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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  April 19, 2016 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT

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10:00 p.m. eastern time, 7:00 on the west coast. this happened an hour ago. the instant polls closed, our election unit called new york, projected it for donald trump. there is the finishing order tonight. john kasich, when all these
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numbers are settled down, we're projecting he will, indeed, finish second in new york. so the kasich campaign, armed with their sole victory in his adopted home state of ohio, he is able to pick up a second. he is going into a string of states they hope will be favorable to them. they're hoping to survive, too, i guess we can assume a third ballot in cleveland. where i said earlier, a radio talk show host was warning people, if you're coming to cleveland, bring a gas mask. that is the hillary clinton projection 39 minutes after the polls closed. we projected it for hillary clinton. we're approaching 60% of the vote in, 60/40 race. a number just about every bit as impressive as what donald trump is racking up tonight. there is new york mayor the bill de blasio, who worked for the clinton campaign years ago, has
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had an interesting back and forth relationship with this incarnation of the clinton campaign. >> it's interesting. he held his council, sort of kept his council for a while, did not endorse right off the bat. eventually did endorse hillary clinton and has been a very enthusiastic supporter, but took him a while to get there. >> and during an otherwise miserable attempt at comedy in front of a live audience at the broadway show "hamilton," they later very awkwardly joked about it. ben ginsburg is here with us in the studio. the former general council to the rnc. he's worked for romney, worked for bush/cheney. and ben, we always talk about the path to cleveland. we always ask you what kind of an argument the stop-trump forces would have. how does tonight change the path to cleveland and the notion of a contested second, third, fourth ballot convention? >> well, it's a good night for donald trump. and as you've been explaining
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all night, the math now gets more difficult. so there's an interesting dynamic in donald trump being the outsider candidate, and the members of the republican national committee, who fancy themselves as grassroots activists, have now become the establishment. so that dynamic, when things get to cleveland will make changing of the rules and the procedural things that have the stop-trump movement could do actually much harder given the size of this kind of victory. and if he can keep up that momentum, really, really tough. >> ben ginsburg, can i ask you a question about the donald trump campaign apparatus? >> do i have to answer? >> well, you're in a unique position to either be able to answer it or dodge it artfully. and that is that we have now learned that donald trump, his main campaign lawyer is a man named don mcgan. >> mcgan. there's the first answer.
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>> he's also just hired a man named william mcginley to work his delegate and convention rules strategy. as far as i know, both of those men, both esteemed lawyers and republicans of good standing. they both work at a law firm called jones day. >> i'm sorry, what was the name of that -- >> where you are a partner. does this mean that your law firm is becoming sort of the trump campaign law firm? >> well, my law firm represents lots of clients and we do it well. and don and bill are two outstanding lawyers and mr. trump's lucky to have them. >> that was artful. >> thank you. let me go back to it one other way. i've asked you this on a number of other nights when donald trump has done well. do you think he's putting together an operation that is going to have the skill set and experience and the right people and the right places to win at a contested convention? does he have the firepower? >> well, he certainly now has a number of people who have worked
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conventions before, which he didn't nearly as much in his origin original apparatus. so part of doing the conventions is knowing the rules and how to do the procedures. but you have to have the floor operation and whip operation in order to motivate the delegates. and to do that, you have to be spending a lot of time in the field, at state conventions, being sure that the delegates who are under your banner are actually loyal to you for all the procedural votes that can come before the bound first ballot. and that, i think, is what the trump campaign really needs to do to be sure of. >> ben ginsburg, i know we will be checking back in with you. thank you. good to have you here. i want to bring in again steve kornacki, who's now looking at not just the hillary clinton win in new york state, but the scale of the win, the shape of the win, and what that might mean in terms of delegates. steve? >> this looks like it could be significant. we'll set this up early.
