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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  April 20, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT

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year, and electronic voting probably won't help with the show biz matters of it, but there's also the question of make it's screwing things up. maybe it crashes in the middle of proceedings, right? nothing like a technology fail to rile up the souls in cleveland, and the suspicion that a new process controlled by the rnc -- so even more doubt about the process. so we'll see. one more thing to debate. should we e-vote? 89 days to cleveland. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you tomorrow. sorry i'm 44 seconds late. >> there's just going to be a little somewhere booing. >> whether there's clicking, there will be booing. >> rachel, before you go, an almost personal question. i'll take it one step away from
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personal. can you imagine -- can you imagine breaking up with someone over how they vote? >> ooh. >> no, you can't. >> no. never. never. >> then -- >> meh -- no, it's hard, though. >> okay, but you have to think about it. >> yeah. /s in tonight's election confession there's one who had to think about it. >> i have heartache in advance. >> yeah. it's one of those years. >> thanks, lawrence. good night. also tonight, in the war room, the indiana mystery. not a single poll has been taken in the state that could determine the republican presidential nomination. and an explosive charge today against the bernie sanders campaign from president obama's
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former campaign strategist, but first the stop trump movement continues even though the only win they had in the entire state of new york last night was in donald trump's neighborhood. >> our country is going to hell. >> he yells a lot. >> get him outta here. >> you don't hear me up here complaining and whining. >> i think it's such a bad system. it's so unfair. >> i think it's a good process. let's just let it play out. >> he's helping donald trump. >> i'm not interested in his opinion. >> it never ends. it never ends. >> we don't want to handle the general election gift-wrapped to hillary. >> we'll fire hillary. you know, i did well with that fired. >> what a time to be alive. >> the race for the democratic nomination is in the homestretch and victory is in sight. >> i don't think that's the case. look, we're going to go to the convention. >> we have a path towards victory, which we are going to fight to maintain.
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>> who would have known this was going to happened. this is "the last word on campaign 2016." every happened exactly as expected in the brim year election last night in new york, but even when everything happens exactly as expected, the news media has a way of getting very excited about it, as if it's, you know, big news, that everything happened exactly as expected. the two new york residents came out winners in the democrat and republican primary. anything else would have been really big news. the biggest news, according to "new york times" front page photo placement and headline was -- trump wins big, but a closer look shows, hmm, not as big as you think. donald trump did win, 60% of the republican vote, but by wins 58% of the democratic vote, hillary clinton won more voteses than donald trump and all of the candidates combined.
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bernie sanders won 238,000 votes more than donald trump ace big win made him the third biggest votegetter in the state of new york yesterday. winning big in new york state is not winning the 525,000 votes that donald trump won. winning big in new york state is winning millions of votes, like chuck schumer did in his last senate reelection campaign, when he won 67% of the vote. and hillary clinton's senate reelection campaign, she won 67% of the vote. that was a tradition established by her predecessor, democrat daniel patrick moynihan in his senate reelection campaign in 199 , had he won 67% of the vote. that's what winning big in the state of the new york looks like.
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two thirds of the vote. millions, millions of votes. last night donald trump did not win enough votes to be elected mayor of new york city, but he did get a lot closer to the republican presidential nomination. >> we don't have much of a race anymore based on what i'm seeing on television. senator cruz is just about mathematically eliminated. >> ted cruz is doing everything he can to keep the race alive. today ted cruz made a late addition to his schedule stopping at the spring meeting of the republican national committee in florida. time is reporting that several staffers met with members of the republican national committee to make the case for ted cruz as the party's stronger republican nominee. here is ted cruz today. >> what is clear today is that
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we are headed to a contested convention. nobody is able to reach 1237. i'm not going to reach 1237, and donald trump is not going to reach 1237. we're going to arrive in cleveland with me having a ton of delegates and with donnell having a ton of delegates. and at that point it is going to be a battle to see who can earn the support of a majority of the delegates elected by the people. the only condition in which i would leave the race is if it was clear there was no path to victory. at this point we are headed on a path to victory. >> at a rally in indianapolis today, donald trump continued to attack the republican nominating system. >> it's a rigged, crooked system that's designed so that the bosses can pick whoever they want and that people like me can't run. it's a rigged system.
