this is 14 case of waiting. >> never had that. >> the media market, new york, hometown, he's got huge advantages in new york. especially against someone like tetd who is not going to play well go we talked about what trump might do. how about druz? what does he do? look, when you have a big victory, what do you have lined up? we know there are going to be some more anti-trump republicans that come out of the closet. right, that have been hiding in there, afraid of being -- you would assume is cruz, does he have something lined up because you want to keep some momentum going what do we think.
>> one of the things that cruz has is something that he has never had before which is sort of these establishment figures or for the first time are not starting to block him. >> congratulated him on winning and said this is great, we've now denied him -- the nomination. he's excited there is a contested convention. thought that cruz is winning. [ all talking at once ] >> none of you will win. >> the change, they're not blocking him in the same way and i think that that allows him to come into new york and these other states. >> who and how many of them come on board. >> you listen to that speech. i think so much about cruz has always been does he have the relationships in washington but he is maturing as a public figure. finally the field is narrowed and seems to be assuming the mantel of true conservative in a way he hasn't before and the question is question sustain that? can he really become a figure on the right that's bigger than just the man of the shutdown. >> he's got to win somewhere -- he's going to have to win in one of these northeastern states like he -- >> philly suburbs.
>> i was just going to say, to me pennsylvania might be a better shot for him than you realize. especially if the kasich collapses -- >> you made the point. john kasich is from pennsylvania. let's remember. he has a great affinity. been the ohio governor and spent a lot of his life there. first 18 years and took me to mckees rocks outside pittsburgh. he wants to stick around to go back home. >> second amendment is a huge issue in pennsylvania, one of the issues statewide that defeats democrats and republicans. >> the pride of penn right here. >> if you other exit poll numbers that jump out. this idea 38% of wisconsin republicans described a trump presidency as scary. you don't get that. it's 11 -- >> 20%. >> said they're concerned. a majority -- you have a majority of republicans that say they're either scared or concerned by the idea of a trump presidency. >> this is -- this is a more devastating night for donald trump than i think even his campaign has fully understood. anyway, brian, rachel, back to you guys. >> these are actually the
conversations that take place around here. we were just able to listen in on one of them and watch the pizza arrive in the background which is proof that we are in a newsroom. we'll take a break. >> we're in the wrong one. that's exactly light. >> all this talk of an open convention. all this talk about changing the rules, the man who wrote the rules and may end up doing it again. will join us after this. they found out who's been hacking into our network.
who? guess. i don't know, some kids in a basement? you watch too many movies. who? a small business in china. a business? they work nine to five. they take lunch hours. like a job? like a job. we tracked them. how did we do that? we have some new guys defending our network. new guys? well, they're not that new. they've been defending things for a long time. [ digital typewriting ] it's not just security. it's defense. bae systems.
19 minutes after the hour. if you were with us at the start of the evening we talked about our political units' calculation of the three ms as our guidepost to watching the coverage. whatever happened tonight, momentum, math and the map. and all three have proven true. we've been talking about all three of them all night. steve kornacki is at the map with the math. so that's two out of three right now. >> we're talking about that path
to 1,237 for donald trump. what is tonight's loss in wisconsin do to complicate that for him? let's take you throughout and give you a scenario where we go through the rest of the contests after tonight looking at they will on the screen right now and donald trump does clear the magic number. not a prediction but seeing this is what it would take so after tonight it looks like he'll be roughly at 760. what does he need to do? next state up, new york. big favorite. did he get 80 of those 95. if he does, he sits at 840. that's very much within his reach. take a look through the rest. the northeast. and loose definition of northeast. we'll throw west virginia, maryland in there too. if he does really well here, the way he is supposed to do, if he's not too hurt he could come out of that with 1015 as his total out of the northeast. if he got a narrow win in indiana and added 30 to that he's sitting at 10456789 if he could then go out to the west coast or california, the pacific coast and get 17 asitting at
1,220. 1,237 is the magic number. take nebraska, south dakota, montana off the board. these look like cruz states and they're winner take all. that would leave new mexico if trump is sitting at 1220. he could do just well enough to get over the top and tweak a couple other ones. what you see, though, it is a very tight, very narrow path for donald trump. it exists but a lot of things have to go his way and losing wisconsin tonight didn't help in oh, man, that looks like the movie "it's a beautiful mind." that's a lot of math and you put all that math in a bag and put it over your shoulder and go to cleveland, ohio and what do you do with it at the other end and what does the republican party and the convention do about the competing interests? two gentlemen have joined our panel who would like to weigh in. lawrence o'donnell, you know him, you love him as a member of our own msnbc family of full service show hosts and ben
ginsburg. former general counsel of the republican party and counsel to more than one presidential effort and as they said about edward bennett williams, in this area of law he is the man to see. so, what do you make of this math arriving in cleveland with this many candidates and this many republicans who fear there should be a better way? >> we've never been here before. and what it puts such a premium on is the delegate select process. steve ran through the math on how people will amass delegates for the first ballot but you don't know who those delegates are and you don't know how they're going to vote until they start voting. for example, the rule says you have to have a majority. to win, it's subject to amendment like the other -- is there hold up. really? >> yes. it is in the rules of the convention that can be changed. they could make it a plurality.