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bernie sanders comes in tonight, the number is about 210. he's down about 210 in pledged delegates. that's what he needs to even be in the conversation at the end of the primary season. the problem here in new york, it says 291. there were 247 up for grabs tonight. we're getting a sense of the contour of hillary clinton's victory. a lot of the vote has come in new york city, a small area right around here. 12 congressional districts that touch new york city. the democrats give out their delegates proportionally by congressional district. we got a pretty good sense out of new york city what the breakdown will look like there. hillary clinton had a big night in new york city. she'll probably net roughly, roughly, this is an estimate, she will roughly net 20 delegates from the 12 districts that touch new york city. the rest of the state, you see, it's more of a patchwork. we have limited returns from some places. but if these basic dimensions hold, as the rest of the state comes in, i think we can expect hillary clinton would end up adding over 30 delegates to her lead over bernie sanders. again, that's very rough right now, because we still have to
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see some of this vote come in up here. but the bottom line is that 210 is going to end tonight bigger, potentially, significantly bigger than it was. we went through earlier. how hard it is to erase an advantage that size for bernie sanders. it just got a whole heck of a lot harder. there's people who look at that and say, that's just impossible. >> steve kornacki, in terms of the overall size of the win, that's important not just for delegates, but also for momentum and bragging rights. right now just looking at the latest numbers, with 59% of the vote in, it looks like hillary clinton is up by 18%. given what is still out and how these candidates are expected to perform and the areas that are still out, do you expect as we get more of the vote in, that the double-digit nature of her lead is going to hold? >> the expectation is this should tighten somewhat. i'm not sure it will tighten to single digits. there may not be enough vote left to get this down to single digits. the key to new york city is new york city comes in first. that's the biggest area, her strongest area. bernie sanders, a lot stronger
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in the upstate, in the rural areas, in the southern tier. i don't know with 40% left if he can get it down to single digits. >> steve kornacki, thank you very much. >> eugene robinson, pulitzer prize winner of "washington post" is with us. there's that expression, staying too long at the fair. >> yeah? >> and after this very good result for the clinton campaign tonight, people who make a living at this are going to start asking about a, as chuck todd puts it, how does bernie sanders land the plane. >> right. and that's a question at of people will be asking, i think, beginning tomorrow, if they haven't answered already. you know, with donald trump's huge win tonight, we just should not underestimate how good a night this looks for hillary clinton. it answers a lot of questions. imagine, had things been otherwise, imagine if it were a narrow clinton lead at this point, or we still couldn't call the race, or it looked like she might even lose, which bernie sanders was suggesting, and the
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sanders people were suggesting strongly, even earlier today, that could happen. there would be a whole different narrative. she would be a weak front-runner, everyone would be asking, why can't she put this guy away? she seems to be doing a pretty good job of it in new york. and as his path to the nomination becomes more clouded and less probable, then the question is, does he change the tone of his campaign? i mean, you know, it sounded ridiculous a few weeks ago, when the clinton people were complaining about the tone of the sanders' campaign. that would sound a bit less ridiculous, i think, as we go into the coming weeks. because if he doesn't have a chance to get that nomination, what is he accomplishing? >> nicole, just as a political pro, obviously, you're a republican and so you have an outsider's view on the democratic race. do you think that the way -- let's say it stays like this and
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nothing radical happens and hillary clinton's on her way to getting the nomination. is the way that sanders is campaigning against her now, is that going to hurt her for the general election? >> these always come down -- it's a choice. it's hard to say where we are now -- >> but do certain kind of attacks hurt more and stick worse? >> if trump is the person she faces, you can trust that trump will throw everything at her, because that is what trump will do no matter whether bernie gets out now or two weeks from now. but what's interesting is sanders to me is like an outsider, like you said, this shiny object. we're so mesmerized by the power of his connection to those 28,000-person crowds that if this were the republican race, it would be over by now. we would have moved on, but because he's so mesmerizing, we keep talking about it. he has no chance of becoming the democratic nominee. and some night i lay awake wishing we had super delegates,