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it's rigged for the lobbyists. it's rigged for the donors, and it's rigged for the special interests. it's dishonest. they can take the delegates, put them in airplanes and fly them to resorts. they can have dinners with them. put them in hotels. severalally what they're saying is they can buy the election. i can buy more elections than they ever thought of, believe me, but i think it's such a bad system. it's so unfair, and it really is. i call her crooked hillary. i can tell you, this is a crook system. today the john kasich campaign complained about the stop trump movement's failure in new york, saying they have to do better next week. they said the never trump moment missed opportunity to take delegates away from donald trump in more than half a dozen new york congressional districts last night by not engaging in any serious ways. a repeat effort by never trump forces on april 26th would put donald trump on track to win the nomination on the first ballot. joining us now, katy packer founder of our principles and
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anti-trump pac, the deputy campaign manager for the romney campaign in 2012, and ms. flores, a former rnc deputy communications direct soy alex eisenstat, who is outside that hotel where the spring meeting is occurring in hollywood. katie packer, i spoke to you last night asking what you po made of the situation in new york. i wasn't able to report all your reactions in all the other constitution we had to deal with on the air, but was this a failure of the stop trump movement last night in new york? >> it's hard to fail at something you adopt actually try. we didn't actually try to succeed in new york. we saw the handwriting on the wall early that this was donald trump's home state. it was a state where he enjoyed a lot of sort of notoriety. he was able to attack senator
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cruz for his new york values comments. so it wasn't a particularly fertile state for us, but in all our calculations, we didn't anticipate him losing any delegates, so the fact he lost five was, you know, sort of good news for us. looking forward, our math hasn't really changed regardless of new york, because new york wasn't something we looked at as something we had to win to keep him under 1237, so we're very confident we're on track to keep him under 1237. we will be going to an open convention. it's not rigged. it's hard to imagine that he thinks the establishment would rig this for ted cruz. it's not a rigged process. the people have voted. he just hasn't liked the outcome in a few of those places. we are going to go to an open quepgs. the delegates are going to represent those states, and we'll see who this el choose to be the republican standard bearer. katie, what about john kasich's accusation that you
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guys could have possibly changed the story in six congressional districts in new york? >> i think what john weaver meant to say is thank you for all that you've done so that we're still in the race at this point, because donald trump would have this if it weren't for our efforts. to that i'll just say you're welcome, john weaver, we're happy to be part of the team. >> so your position is sorry, those districts were out of reach, there's nothing we could have done. >> i think the kasich campaign is busy, we know our strategy and resources, and we're looking to use those resources in the most efficient way possible and be good stewards to the donors who have contributed. we just didn't think it was a wise use of our resources to try to play the way that john weaver thought we should play, so i think he should focus on their campaign and we'll focus on ours. here's what ted cruz said today about john kasich. >> john kasich has no path
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whatever, he's lost now i think 31 states president he's won a total of one, his home state. hi plan parent rests on losing 49 states going to the convention and having all of the delegates say the guy that lost every state in the union except his home state, that should be our nominee. that quite simply is not going to happen. >> sarah, ted cruz is talking about the only guy who took a delegates away from donald trump last night >> john kasich is running fourth in a three-man race. hi argument was he could prevent donald trump from getting significant delegates in the northeast. i think him now complaining that the fae rest weren't helps him out is a bit of whining after the fact. john kasich is still the spoilers in this race, it's just he's become more and more irrelevant. i guess we're all happy he took five delegates. >> but sarah, if john kasich was