>> they could make it a plurality. >> could be a plurality. by the way it could be a supermajority. >> and change those rules before each ballot. >> in fact -- >> there are no rules, right. go back to the real point. there are no rules. >> the real point is these -- >> no rules that can't be changed. >> these delegates, well they're not rules there but own lip out there as the starting point but these delegates have to make an affirmative decision on what to do. even if that is just saying we're going to take the 2012 rules and make them the 2016 rules. >> it's the rues committee the week before that decides this? >> well, they -- >> member a recommendation. it goes to the convention. you have to deal with all the credentials challenges then the same rules committee goes back into session, is the permanent ones, they make the recommendation to the convention. and then there are minority rule. >> then the convention votes and then they have -- presumably there has to be a majority vote
by the convention delegates. >> it is majority if 25% file a minority report then this gets debated on the floor. >> ooh. >> and i have the very beautiful rule 40 from the last convention right here. which by the way says you have to win a majority of the delegates of eight states in this -- >> to be nominated. >> which ted cruz has not done yet but is maybe on his way to doing. you and i discussed backstage a little while ago this much more interesting line that follows this. before you have any delegates at all under your name at this convention, listen to this. a certificate evidencing the affirmative written support of the required number of permanently seated delegates from each of the eight or more states that you have won the majority of. must be submitted. i asked, ben, what is this written thing? it's a signature of each one of
these delegates. >> it's a petition. absolutely. >> by the way -- >> affirming. >> at least an hour before the convention has it's first vote and i can't find my delegates to get that signature on that piece of paper then that's not my delegates. >> we're in this world where we're talking about what is conceivable. what could be imagined in a sign fiction world in terms of what could be done with these rules. is that, in fact, the universe of possible -- possibilities here or do you, ben ginsberg think it's politically feasible. >> i believe there are any number of possible permutation, republicans are a neat and order early people. we like these things to come out cleanly, so i think many of these will be up to sort of the moral guidepost that the campaigns put on it and how the delegates feel.
if you've ever been at a convention there is the thing as the mind-set of the delegates that could sort of come up from not logical places, always. and you have to be thinking about that with delegates on the floor in cleveland and sort of mad house a floor could be if we even get to a contested convention. >> in 2012 when we saw the ron paul movement, results in their -- being some very contentious fighting on the floor at some points while digs were being maid, a lot of yelling and screaming and people complaining they were getting manhandled. did that have any effect on digs made? did that change the mind-set of the delegates. >> i think it certainly changed the mind-set of some delegates. there were delegates who, frankly, felt that they got run over in the rules committee. what they didn't do was file that minority report. what they didn't have was a quarter of the rules committee to file the report to force the floor fight and so, part of what we're talking about is who are
those delegates and who are they loyal to on the rules committee? >> one of the reasons we asked ben to join us he used used the term moral guidepost in relation to presidential politics and political conventions. >> i'm a lawyer. >> so that's what those things are. ben, thank you. as always another break for us. we'll be back on the other side.
bottom of the hour. good time to look at the boards. ted cruz the projected winner and then some in wisconsin. inside the political beltway, did cruz win or did trump lose? good luck with that. on the democratic side, bernie sanders was just moments after that call was named the projected winner in wisconsin. this has -- let's wait. we've got 78% in before we characterize the margin but chris matthews is in milwaukee, wisconsin, where the hour grows late and the beverages continue to be served. chris. >> well, as a nondrinker, i appreciate that but i woken up for greatness. thank you, i have chris hayes who i proceed each evening and offer a lead-in of some worth. >> always, chris. >> let's talk about the democrats. talking a lot about trump. hillary clinton seems to have
like -- she's home but the lights are off. nobody is home right now. i got the filing her campaign came in, sleep walking and she just -- say whatever you think. >> here's -- >> she's not leading. >> the most interesting thing to me about the democratic campaign this point is the equilibrium which it's found. we have not seen momentum or consolidation anyway. states that you would democratically predict for bernie sanders are going for bernie sanders. states you would predict go for hillary clinton are going for hillary clinton. what i would have predicted which has not borne out is as you've marched along there would be some kind of consolidation. this has gone on long enough or i'm worried -- >> didn't you three two or three weeks ago it would happen. >> when she won four states a lot were thinking -- >> i think she just did that too. what you just did. >> i think the lesson is sanders, the people for bernie sanders really support bernie sanders and it means we're going to till june 7th no matter what.