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we don't. so our race is a question mark until we get to the convention, perhaps. the democratic race is not. i'm sometimes confounded by -- >> why there isn't more pressure on him? >> why there isn't more talk about how over it is. >> well, you know, i guess because there are all these people who do support bernie sanders -- >> i know, but they can do other things. he's not going to be the nominee. >> he did just win the last seven states. >> sure, sure. >> i've talked to a lot of people who want the opportunity to demonstrate their support for bernie sanders. who really think he has brought something very -- >> but isn't there power in shaping what she's going to do the nominee. i think he holds all the cards at this second and i think elizabeth warren held them once before. this is the backdrop against which hillary clinton thought she is running. but elizabeth warren shaped the narrative when she got in. bernie sanders now has so much power. and i think it's a surprising way that he's using it. >> i think he'll probably think about that. there was an interesting question in the exit poll, i
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felt. does this campaign energize your party or divide it? and republicans -- >> and they're energized? >> the republican party felt they were being divided. democrats thought their party was being energized. >> interesting. >> when you ask people in a poll to be political analysts, you get really interesting answers, like, who do you expect to win? >> better than us. >> that sort of thing. usually better than us. i would probably take them at their word. >> for me, i feel like the big question that the democratic party has to consider and democratic voters have to consider is if bernie sanders, as you say, doesn't really have a shot at the nomination, is it exciting and a positive development to have him continue to be in the race, galvanizing people and exciting people and defining what the democratic party is, in the way that he has singularly, or is he out there hurting hillary clinton. not toughening her up, but actually hurting her in a way that will make her weaker against any republican in the fall? and that's a question that is not an empirical question. it's absolutely a judgment call. that's where we're at, if, in fact, sanders doesn't have a
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mathematical shot. hopefully we're going to hear directly from the sanders' campaign tonight on this broadcast, so we can find out from them if they agree with that assessment. >> can i run that question by chuck todd, political director and moderator of "meet the press." chuck, when is that gladstone-esque tipping point? when do you -- how do you determine it? >> it's tonight. i think this was -- i think in many ways, that was, you know, i think many democrats in washington, sort of the leadership of the democratic party, i think the clinton campaign, all of them quietly were like, all right, you get one shot at beating us on our turf in new york. at this point, the math doesn't work for him here. kbu i want to take -- i think nicole is right about sanders is at an interesting moment right now. he does have a lot of power. if he uses it correctly. but if he goes after her too hard, she is not going to feel the need to sort of have an open arms to him. he's got an opportunity to
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essentially take over -- he can lose the battle for the nomination, but win the long-term ideological war, if he plays his cards right. but if he goes about this a little scorched earth. ri like, the last five days -- if the last five days are repeated for the next two weeks, that's not a way to unify the party. then it becomes problematic. then clinton may not let sanders have as much running room as he could have at the convention. we'll find out from bernie sanders tomorrow morning. how does he act as a candidate tomorrow morning? is he again thae head of a movement or does he hard-nose after hillary clinton. >> really well put, chuck. you may have caught nicole wallace beaming at her callback -- >> no one in my house ever says i'm right, so when i hear it at work -- >> you're on notice, mark. >> we'll put that on a film drive for you. >> ring tone, baby. >> right now the governor of new york is giving the last so-called -- oh, he is not.
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that's absolutely not the governor of new york. they're going to play a film inside the ballroom as her remarks are placed at the podium, we're going to squeeze a break in here now. like, as donald trump did, if she shows up at that podium, we'll come busting out of that commercial as fast as you can say the democratic victor in tonight's new york primary, hillary clinton. man 1: you're new.
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man 2: i am. woman: ex-military? man 2: four tours. woman: you worked with computers? man 2: that's classified, ma'am. man 1: but you're job was network security? man 2: that's classified, sir. woman: let's cut to the chase, here... man 1: what's you're assessment of our security? man 2: [ gasps ] porous. woman: porous? man 2: the old solutions aren't working. man 2: the world has changed. man 1: meaning? man 2: it's not just security. it's defense. it's not just security. it's defense. bae systems.
