tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC April 15, 2016 12:00am-1:01am PDT
good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington with a special edition of hardball. hillary clinton and bernie sanders were face-to-face tonight in their last scheduled debate of the democratic primaries. let's get to one of the big moments of the night. clinton was quick to bring up sanders interview with the new york daily news last week provoking this fight about which candidate has the judgment to be president. >> if you go and read, which i hope all of you will before tuesday, senator sanders long interview with the new york daily news, talk about judgment and the kinds of problems he had
answering questions about even his core issue, breaking up the banks. when asked he could not explain how that would be done. >> let's talk about judgment and super pacs, money which is completely undisclosed. where does the money come from? do we really feel confident about a candidate saying she's going to bring change in america when she's so dependent on big money interests. >> it's not an attack on me, but it's an attack on president obama.
you know, let me tell you why. you may not like the answer, but i'll tell you why. president obama had a super pac when he ran. president obama took tens of millions of dollars from contributors. and president obama was not at all influenced. when he made the decision to pass and sign dodd frank, the toughest regulations on wall street in many a year, so this is -- this
is a phoney, this is a phoney attack that is designed to raise questions when there's no evidence or support to support the insinuations that he is putting forward in these attacks. >> well, hillary clinton was also challenged about her assertion this week that vermont supplies the most guns connected to crimes in new york. let's watch that exchange. >> are you seriously blaming vermont and implicitly senator sanders for new york's gun violence? >> no, of course not. this is a serious difference
between us and what i want to start by saying -- it's not a laughing matter. 90 people on average a day are killed or commit suicide or die in accidents from guns. 33,000 people a year. i take it really seriously because i have spent more time than i care to remember being with people who have lost their loved ones. so, yes, we have a problem in america. we need a president who will stand up against the gun lobby. we hear a lot from senator sanders about the greed and recklessness. -- manufacturers and dealers in america. >> well, she didn't answer your question. [cheers and applause] you asked her whether she thought that vermont was responsible for a lot of the gun
violence. you made the point which she said was totally absurd. >> i asked her are you seriously blaming vermont and senator sanders for new york's gun violence, she said no, but go ahead. >> why did she put out that statement? excuse me. i think i'm responding now. >> please. go ahead. >> a statement that was refuted by the governor of the state of vermont who was a supporter of hers who said in campaigns people tend to exaggerate. >> with me now from the site of tonight's debate in brooklin. are we getting the word right now how they're spinning this. let's start with your campaign that you're covering, hillary clinton, did they say they won tonight? >> reporter: they say they think they had a strong night and we're still waiting for them to actually come out to the spin
room so we can get them to flesh that out a little bit more, but here is what they are touting. they think one of the strong moments was when senator sanders seemed to not be able to point to a specific instance of her accepting money from paid speeches from wall street corporations translated into her lack of action in terms of taking action against wall street. he gave a broader answer and she said you can't answer. then you saw part of that exchange that you played over guns, this is one of her signature issues as you know she has been campaigning with some of the mothers who lost sons to gun violence and senator sanders was asked does he owe the sandy hook victims an apology for saying he doesn't agree with that legislation that they have pursued, essentially which would hold manufacturers accountable for gun crimes. he said no i don't owe them an apology. they think that was a strong
exchange for secretary clinton. there were some strong moments for her. over the transcripts she was pressed repeatedly on why she hasn't released those transcripts yet of the paid speeches she received. the clinton campaign divided about this strategy of not releasing paid speeches. so they think all in all this was a strong night for secretary clinton, but there is no doubt what we saw tonight are these two candidates who are locked in this fierce fight right now for new york which could determine this race moving forward. >> okay. thank you. let's go to kasey hunt. bernie sanders looked like was his last best night to win this thing. he was red faced, smart as hell hitting every point he could, i think it was his real attempt to put her away tonight. i don't know if he did it or not. what are they saying? >> i think that what you saw was
exactly what the sanders campaign tell graufd was going to happen which was he came out on that stage determined not to let her land a punch on him without making sure he was hitting back as hard as he could. there were dispensing with this concern that we've heard about over the course of the past couple of months that maybe he would have a moment where he would go inappropriately after a female candidate on stage and come out looking the worse for wear. he came into this ready to go back and forth with her and he went right into it and i think you're right that they view this -- i wouldn't go so far as to say it's a last stand, but there is a recognition that this is really a proving ground in many ways that is going to determine how the last month or so of this campaign goes. while he did push back on her and there were those transcripts as a tough moment for hillary clinton, i think that's right, but bernie sanders also didn't
necessarily prosecute that case against her and he got a little bit tripped up when she turned and started focusing on his tax returns. >> what is his excuse? the taxes were turned in more than a year ago and he says jane is still working on them. it's one thing to say it's april 15th tomorrow. a lot of people are rushing the deadline right now, but what about the '14, '13, the '12 and he says my wife is working on them. that's passing the buck. it's like he was going to call her up and say where are they. i thought it was ridiculous. hillary should have gone for the jugular on that baby. maybe she's still worried about the 625,000 she got from goldman sachs. great report. i'm watching this and i think i did tweet this is a boxing match.
