tv Morning Joe MSNBC April 25, 2016 3:00am-6:01am PDT
the point is, we have to reform many of our economies, but the answer to reform is not to start cutting ourselves off from each other. >> good morning. you're listening to president obama. he's speaking to an industrial group in hannover, germany, addressing a number of issues of international concern. also announcing 250 troops headed to syria, additional u.s. military personnel. and the president will be monitoring this, addressing also the relationship between the united states and germany and how much they have done together and can do together, moving forward. good morning, everyone. it's monday, april 25th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have the macking editor of bloomberg politics and the co-host of "with all due respect," that airs at 6:00 p.m. eastern time on msnbc, mark halperin. political writer for "the new york times," nicholas confessore, and professor harold
ford jr. then we go to washington. where we find pulitzer prize winning columnist and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. and -- >> what?! >> pulitzer prize winning editorial writer for "the washington post" and msnbc contributor, jonathan capehart. good to have you all on board this morning. >> i have nowhere to begin. how was everybody's weekend? did everybody have a good weekend? was it okay? anybody do anything big this weekend? because i tell you, i was, you know, sitting home, you know, you know, in my t-shirt, reading twitter. i felt like a total loser. >> really? >> like, everybody went to see bruce springsteen play his tribute to prince. >> apparently that was very cool. >> and i'm sitting there eating corn chips. >> it's all on youtube, you can just watch it there. >> so i shouldn't feel bad? everybody was there. bruce -- >> bruce in brooklyn.
that's big. what did you do, nick? you're young. you had to have had a good time. >> i watched part of the "game of thrones" premiere until it stopped and told me i had to choose between that and "fear the walking dead." >> a horrible choice. >> meryl streep had her choice in "sophie's choice" and now you have yours. >> six of one, half dozen of another. sophie had nothing on you. >> we had major developments in politics over the weekend. >> nobody got stabbed. >> bringing things to the table that makes no sense to anybody. >> makes a lot of sense if you're not under 30 years old. >> i'm more than prince. i'm a big prince fan. i listened to that marathon -- >> incredibly talented. >> he wrote the sound track to my life. so bless his soul. >> mm-hmm. all right, so big developments in politics over the weekend.
ted cruz and john kasich are teaming up against donald trump. the campaigns announced last night that they are dividing up the primary map to clear a path for each other in select states. so far, kasich is getting the oregon and new mexico primaries to himself, while cruz has next week's indiana primary. still no agreement on the last big prize, california, where a fox news poll -- >> so, mark, this deal -- >> a little late? >> it's a little late, right? it's like you're sitting in purgatory and saying, you know, if i have a chance, i'm going to start going to church more regularly. no! i mean, it's too late, right? >> it's not mathematically too late, but the headline there called this a shock deal. others have called it a deal of desperation. if trump wins indiana or wins it big, it's over. and it's been true for a while. and this is really about indiana. this is about one step at a time. having made the deal, if cruz can't beat trump in indiana,
it's over, barring some huge -- >> everybody's been saying, trump is winning by 30, 40 points, and new york and sweeping all these -- ah, forget about that, indiana. forget about that, indiana. indiana's going to be his waterl waterloo. two polls out this week and trump's up in indiana. >> but with kasich out, there's a chance cruz could beat him there now. that's what this is about. it's about stopping him in indiana, because the symbolism of stopping him in indiana and the math of stopping him in indiana is vital, if they're going to keep him from a majority. >> but the assumption means that people who are supporting kasich or cruz dislike trump so much, that they're going to jump to the other guy to stop trump, which i just think, that's a lot of ifs and assumptions. i'm not saying you. >> they're so different. >> they're very different. >> it's less about voters that be it is about the outside groups and the super pacs. the super pac group is running pro-cruz, anti-kasich ads.
they need every dollar spent to stop trump -- >> if i'm going -- to vote for john kasich ain't no way in hell i'm voting for ted cruz. and vice versa. >> and vice versa. >> it could backfire. >> it costs ted cruz not much to cede oregon to john kasich. >> yeah. >> let's go to the polls. >> what do they do when they get to the convention. what's the new deal? say all this works, who gets the -- >> there'll now be a week of negative ads against donald trump in indiana, which before had been divided. >> which may actually help his numbers go up. >> but they didn't in wisconsin. >> okay. so donald trump has a big lead going into tomorrow's contests in the northeast. >> big lead. massive. >> in rhode island, the brown university poll gives trump a double-digit lead. 38% to john kasich's 25% with 14% for ted cruz. in pennsylvania, trump leads in the latest nbc/"wall street
journal"/marist poll, 45% to 27%. >> crushing him. >> for cruz -- and then kasich at 24%. trump is ahead in the cbs/yougov. poll. but was bemoaning the large number of unbound delegates according to pennsylvania's rule. >> it's an unfair thing. because i'm way up in pennsylvania, but in pennsylvania, i think you get 17 delegates and the rest you have to negotiate for. what is this?! what's going on?! >> come on, you know what he just said there, that's what everybody's thinking! i win pennsylvania by 20 to 25 points and then you want me to negotiate?! no! i'm negotiating directly with the voters. >> this fits right in with his brand. >> no. not only does it fit into the brand, it's time for people in my party and with democrats, too, with super delegates, which is just a total scam, and an insider's game, to just say, enough is enough. the system's rigged! you don't negotiate with party
insiders. people go to the polls, they vote, they exercise their democratic right, and then we decide who wins based on the voting. >> it sounds nice. it sounds -- >> it actually sounds like america. >> on the other hand, how many times -- >> you say it sounds nice, i say it sounds like america. >> i was going to say, how can he -- he goes state after state and acts surprised, i can't believe these are the rules! >> because he's doing that along with the people. >> on purpose. >> but he knows the rules. >> my point is, people are surprised their vote doesn't count. >> it's a ridiculous system. i'm just saying the act is a little much. >> you have some utopian vision that voters should be able to pick the party nominee. >> no, actually, voters have that utopian vision. >> i that do. >> i'm telling you, if anybody out there in the republican establishment think that they gain any points by mocking trump
for believing that if he wins a state by 20 to 25 points, he should win the delegates, and not then have to go negotiate. i tell you what, i would be raising holy hell. i just would. i would be raising hell. >> that's what we do for a living. >> i would be saying, it's a good act on his part. if i won a state by 25 poisnts and they try to take it away from me, that's all i would be talking about. i would burn their place to the ground politically and salt the earth so nothing would ever grow there again, politically. no, i would. i would say, i'm going to come back and win the nomination, i'm going to circle back around. if i don't get all these delegates i deserve politically, i'll work the next four years to destroy your political career. it is so unfair. and these super delegates, it is the same thing on the democratic side. it's a scam. it's a total scam. >> thank you. >> people are talking about bernie sanders not doing well right now. bernie sanders was screwed from
the establishment -- >> from the get-go! >> they screwed him in iowa, screwed him with delegates from the get-go. these are going to turn into irrelevant country clubs pretty soon if they don't clean this up. >> there are some states where trump has gotten more delegates than the percentage of the votes he's got. he's benefited from the system in some cases. kasich and cruz had this late deal last night. trump was up saying, perfect pitch, this is all about insiders and losers trying to stop me. today kasich and cruz are going to have to comment themselves on this deal. and it's going to be very hard. >> that's awkward. >> awkward. >> they hate each other. >> talking about process and how they're teaming up to stop trump. and trump's going to be talking about a rigged system. >> again, again, again, republicans missing their nose in front of their face, because they will end up getting ted cruz. if they somehow end up getting ted cruz, if they somehow wrangle that for themselves, that will be the worst thing ever for them. by the way, tell me about a senator in new hampshire or some other state that wants ted cruz to come campaign for him or her?
>> they don't. listen, trump's still going to get 12307. >> okay. well, i don't care if he does or doesn't. >> i think he's very likely to get -- i'm more convinced today that he can get above 1,237 heading into the convention. i think the comparison between sanders is a little bit -- i don't think sanders was mistreated by the democratic party. sanders had -- >> oh, my god! he's been screwed from the beginning with the debates, with iowa. >> oh, please! >> debbie wasserman schultz, she's not in the tank, she built the tank. >> i agree that she should have added more debates. but nick's point is halfway right. trump knew going in these rules. but it does seem weird you can win a state as big as he's winning and still have to walk away and try to figure out how to convince people -- the democrats don't have a system quite like that on our side. so we say, in that regard, there's not a fair parallel. but i think trump gets the -- >> you have something else.