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back into the times square sheraton hotel. here we go, with family, the victor of tonight's new york democratic primary, former secretary of state, new york senator, hillary clinton. ♪ these streets will make you feel brand-new ♪ ♪ these lights will inspire you ♪ ♪ let's hear it for new york ♪ where dreams are made of ♪ there's nothing you can't do
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♪ now you're in new york ♪ these streets will make you feel brand-new ♪ ♪ big lights will inspire you ♪ let's hear it for new york ♪ for new york ♪ for new york >> thank you, new york! thank you all so much! thank you! you know, today. today you proved once again,
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there's no place like home. you know, in this campaign, we won in every region of the country. from the north to the south to the east to the west, but this one's personal. new yorkers, you've always, you've always had my back. and i've always tried to have yours. today, together, we did it again and i am deeply, deeply grateful. i want to thank everyone who came out and voted and to all of you across new york who have
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known me and worked with me for so long. it is humbling, it is humbling that you'd trust me with the awesome responsibilities that await our next president. and to all the people who supported senator sanders, i believe there is much more that unites us than divides us. you know, we started this race not far from here on roosevelt island, pledging to build on the aggressive tradition that's done so much for america, from franklin roosevelt to brarack
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obama, and tonight, a little less than a year later, the race for the democratic nomination is in the home stretch and victory is in sight. >> hillary! hillary! hillary! hillary! >> and i want to -- i want to say, i want to say to all of my supporters and all of the voters, you have carried us every step of the way, with passion and determination that some critics tried to dismiss. because of you, this campaign is the only one, democrat or republican, to win more than 10 million votes.
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but i'm, i'm going forward because more voices remain to be heard and tomorrow, it's on to connecticut, delaware, maryland, pennsylvania, rhode island and beyond. we need you to keep volunteering. i hope you will join the 1.1 million people who have already contributed at and by the way, most with less than $100, because we have more work to do. under the bright lights of new york, we have seen that it's not enough to diagnose problems, you have to explain how you'd
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actually solve the problems. that's what we have to do together for our kids, for each other, for our country. so i want you with me to imagine a tomorrow where no barriers hold you back and all of our people can share in the promise of america. imagine a tomorrow where every parent can find a good job and every grandparent can enjoy a secure retirement. where no child grows up in the shadow of discrimination or under the specter of deportation. where hard work is honored, families are supported, and communities are strong. a tomorrow where we trust and respect each other, despite our
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differences. because we're going to make positive differences in people's lives. that is what this is supposed to be about. actually helping people and each other. now, we all know -- >> hillary! hillary! hillary! hillary! hillary! >> we all know, too many people who are still hurting. i see it everywhere i go. the great recession wiped out jobs, homes, and savings. and a lot of americans haven't yet recovered. but i still believe, with all my heart, that as another great democratic president once said, there's nothing wrong with america that can't be cured by what's right with america.
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that is, after all, what we've always done. it's who we are. america is a problem-solving nation. and in this campaign, we are setting bold, progressive goals, backed up by real plans that will improve lives, creating more good jobs that provide dignity and pride in a middle class life. raising wages and reducing inequality. making sure all our kids get a good education, no matter what zip code they live in. building ladders of opportunity and empowerment, so all of our people can go as far as their hard work and talent will take them. let's revital ides places that have been left out and left behind, from inner cities to coal country to indian country.
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and let's put americans to work, rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, including our failing water system, like the one in flint, michigan. there are many places across our country where children and families are at risk from the water they drink and the air they breathe. let's combat climate change and make america the clean energy super power of the 21st century. let's take on the challenge of systemic racism, invest in communities of color, and finally pass comprehensive immigration reform. and once and for all, let's guarantee equal pay for women!