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not in that race last night, donald trump would have had is 00% of the delegates. ted cruz wouldn't have taken one. >> that may be true in new york. donald trump's home state. even john kasich was able to win, but look at all the races we've had so far. ted cruz got more votes in wisconsin than donald trump got in the entire state of new york, so -- and obviously same in texas as well. john kasich is siphoning off votes, and i do think it's time for him to see the writing on the wall. he came in third in michigan. he said he would be a formidable candidate in new york. that wasn't true. >> alex, the kasich and cruz teams making the case in hollywood, florida, today. how did it go for them? >> well, look, both teams spent the entire day here. you have the upper echelons of the cruz campaign, jeff roe
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spent the entire day here in florida. you had a lot of kasich advisers, and then both candidates came in. so that really just goes to show you how high the stakes are for both of these candidates. they're really making a play for a contested convention, and trying to make a play for delegates. all the members -- all 168 members are here this week and they'll all by delegates at the convention. >> any plans for donald trump to show up down there, alex, that you know of? >> it's not expected that donald trump is going to show up, but what we do know is that two of his top eighth paul manafort and rick riley, who have kind of taken control, pushed corey lewandowski to the side, they're going to do a presentation. rick riley was roaming the has today he is making moves to work delegates. >> let's listen to what john
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kasich had to say about his candidacy. >> i'm not interested in stopping anybody. i'm interested in helping this country to get on its feet and have economic gains and prosperity. i'm not interested in running a campaign against anybody. i'm not interested at all about being against somebody. i'm for me and for the ideas and the team that i can put together to get this country moving in the right direction. >> katie packer, that's the same candidate whose team said where was the stop trump movement when we needed them? >> i'm not going to tell the kasich campaign how to run their campaign. there are smart people. beth hansen, their expand manager, was actually my first bot on a presidential campaign, somebody i admire a lot. they're going to run their campaign and have to make their decision about what they do moving forward. we're very, very interested? stopping trump. i think it's remarkable that trump is attacking the system, talking about lobbyists. he's the only guy who has a
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lobbyist as a manager. he's brought in rick riley, who's certainly part of the establishment and ran a disastrous campaign and drove scott walker's candidacy into the ground, somebody who was a bright shining star for our party. he's the people he's entrusting his effort to. they just haven't been able to organize themselves off a paper sack so far. we'll see how things go, but we feel very good. katie packer, sara flores, and alex isenstad thismt, thank you. president obama's former campaign manager, who as endorsed hillary clinton, says that the bernie sanders campaign is perpetrating a fraud, that's the word he used, now that the sanders campaign has lost new york, and is continuing to fund raise with no path to victory. that's the accusation made by david plouffe. and the campaign war rooms are where the sleep-deprived
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strategists try to figure out their next move in a constantly changing environment. there's no pressure quite like it. we will take you inside the war room tonight with two campaign pros, who have been there to plot what happens next. the e-class has 11 intelligent driver-assist systems. it recognizes pedestrians and alerts you. warns you about incoming cross-traffic. cameras and radar detect dangers you don't. and it can even stop by itself. so in this crash test, one thing's missing: a crash. the 2016 e-class. now receive up to a $3,000 spring bonus on the e350 sport sedan. or if you're young or old.are if you run everyday, no matter who you are a heart attack can happen without warning. if you've had a heart attack, a bayer aspirin regimen can help prevent another one. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen.
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there are five primaries next week. we think we're going to do well, and we have a path toward victory, which we are going to fight to maintain. >> that was bernie sanders last night. the senator was at home in vermont today, taking the day off from campaigning, when president obama's former campaign chief strategist said that the sanders campaign is perpetrating a fraud by fund-raising after they have lost any path to vikt torrie after last night's loss in new york. that's next.
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i think we should've taken a tarzan know where tarzan go! tarzan does not know where tarzan go. hey, excuse me, do you know where the waterfall is? waterfall? no, me tarzan, king of jungle. why don't you want to just ask somebody? if you're a couple, you fight over directions. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. oh ohhhhh it's what you do. ohhhhhh! do you have to do that right in my ear?