bernie is like the guy who sees the cut on the eye and he keeps hitting it and he's got a rack. he says that with joy. he says i got you on a rack. i got you on the $625,000 you took for those great speeches you gave. he just nails her on that stuff and he won't quit on them. >> no, that's his whole campaign and the main cut he thinks he has, the main place he thinks he has hillary bleeding -- >> that's what it was like today. >> was on money and politics. it's all about the corrupting -- >> where are the transcripts? >> everything that bernie does funnels into that one question about the corrupting influence of money. it's preventing us from getting national health care, it's preventing college education. he pounded. now if this were a boxing match i think he did cut her and she did bleed and she's the champ
and you have to knock out the champ. i don't think he did quite either, although i thought he was very strong and i thought she was a little too legalistic here at protecting her lead. >> i think if you had a silent look at this tv show, you would say one older guy flailing around red faced demanding time every second he wasn't talking he was going like this, i want it back. hillary smiling away -- >> she was smiling with one look and she was pounding him with the other. she was pounding away pretty hard too. >> she has the confidence of a front-runner. >> think about where we were in 2008 at this point where the race was arguably much more contested and obama started to pull back as the front-runner. she went in for the kill especially on the gun issue. she said things that i hadn't heard her go that far saying he
is one of the most reliable voters in terms of the nra on guns. >> that was his wound. the main issue really is wall street and the corrupting influence. the subtext has been that somehow hillary clinton's campaign contributions have effected the way she's voted in congress and this is the first time she had an opportunity to put that to rest and to call sanders out on that and say what are the examples. >> he's going to go looking for them now. it's a little late. i thought there was a women's moment there tonight where the majority voter which are women was a tag opportunity. when he started to laugh about the gun violence and she said it's not a laughing matter, i think a lot of people were lost up in the talk of how to deal with the banks and dodd frank, but they were following guns because everybody walks the streets afraid of getting knocked off. there's a lot of violence on the
streets even in new york. when she went through the number of people killed by guns or suicides or murder and he tried that chuckle like she does and i think he got caught off base like that. don't laugh about gun violence. >> he doesn't have a good answer. if he wants to stand by the vote he took, this is exactly the wrong time that you want to be doing that when this lawsuit up in connecticut that the sandy hook families are pursuing that the judge has decided this should go forward and he is day before on the record saying he doesn't support exactly that type of legal case. >> i want to get to robert here. i think it was -- i don't want to say this because i think there's some great issues in this campaign, i think he behaved tonight like a big shot. >> on the fundamental issue of his campaign, money and politics, he's going back to the heart and soul and trying to revive those disengaged
democrats and bring them to the floor and say i'm here for you, but he has the cut on his eye of his candidacy when it comes to gun and she had the poise of a front-runner. she kept her cool and you see the secretary right now poised to do well in new york. >> i'm struck by the use of language of bernie that's like donald trump with different issues, but the same direct talk by bernie and the fact that he and donald trump overlap on a number of things especially in foreign policy. again, this time though bernie is the guy on the outside looking in. right now trump is on the inside. >> if there was -- if there's ever an easy way to pick out people, he's the dobb, she's the hawk. but saying she supported the iraq war, she supported going into libya, she supports a no-fly zone in syria. on every point she was to his
white. >> i think we're looking also forward a little bit to the general election because if you listen to her answer on libya she doesn't have a great answer and she wound up at the end of the day putting it on president obama. that's not going to be good enough. she's going to have to come up with a better answer. >> most of the time she was wrapping herself in obama except for libya. >> what was worse her putting it on obama or him putting it on jane. >> i have not heard a discussion at this level of a presidential campaign about isreal and pal stine. it was gutsy, but it means he knows he's not going to win new york state. he's not going to win new york state and rather have his credibility intact. he's not close enough to win and that's going to be part of his explanation for why he didn't
win because he had the guts to go on pal stine. >> i'm going to think more about that. that's really disconcerning because i think it's an easy competition to get into. >> in new york it always happens. in a way this was historic. >> it was pointed out -- >> he's not -- >> but he never went there. >> never went. >> this is great stuff. still ahead to hear from the top officials of the sanders and clinton campaigns, they're coming here. governor cuomo is coming here. this is a special edition of hardball. we needed 30 new hires for our call center.