>> but it's so much worse with the super delegates. like i've said before, if republicans had a scam system like democrats, with the super delegates, jeb bush would still be in the race. jeb would have gotten 500 super delegates. he could have lost the first ten primaries and found his groove and picked -- >> i was going to say, there hasn't been an election in which the super delegates went against the candidate, the actual pledged delegate lead. it hasn't actually ever been tested as a way to overrule the votes. and sanders, as well, has also won in a lot of states or has gotten more delegates than his votes the a lot of states. he's actually benefited from the caucus system. >> think about the impact, though, of having those super delegates. every night, every night, every -- from the beginning with iowa. from the beginning. >> iowa is -- >> and because of the proportional nature of this, yes, bernie sanders won the state by 87 percentage points, but with the super delegates and the fact that he'll only get one more delegate than hillary clinton, there's no -- we were saying there was no way he was going to catch up with her when
we were 10% into this game. it's so rigged on the democratic side. >> but it creates an overhang -- >> it does. >> but if he won states, super delegates would shift. >> let's go to gene robinson. >> well, joe, it would be -- your point would be, i think, more valid if bernie were not behind in regular delegates. i mean, he's getting beat in pledged delegates. so when he overtakes hillary clinton in pledged delegates, then, yes, he has an argument to the super delegates. and what happens is the super delegates do listen. now, you know, i don't like the system. i think the system is wrong. i don't think there should be super delegates. but what we saw in 2008 was that the super delegates, as the people switched from clinton to obama, the super delegates followed. they jumped ship. and that's what they would do again. i'm convinced. but, you know, there's no reason for them to now, because their candidate is winning in pledged
delegates. >> my point is, and not just for this race, for any race is it creates an air of inevitability, jonathan capehart. so let's say jeb bush loses in iowa and new hampshire and south carolina. if you turn around, he's still 500 delegates up because -- and every night -- and then you add the super delegates, which they do all time, jeb would still be getting money. his people would say, just hang in there. it just creates a dynamic that always favors -- and it was meant to, the party establishment. >> right. but as gene said, if senator sanders were winning in pledged delegates, the super delegates would listen. and also, you know, let's keep in mind that the problem that bernie sanders has is not that super delegates are all with hillary clinton. it's that he went through southeastern states, where the bedrock of the democratic party are african-americans, who did not go for him.
and so, powered former secretary clinton to huge victories that allowed her to rack up big portions of pledged delegates. so you blame the super delegate system all you want. the fact that he doesn't have a lead in pledged delegates is the problem. >> i agree. so as we pull out of the weeds here, ted cruz continued to clean up in delegate contests this weekend. >> did you see this this weekend? >> yeah. >> a good thing paul manafort came on. seriously! this guy's a fixer. he's an insider, man. >> he's claiming to fix the wrong thing, in my opinion. >> he's a fixer. >> no, no, no. >> i don't know what's going on here, but my gut is he's actually going for the -- >> he's actually very good, though. if you look at paul manafort, he came in to do the delegates, but he decided he was going to do everything else and take over the campaign -- >> you're not supposed to be talking about him. you're supposed to be talking about the candidate. it's not about him. >> he's going to the rnc and going, listen, i know that you think that donald trump is like what you see on tv, but -- i'm
telling you, he does what every washington consultant does, pats, you know, condescendingly pats the candidate on the head and says, listen, now that i'm in charge here. don't worry, everything's -- i've heard this a million times. consultants come in and he leaks the story, it gets out there that he's the savior, he leaks the rnc meeting and he's the almighty powerful one. and while he's doing all of this stuff -- >> exactly! and this is what they all do. every washington consultant, they were born -- it's in their dna. i'm going to go in, first thing i'm going to do is i'm going to fight an internal war and take over. >> they may be good at what they do, but their ego can't help themselves. they must let the world know. >> then he's talking to reporters and leaking stuff. the one thing he's supposed to do, he doesn't do! he failed miserably. >> his campaign installed supporters through local election events in maine, minnesota, south carolina, and
utah. hold on, halperin, we'll let you refute this. >> spin. >> as joe alluded to, this raises some new questions about the man who was brought on to specifically help with these delegate battles. that's his job, right? >> right? >> that's what he does. >> he's good at it. >> we're bringing him on. >> paul manafort who down played this. >> the only vote that matters is the vote that's cast when the roll call is called. on saturday, ted cruz won zero. not 36, not 6, zero delegates. what was done on saturday was simply confirming the votes of primaries. most of the conventions that happened yesterday were set in stages a month or two ago. and -- before, frankly, i was involved. >> he got absolutely pounded. absolutely pounded. this is what he's supposed to do. mark halperin, you going to spin for the establishment. >> go ahead. >> what establishment? >> for the insurgents in the trump campaign. >> he comes from washington to clean trump up, and he's leaking
that he's the grown-up, and that trump has been a clown, and that he's going to make trump a grown-up. >> well, on the delegate issue, it's -- what he just said is true. it's too little for him to fix some of the things that have already happened. that were already set in motion in terms of the delegate selection process in some of these states. if trump gets to 1,400 delegates, which is what he and the campaign are telling people, none of this will matter. what matters is, changing trump's image in order to become a strong general election candidate. what he said to the rnc, i don't think trump disagrees with. >> oh, no, trump does disagree with it, because he started saying -- >> he mocked it publicly, but they have an extraordinarily effective good cop/bad cop routine going. >> really? i don't think it's very effective. i think it's as transparent as it gets. >> i can tell you, i have not spoken with trump since these developments. i can tell you most assuredly that donald trump is not pleased. >> not pleased that he said it, but in terms of what the
strategy -- >> yeah, not pleased at all. >> but the strategy, they're in sync on the strategy, just not the fact that it came out. >> that he's going around being condescending to his candidate, like all consultants do? >> and elbowing out people. and leaking it. >> what did he leak? >> oh, please! still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> what happened at the rnc. >> he didn't put that -- >> in the strategy. you've seen it a million times. >> exactly. it was someone else. >> you're right, you're right. you guys are right. still ahead, how hillary clinton became a hawk. >> but i will say this, their -- that campaign has been almost completely leak-proof. >> it's fun to watch. >> for nine months. suddenly, we're starting to hear whispers and leaks coming out of that campaign, making it to the news. >> because there was no campaign five months ago. and now there are. >> so now there are people that come in and are leakers. >> exactly. >> and also people -- there are two camps in the campaign now,
and there are leaks between them and against each other. which is also typical in campaigns. it's nice to see this campaign becoming a lot more like a normal campaign. and leaking so you can have stories. >> but also winning a majority of the delegates. >> wait, they have -- okay, so "the new york times" magazine has a revealing new look at the candidates' appetite for intervention. we're talking about hillary clinton. and the acting secretary of the u.s. army, patrick murphy. and david jol whereley who's ru for marco rubio's seat in florida, but demands to do it without playing the fund-raising game. so will he get elected? let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> after a pretty nice weekend, we have a very active week of dangerous weather heading our way. we expect maybe one, possibly two tornado outbreaks this week alone. started last night. we didn't see many tornadoes last night, but had a lot of reports of large hail in kansas and a lot of strong, gusty winds. this was kind of our warm-up act to what we're going to experience. i think tuesday will be the peak of our severe weather this week
with another one possible on friday. let's take you to the map. the storm from yesterday has weakened. now rain in north dakota. so later today, if you're in the chicago area, all the way back down towards me peoria and spring hill, large hail and damaging winds. but tuesday, severe weather possible from san antonio to omaha. this is tornado alley. a lot of storm chasers out there. we have a moderate risk of severe weather. the second highest category and when they issue that two days ahead of time, that means the possibility of tornados and strong tornadoes, typical of late afternoon, early evening time from oklahoma city to witchta and heading towards kansas city, as the sun begins to set. so, again, today, isolated severe storms. tomorrow, looks like possible tornado outbreak in the central plains. leaving you with a shot of new york city, pretty tranquil weather after gorgeous weekend. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.