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and we are going to keep our families safe and our country strong. and we're going to defend our rights. civil rights, voting rights, workers' rights, women's rights, lbgt rights, and rights for people with disabilities. those are, after all, new york values. and they are american values. and just as we did in this primary campaign, we need to stand up for them, through the general election and every day after that. you know, it's becoming clearer
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that this may be one of the most consequential elections of our lifetimes. donald trump and ted cruz are pushing a vision for america that's divisive and frankly dangerous. returning to trickle-down economics, opposing any increase in the minimum wage, stricti reg a women's right to make her own health care decisions. promising to round up millions of immigrants, threatening to ban all muslims from entering the country. planning to treat american muslims like criminals. these things go against
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everything america stands. and we have a very different vision. it's about lifting each other up, not tearing each other down. so instead of building walls, we're going to break down barriers. and in this campaign, i've seen again our remarkable diversity and determination. this is a state and a country of big-hearted, open-minded, straight-talking, hard-working people. you know, like john, a firefighter from the south bronx, that i met shortly after 9/11, as he searched for survivors at ground zero. and like so many others, john got sick from breathing the toxic air. when we met again last week, he gave me a replica of his fdny badge and thanked me for helping our first responders get the
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health care they need. we have to keep fighting for john and all of our firefighters and our police officers, our emergency responders, and the construction workers who did so much for us. our maxine, maxine, a 27-year-old single mom from staten island, who's here tonight. she shared with me how she worked her way out of poverty, graduated from college, thanks in part to the help she got for her child from the children's health insurance program that we started in the 1990s! or mikey who spent -- is mikey
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here? well, i'll tell you, mikey spent six months in rikers for a low-level drug offense and found out how hard it is for people who have done their time to find jobs when they get out. mikey managed to start his own ice cream shop. i took a lot of you in reality or through the media through there yesterday. i highly recommend it, as you might have seen. i couldn't stop myself from eating it as soon as i got it. by the way, he made a concoction for me called victory. but mikey is one of the many reasons why we have to reform our criminal justice system.
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and ban the box so others have a fair chance to succeed. you know, new yorkers and americans speak every language, follow every faith, hail from every continent. our diversity is one of our greatest strengths in the 21st century. not a weakness. as robert kennedy -- adds robert kennedy, whose senate seat i was honored to hold once said, we are a great country. an unselfish country, and a compassionate country. and no matter what anyone tells you or what you might hear from others running for president, that is still true today. america is great! and we can do great things if we do them together!
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so please join us. text, join 47426, go to, be part of this campaign. i know how important it is that we get the campaign's resources from people just like you, who go in and chip in, $5, $25, i am grateful to every one of you. and to the volunteers who have worked your hearts out. to the community leaders, members of the state senate and assembly, county executive, mayors of cities, large and small. and to the mayor of new york and our burorough presidents and ou city council members. and to our governor, our senators, our congressional
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delegations. and all my friends across this wonderful state of ours, thank you. you know, we're going to go up against some powerful forces that will do, say, and spend whatever it takes to stop us. but remember, it's not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get back up! and finally, finally, let me say this. finally -- >> hillary! hillary! hillary! hillary! >> finally, let me say this. there is a remarkable young woman here tonight. her name is erica. erica mcgelski. she lives the truth of what i've been saying every day.
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erica's mother, dawn, was the principal of sandy hook elementary school. and she died trying to protect her children, her students. erica was devastated as any family member is. and she couldn't imagine life without her mom. but then she got thinking. she got back up. she'd never been involved in politics before. but she has made it her mission to advocate for common sense gun safety reform.