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he called out president clinton for using the term of super predator. >> it was a racist term and everybody knew it was a racist term. but where we are today, if we have a broken criminal justice system, we have more people in jail than any other country on earth. and in my view, what we have got to do is rethink the system from the bottom on up. >> welcome back to our live coverage of the democratic debate tonight in brooklin. that was a big moment for bernie sanders tonight. he has won eight of the last democratic contests.
he's way behind in new york. i'm joined by sanders campaign manager. i got the feeling that watching your guy tonight this was the last round of a fight and he was going for the knock-out. what do you think? >> the clinton campaign used it as a slur earlier in the process here and i thought he came out strong. i think he was there to debate and i think he did and i think he won the debate. >> do you think -- the money that hillary clinton got in the three speaking fees, do you think that's something that's still got some legs on it? >> legs? look, people want to know what were in those speeches. why did they pay you all that
money? in some of these speeches she spoke for 20 minutes. she played more in those 20 minutes than a minimum wage worker makes in a year. >> what do you think is in there? >> let's find out. who knows. >> come on. what do you think is in there? you must think there's something worth looking at in there. >> we want to see it. >> what's that? did she sell out? >> i don't know what she said, but if she doesn't want to show us it leads us to think there's something in there that people don't want to hear. >> i think it's interesting to find out what goes on behind closed doors, because let's face it that's why we use the phrase behind closed doors to get people interested in what happens on the other side. when hillary clinton said name one place where i sold out because of those speeches. >> it's not about -- it's not a question of sold out. i think the question was about the campaign contributions.
>> yeah. how come your guy wasn't prepped? how come he couldn't name one time where hillary made a deal and paid it off. >> she supports the trade agreements and the wall street bailout. she supports the corporate agenda. >> i don't think it's that way. i think people believe certain things. i think there are people who are free traders and people who are not and bernie sanders is not a free trader. he's been against the trade deals and hillary is for them. that's a differences of position. >> come on. >> you were saying they did it. you said they do it because they're paid to do it. >> that's not what i said. >> yes, you did. i asked you give me an example of where hillary clinton paid back for something she got from -- wealthy -- and you gave
me the example of the trade deals was your example. >> you got it wrong. they don't give her money so she changes her position. they give her money because she like her positions. >> that's different. >> it is different. >> that's more benign than accusing somebody of doing something for the money. >> why is it that the corporations think she's on their side? >> it beats being on the take. >> i think we need a president who people know is on a working people's side. >> let me ask you a question and get back to that question about hillary clinton. do you believe that she's been bought by the money she's gotten in campaign contributions or in speaking fees, she's been bought, yes or no. >> no. >> what about the line where you said she sold the devil. >> i said she made a deal with
the devil. >> what's the difference? >> it's a metaphor. >> for what? >> when you take money from large special interests you can't expect that you're going to be able to regulate them effectively. that's the way it works. you talked about this when you interviewed me the last time. you go soft on them and you're not as hard on them as you otherwise would be. they have more access. that's the way washington works. these people are not giving money to candidates for no reason. >> what i said was and i think you would agree on this, the danger of taking money from any interest is that you're not so aggressive in going after them. let's face it. that's the real problem. i think we can agree on that. >> it is a problem. of course. >> i agree with you so stop talking. jeff weaver, thank you. you're right on that point. we'll be talking again and again. gun control has loomed large as an issue of course. let's look at how hillary clinton attacked bernie sanders over his association with the nra. >> in 1988 as we've heard senator sanders did run for the
