tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC April 14, 2016 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
news reporters all over the country who are watching out for them. this story makes me so mad. we'll see you again tomorrow. now lawrence o'donnell's special look inside the stop trump movement starts right now. who knew this was gonna happen? >> who is picking this republican nominee, the delegates or the voters? >> both. >> i'm millions of votes ahead and they never even mention it. they talk about delegates. >> you got to go out and hunt delegates. that's part of what this is about. >> we're supposed to be a democracy. >> what is this democracy of which you speak. >> it's a rigged system. >> it's clearly not. >> these are dirty tricksteres. >> you may have noticed donald is unhappy. >> lying ted. >> you stop the tactics. >> that's a stop word. >> they should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this kind of crap to happen. >> we're going to beat donald in cleveland. >> it will be up to me to
convince the delegation to overrule the voters. >> you have to get the magic number. are you kidding me? >> i said this time we're gonna do it ourselves, okay? these are my people. >> the last word inside the stop trump movement. this is the year of things we've never seen before. we have never seen a self described independent socialist running a very competitive race for the democratic presidential nomination against a woman who began the race as a seemingly unbeatable front-runner and we have never seen a candidate with no experience in government or the military rocket up to the front-runner position for the republican presidential nomination with
nomination. we have never seen anything like donald trump in presidential politics and we have never seen anything like the campaign to stop donald trump. tonight, we're going inside the stop trump movement. there are two choices left on the democratic side, hillary clinton and bernie sanders. and there are four four choices left on the republican side, john kasich, ted cruz, donald trump and stop trump. we have never seen a serious campaign staffed by experienced campaign professionals funded by big political donors aimed entirely at stopping a candidate, just stopping a candidate. and they are trying to stop a candidate within their own party. the front-runner for the republican presidential nomination, we've never seen anything like donald trump in presidential campaigning and we've never seen anything like the opposition to donald trump. everything donald trump has said in the course of this campaign
that helped fuel his rise in the polls has also fueled opposition to him, intense opposition to him within his own party. when he announced his candidacy he was in single digits and his candidacy was considered a joke. when he doubled his position in the polls by talking about building a wall and deporting millions of people, he still wasn't taken seriously by his republican rivals whose first strategy was to ignore them. as he surged ahead in the polls, they could no longer ignore him, but they still could not figure out how to campaign against him as it appeared that no republican candidate was going to be able to stop donald trump, the stop trump movement was born. a campaign without a candidate. a campaign like we've never seen before. joining us now a leader of the stop trump movement ken blackwell former ohio secretary of state who is now a senior
adviser to the stop trump pac. also the man who many credit stopping trump in wisconsin, charlie sykes, whose interview with donald trump changed the campaign dynamics in wisconsin. and steve schmidt who was the senior campaign strategist and joining us from the republican national committee lindsey walters, who is the national spokesperson for the rnc. lindsey, you have a job like no other before you, the rnc is in the center of the storm i just described. it's something no party has had to deal with before. normally the republican party and at this stage the democratic party apparatus are neutral. how do you maintain both that image of neutrality for the party and the belief among republican voters that you really are being neutral when you have one candidate out there
all the time saying it's rigged and the bosses are rigging it. >> the rnc is here to be the facilitator in this process. the primary process and the delegate selection comes down to the individual states and their state party rules and how delegates are allocated is all determined upon what those state party rules say. here we're just to ensure an open, fair and transparent process as we head into the convention and then we come out of the convention with a nominee. >> but the -- with this perception or this argument goes, they're written to confuse and hard to follow, what is your response to that? >> these are rules that were written last year, submitted to the rnc and then made available to all of the campaigns and the candidates. it's up to the individual campaign's candidates and their staff to ensure they understand
this process. this process is huge and you have to understand it and that's on behalf of the campaigns and the candidates to be sure they know the information that's been available since last october. >> ken blackwell, why did you get into the stop trump movement? >> essentially i think the republican party has to be a conservative alternative to the more liberal democratic party. donald trump is not a conservative and he's only recently become a republican. he has supported liberal democratic candidates, including hillary clinton, and so this is a process to establish our principals and to make sure that our standard bear is true to our principals. it's been fascinating to watch the trump campaign. they're using the old billy mart continue go out and harass, get in the umpire's head. so he runs out and he kicks dirt all over the umpire to get in