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in an explosive charge today against the bernie sanders campaign, former obama campaign strategist david plouffe tweeted this -- sander has run a stungingly strong campaign fueled by passionate supporters. but raising money stating you have path to nomination is fraud. there has been no direct response from the sanders campaign to the charge of fraud by david plouffe, but just an hour ago tad devine said this to rachel maddow. >> bernie's made a commitment to go through the end and i'll tell you why. millions are part of this campaign. they've contributed, participated as volunteers. making phone calls. more than a million people have
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come to events around the country, so all of those people who have been such a big part, he wants to give them an opportunity to vote for him. we think we can win more states. we think we can prove to the democratic leadership when this process is over, he will by far by the strongest candidate. if we can make that case and win it, we would hope the party would endorse him. >> joining us ann lewis, a senior advisory to hillary clinton's campaign in 2008, and jonathan alter, and a columnist for "the daily beast." ann lewis, what is your reaction to david plouffe's accusation of fraught for continuing to raise money now that, as david sees it, the sanders' campaign has for path to victory. >> let me say first i have agreed regard for david plouffe. even before the 2008 campaign and then i saw how smart he is. i hope people take him
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seriously. don't just disregard what he has to say. senator sanders and his team have some very tough decisions to make. yes, as david said, they have run a very strong campaign, but look at the bottom line. hillary clinton has gotten 10 million votes so far in this primary. the first candidate on either side to do so, despite i might say some of the excitement about some of those other candidates. she's got more than 2 million more votes than senator sanders, and yes 240-plus more pledged delegates. now, overcoming that in the coming weeks, as i look at those states, as i look at where the territory is, i don't see how you can do that, so as i say, that would be up to senator sanders and his team. i hope they will also be thinks about what hillary said last night, what unites us is so much larger and so much more important than what divides us.
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>> do you believe that it's fraud to the sanders campaign to continue to raise money? >> i'm not going to use a judgmental word. i have great regard for david, but i think that's his word. i'll let other people make their own decisions how they go forward. then how do we go forward together? in ways that ensure the next president, we elect a democratic president, someone who will build on president obama's record, not get to the white house and try to tear it up. >> that was quite a bomb to toss into this thing and fraud is the strongest possible word that david plouffe could have used. >> yeah, i don't think it's really the right word for this political circumstance. fraud implies, you know, some sort of violation of the law this is a judgment call. it's just funny the different positions that people are in. xfs the obama people, people
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like david plouffe making this argument to the hillary people and others on hillary side were saying don't tell us this is over, you know, we're going to keep fighting and raising money, taking this all the way to the end of the primaries, and now they're singing a bit of a different tune. this is april 2008. this is where this campaign was at this time in 2008. i was taken aback by the remark that senator obama's made. they're elitist and out of touch. they're not reflective of the values and beliefs of americans. certainly not the americans that i know. not the americans i grew up with. >> and ann lewis, you remember those daze well.
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senator clinton did not drop out until every vote was counted. that she stepped aside. so it seems it would be kind of difficult for the clinton campaign to expect something different from the sanders campaign this time? i know how hard it is. everybody has worked so hard, and then you sit down and look at the numbers and you have to think about where you're going to go and how you get there. if you look at her in 2008, what is it we do from here on out? for people i don't know who have been excited about this campaign
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that's what campaigns should be about. i understand what you're going through. maybe, as i said, just earlier. playable that's one more thing that unites us. we've been in the experience of finally a campaign that is not going to success, and there comes a time they could have the right to vote, but how do you go forward? what issues do you talk about? that's going to be very important. >> it's quite true they did start pulling her punches some, in a sensible way. he didn't try to deck obama since she was pretty sure he was going to be the nominee. sanders will face that issue. he also has an opportunity. unlike 2008, there are big differences on platform issues, so, for instance, he could say,
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like, i want to devote a lot of time and attention to this free college idea, push an idea, get that in the democratic platform, have the democratic party stand for that, and maybe get some smaller victories that aren't the nomination to show for all of his efforts. jonathan alter and ann lewis, thank you both for joining us tonight. i really appreciate it. >> thanks a lot. >> thank you. coming up we're going inside the war room to plot 9 next steps in the presidential campaign. with hydrogenated oil...