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you know, like the mothers of eric garner and trayvon martin and so many others, erica has turned her sorrow into a strategy and her mourning into a movement. it isn't easy, but as erica said the other day, what if everyone who faced tough odds said, it's hard, so i'm going to walk away. that's not the type of world i want to live in. erica, it's not the type of world we want to live in, and we refuse to live in that. so my friends, that's the spirit that makes this country great. it's how new yorkers pulled together and rebuilt our city after the worst terrorist attack in our history. it's how americans worked our
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way back from the worst economic crisis in our lifetimes. and it is how we're going to break down all the barriers holding us back. the motto of this state is, excelsior. ever upward. so let's go out and win this election and all rise together! thank you so much! >> as kristen welker described it earlier, a genuinely up and boisterous crowd at tonight's clinton headquarters, not far from here, just off times square. as you see the mayor and first lady of new york. the governor. chelsea clinton, her husband, mark, but a real rally atmosphere tonight. >> and you know, it is actually this shot here and the shot of secretary clinton did to new
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york officials, it's hard to overat a time the depth of support she had from the democratic party in new york state. there are a lot of elected democratic members of congress from new york, not to mention, two elected democratic senators. every single one of them endorsed and every single one of them endorsed hillary clinton, as did the governor of the state, as did the mayor of new york city. she got the endorsement of new york's democratic-leading tabloid, the "new york daily news" as well as "the new york times," the paper of record in this state and around the country and around the world. the support for her here is deep. >> as she embraces the attorney general, the city council speaker. andrea mitchell is in the room for us. andrea? >> well, this is the first time hillary clinton has said, the race for the democratic nomination is in the home stretch, and victory is in sight. our goal is in sight. that's the first time she's ever said that, and she's also sent a message to bernie sanders, saying, there's more that unites us than divides us.
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there was no criticism of bernie sanders here tonight. only criticism of donald trump and ted cruz. this is the victory that she's been looking for. it would have been devastating to not win her adopted home state. and in dramatic contrast to this, bernie sanders left new york, went to pennsylvania, gave two speeches there, including one tonight on a college campus, on penn state, state college, but then left, left this press corps and his communications director, flew back to burlington without the press corps. the first time they've ever done that. and did so, then deciding to hold a very brief q&a with local reporters who gathered on the tarmac, and telling them that he will have more to say about all of this, but that he just needed to go home and recharge his batteries. until now, he's always made an appearance. he also did congratulate hillary clinton, which was significant. because after michigan and after
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several other successful primaries and caucuses, he did not congratulate her, and she in several instances did not call him. i think this could be a moment. this is an inflection moment. and as chuck and you all were discussing earlier, the map is really not with him. it would have to be an extraordinary turn of events for him to now win this nomination outright. certainly, as his campaign, jeff weaver told me today, they could contest it at an open convention, they plan to, they were certainly full of that expectation, when i talked to him only a few hours before the poll goes. but this seems to be a determinative moment. and how they handled this will really determine how this party goes forward. she is reaching out to him, clearly, in this speech tonight, but also saying, it's over, and that she really has the nomination in sight, if not being the presumptive nominee,
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which would not come by her own calculation, the earliest would be mid-may. brian and rachel? >> on the far left side of the screen, the former president of the united states, was the first to leave the mohamed and go work the rope line out ahead of his wife, tonight's victor in new york. the very tall mayor deplasio is visible there. and you should see bill clinton, there he is on the far left-hand side of the screen. a capacity crowd tonight. this is the sheraton hotel in times square. as rachel pointed out, it's a stone's throw, really, from trump tower on fifth avenue. not far at all, given the concrete canyons of midtown manhattan. steve kornacki is at the board with a special guest, someone whose name we just heard in andrea mitchell's reporting. steve? >> that's right, we're with jeff weaver, this is the campaign manager for bernie sanders. so we've been talking all night,
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jeff. we've been talking all tight about the delegate math for bernie sanders. so there's the super delegates, let's forget those. let's talk about the pledged delegates. these are the states to come and the delegates left. let's set this up for people back home. based on our nbc math we had coming into tonight, the state of washington, this gets complicated. we haven't added to the delegates. you guys won big there. let's estimate you're still going to pick up 35 there. we think you came into tonight down about 210 in the pledged delegate category. now, you're going to lose new york tonight. we're not sure what the exact breakdown is going to be. tell me if this is fair. why don't we estimate for the purposes of this conversation, you guys are going to lose 25 delegates net tonight. so 235. you need to make up 235 pledged delegates in these states with this number of delegates, and just take me through what you see here that tells you that you can erase that. >> i think if you look, obviously the big state here is california. a big win there would get you
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lots of delegates. oregon is a state that should be very, very good for the senator. these states, we have won all the states around these states. these states would seem to be prime territory for the senator. senator is doing well with latino voters across the country. indiana, a state he's going to do well in. it's possible to run all of these states. new jersey has a lot of delegates. a lot of delegates on the board. 235, that's only half the number in one state. >> can i ask, though, like people look at the demographics of what happened here in new york tonight. this looks like a double-digit loss. you look at the demographics of new jersey, very similar. and people would say, if you can't come into new york and keep it in single digits there, how do you turn around and do it in new jersey or for that matter, maryland. maryland has the largest african-american population of any state in the new york. this is a state that struggled to break 30% with african-americans. >> for one thing, the secretary and her people should be congratulated for their victory tonight, no doubt about it.