the umpire's head to try to get the umpire to give him a break sometime later in the game. and that's what he's doing, but there are those of us who have been around the bases a couple of times ourselves and we're going to in fact play by the rule book and we're going to go into cleveland and i think that we're going to stop trump from getting the 1,237 that he needs. >> many credit you with stopping trump's momentum in wisconsin, trump lost that state. it was his opening moment in that wisconsin campaign was with you on your radio show. you were -- it was one of those interviews that i think everyone who heard it really remembers. you simply kept stopping him on everything he said to you that you thought was untrue marking it as untrue. you kind of hung in there with him in that interview and set down the kinds of principals to use in both discussing the issues with donald trump and in
your case trying to stop him in your state. >> well, this is a target rich environment for anyone in the media who questions donald trump because all you have do is drill down on any one of his positions and what you're going to find out that there's no there there. yeah, i mean i do think it's political malpractice that republicans have waited this long to be able to confront the disgrace that donald trump represents. i think they've been out of touch. i think steve is it right when he says that the republican establishment has suffered from after lensesa, but the reality is that the republican party cannot nominate donald trump if it wants to preserve any sort of intellectual integrity. this is one of those threats not just to the conservative movement, not just to the republican party, but to actually -- anyone who follows presidential politics and that's why this -- whether it's a movement or not, why this is not going to go away any time soon.
>> steve, i'm going to ask you as a strategist throughout the program to wear different hats. i'm going to ask you to wear the trump campaign hat and what they should be doing. wear the stop trump hat for a second. when should a stop trump movement have started and if it could have run this whole thing over again what should it have done differently. >> i think there is a profound disconnect in washington, d.c. among the establishment, the leaders of the republican party with regard to the impact of the great recession, the economic collapse on republican voters. so we look in the seventh year of the obama presidency, but we look at that in the context of eight years of a bush presidency and before that wage stag nation for blue collar working americans. haven't seen a wage increase in 20 years. low economic growth. the devastating cultural impact of the great recession as people lost their homes and savings and
retireme retirements. the party has had no policies to remedy it. so sometime when we voted to repeal obamacare, these voters said this is theater. it's play fighting. we have this serverability between conservatism and issues. and the test for conservatives hasn't been on the policy basis that charlie talked about, it's who has fidelity to the person with the rhetoric. if you look at trump's tone in this campaign, this tone shouldn't be surprising to anybody who has listened to talk radio and to some of the most celebrated talk radio hosts in the country over the last 15 years. when mark lee vin has a caller he disagrees with, he told her to find a gun in the house, put
it to her head and blow her brains out. we've seen this coming. the dismantling of the intellectual architecture of the conservative movement has been building over the last decade and more. >> charlie, what's your response to that? steve is taking the stop trump movement back a couple of years. if you wanted to stop trump, you were going to have to start before 2015. >> he's probably right. on the other hand -- by the way, once we stop trump we can go back and do that kind of autopsy. who was responsible for starting this prayerie fire. it's one thing to lose an election, it's another thing to lose your soul. if the republican party nominates donald trump it will change itself for a generation and republican leaders will not be able to walk back from a donald trump nomination and say you know what, we really are a
principaled party and we care about minorities, we care about these ideas that we claim to care about. if they embrace donald trump, they will have shown themselves to be absolutely and completely cynical about all the things they claimed to believe in. now, he's right when he talks about the disconnect between the problems that average working americans have experienced, but this is like treating a heart attack by ebola. the answer to these problems is not donald trump. i think that's where republicans have to make the case. the issues are legitimate. the candidate is not. >> ken blackwell please reply to steve's point there was a policy vacuum in the republican party on economic policy as regards little class interests that donald trump was able to step into. >> i don't think there was necessarily a policy disconnect. i think it was an inability to
deliver on promises even when we had the numbers. i think the policy was there, but the will to follow through was not there and that has created a disruption between the leadership of the party and the base. and so whether or not mr. trump is the solution to it is the issue before us. i don't think that he is and i would agree with everyone who has spoken so far about the threat that mr. trump actually poses to principaled conservative leadership and policies that are under -- that are the underguarding of american exceptionalism. >> normally long before the convention there's a presumptive nominee. who is in position to begin to take control of the convention and decide what's going to happen at that convention, including who is going to speak and when, that sort of thing.