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i used to like that song. last night was a late night for all of the campaigns, but every night is a late night in the campaign war rooms. we'll be going inside the last word's war room tonight with two veterans of presidential campaigning to plot the next moves in a state that could decide the republican presidential nomination, but where not a single poll has been taken. here's the rule for getting into the last word war room -- you have to have been in a real presidential campaign war room. here's the way it looked out on the campaign trail today. >> a very tough loss. bernie sanders is off the campaign trail today >> she practically has put this race out of reach for senator sanders. >> aides are plodding the next step. >> he would have to win every state going forward by double
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digits. >> we had a great primary last night. >> energized in a way we have just not seen. >> donald trump is looking harder and harder to stop. >> trump has the math on his side. >> they want to come into indiana with five, six wins in a row under their belt. >> we had a great night last night, i want to tell you, that was something. >> your name is jake america. i checked his driver's license. that's actually his last name >> america first, folks. it's called america first. >> what's more important for the country? your becoming the republican nominee or stopping donald trump from becoming the nominee? >> the most important thing we need to do in this country is get this country moving again. >> this is the most definitive trump has been about moving to a contested convention. >> we're headed to a contested convention. >> you know it's a rigged system. >> do you agree that the system is rigged. >> what i agree is that the democratic process works. >> lyin' ted, lies, oh, he lies. >> the rules have not been
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tested in this way in more than a generation. >> donnell's desperation shows that he's skafrd when the people decide. >> the headache shaking and photo ops and selfies. >> do you want to do an interview? do you want something to tell the people of america? >> this is life on the campaign trail.
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flonase. six is greater than one changes everything. the last word with lawrence o'donnell is brought to you by -- tonight in the campaign war room, battleground inup. next tuesday, rhode island, connecticut, pennsylvania, delaware and -- but the first stop today was indiana. >> you love indiana, right? the hoosiers. i wasn't supposed to be here today. i'm supposed to be here in two weeks, but i had to come early. i came early, i said what are we doing? let's go to indiana. >> he had to um early, because indiana is the biggest delegate prize on the campaign trail before the time primary in california on june 7th. if he loses indiana, he might have no chance of securing the republican nomination on the first ballot at the convention. that's why donald trump's first stop today was in indiana, and
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that's why the first thing on the agenda today in the trump campaign war room the morning after the big win in new york was indiana. donald trump's first stop? indiana was a very private event. cameras could only get close enough to see the black suvs pulling up to the governor's residence where donald trump met with mike pence. chris christie, wlofs nowhere to be seen last night in new york was with donald trump at the governor's residence to provide the introduction of the republican presidential front-runner to the republican governor of indiana. joining us now, two people who have been in the war room, howard dean, a former governor of vermont, former dnc chairman, and a former presidential candidate. hillary clinton supporter. he's also an msnbc political analyst. also rick tyler, former national spokesman for ted cruz and msnbc contributor. in the republican dynamics tell us the importance of first top
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indiana, first stop mike pence. >> well, indiana is a state with a lot of delegates, 57 at stake. the reason they get so many for a small state is they've been so good to the republican party, they continue to win -- indiana continually votes for republicans over democrats in the general election. but indiana, look, i think is a bit of a risk for donald trump. because it's a winner take all state. indiana looks a lot like iowa, has a lot of evangelical voters, probably the most conservative governor in the country arguably, but at the same time you have to argue if donald trump concedes those delegates over to ted cruz and makes his path to winning the 1237 very, very difficult. if i'm in the war room for donald trump, i have to make sure i get to cleveland with the majority of delegates. if i don't, it would be tough for me to have the nomination.