>> bernie has the script and adds very little to it every night, pretty much what a nightclub comic has, although he's not a comic. all there and wait for the lines to come in different order. what's gotten him waken up? he seems to think i'll win this damn thing. he's serious. >> some people would call it message discipline. he has certainly had it. one of the things i noticed yesterday i wanted to go to the field offices of all five candidates. trump wouldn't let us in. i went to the other four. i found it very interesting that every other campaign that wasn't bernie sanders, one of their volunteers came up to me and said they admired the enthusiasm and the laser focus of the bernie sanders volunteers that they had run, so we've seen all these huge crowds he's been bringing. why hasn't he translated to to votes in a lot of places. i think what we saw part of in wisconsin.
some of these folks volunteering and in state after state after state but have never done politics before are getting the hang of it and really into it. >> a machine. it's moving. >> and can smell the possibility of victory and organization till counts. >> i think that bernie is acting like a guy that's going to win and talked tonight -- i'm not sure it's totally accurate. he said i'm either one up are one down. the bloomberg poll -- the others are much wider acting like he's in the thick of things. >> what i can't stop thinking about, chris, 0 million have voted on the republican side and democratic side i am sure as equally as many people. at the end of the day the way it might work out for bernie sanders, it may come down to 200 people, unbound delegates or superdelegates on the other side. if that is what american democracy is about and going through all the motion before, i don't know if it's depressing or -- >> is bernie going to pull them out or not?
>> you talk to my hipster friends in silver, lake, yes. >> that's in l.a. >> that 's exactly right. if you think about this process, i don't see it happening. >> political revolution going on. >> in silver lake and in williamsburg, maybe. >> you got to go through first rounds. >> hi. >> bernie is running, the lights are on. he's home. hillary clinton is not to be seen tonight. she took the loss. she just took it like trump took the loss. >> forward retreating. >> when you lose you hide? it's really bad form. >> you tweet congratulations. >> by the way -- >> or a statement like cruz -- >> lyin' ted didn't -- >> steal the nomination with party bosses. what is significant when you look at who the republicans are going after and saw it from the republican party attacking not sanders but hillary clinton again and ted cruz interestingly in his speech you watched in that victory speech he gave went after hillary clinton harder than we've seen him do in the
past and pivoted to her rather quickly. >> his unity button. >> that's what it is. he's trying to prove he's the one that can be the unifier and not donald trump and he can go and bring the party together after what will probably be a raucous contested convention to say the least with your delegates with -- >> how he gets nonstop colorado next week, right. >> what did you think, guys of the polling that came out, the steve showed us tonight. both parties are getting very polarized. i mean really polarized. 80% for the republicans. democrats 60s. vast changes in four years. >> wisconsin is ground zero for the polarization of american politics and have been through the wars here. you had three elections in four years and what you saw on the ground here, i've been watching the protests in brazil. >> scott walker. >> fighting it down. class warfare. it's hot and relentless. >> it's meant that you have people that are really deeply
organized on both sides. tonight this was a hotly contested race for the state supreme court. walker's appointee will win most likely but voters were talking about that race. about a state supreme court race and the reason is that it is like when you watch these protests in brazil and one day the folks supporting the government are out, the next day the folks against the government are out in different color, wisconsin has that feel to it. it's been so polarized by the battles fought here, there are deep and powerful political organizations in place. >> but to make a point to that i spoke with governor walker and did a little one-on-one at the cruz watch party. he made this exact point. that the wisconsin electorate is really engaged because of these recalls and because of the fact that they are -- >> the one party. that one party are reince priebus come in and two party people coming in. paul ryan seems relatively moderate to the parties surrounded by -- right. he could be the next president, this guy. >> sure, but that is the point. you have these ryanesque