if we do not have a presumptive republican nominee going into the convention, who is in control of that convention? >> so as it's happened every convention prior you will have -- you'll get to the convention the first day and they will meet and elect a temporary chair and once the delegation's in place and they've gone through the committee then they will elect the permanent chair and that's how the process has always been. this convention will be the same way. we're preparing for two scenarios. we have two candidates or we could get up in an open convention. regardless we will be preairpar and this process will go off smoothly. >> thank you very much for joining us and good luck between now and the convention. and charlie sykes, thank you very much. ken and steve will stick around.
more to come on inside the stop the trump movement, what the future means to the republican party. one donald trump and one ted cruz exposupporter will join us. and is donald trump benefitting from the system he calls rigged. ? good. yours? good. xerox real time analytics make transit systems run more smoothly... and morning chitchat... less interesting. transportation can work better. with xerox. thank you for calling. we'll be with you shortly. yeah right... xerox predictive analytics help companies provide a better and faster customer experience. hello mr. kent. can i rebook your flight? i'm here! customer care can work better. with xerox. wait i'm here! mr. kent? bounty is two times more absorbent. more "sit" per roll. so one roll of bounty can last longer than those bargain brands. so you get more "life" per roll. bounty. the long-lasting quicker picker upper.
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correspondent steve kornacki who is going to take a closer look at what donald trump is complaining about. >> he's right. the rules did change last august. last august is when donald trump got in the race, but that's not why they changed the rules. the rules were changed at the behest of grassroots conservatives who were afraid that the republican establishment had too much power. they wanted people willing to show up and give up their weekend for precinct caucuses, and state conventions. that's the process that ted cruz and his supporters used to sweep the delegates on the republican side that were at stake in colorado. you look at it here. 34 delegates have been given up in that state. donald trump got zero. donald trump says that's unfair, but the thing to keep in mind is
all the rules are different in every state. look at south carolina. donald trump won south carolina. he got 33% of the vote. the way they do the delegates, every congressional district, there's seven here, if you win a congressional district you get three delegates from it. donald trump won all the districts. he got all 50 delegates from this state. 100% of the delegates for 33% of the vote. if you look at this, there's a pattern here. donald trump has gotten and you can see he's gotten more delegates. he's gotten about 47% of the delegates given out on the republican side with 37% of the actual vote. so overall these rules vary by state, but overall they've benefitted trump. >> steve schmidt, if you were running the trump campaign on
your to-do list on the calendar, w what would be the separation between the announcement day and the day we started working on our delegate plan. >> nine to ten minutes. it's a complicated process and there's a difference. you need to understand the rules in the hillary clinton campaign against the obama campaign in 2008 when the campaign was launched was very clear the hillary clinton campaign didn't understand the rules around which the democratic nominee was chosen and allowed for barack obama to get ahead. >> when you say that, a professional presidential campaign did not understand the rules about delegates. how can that be? >> it's a communication exercise and it's a votes exercise and a delegate counting exercise. it's the allocation of the delegates. these parties are the
institutions by which we advance democracy in american, but they are not small democratic institutions. so it is not voters who determine who the nominee is, it is delegates. voters pick some of the delegates, but not all of the delegates. and so a campaign must have a strategy to get the requisite number of delegates, 1,237. >> when did the cruz campaign start on the delegate plan? >> he announced at the end of march and june 2nd. they were thinking about it early on. nobody thought in june that we were going to be where we are now in april, but they also held a sort of progress report meeting in december to talk about this. i'm told that when you -- any campaign that starts putting together these organizations
state by state early as the cruz campaign did, you naturally are doing delegate hunting because the people that get involved on an organizational level are the grassroots activists. it's been in the back of the mind from day one and i think the campaign is starting to believe they are seeing the fruits of their labor now. >> katie, yaou've been around te trump campaign from the beginning. when did you first hear the word delegate from anyone in the campaign. >> i think it was january, maybe. maybe february. maybe right when iowa happened and when they realized that they weren't going to get all of the delegates in that state. donald trump's campaign was not a professional presidential campaign. >> it stuns me that the clinton campaign could have made any errors about it and obviously the cruz campaign knew how to do this from the start. >> they were a protest campaign