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howard dean, you've been a candidate who needs those kinds of people, the first stop today, going to the governor's mansion, what do you make of that in the strategic move of the day. >> as you know, i've been wrong about trump every week, but he ran on his gut for a very long time. now he has to run from here. this is tough for him. he has a lot of people around her, longtime strategists, i think this is absolutely fascinating. the republicans are always fascinating, because they have winner take all states, which we don't have. he's got to do this in indiana, two weeks in the whole state with 57 delegates. that's a huge number for the republican party i think this is fascinating to watch, the conversion of this guy who was so outrageous he got $2 billion
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worth of free media time. >> isn't this a sign of the professionalization of the war room. >> yes. >> i'm not sure they had a war room three weeks ago. >> absolutely not. >> he can't win without doing this. i'm amazedd -- if he's able to discipline himself, i think he'll be a more -- >> they're going into a state without a poll. how do you go in there without a poll? >> you know, what's fascinating about the trump campaign, they don't seem to do any internal polling. the cruz campaign has consist listen oy done the internal polling. >> let me stop you right there. no question if your mind that a professional campaign like the cruz campaign has polling of indiana that it's not released to us. >> that's absolutely correct. they want to know -- when you're plotting out your delegate
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strategy, i've got to know, first the intel on what's going on, and what is the delegate allocation. like new jersey is a winner take all state. is cruz going to spend energy there? probably not. i can't pick off south dakota, montana, two interesting states, washington and oregon who are largely -- they've done really well. but then the big question will be california. and they have -- that will decide whether they'll get that number or not going to get that number. if he risks going to indiana and not california, like i say, it's a dicey proposition. i will tell you this, lawrence. the conversation i think that happened in the war room yesterday is donnell, you won new york, because you showed
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some discipline, and you need to continue this on. they are really on him about looking more presidential. it was a little better today. >> he appears to be listening. >> lyin' ted became senator cruz. and hillary clinton was not crooked --. today in the campaign trail, he went back, so they don't have control of him verbally on the campaign trail yet. he doesn't get the angry people who are thrilled to tell it like it is, as they say, but if he goes over too far, he doesn't get the professional political class, and as the convention gets closer, they're more and more in charge. >> these delegates, especially
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these delegates, if he doesn't get there on the second ballot, the number one thing i can tell you, how will you turn around they negatives? if you have those numbers are so high, how can you beat hillary clinton? that's the number one question that delegates will be asking him. >> howard, no matter what they're talking about in the war room, there's a map of indiana in every war room and a map of california in every war room, and every minute they're brains are switching back and forth. you've got to win indiana, but it doesn't matter if you don't win california. >> that's right. >> california a hugely expensive state to campaign in. >> unbelievably expensive. trump everybody knows who he is, he's got an estimated $2 billion worth of free media. nobody can match that. i appreciate you both joining me.
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coming up, have you ever broken up with someone because of who they voted for? it's happening this year. it really is. election confessions is next. ♪ if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis
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more than allergy medicine alone. so you can breathe, and sleep. better than a catnap. shut your mouth and say goodnight, mouthbreathers. breathe right. time for tonight's election confessions. we need to dim the lights for this one. we have a secret ballot in this country, but how secret are you? about who you're voting for this year. it seems more people are keeping more secret about this election than ever before, and election confessions, an nbc news experiment is collecting those secrets. you can call our text your election confessions to 424-353-2016. you must be 18 or older to vote and to participate in election
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confessions. message and data rates may apply. that's your warning. now, here is just a small sample of what we've collected so far. number one -- my boyfriend is voting for trump. too embarrassed to tell my family and friends. good judgment, character and decency really do matter. he's shown me who he really is by his vote. it's over! wow, this campaign is breaking up relationships. here's another one -- i've always been a democrat, and all of my friends think i'm a democrat, but the truth is i'm voting for trump. i'm afraid to tell my friends, because they will not accept it, but i'voting for him. wow. secrets that are out there. and then there's this -- i am going to vote for bernie, but i am pulling for hillary.
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figure that one out. here's another confession we found. i discussed trump as a viable candidate with republican friends, but in actuality he terrifying me. people think i'm conservative, but i'm a closeted liberal who voted for president obama twice, and will vote democrat in the next election as well. no indication of where that person lives, so we don't know why that person is closeted about being a liberal. and our last election confession tonight -- i want to vote for hillary, but fear too many bernie supporters may vote for trump if she gets the nomination. so for first time in my life, voting strategically for bernie! never trump. you know, there is such a thing as over-thinking this stuff. you can see more election confessions at
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electionconfession.com. voting strategically. i don't think i've ever done that. i think it's always been, you know, from, well, the heart and the head, but not strategically. coming up, a trump delegate will join us, along with an indiana delegate hunter for john kasich.