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billionaire charles koch suggested that he may be open to supporting hillary clinton for president, and that it is possible she would make a better president than her republican rivals. >> so, is it possible another clinton could be better than another republican? >> it's possible. it's possible. >> you couldn't see yourself supporting hillary clinton, could you? >> well, i -- her -- we would have to believe her actions would be quite different than her rhetoric. let me put it that way. some of the republican candidates, before we could support them, we have to believe their actions would be quite different than the rhetoric we've heard so far. >> that's pretty remarkable, actually. that -- >> it's honest. >> it really is, it's honest, and he's saying what i've heard a lot of republicans say, mark. which is a lot of republican fund-raisers quietly tell me, voting for hillary. boy, i've heard that a lot. >> keep the house and senate
hands and support hillary clinton. it's the front page "wall street journal" people, a lot of business people say hillary clinton might be their safest choice for the kind of centrist policies they're looking for. whoever the republican nominee is must change that to have a chance to win. raise money, and to build spo support. from small business people around the country. if the republican party is not seen as the party that's better for business, they cannot win. >> you know, we've heard and have been saying it on the air now for months and months and months, that we have people, mainly small business people, coming up and whispering to us, i'm going to vote for trump. that's something you never heard from the big money people. >> i do not hear them say they're going to vote for cruz. >> all the big money people, all the big money people who contribute to the republican party and have been driving it for years, almost to a -- and i would say, man, would say, i'm voting for hillary. i think that will probably change, but right now, that's
what a lot of them are saying. >> i was going to say, charles koch is not going to vote for or give money to hillary clinton. everybody's kind of overreading that interview. he's saying that if she actually is lying to everybody this whole time about her beliefs, then maybe, if, in fact, she had different beliefs under that, he would vote for her. that's not -- >> what he's saying is, if it's between hillary clinton and donald trump, he's not going to vote for donald trump. he might not vote for hillary clinton, but he's going to be -- >> but ted cruz is not super popular in their donor world that they have. but the activists of their grassroots groups actually do like ted cruz, which puts him in a difficult position. >> training. >> i think maybe charles would write in somebody or would vote for the -- >> probably vote for a libertarian, whoever's on the libertarian line. but i don't see him voting for trump or clinton. >> clinton took to twitter yesterday to respond saying is, she was quote, not interested in endorsements from people who deny climate science and try to
make it harder for people to vote. so she doesn't want the koch vote. it was another weekend -- >> she certainly takes an awful lot of money from people who -- >> whose vote that she -- >> who drill oil and make a lot of money doing the same exact thing that the koch brothers do. so that's very interesting. >> is that fair? >> also, the kochs are not deeply involved in groups or give money to groups of their own groups that fight vote rights. that's not really one of their causes. in fact, have said, that's not us, we're not into that, that's not our cause. an interesting one for her to pick. >> it's a short tweet, but both halves of it were wrong. >> it was another weekend full of massive crowds for bernie sanders in providence, rhode island, an estimated 7,000 people and near yale's campus in new haven, connecticut, some
14,000 people. but as of late, the giant turnout at events have not translated into critical wins. but he kept up the pressure all weekend long on hillary clinton, in spite of her campaign's call to tone it down. >> this campaign is doing well and will win, because we are listening to -- [ cheers and applause ] because we are listening to ordinary people and not spending half my life with the billionaires trying to hustle campaign contributions. now, what hillary clinton and what the establishment think, they think we don't have the guts to take on the private insurance companies or the drug companies. they are wrong.
>> so this is what i was schooled about last week by cokie roberts, as to why he shouldn't fall in line and get right behind hillary clinton in terms of at least supporting some of her positions or at least not attacking her on some of the issues that -- >> what were you schooled? >> i was educated. i was told i was wrong. but nick, you write in "the new york times," bernie sanders and allies aim to shape democrats' agendas after primaries. even after his chances of winning the democratic presidential nomination slip away, senator bernie sanders and his allies are trying to use his popularity to expand his political influence, setting up an ideological struggle for the soul of the democratic party in the post-obama era. aides to mr. sanders have been pressing party officials for a significant role in drafting the platform for the democratic convention in july, aiming to lock in strong planks on issues like a $15-an-hour federal minimum wage, breaking up wall street banks, and banning natural gas fracking. the pressure from mr. sanders and his allies is putting the party establishment in a
delicate position. democratic leaders are wary of steering the party too far left, but do not want to alienate sanders' supporters, whose votes mrs. clinton needs in november, or risk losing the vast new donor base mr. sanders has created. he was on "face the nation" this weekend -- >> yeah. >> can we take a look. >> sure. >> bernie sanders. >> oh, we don't have it. >> alex, what were you doing this weekend? you don't have the sound for that. you know, i've told you, sunday mornings are not for smoking dope. >> well, i've been -- >> i was watching willie's show and i re-ran willie's show and watched -- >> smoking dope. >> we've got it, actually. do you want to take a look? >> oh, la-di-da. go ahead. >> roll it. >> i was asking is whether you'll take the fight all the way to the convention and say something like, if you don't get the nomination, i would like hillary clinton to support that $15 national minimum wage, reinstate glass-steagall, come out against fracking more
forcefully. make specific requests like that. >> john, that was a very good start. you're doing well. keep going. >> i love it! by the way, cokie was lovely. it was more the people translating our conversation. >> on twitter saying, oh, cokie schooled you. >> she was great. >> she was making a very good point that bernie sanders, at some point, needs to help bring the party together. it doesn't appear he's ready to. and i think it's because he feels so strongly about some of these key issues. and i like it. i see he and elizabeth warren holding strong for what they feel is important. and they will come on board when they get a little bit of what hay need. >> with all due respect to both of them, we're all democrats. and they may disagree with some of the positions that some democrats have taken over the years. but the arrogance in thinking that they had owner in a monopoly, when believing that we ought to empower the middle class, that we ought to figure out ways to pay workers more, to make our environment cleaner and
address climate change, if they had the answers, it would make them almost like the other side. >> i think the arrogance to believe to think they should fall in line. >> but we have a long tradition in this country, you run for political office, if you don't win, you work with the people that have won. at the beginning of the show, more votes matter. ed rendell said over the last few days, if pennsylvania votes with sanders, he'll switch his vote to bernie sanders. so we've never had a situation where the super delegates didn't go with a majority of the party. but i agree that the super delegates situation needs to be changed. i think there's a tradition where you sit down with the other candidate, the winning candidate, and figure out ways in which to work together. there's an arrogance on the part of that campaign. >> there's not arrogance on the part of the campaign. >> that's not the word i would use. >> they're still in the middle of the game. >> i'm responding to what nick's article suggests. >> they've got thousands and thousands of people right now -- >> and she has millions and millions of votes. >> that are still going out to see them.
there are people that believe in him. and he has decided that he's not fighting just to win this police race, he's fighting to change the democratic party. because he is afraid, and if i were a democrat, i would be afraid of the fact that the person that was about to win the nomination was more of a neocon than either of two republican candidates. >> and more cozy with wall street. >> and more cozy with wall street than either of the republican candidates. she is pro-wall street. >> what does pro-wall street mean? >> she's grown up around billionaires. so much so that when she was saying that she was only worth $100 million, that she was not, quote, that rich. because, as you know, the people she hangs out with have nothing in common with the rank and file democrats that bernie is speaking to. >> but joe, so you ignore her entire record of public service, her entire -- >> no. >> i'm not -- >> no, i'm not ignoring it. >> but by the way, she shouldn't
listen to debbie wasserman schultz and other people saying, bernie shouldn't get out of the race now, get out of the race. >> i'm responding to what nick wrote, after the race, he's going to try to influence -- >> he should rye to influence -- >> the bernie sanders campaign began as a protest movement, and then it became a viable bid for the presidency, and it may well end again as a protest movement. i think what she's saying is her policy record on wall street, her planks and her platform for this campaign are actually quite strong. but she has these long-standing relationship, personal, financial, and political with wall street, and part of bernie sanders is saying, let's lock in some specifics with this platform, let's put our money where our mouth is and make sure the voice of the people who supported me is heard after this election is over. >> that's not unusual. >> that's not unusual. >> hold out for it. >> this is what the clintons are best at. and by the time of the convention, nick's people is absolutely right. today the sanders people want as many delegates as possible for leverage. by the time of the convention,
the clintons will have united the democratic party with a center-left coalition, with bernie sanders being given a really prominent speaking spot at the convention, his delegates are expected, a finessing of the platform, and they will come out of their convention much more united than the republicans will. >> i agree. >> jonathan capehart, final thoughts? >> i agree with what mark said. but will the damage have been done to hillary clinton for the general election, given the comments that senator sanders, that he continues to make. the attacks he continues to make against secretary clinton on the campaign trail? >> i think she needs to address them, and then that would help put them away and not focus on bernie sanders as the enemy here. >> don't be afraid. respond. >> she's for the minimum wage increase. she's for just about everything he's for. >> yeah, we'll talk. >> she's for it. >> she's for -- >> all right, jonathan capehart, we thank you so much for being here. we'll see you again tomorrow on "way too early." and the must-read opinion pages stale ahead.