from the start and they were a protest campaign that took everybody by surprise, including their own candidate. and when he started resonating with voters and when he started building these crowds, the campaign started to realize they needed to build more of a structure around him, but the reality is he was doing so well because there wasn't a structure around him because he was allowed to go be himself. so they didn't anticipate that they were going to need a delegate strategy until i think very recently. they've been projecting for a while that they were going to get 1,400 delegates. early on donald trump said i think this is going to be over soon. they thought this would be over pretty quickly after the states voted. so they've learned that they need to put something in place to woo these delegates.
there's real tension right now because there are those who don't realize the need for delegates and are letting donald trump go out and trash the republican establishment and the delegates are mainly loyal to the republican establishment and there are those that are really ve needing to work on the strategy and the delegates and not the voters. >> i always learn something when steve co knackornacki goes to t board, but when he put up something that showed that the process has helped donald trump more than ted cruz and that the percentage is closer to the percentage than donald trump is, why haven't i heard that from the cruz campaign. >> it's a smaller margin with. who wants to talk about process and rules. ted cruz is a disciplined candidate and he wants to talk about his message. he gets out there every speech and talks about jobs, freedom
and security. so for a campaign to get bogged down into discussing percentages, they want to communicate to folks for simply and this discussion about the rules -- it's tough to see how it would benefit the cruz campaign. it's easy for donald trump to come out and say the system is corrupt. a protest candidate, that's a message for people to relate to. it's a little tougher to get bogged down to the -- >> they are going to say the rules were written a year ago and that's it. >> you heard ted cruz say it's a democratic process. >> steve, the cruz campaign as we know was on this and now it turns out the stop trump campaign is really getting into delegate selection. we had this report this week that was absolutely fascinating that they're phone banking delegates now. they're trying to track down who
be the most friendly delegates to anyone but trump. we've never seen anything like that before. >> we haven't seen anything like it and they're anticipating that donald trump will not the requisite number 1,237. donald trump likely to win big in new york. let's look to california. winner take all by congressional district. not a lot of republicans in max een waters' district. so the campaign that can organize in heavily democratic districts to get a small number of republican votes is able to win those delegates and come out of it. california has about 175 delegates and unless donald trump does very well in california, california will be the state that holds him back from getting to 1,237. so california is a state where the republican party on the basis of its positions on immigration will become smaller than the decline to state
registrations in late 2017 will be the decisive state for the republicans on the nomination process. >> thank you for joining us tonight. coming up, which will hurt the republican party more, that's the question they're facing, donald trump getting the nomination or donald trump not getting the nomination. that's next. don't let dust and allergies get between you and life's beautiful moments. with flonase allergy relief, they wont. when we breathe in allergens, our bodies react by over producing six key inflammatory substances that cause our symptoms. most allergy pills only control one substance. flonase controls six. and six is greater than one. flonase outperforms the #1 non-drowsy allergy pill. so you can seize those moments, wherever you find them. flonase. six is greater than one changes everything. ♪
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we've taken the vote away from great people. we've disenfranchised people. we're going to stop it and bring it back and here's what's really important on tuesday you have to get out and vote. >> that was donald trump today speaking on long island, new york. he was asking for votes on tuesday's presidential primary. if the stop trump movement is successful from stopping donald trump from getting the presidential nomination will that damage the party more than donald trump actually getting the nomination. joining us now former republican senator from wisconsin who supports donald trump and back with us steve schmidt. senator caston donald trump is facing a stop trump movement. you're supporting a presidential candidate who is facing something that no other presidential candidate has ever had to face within his own party