conservatives and have somebody like donald trump coming in and sort of blowing up -- >> crashing the party. >> in the home state of wisconsin. the point they will make,er they're engaged and not the case in some of the states we're headed to next. >> something fundamentally changed and that is this. there were a lot in the republican party afraid of donald trump and walking very carefully. >> did you see the people that sided last week -- i bet nose went against him. >> and a lot of people voted for cruz not for cruz, but against donald trump. and i think the message that came out of here tonight especially for the people unsuccessful in their anti-trump efforts is that it can be successful. and the second thing that happened when i talked to donald trump today and any fact i put in front of him whether it was 77% of women have an unfavorable view of him or whether i put in front of him these reports that are widely reported now about how there's unrest within his campaign, when you talk to him about the polls that were out
there that said he was going to take a little bit of a shellacking today and he denied all of them. >> he would. >> the cult of personality -- >> he would. >> but he has been very successful at with just the strength of his personality seeming to make that so. i think we see a little change in that. >> 20% loss. >> in the fear fact. >> let's talk about message on trump. did he finally start saying things he shouldn't say really? >> no, the message to me, what's amazing is that cruz came out there and he gave a process speech about delegates. he talked delegate math for -- why did he do that? the message no longer has anything to do with one thing. what are the numbers to get a contested convention and what are the people in the party who think that trump's nomination would be an extinction event for the republican party going to -- >> why did he do that if we can stop him and once we stop him from getting 1,237 all bet a-r-t-p-o-p off. >> amazing how that's the message. >> that's the message -- >> stop trump. >> i agree with chris.
>> what i look at the process, i was in there. >> you can talk results. >> i was in there with ted cruz in north dakota over the weekend which was an amazing thing to see at the north dakota convention they put all this time and energy going in there not elected by the voters and what ted cruz said is, i said, are these -- this is a democratic process. he said, i don't care basically because what i want are those unbound delegates and i'll take them to the bank. >> we'll get back to a wild set of groups like this around midnight. this is just a warm-up. talking about wild things like -- is this a campaign actually a living thing right now? i think it is. i thought it was until a couple of weeks ago. it has woken up. the american people are paying attention and thinking and they're making decisions which is pretty wild. brian and rhame, back to you. >> it has, chris, maybe not as energized as we tend to be but i have this theory wherever two or more americans gather for a meal or whatever you can discuss the race at the top of the meal, in
♪ yeah, you'll just have to miss it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download... uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. we are back and thanks to our big wall, hillary clinton will be a live guest tomorrow, scant hours from now on "morning joe" among others, as all of the broadcasts on msnbc hit their stride when we have politics to cover. >> like one of those times where i stop dreaming about work because there isn't enough time to sleep to dream before i go back to work? >> for the record she once dreamed about work. we're joined by our family. >> small dream. >> nicolle wallace, lawrence
o'donnell, ben ginsberg, nicolle, this statement by donald trump, we've read it twice in the last couple of hours. >> yes. >> because it is getting a lot of attention and keeping with all aspects of the trump campaign. there's flashes of anger and bitterness and vintage throwback old-style donald trump. >> and, listen, i have been inside campaigns in crisis. you both covered them. you remember on some of them with me. and this statement to me tells the whole story about what i think a lot of us know to be happening inside trump world. there had a tension around donald trump among those who would like him to pull it in a little bit who think his finer moments were moments when he showed he could read from a teleprompter. where the moments where he stood in front of the flags and acted like he was inching towards something we could call more presidential. then there are people who enable trump to be trump and the reason that the people who enable trump to be trump are winning is because trump thinks that being himself is what got him here.