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the country. and the bells at city hall in his hometown, minneapolis, chimed to the tune of his hits. bruce springsteen opened his concert on saturday with this tribute. ♪ ♪ >> yamaha also released this picture of the custom-made purple piano that was delivered to the legend's home three weeks ago. it was supposed to go on tour with him. "snl" aired a prince special,
showcasing his musical performances over the decades. the legend died on thursday. his publicist released a statement saturday saying his remains had been cremated and that the cause of death was still unknown. according to officials, it will be at least four weeks until the autopsy results are announced. by the way, a musical celebration is in the works. >> and nick, you said, you spent the weekend listening to prince. >> you know, we downloaded the greatest hits and had a little dance party with my 10-year-old, listened -- >> some of the lyrics not suitable -- >> some of them -- like, some of these songs are too sexy, don't worry about that. just enjoy the dancing. >> you were good on prince. the musician that he was. "purple rain" came -- he'd already had four or five albums before "purple rain." and his acumen and his talent as a guitarist, as a musician, having performed every instrument in his first album or
two was legendary. i thought mick jagger and paul mccartney and elton john's tweets about him were not only true, but very moving. >> you were sufficient a massive fan. how many concerts did you say -- >> 200. >> 200. >> i loved him. he's been around since i was 9 years old. i loved the guy. >> i noticed this in everybody remembering him. i was always, you know, a record guy or a cd guy or whatever. but you don't -- you didn't pick up his greatness until you saw him live. because he's not stevie wonder when it comes to song writing or paul simon. as far as song writing goes, they're over there -- no, he's not stevie. stevie's got 50 that are extraordinary. prince has 5 or 10 extraordinarily well-written songs. but anybody that's seen him live, just say he is the greatest. the stories heilemann tells about how after a show, he would
go perform two hours and do nothing but change around. he's probably the greatest performer alive. >> the concert was the beginning of the night for him. the first concert. >> just absolutely stunning. so still ahead, we have riots, guns, bribes, and a party fighting for power. how teddy roosevelt's contested convention more than 100 years ago is still shaping today's political battles. "morning joe" is coming right back. innovative sonicare technology with up to 27%
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real is making new friends. amazing is getting this close. real is an animal rescue. amazing is over twenty-seven thousand of them. there is only one place where real and amazing live. seaworld. real. amazing so 17 of the 25 states with the highest levels of income inequality have held primaries. 16 of those 17 states have been won by hillary clinton, not by you. why? >> because poor people don't vote. i mean, that's just a fact. that's the sad reality of american society. and that's what we have to transform. we have one of the lowest voter turnouts of any major country on earth. we have done a good job bring young people in. i think we have had some success
with lower income people. but in america today, in the last election in 2014, 80% of poor people did not vote. >> interesting. it's time now for the must-read opinion page. >> i disagree with that. i think that's a, an awful statement. >> you disagree with that, you disagree with the prince thing. we're re-evaluating this prince thing. i said, 10 great songs, and you said -- >> i think you're right about the 10 great songs, i just don't you think you appreciate the entire body of work. and you said elton john is 50, and you're right about that. but i think prince has 100 that everybody knows. i don't want to talk about people passing or living. i just think prince, i think the global footprint of prince may not be as big as a couple of the artists we mentioned, but his footprint here -- >> i think when elton john, let's say, 30 years from now passing away, people will be
talking about how he was an extraordinary songwriter. one of the great songwriters of our time. same with paul simon, stevie wonder, just extraordinary, from another planet. prince, you talk to anybody that's seen him live, it's the live performances. >> that just took him to the edge. >> greatest performer that we had. >> i agree with you. >> burning the clinton establishment in the "wall street journal," we'll see if you agree with this, harold and nick, you're somewhat of an expert as well, given your front page piece in "the new york times." this has been from the start, the bernie sanders show. hillary came into the race, determined to rev up the old clinton machine, to revive the clinton era, to burnish the long clinton legacy. instead, mr. sanders has forced her to betray it. he provided the sword, and she has slain the clinton democrats. she had to abandon every winning centrist new democrat position that had defined the clinton years. bill clinton left office with the highest approval rating of any president since world war
ii. mrs. clinton has spent the past six months, in essence, saying that everything he did was weak, phoney, or wrong. the nomination is hers for the taking. but the winner, politically, in this season of democratic distress is the man who burned up the clinton establishment. >> gene robinson, has bernie sanders required hillary clinton to move too far left? >> not necessarily, because this is a different time. and the public is in a very different mood from when, from when bill clinton was in office. i mean, you know, i agree only to the extent that bernie sanders, in my mind, has kind of won the ideological battle. so he continues to battle for the nomination, which i don't think he's going to get, was in terms of his influence on the democratic party, he's, he has essentially won that battle. but he's won it because this is
a different time. and you know, look at what, look at just what's happening broadly in both parties. there is a different attitude toward free trade, a different attitude or a different feeling about, is the system fixed, you know, against ordinary people. now, the one thing that's going to be, i think, the bigger issue is hillary clinton's interventionist, forward-leaning foreign policy, you could call it that, but she's much more willing to use american muscle and intervene in that way than bernie sanders, and than most americans, i believe. that's going to be an issue. >> the bernie sanders party and elizabeth warren's party. >> in the bernie sanders/hillary clinton view of the world right now, the era of big government has only just begun. they're not only talking about making government smarter,
they're talking about making it a lot bigger. and i agree with gene that is the mood of some of the country, was but not the mood of all of the country. and in a general election, if the republicans nominate someone that's tough to beat, she'll have to recalibrate her message after the convention. >> i'm confused about the idea that positions should be frozen in amber about 15 to 20 years after the fact. and bill clinton governed in a very different time. i could point to two things, raising taxes on rich people and expanding college access to people that bernie sanders wants. i think on issues of inequality and wall street, especially, the country has moved much farther left. >> has the country moved or the democratic party? >> i think the country has. >> i think the middle class -- >> actually, bill clinton -- >> actually, the country. >> really key into this message. >> but in fairness, bill clinton left office and said big government is over when he started his term. and it wasn't just democrats who grew government.
it was george w. bush who grew it, too. with education and health care and other parties and created tension and fissures within the republican party. i think to your point, it's a reaction to the moment we find ourselves in. i think it's sufficiently arrogant to say the reason i'm not winning is because poor people are not voting for me. we could unpack that and maybe find some other things he might be trying to say. the reality is, he's not winning enough votes period to be the nominee. that doesn't mean that his message is not an important one. it does not mean the positions that he's taking are not ones that should be taken seriously. but to make that comment is insulting in many ways to the democratic party, and insulting because it suggests that either poor people aren't listening and don't understand thing, or what i think it also could suggest is his message is not sufficiently motivational to people across the democratic party. he should be careful in saying those kinds of things. all kands should be careful in saying those kind of things. coming up, you would think
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a vote for cruz or trump, frankly, is a vote for hillary clinton. >> as we stand here today, there are two and only two candidates who have any plausible path whatsoever to winning the republican nomination. me and donald trump. >> look, i'm the only one who can defeat hillary clinton consistently in 15 national polls. >> kasich has no path to winning. he has no path to winning in cleveland. he will not be the nominee. >> i have been saying for a month that we were going to go to a convention. and the pundits were like, la-di-da. so what we need to do is get these critics to get them behind me so we can actually beat hillary clinton. >> we're saying republicans uniting behind our campaign, because if donald is the nominee, hillary wins and she wins by double digits. >> now, they're both mathically
eliminated. they should drop out. in all fairness, they shouldn't drop out. >> okay. welcome back to "morning joe". it goes on. it just goes on. it's monday, april 25th. with us, we have political writer for "the new york times," nicholas confessore. >> he's great. we love nick. >> good piece on hillary clinton and bernie sanders and the whole how to get those people -- >> former democratic congressman, harold ford jr. in washington. we have "the washington post's" eugene robinson. the president and ceo of the aspen institute, walter isaacson. political reporter for "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, robert costa. good to have you all on board. >> let's ask some big questions of these big guests that we have. important gues who breathe life into our show. our tired, tattered show. >> yes? >> walter isaacson, let's begin with you. >> we're all in washington, where are you? >> should be there.
>> the first hour, a lot of talk about bernie sanders, is he staying in the race too long? should he be able to be allowed to stay in the race, to change the democratic party to make it more in his imagine, or is he arrogant and should he drop out now? you've heard the debate, certainly over the last week or so, what do you think? >> and i've read nicholas's piece. look, this is what primaries are for. i remember my first primary i covered with barnacle, with ted kennedy and jimmy carter. ted kennedy went all the way to the convention even though he didn't have the delegates and helped change the platform if if he was running a party, i would get rid of those platforms. i don't think they do you any good. they just cause you problems with the person who lost the delegate battle. but it's interesting to have a true battle on substance. and you've got to remember that what they're doing, sanders and secretary clinton, is fighting over real issues. so i think it's a valid thing to keep going and keep doing. >> that's what i thought. >> yeah, i think so.
and on the republican side, bob costa, what's happening inside the trump campaign? you actually have paul manafort, who's come on -- >> to save the day. >> to save the day when it comes to delegates. they got wiped out again by ted cruz's people. no gains at all. and manafort seems to be running around, doing everything else, obviously, not pleasing his candidate. >> manafort continues to try to professionalize the operation in numerous states and looking ahead to the convention. but the problem for the trump campaign is that when it comes to delegate accumulation at the state conventions, there's still an organizational gap, and manafort and his associates, cory lewandowski and others are just trying to catch up to ted cruz. >> but isn't that why manafort got brought on? what we heard was -- and he's doing everything else because this. i thought manafort was -- he was brought on specifically to help with the delegates. >> he was. and it's been a challenge for the trump campaign to work
through some of these delegate slates, according to my sources within the campaign, they're still trying to fill these slate miss of the states and trying to get their own people. because it's not just about getting someone to run for delegates. you have to have people on the state convention floor who are activists, who know the state party, who know the state gop's rules committees. it's a complicated process. >> is the trump campaign in disarray right now because manafort's trying to do much more than he was originally brought on to do, or do you get the word that everything's going fine? >> i get the word that there are tensions. i wouldn't say disarray based on my reporting, but there is certainly a lewandowski camp and a manafort camp. at some levels, they're overlapping and working well together, but there's still some tension about this new group that's coming in and really taking control of the campaign. >> did you hear what i heard over the weekend, that trump was angered by manafort's performance at the rnc, the stories the that leaked out of the rnc?