and if he gets the nomination the stop trump movement will become a democratic party effort. what are you advising the campaign as their best strategy. >> right now i'm optimistic and i think if you look at new york the first thing we have to do is win new york and win new york big and that seems to be what's happening. and the effort -- there are lots of things going on around us and around the trump campaign and including the unheard of stop trump effort, but the fact is one step at a time which is why donald trump has been successful so far despite being an outsider and that is we've been taking one step at a time and they've been positive steps. so i think the first thing we have to do is do well in new york. steve is absolutely correct that in the end coloraalifornia is g to be very important. then the question is what's going to happen with the party
if someone comes in with something less than the 1,237 that's new edded. certainly the person that's closest to 1,237 would be favored, but there's some questions as to what would happen. so right this minute win new york, win new york big and go on and do what the campaign has been doing since the beginning when there were 17 different candidates and that is continue to grow and work and expand. politics is a process of the addition. what we want to do now is keep growing and keep expanding, but most importantly win in new york and win big. >> let's listen to what ted cruz said tonight to chuck todd. >> who is picking this republican nooecminee, the delegates or the voters. >> both. we're campaigning with the
voters. it is the people electing the delegates. if we go to a contested convention, it will be the delegates elected by the people, but they have been elected by the voters in the first place and this is a battle to earn the support of the american voters across the country. >> if your candidate goes into the convention significantly behind donald trump in delegates, but trump doesn't have a majority and your candidate ted cruz comes out of that convention on who knows how many ballots with the nomination, is it a nomination worth having? don't you fear trump supporters fleeing the cruz nomination, don't you fear the democrats exploiting a fractured party as you go into a general election? >> that's a phenomena every connest tent coming out and you've been hearing ted talk for more than a month now about uniting the party and growing a coalition. you win by addition and ted is
doing that. it's why he's racking up wins like wisconsin and it's why people like jeb bush and rick perry are coming on board the campaign. it's going on around ted cruz's campaign and no other on the republican side. that's serving him very well of course. we've done very well so far in april and whether it's been in a straight up voting in a primary like wisconsin or whether it's been in the delegate contest to win the hearts and minds of conventi conventions, we've been doing very well and that's because of the foundation that ted cruz built on a principal basis and that's serving this nation very well. >> if donald trump arrives at the convention with the most delegates, but not enough, not the magic number, what's the best outcome for the party? is donald trump getting the nomination the best outcome or not getting the nomination? >> there's an old john kennedy
quote that just because there's a problem doesn't mean there's a solution. i think when we look at a fractured party and the party would be badly fractured if the person who went in with the most votes and the most delegates was denied the nomination, ted cruz is right, it's a combination of the voters and delegates, really hard to explain, really hard to explain to the first time voters who think this is a one-man, one-vote process. we underestimate the ability of hillary clinton if she's the democratic nominee or bernie sanders to bring republicans back together behind whomever the nominee may be. i also think it's a false choice to believe if they don't have the requisite number of delegates that this becomes a choice between donald trump and ted cruz or donald trump and ted cruz and john kasich. the rule could be easily changed that says that you have to have one eight states to be placed in a nomination and it could well be that a person who has not run
walks out of the republican convention if it's divided enough with the nomination. i heard paul ryan. my view of it after hearing him speak his chance of him walking out of the convention went up not down. >> why. >> because i think he protests too much and i think he's smart to understand that the requirement is to say -- >> isn't it the worst -- >> i think you have to be in it to win it and hillary clinton has a lot of flaws as a candidate. she is a beatable candidate in the general election, but one of the things if you go back and listen to what charlie sykes was talking about, a lot of people are talking in line of what he's talking about which is the lose with cruz strategy. ted cruz could be the nominee, he's likely not to win a general election, but he preserves, the