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but she had a special relationship with the people of new york. she was elected here twice as a new york senator. we always knew this was going to be a very tough state, closed primary. the fact that she's done very well in new york doesn't necessarily mean the same thing in other states. new jersey is a state where i think we are doing very well right now. >> when you look a week from tonight, we'll be talking about pennsylvania, maryland, delaware, connecticut, rhode island. with the loss in new york, with the 235 or so pledged delegate gap, is it fair to say you're in must-win territory in all of these states? >> i don't think you have to win all of them. but i think you have to win -- certainly, pennsylvania, becomes a very, very important state in this process. we're doing very well there. certainly our internal polls are much better than some of the public polls that are out there. we should do very, very well there. when we get past the 26th, you go into may with one state a week, we have the possibility of winning every single state in that month -- every single week in that month. and on june 5th, june 7th is the big day.
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we'll have new jersey, california, and a bunch of other states. >> let me ask you this. the clinton people would come back with this. we're looking at the delegate math. let's say you somehow did the race, 235, and got the pledge again. what you hear from the clinton people, she's still winning the popular vote. you want to be able to tell the super delegates, hey, the people are on our side, you have no choice but to do it as well. the clinton people say, even if you do that, the popular vote still goes to hillary clinton. >> but that popular vote doesn't include what's happening in all the caucus states. which brings down the number substantially. and when we get to the convention, at the end of the day, the democrats will have to decide who they want to elect in terms of who will be best in november. bernie sanders is a much more electable candidate in november. very important for democrats. the other thing that you haven't pointed out is we picked up a number of delegates, a lot of these caucus states have a sort of iterative process. and we've done a very good job at picking up additional delegates at each one of those levels. we've picked up delegates in
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nevada, we're going to pick up delegates, i believe, in iowa, washington state, even though, you know, we won 70/30. the outcome in delegates could eventually become 80/20 or even in a really big turnout in washington state, we could sweep the delegates in washington state. so a lot of opportunities to pick up delegates in the caucus process, as well. >> let me ask you this, though. is this a fair statement? the popular vote and pledged delegate count, if you are not leading at least one of those counts when june 7th finishes up, when we finish this primary process, you don't have a claim to get them to flip? >> i don't think that's the case. we're going to go to the convention. it is extremely unlikely that either candidate will have the requisite number of policemened delegates to get to this number, right? so it's going to be an election determined by the super delegates. and super delegates are largely elected officials -- >> who are overwhelmingly right now announced for hillary clinton. if you can't coming to them and
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say, we won the pledged delegate count, you have to honor the will of the people. if you can't say, we won the popular vote, you have to honor the will of the people. if they already want to be with hillary clinton and they can say, hey, she won the popular vote, she won the pledged delegate vote, how can you flip them after the primaries? >> because they are going to want to win in november. if the polls continues to show bernie sanders is a much stronger candidate in the general election, and that's for a few reasons. he bridges out a lot of young people to the process, he's extremely popular with independent voters. if you look at open auxs and open primaries, he wins independents 65/35, 70/30. and in november, only about a quarter of the population is democrats. if you can't create a coalition with independent voters, you can't win the white house. you can't win the senate. you can't bring additional people into the house. this is what has to be built in november. it has to be democrats along with independents to defeat the republicans. >> because you know as well as i do, if june 7th comes and depose and hillary clinton has won the
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pledged delegate count and one the popular vote, there are going to be calls for you the sanders campaign to make a decision to unite around her. you're saying instead of that, you will spend those months, those weeks in the summer trying to flip super delegates to bernie sanders before the convention? >> at this point, yes, absolutely. >> okay, jeff weaver, campaign manager for bernie sanders, thanks for the time. >> thanks. >> that was remarkable. jeff weaver, it's a kindness for you to be here and walk us through that. >> thanks for stopping by. thanks to steve kornacki, as well. >> at this point, we've covered a lot this last segment. we'll take a quick break here. our coverage resumes on the other side.