>> i think when you talk to people close to trump, he wanted to see more delegates coming in. and he is frustrated behind the scenes. i hear he is voicing this at trump tower and elsewhere, that he wants to get more delegates. and when it comes to manafort, i've heard that trump wants too to do more media. he doesn't like being reined in by manafort and by others. but if he sweeps on tuesday, the thought in trump's circle is that things will be okay. >> we shall see. >> a major development overnight in the republican presidential contest. ted cruz and john kasich are teaming up against donald trump. the campaigns announced last night that they are dividing up the primary map to clear a math for each other in select states. so far, kasich is getting the oregon and new mexico primaries to himself, while cruz has next week's indiana primary. still no agreement on the last big prize, california. kasich is canceling scheduled events in indiana, and a pac supporting cruz tells nbc news that they are rethinking a $1.6
million ad buy attacking kasich. trump put out a statement that reads in part, "it is sad that two grown politicians have to collude against one person who has only been a politicianer ten months in order to try to stop that person from getting the republican nomination. collusion is often illegal in many other industries, and yet these two washington insiders had to revert to collusion in order to stay alive. they are mathematically dead and act only shows, as puppets of donors and special interests, how truly weak they and their campaigns are. >> hang on a second! >> no, we've got to look at the statement first. the statement's a work of hard. he got so much in there, did he not, nick? so much, nick. colluding, insiders. >> insiders, big donors. voting the agenda. it's pretty good. he really got all of his kind of greatest hits in one 500,000 --
>> politics for ten months. >> all of the facts he believes are relevant. >> a pretty effective statement. >> it is. >> here's trump speaking over the weekend, before the news of cruz and kasich colluding broke. >> i started off and we had all of these people. then one-by-one, i knock them out. knock them out. and believe me, i knocked them out. nobody else knocked them out. and these are all nice people. once i defeat them, i like every one of them. while i'm fighting them, i don't. like right now, i don't like lyin' ted cruz. but in about four or five weeks from now, i think he'll be one of my best friends. that's the way it works. there are a couple of people, i don't even want their endorsement, because it's so phoney. did you ever see with these politicians, they fight like hell for six months and they're saying horrible things, the worst things you can imagine, and then one of them loses, one of them wins. and the one that loses, i just want to congratulate my component on -- he is a
brilliant man, he will be a great governor or president or whatever. i'm not sure that you're ever going to see me there. i don't think i'm going to lose, but if i do, i don't think you'll ever see me again, folks. okay? i think i'll go to turnberry and play golf or something. it's a phoney business, this politics, it's a phony, phony business. >> walter isaacson, the man, say whatever you will about him, he is on message right now. the system is rigged and i'm not playing by their rules. >> it's a good message for this rule. everybody's against the phony politicians and the establishment. but a very complicated nomination battle. over the years, we've always tried to tweak things. should it be more primaries, more caucuses. go to a direct democracy, where whoever gets the most votes wins. go back to the days, the other way, of eisenhower having sort of the party loyalists choose him over robert taft in '52. so he's got to play by the rules that were written for this year. and that's where he's having trouble getting the delegates.
>> bob costa, do we kbpt trump insiders in trump's camp and also in cruz and kasich's camp, they're starting to believe it's more likely looking at these polls where he's even ahead in indiana that donald trump reaches the 1,237 he needs to get the nomination on the first ballot? >> there's a sense that trump is barreling towards that number. and that's why this deal is so significant, because cruz, according to many of his associates, needs to win indiana. and trying to get kasich out of that equation puts cruz at least on the map to try to come back in those polls. gene robinson, do you think this collusion actually could pay off? >> you know, i think it has paid off in the sense that it is dominating the news cycle right now. we're talking about it. >> but isn't that just giving dru donald trump more material? >> and we're not talking about the fact that these two guys are going to get creamed tomorrow and he's going to win five primaries and wipe them off the
map. they point to this shiny thing and say, everybody look at this. >> i don't think it's very attractive. >> in fact, they're going to have a bad week. they're going to have a bad week. >> so thank you for focusing us, away from the shiny object, mika. >> i'm not looking at the penny anymore. >> let's look at the poll. >> donald trump has a big lead going into tomorrow's contests in the northeast, in rhode island, the brown university poll gives trump a double-digit lead, 38% to john kasich's 25% with 14% for ted cruz. in pennsylvania, trump leads in the latest nbc "wall street journal"/marist poll 27% to 24%, for cruz and kasich, at 24%. trump is also ahead at the cbs/yougov. poll of pennsylvania by a similar margin. >> 49%, harold, obviously, his ceiling. >> but there are these unbound delegates. >> he's going to win tomorrow. and what i find interesting, most interesting, was that earlier in the day, both kasich and cruz were saying, they, themselves or their person or
trump was the only one who could win. and by night, the two decided to come together and presumably say one of them would be a better candidate than trump. two, i guess, the worry remains, if you're for trump, if you're a republican, if you're looking how to consolidate the party. how does the party come together? we focus on the sanders/clinton dissension here. these two guys, or at least three in one, or two, if you want to look at them as individuals, there seems to be a huge chasm between them. and listening to trump, i didn't quite understand what he was saying. he said he'll be best for cruz once he wins, but if he does not win, cruz should not expect him to be his friend. >> seems sort of like a one-way relationship. >> right. so if you're phony, you can't be phony one way. it's phony both ways. you can't accept his support and not say you're a phony in the process. so trying to reconcile the republican party is going to be very, very interesting here in the coming weeks. i think trump will get enough delegates and i'll be curious to
see what governor kasich and senator cruz do. >> but walter, you've been talking about the first race you did. you've been through a few of these, and i always love at this point in the process, when things are getting a little uglier. and everyone saying, the two sides will never come together. and then you get closer to the convention and people start thinking, they rationalize, do i really want hillary clinton to select three -- the next three supreme court choices? we already have one vacancy, scalia's vacancy. maybe if trump promises us, you know, trump's putting out his list of supreme court vacancies. and maybe if this, maybe if we get the right person there, and i know tom, he's working with trump. he's -- it always happens. they always seem to coalesce. i understand trump will challenge us more than most anybody else. but, whether you get it on the republican side or whether you get it on the democratic side with bernie and hillary, they
always come together at the end. >> the problem with knowing history is that sometimes it doesn't actually rhyme and things are sometimes different. i think trump is a fundamentally different case than someone we've seen in the past. this is not someone who's a lifelong republican. in fact, most of his views are more to the left or moderate or populist, whether it's anti-trade or the pro-abortion, he was before. so, i think this is a non-politician, and we're not going to quite see the same unity on the platform with everybody raising their hand as the maroballoons drop. >> all right. perhaps. i kind of think that ted cruz would be frighteningly bad for the republicans. >> the never-trump movement right now is four or five wealthy families, some political operatives, some people writing "the weekly standard," who i
really like, and a hashtag on twitter. and there's probably this argument it's less than it seems. you can see people there's polling of people who say, i will never vote for trump. i think if he's the nominee in the end, you'll see everybody come into line in a pretty quick fashion. >> bob costa, what do you -- >> do you think so? >> i think so so. >> i think there's a hope among the cruz and kasich supporters that there will be a second ballot and trump's best moment if he does not reach 1,237 will be that first ballot. and that's why the real fight, again, is at the state conventions, because if trump can't get to the number, there's a sense that this collusion between cruz and kasich could be a possibly unity ticket or the option of using the vice presidential slot to bring the never-trump forces together. these are all things that are under discussion at the rnc meetings last week and this weekend. >> and over the weekend, donald trump said he only cares about the first ballot. >> yeah. >> so eugene robinson, robert costa, thank you so much. walter, stay with us, if you can. and still ahead on "morning joe," the u.s. is about to send