institution of the republican party and the republican party can rebuild. no one can answer what states he can win that john mccain and mitt romney lost. if you go into the convention and you have the two choices and are badly trailing hillary clinton, the numbers are badly upside and there are other candidates in the race that are conservative enough to appeal to the delegates, but have a better chance to win the nebraska senator for example, anything is possible as you go into an open convention. the rules can be easily changed to have a process where anybody can compete to get the 1,237 delegates which is the number necessary to be nominated. >> he makes this more interesting with every sentence he speaks. senator, when we come back i want to ask you if there's an open convention and donald trump has to make a plea to the delegates from that stage, i want you to suggest what he should say to those delegates that we haven't heard him say before. we're going to get a quick break
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we have to be be united and stand together if we're going to win this nomination and if we're going to beat hillary clinton. >> we're back discussing inside the stop trump movement. bob, as the trump supporter here, imagine the convention in which donald trump has to stand before those delegates and ask for their votes, that it's an open convention. what can he say, what would you suggest he say to those delegates that they have not already heard? >> let's just begin with what steve just said and i think he's exactly right. the cruz candidacy, the cruz candidacy for president has very little upside among republicans and i think republicans all over the country understand that. some people are concerned about donald trump, ted cruz has become a vehicle to block trump, but there isn't a movement, a pro-cruz growing kind of movement. the question is lose with cruz
in ohio, lose with cruz at the convention. forget about cruz. i don't think people are coming to the republican convention in 2016 with the idea of losing. you start with the premise of lose with whoever. so the donald trump message is going to be i have an upside. i have the opportunity to reach out to people not only who aren't delegates, and many people who aren't republicans and people completely outside the system, which is one of the reasons i haven't been successful in reaching our magic 1,237 number, but i working with you and with the other candidates and with other republicans across the country have the opportunity to reach out to a wider, broader, newer group of people, not unlike the reagan democrats that came and joined us when we put together the coalition that we put together in 1980. the idea of losing for
republican delegates coming to cleveland is going to be absolutely unacceptable, especially against the hillary clinton who is going to be -- look at what's going to happen to here in new york. she's going to win new york, but the morning she wakes up she's going to be more of a broken up candidate as a winner because it's just a tough slog. she is going to be vulnerable. we don't want to lose with cruz or lose with anyone else and with trump we can be successful. >> ken, ted cruz clearly will face an argument that the convention possibly from a majority of delegates that we will lose with cruz as bob just said. what's your response to that and then also the scenario that steve schmidt laid out here of the possibility of another candidate, including someone who has not run for praeesident, including the possibility of
pawn rya paul ryan. >> a lot of the concerns about ted are very similar to ones you heard about ronald reagan, a conservative can't win. since i was born no republican who ran not embracing being a conservative has one. 100% loss rate. that would include donald trump if we nominated him. and 100% of candidates who embraced being a conservative have won. you find a statistic like that in politics very often. it doesn't happen very often. ted fits that mold. he's been running on a plat form of bold colors. he's laid out a freedom of protecting the constitution and yet his coalition is growing. i heard the senator talk earlier about growing a coalition. there's only one candidate in
the republican contest right now who continues to see his coalition grow. that's ted cruz. yes you have to continue doing that into the fall to win, but you also have to establish a meaningful, principaled difference with the democrats, not just the allowed showmen which is what we're running against here. we've built a grassroots machine that will help the rest of the republican ticket, not donald trump who will cause wreckage down the ticket. >> thank you all for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. coming up, steve kornacki is going to go back to the board and show us what donald trump might be able to do to stop the stop trump movement. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪