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is. we are back, mindful of the impact of what we just heard and witnessed on our air, that last segment, we're going to thoroughly talk about that. we have a guest who has been very patient to talk to us. however, while democrats have consoled themselves saying, at least we're not the republican party this session, the problem is for a lot of democrats, they have chosen teams in their own way and split apart. the sports metaphor is intentional. chris matthews will tell us the rest from brooklyn bridge park. chris? >> thank you, brian. i'm here with kareem abdul-jabb abdul-jabbar, the highest scorer in the history of the nba, and an author, as well, all these
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years since. and you're with hillary? >> yes, i am. >> tell us how a hillary future should inspire us? >> i think hillary will look out for the middle class, which i think is the most important thing for our country. if the middle class is not given the opportunity to thrive and do better, this country will go downhill, and i don't want to see that. hillary wants to be inclusive. she wants everybody to get a shot at the american dream. i'm all for that. >> hillary clinton gave a very positive, very inclusive speech just now, in accepting victory here in new york, a double-digit victory. did you notice how that differs from trump and his -- how does he get his 51%? the same way? it looks like he's not going it the same way. >> trump talks about himself and what he's going to do and it's all about portraying himself in such grandiose terms, that everybody is going to follow him. and he thinks that he's like,st he's the messiah almost, you know? it's not realistic and i don't
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think he can deliver on all his ridiculous promises. >> what do you think in the american mind-set has led people to -- so many of them. i know it's a minority, but a plurality of republican voters to go for? what's going on? >> i think they're dissatisfied with the way that our political process has gotten gridlocked and can't function and just things for ordinary people don't get done, and all the politicians are worried about is getting more money, so they can get re-elected on the next term. it's really become not focused on the people of this country, when need -- >> well, what's in his message, though? it isn't regular conservatism. it's the great man theory. the man on horseback. what is it that arrests the -- look at the people tonight they've all voted for. >> i think he kind of sees himself kind of like mussolini on horseback. the man on horseback? he's going to do it all. and he can't do it all. >> let's talk about the debates coming up, with hillary. we were talking about it earlier
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with brian and rachel, if we have an asymmetric voice choice, between hillary clinton and he's selling this new hybrid kind of politics of the right, i guess you've got to call it, the politics of the right, what kind of debate is that? >> it's going to be an interesting debate, i know that. because they're going to be talking on issues that go right past each other. so, how are we going to make sense out of that? >> well, we're going to have to. >> we'll try. >> we'll have you on to talk about your book that's come out, "writings on the wall." we'll be back. kareem abdul-jabbar, it's been an honor. back to you brian and rachel, in the warmer parts of new york city. >> something you never think you'll say, thank you, chris, thank you, kareem. >> i would say, the panel is unified. everybody in the studio is unified, we're all ready to vote for kareem. >> nicole wallace and i will both work for his campaign. kareem, we're with you.
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>> we're going to take a final break for this hour and when we come back at the top of the hour, so much to talk about, including what we just heard outlined, the bernie sanders path to the nomination, on a night that would indicate otherwise. we'll be back after this.
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welcome back at the top of the hour. a view of lower manhattan. the brooklyn bridge in the foreground. the night of the new york primary, which in the days as it approached, felt more serious and consequential than merely one state's primary. tonight's results have borne that out. you see the blue atop the empire state building. that is because the second call of the night was for the democrats. it was red earlier. this is why it's in blue. at 39 minutes past the closing of the polls,


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