more americans into syria. what the president officially announced this morning. plus, hillary clinton's hawkish tenure as secretary of state. we'll talk about the roots of her foreign policy perspective with "the new york times's" washington bureau chief. wish your skin could bounce back like it used to? neutrogena hydro boost water gel. with hyaluronic acid it plumps skin cells with intense hydration and locks it in. for supple, hydrated skin. hydro boost. from neutrogena
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donald trump actually says wages are too high in america. honestly, i don't know who he spends his time talking to, but i recommend he get out of one of those towers and actually go down and talk to some folks who are working as hard as they can! >> they actually said, they came out with a l poll recently, an election between crooked hillary and wonderful donald, it will be the biggest, most incredible
vote-getting election in the history of our country. >> and you know, trump keeps saying things like, you know, i didn't really mean it. it was all part of my reality tv show, running for president will be on your screen. well, you know what? if we buy that, shame on us. because he's already showed us what he believes and he's already said what he wants to do. and he wants to go after every one of the rights we have. loose cannons tend to misfire. and what we have with him is the loosest of all cannons. >> ivanka would say, be more presidential. and i started thinking -- i said, i can. you know, being presidential is easy. much easier than what i have to do. here i have to rant and rave, i have to keep you people going, otherwise you're going to fall asleep on me, right? if i was presidential, first of all, i would have a
teleprompter. you ever see crooked hillary clinton? she walks in, how she walks in. good afternoon, bridgeport. how are you? this is crooked hillary clinton. then people start yawning, leaving, the whole thing is a disaster. and she'll be a disastrous president. >> you say, one of the greatest comic stylings since charlie chaplin. >> that was a different version -- >> i really want -- >> -- there was another version this weekend that was really incredible. >> which one? >> a different stop in connecticut. he's like charlie chaplin, tim conway, the greats. >> all the greats rolled up in one political -- >> that was good, but there's a funnier one. >> i watched it, and i just thought, this is why people like him. >> because it's kind of true. >> we talked about yanking the
curtains down off of what's been a necessarily opaque process. he's doing it even on the pageantry of politics. and people like it. >> our last three presidents, what can you say about them? all three two-termers, they were fun to hang out with. donald trump, according to hillary clinton, why'd she go to his wedding? fun to hang out with. >> joining us now, nicole wallace. and in washington, "new york times" washington bureau chief, elisabeth bumiller, good to have you all onboard. >> a fun question for halperin, obama's fun to hang out with? >> oh, yeah, super fun. i mean, as president. i'm not saying i would hang out with him. but you know, go to monday night football and he can be fun. by the way, they're not saying boo, they're saying, boo miller. >> boohoo, miller. >> elisabeth, how you doing? >> i'm doing great, how are you guys? >> doing good. we've been talking about hillary clinton for some time and the suggestion by many bernie
sanders supporters and also by me sometimes that hillary's also closer to the neo con position than a lot of republicans, certainly, the last two republicans that are in the race right now. could you sort through her work as secretary of state and the positions that she's taken and explain what her world view is and how that may pertain to how democrats vote? >> sure. there's this great piece by mark lanler about hillary as a hawk. her world view is one of american exceptionalism, as mark talks about. which is that there is a role for the american military in certain areas, and there's a role for intervention. for example, in the debate over whether to send more troops to afghanistan in 2009, she sided with the defense secretary, bob gates. wanted to send 40,000 troops.
that was a high number, but she backed general stanley mcchrystal, a general at the time in afghanistan. the number ended up being 30,000, but she supported gates the whole way. she also was for a more muscular intervention in syria than the president wanted. she wanted a no-fly-zone or a partial no-fly zone. we know she was behind the intervention in libya. so she was very tough on china, as secretary of state quietly behind those doors. so she's quite -- as mark says, she may be the one true hawk in this race. compared to the republicans. >> and that's really been the hallmark of the clinton's foreign policy, bill clinton back in the 1990s, actually, fighting republicans when he wanted to send troops to bosnia in kosovo, of course, it had some troops sent other places as well. but this has been a hallmark of
the clinton's foreign policy for some time, has it not? >> it has. i think she -- the story talks in a very interesting way. i learned a lot from the story about how it goes back to her childhood, you know, she was a republican -- grew up in a republican household. her father had been a navy officer in the second world war, and there was this amazing story about how -- in 1975, she's about to marry bill clinton, she's a lawyer in arkansas, she goes into a marine recruiting office and asks to sign up. there's some debate about whether it was an army recruiting office. some people say she was just testing the waters. she was 27 years old. she had coke bottle glasses and the marine recruiter said, look, you're 27, you're a m whwoman, you're too old, but thanks very much. but the point is, she's had this lifelong interest in the military. and when she served in the senate in 2002, she went on the
armed services committee, rather than is traditional for a new york senator of the foreign relations committee. it was on the armed services committee that she really became friends with the general. she made a close alliance with david petraeus. you can say that was partly because she was very ambitious, and thinking about running for president, and as the first woman seriously to run for president, you would have to have good commander in chief credentials. >> there's that famous story about somebody going up and asking david petraeus while hillary clinton was in the senate, who knows the most about what's going on in iraq right now? who knows the most about what you do day-in, day-out. and he said, you mean other than hillary clinton, what senator? >> and in the article, you may be surprised about some of her reviews and exactly some calling her hawkish or how hawkish she could be. but do you think, harold, this turns off hillary clinton voters? because i don't think it does.
i don't think it surprises them or turns them off. >> so i think it relates to what we talked about in the last segment, domestic policy. remember, the peace dividend was important to the country. we were trying to figure out what the changing of our posture with the soviet union and russia, what that meant for the different investments in america. and then the world began to change more. and i think bill clinton reacted and responded. mrs. clinton, i served on a board with her at the pentagon along with newt gingrich and several others, a civilian board. a transformation board. i don't think there's any doubt that speaker beginning rich wgi recommended me and her for this board. she became not only the one we looked up to, as a sigt united states senator, she possessed a knowledge base greater than most civilians on the board. and you talk about trump and cruz, i think trump said he would make the sand glow, and mr. trump has been a proponent after brussels of torture being
reemployed. and he's so much so that you have military officials have had to come forward and say, look, we would not direct our agents to do that. so i think you have to put all of this in context. i read the piece and thought it was a well-written piece. but to call her a hawk has taken it out of context. >> she's a hawk and has always been a hawk. >> what a compliment. >> i think she looks at the facts and will react to the facts. she doesn't approach an issue and say, we have to attack. and i think it's fair to say that. >> and i know paul wolfowitz. >> was the fact is, nobody's suggesting she's paul wolfowitz, but in the obama administration, elisabeth, when she was secretary of state, it is hard to find a decision that was made, that was being debated by the president's cabinet, where she didn't come down on the most hawkish side. isn't it? >> i don't know if it was the most hawkish. she was to a little bit of the
right of obama. >> what would you call it then? >> well, i would call it a robust -- she was an interventionist. >> uh, wait a minute? >> we can call her a hawk. >> i think there's a little overlapping with her words. >> i think interventionist is a good word for it. hawk implies, as harold said, that she was willing to use force at any time. of course not. but she believed in strategic force. and as we talked about in syria, she's, she was ahead of obama on syria, as you've reported in the show all morning. he's sending 50 more special operators to syria. she was behind that some time ago. >> elizabeth? >> yes? >> you covered condoleezza rice and wrote a whole book about her. would you call condoleezza rice hawkish or an interventionalist? >> i would call her hawkish and an interventionalist. >> and i would call clinton hawkish and an interventionalist.