congress and lost. he came back in 1990 and he won. during that campaign he made a commitment to the nra that would he be against waiting periods and in fact in his own book he talks about his 1990 campaign and here's what he said. he clearly was helped by the nra because they ran ads against his opponent. so then he went to the congress where he has been a largely very reliable supporter of the nra voting. he kept his word to the nra. he voted against the brady bill five times. >> we'll bring back our panel. robert, heidi and howard. what was it about tonight, who has been bought and owned and who is in bed with the nra, who has been bought off. they're in the tank for somebody. this is serious stuff they're charging here. >> it's serious and it's not
personal between clinton and sanders, what you saw was a referendum on the democratic party, what kind of party is it and what's it going to be. sanders is raising these questions is it too close to corporate interests. >> what somebody said the other day a bad word in describing it. prostituting yourself for money. >> that notion is the cloud that hovers over sanders' argument about the clinton candidacy. and i think clinton keeps coming back to the case that she's ready for a general election, but that's lingering questions on the left about clinton still linger. >> go ahead. heidi, quickly. >> i think one thing we have to point out about today is there was a theme that clinton came into this campaign -- to this debate and she kept hitting it over and over again which is it's good to diagnose something, but you have to get into the
details and she hit him on a number of issues where he was supposing to be hitting her like fraking and if you want to talk about issues in new york state that was supposed to be his trump card. >> i think he wins the argument about big banks because people don't like big banks, but she was duking it out with him. >> she clobbered him on what we just showed there on guns. >> that was a winner. >> she stunned on that one. i think more generally her argument is look, bernie, i agree with you on the diagnosis as you say of the problems, but i can get us half a loaf here. you're talking a pie in the sky that we're never going to have. i'm going to give us down the road. this year it's a really tough argument to make. robert's also right that's what's on trial is clintonism,
which was bill clinton joining up with wall street and bill clinton was saying we're not going to go with the unions down the line, it's not going to be which side are you on, it's going to be we're going to get together with big business. that worked for a time and that's what hillary said. she says look at the '90s. >> this is the old left of the labor party. that's the old left trying to win back what they tried to create. they said no let's go back to the old way. thank you everyone. coming up, much more from tonight's debate and whether it could tip the scales. i don't think it will. i just don't think it. i think people are going to stay in their corner tonight. we're going to hear from a hillary guy, the governor of new york, governor cuomo is going to be here and this is special edition of hardball. >> we worked hard to keep new
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giving speaking engagements? so they must have been very upset by what you did. >> welcome back to hardball. that was bernie sanders mocking hillary clinton over her position on the financial industry. clinton hit back on sanders on protecting the gun manufacturing industry. >> i believe that the law that senator sanders voted for and i voted against giving special protection to gun manufacturers and to dealers is an absolute of responsibility. >> decades ago before it was popular in a rural state with no gun control bernie sanders said let's ban assault weapons, not see them distributed in the
united states. >> the governor of new york is a clinton supporter. thank you for coming on tonight. there was winners and losers tonight. hillary clinton was very strong in going after senator sanders for his lax attitude in fighting for gun control. can you tell us what impact guns from vermont have had in violence on the streets of new york. >> yeah. first, thank you. good to be with you. don't underestimate the gun issue in the state of new york. it's a very big deal. sandy hook was in connecticut. it's just a few miles from new york. it's resonated. this is a big issue. i passed the safe act in new york, which was very controversial, but i believe the smartest gun control law in the country right after sandy hook happened. look, senator clinton knows the politics of new york also. we have rural parts of new york state and i passed a gun control
law and i took a political beating for it from upstate new york rural communities so we understand the politics here, but the immunity law for gun manufacturers is an outrage. the only industry in the united states that has immunity by law is the gun manufacturers. remember what happened, at the time gore was running against bush smith and wesson had signed a safe gun agreement to do away with the lawsuits. the safe gun agreement would have changed the way guns were manufactured, designed and distributed. bush said don't sign it because if i win i'll give the gun manufacturers immunity and that's what he did and that's the bill we're talking about. so this to me is the most salient issue that is germane in this entire debate.