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at your local mercedes-benz dealer. even though voting in the indiana presidential primary is two weeks away, republicans have already chosen delegates in indiana. john kasich's campaign has claimed victory in the fight for delegates. today donald trump called on indiana voters to fight what he always calls a rigged system. >> the only way we can beat the dishonest rigged system is by you continuing to come out and vote. you're going to get your chance in a few weeks. come oat and vote, vote big league. joining us is pete seat, a consultant for the indiana john
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kasich campaign. also with us bill springer delegate for the 8th congressional district, who favors donald trump for president. bill springer, tell us how this process worked, and -- i want to clarify for the audience off the bat, if donald trump gets a big win in indiana, those delegates he wins will be pledged to him on the first ballot, and everything -- all this maneuvering is about who are the delegates loyal to on the second ballot. is that a fairway of describing what we're talking about? >> uh, yes, it is. that's -- that's it in a nutshell, yes. >> so, bill, tell us about the process and how you felt it worked in terms of a good representation of this group of delegates. >> i personally am in the 8th district, and i'm for donald trump, but if ted cruz wins the
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election in the 8th district,ly support ted cruz, whether it goes one ballot or 1,000 ballots. but we've got most of the people it seems like have already made up their minds before the first ballot has been cast and have been put in articles and political.com and "the indianapolis star" but they wouldn't vote for this one or that one on a bet. i don't see how these people can -- it's the people's vote. it is not the personal delegate's. >> and pete, you were working for the kasich campaign and apparently successful by all accounts of having rounded up more kasich-leaning delegates for that second ballot possibility than anyone else got. >> well, yeah, i wish i could take credit for it, lawrence and say it was my handiwork, but the reality is delegates in indiana,
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the individuals chosen, want to win the white house, and if you look at the polls, the last 15 fowls head to head between hillary clinton and john kasich, he wins in a huge numbers. you can't say that about donald trump, you can't say that about ted cruz. if a second ballot happens, the job of delegates and the mind of indiana delegates is to pick the person who can win in november, and then do the job of president. that's why so many of them are inclined to support john kasich. >> bill, your reaction to that? i'm hearing two definitions. >> i tell you, in indiana we have what they call the 465 beltway that goes around indianapolis. those people in indianapolis, it's a sorry thing to say they haven't won an election in is a years in indianapolis. i'm just stating the facts, but if mr. seat and some of the other paid consultants would get out in the hinterland and listen to what's going on, trump is
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bringing new voters right and left to the republican party, so how can he even question that he would -- he would be far better than hillary. >> bill, that's not what he said, though. let me try to focus you, he said all the polls show, and they do, that donald trump is the worst candidate to send into the general election against hillary clinton or against bernie sanders. they both beat him by a bigger margin than anybody else in the field. when you as a delegate are presented with that projection. is it your reaction you're not here trying to select a winner, but to follow the dictate of the voters? >> i am going to follow the dib at a time of the voter. as a matter of fact john kasich will come in dead last in indiana, so why should he have the majority of the delegates? >> pete, your answer? >> i respect bill's beliefs and opinions, but there's no point
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to this entire exercise if republicans do not win the white house in november. here's -- one point i would make, too, if donald trump is to win the state of indiana like he believes he will, he should be thanking the indiana republican party, because according to their rules, the rules they submitted to the rnc, the atlarge delegates are bound on the first ballot, but that's contrary to state law. the state law of indiana does not bound atlarge delegates at all on any ballot. so if he wants to complain and whine and moan about a rigged process, he should be thanking the indiana gop if he ends up winning the state. >> we're going to have to leave it there. pete seat and bill springer, thank you both for joining us. chris hayes is up next. as goes new york. well, let's play "hardball."
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good evening. i'm chris matthews. it was a big night for the home teams in new york. donald trump cleaned the clocks of both his republican rivals putting another roadblock in front of the so-called stop trump movement. we begin with the changing dynamics of the democratic fight. hillary clinton took a big step forward in her path to the nomination winning big over bernie sanders this her adopted state. her victory is major set back for senators after returning to vermont late last night took the day off for the campaign trail to recharge. clinton has won 19 states across the country. look at the map, and up the east coast where she hopes to build upon her success. the race turns to five north eastern states that hold their primaries next week. new polls and two of them show clinton ahead. no surprise there.

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