>> but she was certainly less interventionalist in the second term than the first. >> she is interventionalist and certainly within this administration, she's hawkish. you'll see a lot of leaders defect from the republican party to lick, >> because she's -- >> interventionist. she has relationships that no one running as a republican can match. >> general hayden said, other than kasich, you know, you have to consider hillary clinton. i mean, cruz doesn't get enough attention or scrutiny on his record on intel or national security, but he's not really trusted either. >> bob gates -- >> the fact that the history with the clintons goes back, and the rub, and it's one of the great ironies. you're going to have a democratic nominee that is more hawkish or intentionalist, however you want to to describe it, than either the two republicans who are going to win the nomination, and one who has better relations with wall
street than either the two republicans. and this strain between republicans, non-neocon republicans and the clintons goes back a very long way. there was that famous inter-cabinet fight between colin powell and madeleine albright, where madeleine albright kept wanting to send troops in, because she was a clinton interventionist, i would suggest, a clinton hawk. and always wanted to send troops in. and at one point, when colin powell kept saying, no, restraint. no, restraint. no, we don't want to go there. she yelled, you know, well, what's the use of having all of these soldiers if you can't ever use them. and colin powell almost had a hemorrhage right there. the clintons have had a long history of this. i'm not knocking them. i'm just saying, we're going to have -- >> you're saying, it is what it is what it is. >> i think she's one that's willing. she doesn't take force off the table. which is a positive thing. there is a time in american
politics when that was applauded by republicans. and frankly, your father, the brzezinski award, the inaugural award went to bob gates, who many people thought was more hawkish than not. he believes that america should be involved around the globe. i would add a third word. you've used intervention, you've used hawkish, i would use involved and engaged and i believe that mrs. clinton believes america has to engage would speak to mark's point about havings a presence around the globe, which is what i believe your father was saying -- >> they called him hawkish. >> -- he resisted filling the vacuums that have existed all over the world, because he thinks their quagmires waiting to happen and the american public isn't interested in fighting every war around the world. >> and hillary clinton, and elisabeth, is it not safe to say that hillary clinton presidency will have a foreign policy far different than a barack obama presidency? >> i don't know if it's far
different. it obviously depends on what happens. i think she would be more willing to commit force in certain areas. and by the way, just to add, she was opposed to the iraq surge in 2006 and 2007. >> it's true. >> it's not totally consistent. >> that was to atone for her vote. >> that has been very interesting. elisabeth bumiller, thank you very much. >> i could be wrong, but it's going to be radically different. hillary clinton does not believe in leading from behind. hillary clinton does not believe that you sit back and let the events of the world shape the country. hillary clinton does not believe in the type of foreign policy, the don't-do-stupid-stuff foreign policy of barack obama. >> and she doesn't believe nothing is better than something. >> but she will do a better job than he has done in building coalitions. >> can i answer that question, not voting for hillary clinton. yes, yes, and yes. hillary clinton will build better coalitions on the hill and build better coalitions the
first week around the world than barack obama. the man, say what you will about him, he doesn't like people. he doesn't like dealing with congress. >> i was asking rhetorically. >> doesn't like dealing with foreign leaders. we heard that in 2009. >> year one. >> 2009, foreign leaders and diplomats were coming up saying, what's with your president? he comes to our country, he gives a speech, he leaves. hillary clinton completely opposite of that. >> we'll be right back. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪
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watch on demand, and download your dvr shows anywhere. i just want to follow up, though. condi, though -- no, i just -- so condi's a hawk, but hillary's an interventionalist. it was condi that was fighting cheney. >> every day. lelizabeth wrote a very smart book about condi ryice. i'm confused as to how condi could be a hawk and hillary is not in the obama -- it doesn't make any sense. >> no. still ahead, pennsylvania is a possible game changer for the gop delegate count, but even if donald trump wins big, could he lose most of the state's delegates? yes, he could, if the system is a scam. >> oh, boy. >> it's rigged and deserves being destroyed and torn down,
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united states postal service priority: you all right, joining us now -- >> protect us. >> correspondent and so-called delegate hunter -- >> look at him. >> she has a shacket on. >> it's is a shirt jacket. >> a shacket. >> and jacob is just all -- it's very nice, but just all a little too thought out. >> mika -- >> a shacket. >> i don't do gel. >> do you want to talk about delegates? >> uh-huh. >> so unbound delegates, you said, it's rigged. >> he's so good! >> so rigged. at least that's what donald trump says. and he's nervous about pennsylvania. 54 unbound delegates. he could be really -- >> is he nervous or just laying the foundation for any outcome. >> i don't think he's nervous. >> now they're trying hard to get those 54 unbound delegates.
i met some of them. coincidentally, i have a piece of tape about that. >> no way! >> were you wearing a shacket? >> who are you voting for? >> i'm hoping to vote for trump. i'm waiting to see what the constituents do. >> i'm self-funded just like donald trump. >> how much has your campaign cost? >> 34,000 bucks. >> you're paying $30,000 out of pocket to run for an unbound delegate spot. >> are you pledged to ted cruz? vote for him no matter what happens? >> that's correct. >> even if your constituents vote the other way? >> that's correct. i've been public about it. so anyone that wants to support cruz can vote for me. >> is it going to say who you support on the ballot. >> no, it doesn't say that. >> have you ever thought about you might be one of the ones to stop trump, if he's just short of 1,237. >> i've thought about that. >> you're kind of like one of the most important people in american politics that nobody
knows about. >> a celebrity for ten minutes. >> in my opinion, this is a really stupid process? >> you believe it. $30,000 to run for an unbound delegate position. >> so i can go vote for a candidate and then somebody decides they want to run as a delegate and they could vote for pat paulson. >> whoever they want to. >> it's outrageous. >> also with us, jeffrey cowen. he's the author of "let the people rule" jacob's very excited, his book will be signed by the author himself >> i have presents for you and all of your viewers, which are buttons. this is an actual button. a copy of the actual button from 1912 when theodore roosevelt, for the first time in history, created presidential primaries. we didn't have primary at all -- this is the first time. when he challenged william
howard taft, he wants to run for president again. finds that the party leaders are not for him. so his only way of doing it is to create presidential primaries. he wins 70% of delegates and still doesn't get the nomination. so a lot of this story is a little bit like what we're doing today. >> he won 70% of the delegates in the voting booth and -- >> that shut him out. it wasn't praimss and still decided they didn't want to -- >> and one thing's fascinating, one reason they didn't name him, the party leaders, even though they knew roosevelt would probably win and taft wouldn't, they wanted to keep control of the party. >> yeah. >> sounds like trump -- a lot of people would rather lose with trump than win with him. >> or lose without him. whichever way. >> so, how much did it grow, after '12, '16? >> it stayed pretty much the same until 1968. and you may recall, and many of your viewers will, in 1968,
hubert humphrey, after a bitter primary campaign about the war, with robert kennedy and eugene mccarthy, when he basically won all the primaries, hubert humphrey hadn't won a single primary, got the nomination. and there was a revolution at the democratic convention in 1968, which changed the rules and now every state has to -- >> walter, how much has changed since 1968? i mean, it's unbelievable. humphrey doesn't win a primary. >> because it reminds you, too, that teddy roosevelt finally bolted and did a bull moose party, which is something you can't do that well these days. it is very hard to run as an independent and get on the ballots. but never sense a teddy roosevelt election that jeff wrote about, have we had such a ripeness, a readiness for some major realignment in the parties. >> yeah. so roosevelt, afterwards, obviously, the party leaders didn't want him, got rid of him,
and he ran. >> and starts his own third party. the so-called bull moose party. part of the scandal of the story is when he starts his own party, he decides in the deep south, there can't be any african-americans. which is a shocking part of the story, too. but he wins more votes than taft, but still, of course welcome woodrow wilson gets elected. >> jeffrey cowen, thank you so much. shacket man. >> i'll hook you up with one. >> a shacket? >> yeah. >> it's actually too shirts. >> it's just two shirts. it's really just two shirts. >> really? >> they both seem to be starched. >> oh, i don't starch. >> have you starched -- >> every time i come on, we talk about laundry. >> there's just a little -- >> it's three hours. >> kill some time here, i guess. >> walter, thank you so much! >> he doesn't have his applolonia gloves. >> freaky. >> this is really good, you have jacob on doing the delegates, this is a thing to be looking at.
>> thanks, walter. >> and his pieces have been great. >> thank you. >> jacob, we appreciate what you do. back at you. >> this morning, president obama announced plans to send 250 additional military personnel to syria to, quote, keep up the momentum on isis. patrick murphy is with us, next. you know when i first started out, it was all pencil and paper. the surface pro is very intuitive. i can draw lightly, just like i would with a real pencil. i've been a forensic artist for over 30 years. i do the composite sketches which are the bad guy sketches. you need good resolution, powerful processor because the computer has to start thinking as fast as my brain does. i do this because i want my artwork to help people. real is touching a ray. amazing is moving like one. real is making new friends. amazing is getting this close.
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slammed into the ground. it happened not just once, not twice, but three times. much to the amusement of the army spotters who caught it all on video that has now gone viral. >> that's was nbc's jim miklaszewski reporting on what's you might call a bit of a mishap during an airborne exercise in germany. >> by the way, mik -- >> no, i don't want to talk about it. does it upset you? >> yes. >> mik will be leaving msnbc at the end of the year. there's no nbc news washington without mik. >> you have to stay. >> i agree. >> three against one. >> i don't accept it. he has to change his mind. joining us now, acting secretary of the united states army -- >> mr. secretary. >> patrick. he's a comeback veteran and member of congress, now secretary of the army. let's talk about the 250 troops
heading into syria. what are your thoughts? >> my thoughts, it's a great thing. we have to take the fight to isis in syria and iraq. we've killed over 10,000 of their fighters but we need to do a lot more. we can't rest until we take the heart out of raqqah. >> what will 250 additional fighters do? >> it's going to empower the syrians and iraqis to step up and root out isis, which is, you know, as you know, they are kidnapping 14, 15, 16-year-old girls, give them birth control pills and pass them around like candy. >> do the russians make our job there harder or easier? >> both. >> how? >> one, they have hit some of -- what we would like to consider targets in the area but also some of the moderates there. >> a lot of the moderates. >> it's not an easy solution.