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lying ted cruz talked about new york values at the debate and he talked about it with anger and really hatred. he's i guess number three in the polls in new york and many of the other states and nobody even knows who number two is. they don't know. >> more of donald trump on long island today. congressman cris collins from the suburbs of buffalo new york who supports donald trump says he believes republican voters will stop the stop trump movement. >> we talked about 1,237 and i can tell you we got to 1,265 in a conservative way and i think we know that's the key. we went state by state and the math added up to 1,265. i'm comfortable and it's not
guaranteed. we're going to know more tuesday. >> steve kornacki is at the board and he'll show us what donald trump would have do to stop the stop trump movement. >> it is very possible for donald trump. there's four steps he would need to take here. one starts in new york next week. looks like he's going to win. the question is how close to all 95 delegates does he get. on a good night he gets them all. on a bad night he'll be around 75. that's one of the things to keep an eye on. second step here is a week later it's in pennsylvania. we put an asterisk here because in pennsylvania the catch is. you get 17 if you win the state. trump is polling well and that looks good. here is the big catch in pennsylvania. 54 unbound delegates. they are individuals who are going to run on that primary ballot. they're going to be elected to be delegates at the convention. they're going to be unbound. they're going to be free agents, but a lot of those candidates for unbound delegates are now saying they will vote at the convention for whoever wins
their congressional district, whichever presidential candidate wins their district in the primary. if trump is winning pennsylvania as big as the polls suggest he may pick up a lot of unbound delegates and that's a big game changer in terms of math. the first contest in indiana, there's no polling in the state. we don't know. you could make a case for trump, you could make a case for cruz, but here's why it's so important, those 57 delegates, if you win the state by a pioin or two, you're walking away with 45 or more. if you lose the state you're stuck with nine. finally the last key for donald trump out in california you mentioned there's 53 districts winner take all by district, if trump's winning 35 or more of these districts he's in pretty good shape out of california. >> no poll in indiana? i beg your pardon. we must have a poll.
♪ you're not gonna watch it! ♪ ♪ no, you're not gonna watch it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download on the goooooo! ♪ ♪ you'll just have to miss it! ♪ yeah, you'll just have to miss it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download... uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. and now for tonight's last word on the stop trump movement. back is the former ohio secretary of state. ken, if donald trump wins
california, the convention will still be five weeks away. would the stop trump movement stop then or would the stop trump movement keep going, keep trying to wrestle that nomination away from him? >> i think there is a segment of the stop trump movement that would say he is the nominee. you do have some folks who say never trump. i don't know what they would continue to do, but the reality is that if you get at his projected 1,270 they're talking about him winning, you have to see him going from winning about 45% of the votes cast to about 68%. i don't think that that's -- that's going to happen. i think once again 140 years ago we had a contested convention in ohio. rb hayes won it on the seventh ball ballot. i think that's going to go multiple ballots in ohio and i
think donald trump is going to make the cut. >> the reason he didn't want the republicans criticizing each other in the primaries is because the democrats will use that. here you are running a campaign to do nothing but hurt another republican candidate, donald trump. obviously everything you're doing, if trump is the nominee will be used by democrats against him in the general election. >> i don't even think that can overtake the negatives that hillary clinton will bring because she represents a third term of obama and i think this country is ready for a change. they don't like the low labor participation rate, they don't like the fact that we're not respected internationally. they don't like the fact that this country is a country without boarders. i actually think that what's going to happen is that the republicans will produce a strong nominee and just as george bush and ronald reagan
got over their differences, we're going to see a win in november. >> these sound like bigger differences to me. ken blackwell gets tonight's last word from inside the stop trump movement. thank you. >> thank you. our live coverage continues next with a special edition of hardball with chris matthews. approximate of approximate of approxima good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington with a special edition of hardball. hillary clinton and bernie sanders were face-to-face tonight in their last scheduled debate of the democratic primaries. let's get to one of the big moments of the night. clinton was quick to bring up sanders interview with the new york daily news last week