it matters in new york and it's going to matter in a lot of other states too. >> let's talk about wall street. the u.s. congress for years now, almost 20 or 30 years now, is unable -- members can't take money for speeches. nobody's allowed to do it because it creates a conflict of interests with lobbyists. certainly where i work you can't give a speech for money. everybody knows you take money from somebody it's going to look like some kind of deal under the table. hillary clinton has taken over $600,000 from goldman sachs, isn't there a problem there explaining that she wasn't bought. they're not giving up on this baby. >> i hear you and i understand the implication, but welcome to our campaign finance system. that's why i advocate public finance.
>> she took the money for personal use. these were for speeches for her own personal income. >> i understand. but i think the point is if someone gives you a lot of money, can you be independent, right? that's basically senator sanders' point over and over again. the implication is if you take money from someone you're going to be influenced. they do that all across the board. my answer is if you are a person who can be influenced by a contribution, you're the wrong person to be in elected office because there's going to be a lot of temptations. if you can be corrupted, you will be corrupted so you're the wrong person for the business. but even on the big banks, i think what you hear over and over the more they debate, they agree on the what needs to be done. where they disagree is on the how do you do it? i think senator clinton is more
prescriptive on the facts of making change where senator sanders uses a broader brush. as people who have worked in government who actually accomplish things, i understand what senator clinton is saying. you have to get a piece of legislation passed unless you think both houses go democratic it means you're going to have to appeal to the republicans, to appeal to the republicans you're going to have to compromise, et cetera. so she tends to have a more granular analysis of how to get it done. >> who is going to win next week and by how much? >> hillary is going to win. i don't want to do the points, but i think she's going to win. i don't play the expectation game. it was her home state, she has to win by x. i think that's just setting a bar, but i believe she's going to win. i believe it's going to be by a healthy margin, but senator
sanders, god bless him, he's run a good campaign. he has a strong message. it's simple and resonates with young people. he's getting big numbers of young people out in the crowd. so this is a real race and i think the race he's running has to be respected too. >> what do you think -- i've got to get this. what do you think of that sweetheart ted cruz speaking of you being representative of new york values. >> i take it as a compliment. >> i thought you might. >> after what he said i'm surprised he came to new york. if he doesn't understand what it means, tell him to call me and i'll explain it to him. >> okay. thank you so much. governor cuomo of new york state. up next i'll speak to the democratic chair. you're watching hardball.
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if you go and read, which i hope all of you will before tuesday, senator sanders long interview with the new york daily news, talk about judgment and talk about the kinds of problems he had answering questions about even his core issue, breaking up the banks. when asked, he could not explain how that would be done. >> let's talk about judgment and let us talk about the worst foreign policy blunder in the modern history of this country. i led the opposition to that
war. secretary clinton voted for that war. >> welcome back to our special edition of hardball. the two candidates question each other's judgment tonight. what's the battle doing to the democratic party's hopes of winning in november. i'm joined by the chair of the democratic committee. first of all, a matter of technical fact here, was this the last debate between these two candidates? is this it? >> the candidates previously agreed as you know to an additional four debates for a total of ten and we've been taking each debate as it comes and after the debate tonight will go back to the negotiating table between the two campaigns and the dnc and the networks that want to put on the debate and we'll take on the next one over the next few weeks. >> don't forget us madam chairman. let me ask you about the question.
do you think -- this was a tough debate. they used civilized language like judgment, but these were almost questions of character here going after somebody from taking money from goldman sachs and still maintain their independence, going to war. these are tough questions that it was a very tough debate tonight even if the language was civil. >> i think both candidates exercised the muscle for sure. and they demonstrated by pointedly differing with one another not on the goals, but on how to achieve them that either one of them would be a tremendous fighter on behalf of the american people and to go toe to toe with the extremists that are running on the other side of the aisle if we can get them to talk about the issues important to the american people and complaining about the system being rigged and being vulgar every other minute. >> thank you so much.