it is very difficult for the other side of this inner circle which is very small to make the case that he should change anything at all because he's had so much success so to me the story tonight is that the people who have not had as much success in trying to him to do things differently have an incredible case study in what was really a collapse among trump -- i asked the trump folks what do you think explains your dramatic fall and collapse in wisconsin? and they said it was the last two weeks. what i'll watch for and what i think we will still talk about two weeks from now whether this loss helps strengthen the people around trump who would like to see him do things differently. obviously they didn't get to him before the statement went sdmrout do we know who the various camps are? >> there's some reporting. robert costa and chuck todd probably talked to some of these folks but it is a small circle around him. so, you know, you can guess -- he keeps his own counsel. he was asked where he comes up with his ideas and who he talked
to on the morning of the brussels attacks. and he said, i have a great mind and i didn't talk to anybody before i called in to the "today" show. he does not take a lot of advice but, you know, he has a tight-knit family. his children are everywhere, surrogates for him and the people that want him to succeed, which is his framily and a very small circle around him, some of them would like to see him do things differently. >> lawrence? >> look, i think there are two dueling statements tonight from each party and the front-runner and each party came in second tonight. donald trump puts out a hate statement. he accuses ted cruz of committing a crime with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. he attacks in his statement -- this is the republican front-runner at least until tonight -- attacks in his statement conservative talk radio show hosts. >> many. >> i think -- he was supposed to attack liberal talk radio hosts but he attacked conservative
radio hosts, the people that helped elect republican politicians. beside it i have hillary clinton's statement tonight. it's a tweet. it is the picture of professionalism and class in defeat. she says congrats to bernie sanders on winning wisconsin. to all the voters and volunteers who poured your hearts into this campaign, forward h her little personal signature and she did that just at about the moment when bernie sanders was taking the stage. you know, donald trump is incapable of that. there is no intervention you can have, no matter who is involved to get him to change this crazy statement into this sensible generous and classy statement that hillary clinton made. that's impossible. that's a brain transplant that is never going to happen. >> on that note, we'll pause our conversation and go to a break
course of hillary clinton in a state's person like statement like congratulating the vic. what difference would that make and how would that bring about a change in the next two weeks. >> it would be the promised change in donald trump. they've talked about doing this. you know, turning and curve nothing a more presidential mode. wisconsin just spent a week trying to teach the guy manners. that's where charlie sykes began on his radio show trying to teach him basic manners. you apologize when your guy touches someone in the crowd who is bothered by -- you say, sorry. you do these basic things. they couldn't -- wisconsin couldn't teach him anything this. statement tonight means he learned absolutely nothing. and, look, when you start as an amateur trying to do anything, you better learn in the process of doing it. he's not learning anything in the process of doing it. >> yet the folks i see on tv say he's just entering his power card now.
>> yeah, i mean, look, it was an amateur campaign at the beginning. we had this report in "new york" magazine a deep look inside the campaign where they openly admitted doing this to build up fame at the beginning. he didn't expect to stay in it long and to stay in it this long there's a bunch of series things you have to do. you have to learn how to sell delegate and know how to find them and go into the states and get them. you have to get the ben ginsbergs out there doing that work. they haven't done it. >> you have to get better at answering questions about foreign policy and this is what never made sense to me. after he announced the muslim ban he did a round of interviews and was asked what would you do about world leaders who are allies in the global war against terror, muslim, would you wave the ban? he doesn't even think through his out outrageous policies and he spends a lot of time on the plane watching the news as i understand instead of sitting around talking to smart people about policy. >> i kept saying everything he was doing was working. and i was always watching that
going, okay, it's working this week to pump up his number within a republican primary and every single one of those things is killing him in a general election. >> my only point, though, this is a whopper of a loss created by him. >> yes. >> if he's going to change it will happen in the next two weeks. >> what happens, it's coming back to new york in two weeks where he's heavily favored. what are we saying two weeks from tonight if he actually wins? >> what do you think he's going to do. >> on tv or at home? into the wine glass in this campaign has shifted all around and this next two weeks is going to be the same thing. >> i would say, i mean right now i feel like one thing that's gone unremarked upon and talked about the quality of the ted cruz campaign. one of the things i think they're great at is distracting people to not talk about things bad for ted cruz. if i was the ted cruz campaign i would not be psyched about competing in new york, new jersey, pennsylvania, rhode island, connecticut. delaware, maryland. i mean, the ted cruz -- that is not a ted cruz map of the world
and that's what's coming. >> right, look at the ironies with the south, front-loading their primary season to be able to shape the nominee and, instead you've got exactly the reverse with the northeast and california coming up. >> and you would have thought that ted cruz would have been able to compete very well in the deep south and instead he got absolutely run through the south. swept in the south by donald trump. >> young girl named dorothy gail from kansas once said people come and go so quickly around here and we say that by way of thank you eugene who is fine. it's just we have a finite number of seats at the desk and occurs to us, people come and go so quickly around here and speaking of that, after this break our coverage continues when we go back to chris matthews in milwaukee. thanks.
well, i'm chris matthews in milwaukee, wisconsin where voters give a nasty swipe at donald trump and delivered a wicked wake-up call to hillary clinton. trump was walloped on the republican side by 20 points with clinton also taking a double digit defeat ripping open for the next two weeks their separate claims to their party's presidential nomination so here's where things stand at this hour tonight. bernie sanders is the projected winner on the democratic side and leads secretary clinton by 12 points. 9 gap is even wider on the republican side as i said, ted cruz was backed by nearly every major eli