we return and this is hardball. if i hear you correctly madam secretary, you are now coming out finally in favor of lifting the cap on taxable income and extending and expanding social security. if that is the case, welcome on board. i'm glad you're here. >> we're back with this special edition of hardball.
i'm joined by francesca. what didn't we see on television? what was only visible and known by someone there? >> well, i think that one thing that we all observed was that tonight's attacks between the candidates were sharper than in some of the past debates. we saw a different side of bernie sanders show up here tonight really willing to engage in attacks with secretary clinton and not willing to back down from a fight. >> what do you think he was up to because he was really pushing the -- what i call the wounds on the facing of hillary clinton? he kept punching the iraq war and taking the money for speaking fees from goldman sachs. he seemed to want to bring her
down by hitting the vulnerable points and like hurting her. he was out to win this fight. he wasn't here just protesting democratic sentrism, he was trying to knock her out. >> the clinton campaign understands at this point that they have to do something dramatic to be able to win not just in new york on tuesday, but to win this election and the kind of fight they were fighting before is just not going to cut it at this point. he has to differentiate himself from secretary clinton on the issues that you just stated and the way he had been approaching it in past debates frankly wasn't working. >> thank you so much for joining us. let's go to ken vogel. the differential between previous and tonight. clearly he was trying to score points again and again. it was like a boxing match. >> yeah. a lot of it is stuff they have litigated in the past.
they're clearly going after the -- it's like a fight and it's the same jabs that we're seeing over and over again. you could see that stick out to me was just how much on each other's last nerve they are. when bernie sanders would start to go into his attacks on hillary, she would laugh at him. she would bitter laugh and then he laughed at her when she started to raise the point about guns and she really went after him. it just goes to show you that this is a long campaign. we're winding to the end. everyone else sees how it's playing out that bernie sanders is not going to win and this was his last chance to really make a statement before a big primary and i don't know that he really did. >> his favorite punch was you called them out on wall street. that must have really hurt them. was that before or after you took their money. the money she's been bought, she's working for them, she's on
the take, isn't just the difference, he said she's made bad decisions in her personal life. >> he is portraying himself as the dreamer and that he can -- why haven't you raised money for the democratic party, i'll raise money for them by bringing people into the system. and she's like the wife, no bernie, we can't afford this jet ski. >> i think it works both way. >> it's like a broken record. >> how do you make up for this when you shake hands in philadelphia, oh yeah i accused her of selling her soul to the
devil, jeff weaver is saying it over and over again. it's she's my best bet for president now or at least she's better than donald trump. >> that's why he looks so uncomfortable when she's saying i did this before and i stood there with barack obama and she said we need to unify the party. >> obama never said she was on the take. >> it's an attack that could hurt her running against donald trump whose whole candidacy is that politicians are on the take. >> we'll have the final thoughts on this debate and the presidential race which continues. apparently this may not be the last debate although it looked like it tonight. >> if we approach this arrow as if we were literally in a war, in 1941 under franklin roosevelt we moved within three years to rebuild our economy to defeat nazism and japanese imperialism. that's the approach we need right now. >> thank you.
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you put up one post and the next day you have all these candidates. makes my job a lot easier. (announcer) over 400,000 businesses have already used ziprecruiter. and now you can use ziprecruiter for free. go to ziprecruiter.com/offer99 we're back right now with ken vogel and jane. let's talk about the headlines tonight.
what's the headline for tomorrow's paper? >> like time magazine. i think the headline is who is laying the ground for the general election. he heard her talk about ted cruz and donald trump and abortion and also global warming. she was talking about being the great unifier. with bernie it was laying the ground for why he lost. he said i'm telling truth on the power. >> that's how he started the race. i don't think he -- he's gone so far. standing up to hillary. maybe that's where he's going to end up being the guy who ran on issues. >> i think that's right and i think this is a like a legacy bay for him particularly on the middle east. he laid out a very robust and
unpoelgsic. >> i know. thank you both. happy thursday night. thanks for being with us tonight. the 1976 republican national convention was contested. quite dramatically contested. gerald ford was the president at that time. he was seen as a very weak incumbent. not only had he not been elected president, he had not been elected vice president. shortly after they won that election and were sworn in to start the second term in 1973, vice president spiro agnew came under investigation for bribery. nixon's vice president got