it's not very black and white. but the reality is that we just can't -- i think the lesson learned, when we walk away, bad things happen. and bad things happen and americans were killed. >> we walked away by drawing a red lynn -- >> when we walked away from iraq? >> it's not about american solution. and that's why we're being much more thoughtful as we go in to build this partner capability, to build the iraqi forces and syrian forces to go after the extremists in that area. >> i'm wondering about the new move to open up the other branches -- the combat branches to women. is this going to be a huge watershed or is the practical effect going to be smaller than some imagine it will be? >> i have only been acting secretary of the army for three months but let me tell you, this has been an historic year. we've had over 200,000 women serve in iraq and afghanistan in
the last 15 years. they've already been serving in combat. in fact, 139 of them were kills in action. those 200,000 women, what they've paved the way two, we've had three women graduate ranger school. we have graduateds from west point and rotc that are going into infantry and armor branches. daughters like my daughter who is 9 years old in bucks county, pennsylvania, she'll go maybe to west point and say there was an armored tanker or infantry -- that's what this will do. it's an exciting time. we need more women and men to join. only 1 in 4 americans qualify to come into our military because you have to be physically fit, mentally strong and have character. >> there's been a lot of discussion about nato. the president talking about some countries being free riders. donald trump saying it was obsole
obsolete. >> some of our nato countries, even now against isis, countries like great britain have been such a strong ally. poland. there are other ones, though, that have turned our attention away from the military spending, doing what's necessary in my opinion, but they've also stepped up, countries like germany who stepped up with the refugee crisis within syria. there's a proactive way to go about this and reactive way. the reactive way is with the syrian refugees. we have all countries see what russia is doing, invading other countries and know to step up or we'll hang separately. >> secretary patrick murphy, thank you. >> go to the pentagon. visitior army. >> we love going to the pentagon when mik is there. ted cruz and john kasich decide to team up on donald trump. but is it too late and playing into donald trump's brand? the answer, yes.
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jonathan capehart. >> how was everybody's weekend? was it okay? anybody do anything like big this weekend? i'll tell you, i was sitting home, you know, in my t-shirt reading twitter. i felt like a total loser. i think everybody went to see bruce springsteen play like his tribute to prince. >> apparently that was so cool. >> i was eating corn chips. >> it's on youtube. you can just watch it there. >> everybody was there. bruce ain brooklyn. that's big. what about you, nick? >> i watched part of the "game of thrones" premiere until i had to stop and choose between that's and the walking dead. >> that's a horrible choice. >> you millennials -- it's unbelievable. meryl streep had her choices in sophie's choice.
and now -- >> and nick has his. >> six and one and half dozen or the other. >> sophie had nothing on you. >> okay. we have major developments in politics over the weekend. no, nobody gets stabbed. that's you, joe, bringing things to the table that make no sense to anybody. >> it makes no sense if you aren't under 30 years old. >> i mourned prince. >> incredibly talented. >> wrote the soundtrack to my life. bless his soul. >> all right. so big developments in politics over the weekend. ted cruz and john kasich are teaming up against donald trump. the campaigns announced they are dividing up the primary map to clear a path for each other in select states. so far kasich is getting to oregon and new mexico primaries to himself while cruz has next week's indiana primary. still no agreement on the last big prize, california, where --
>> so, mark, this deal, it's a little late, routight? it's like you're sitting in purgatory and say if i get the chance, i'm going to church more often. it's too late, right? >> it's not mathematically too late but the headline there call this a shock deal. others have called it a deal of desperation. if trump wins indiana or wins it big, it's over. and it's been true for a while. this is really about indiana. one step at a time. having made the deal if cruz can't beat trump in indiana, it's over bar something huge -- >> trump was winning by 30, 40 points in new york and sweeping. kept saying forget about that, indiana. indiana will be his waterloo. trump is up in indiana. >> with kasich out, there's a chance cruz could beat him
there. it's about stopping him in indiana because the symbolism of stopping him in indiana and the math of stopping him in indiana is vital. >> but the assumption means that's people who are supporting kasich or cruz dislike trump so much that they'll jump to the other guy to stop trump which i just think is a lot of ifs and a assum assumpti assumptions. >> they're so different. >> they are very different candidates. >> it's less about voters and the outside groups. an outside group in indiana running pro-cruz, anti-kasich ads. they need every dollar spent against trump. >> a vote for john kasich, ain't no way in hell i'm going to vote for ted cruz and vice versa. and vice versa. >> it costs ted cruz not much to cede oregon to john kasich.
the direction of what the map already is. >> what do they do when they get to the convention if all this works? do they run together? >> there will now be a week of negative ads against donald trump. >> donald trump has a big lead going into tomorrow's contest in the northeast. >> massive. >> in rhode island the brown university poll gives trump a double-digit lead, 38% to kasich's 25% and 14% for ted cruz. in pennsylvania, trump leads. 45% to 27%. for cruz, and then kasich at 24%. trump is ahead in the cbs news/yougov poll. >> it's an unfair thing. i'm way up in pennsylvania, but in pennsylvania you get 17
delegates and the rest you have to negotiate for. what is going on? >> come on, what he just said there is what's going on? i win pennsylvania by 25 points and then you want me to negotiate? no, i'm negotiating directly with the voters. >> this fits in with his brand. >> it's time for people in my party and what the democrats do with superdelegates is a total scam and insider game to say enough is enough. you don't negotiate with party insiders. people go to the polls. they vote. they exercise their democratic right, and then we decide who wins based on the voting. >> it sounds nice. >> it sounds like america. >> on the other hand -- >> you said it sounds nice. i say it sounds like america. >> i was going to say, state
after state and acted surprised. i can't believe these are the rules. >> he's doing that's along with the people. not everybody studies this like a nerd. but my point is that people are surprised that their vote doesn't count. >> it's a ridiculous system. >> thank you. >> the act is a little much. >> no, it's not. >> you have a utopian vision that's parties should be able to pick the -- >> no, voters have that utopian vision. >> i'm telling you, if anybody out there in the republican establishment think that they gain any points by mocking trump for believing that if he wins a state by 20, 25 points he should win the delegates and not have to go negotiate, i'd be raising holy hell. i would be raising hell every day. i've been saying this is a good act on his part. if i won a state by 25 points and they tried to take it away from me, that's what i would be
talking about. i'd burn their place to the ground politically. i would go back and say i'm going to come back and i'm going to win the nomination. i'm going to circle back around. if i don't get all of these delegates that's i deserve proportionately and i'll work the next four years to destroy your political career. that's is so unfair. and the superdelegates, it's the same thing on the democratic side. it is a scam. it's a total scam. >> thank you. >> bernie sanders not doing well right now. bernie sanders was screwed by the establishment from the very beginning. they screwed him in iowa. they screwed him with superdelegates from the get-go. i'm telling you, these parties are going to turn into country clubs pretty soon if they don't clean this mess up. >> there are some states where trump has gotten more delegates than than so he's benefitted
from the system too. today kasich and cruz will have to comment themselves on this deal, and it's going to be very hard. >> that's auk ward. >> they hate each other. >> about how they are teaming up to stop trump and trump will be talking about a rigged system. >> again, again, again, they'll end up getting ted cruz. if they somehow wangle that for themselves, that's will be the worst thing ever for them. tell me about a senator in new hampshire or smothers state that wants ted cruz to come campaign for him or her? >> they don't. trump is still going to get his 1237. >> i don't care if he does or doesn't. >> i am more convinced today he could get above 1237 heading into the convention. the comparison between sanders -- i don't think sanders is mistreated. >> y he was.
he's been screwed from the beginning with the debates, with iowa. it's an -- debbie wasserman schilts is not in the tank. she built the tank. >> trump knew going in these rules. however, it does seem weird you can win a state as big as he's won and not auk wawalk away and convince people -- democrats don't have a system quite like that side. in that regard there's not a fair parallel. but i think trump gets there. >> you have something else. >> superdelegates. like i've said before, if republicans had a scam system like democrats with the superdelegates, jeb bush would still be in the race because he would have gotten 500 delegates, he could have lost the first five primaries and found his groove. >> the superdelegates went against the candidate at the
actual pledged delegate lead. and sanders as well has also won in a lot of states or has gotten more delegates than is owed to him in a lot of states. he's benefited from the caucus system. >> the impact of having those superdelegates every night. every night -- from the beginning with iowa. and because of the proportional nature of this, yes, bernie sanders won this state by 87 percentage points but with the superdelegates and the fact he'll only get one more delegate than hillary clinton. we were saying there was no way he was going to catch up with her when we were 10% into this game. it's so rigged on the democratic side. >> it creates an overhang. >> it does. >> but if he won states, then superdelegates would shift. >> eugene robinson? >> it would be -- your point would be, i think, more valid if bernie were not behind in regular delegates.
he's getting beat in pledge delegates, and so when he overtakes hillary clinton in pledge delegates, then, yes, he has an argument to the superdelegates. and what happens is the superdelegates do listen. now i don't like the system. i think the system is wrong. i don't think there will be superdelegates. what we saw in 2008 is the superdell gegate superdelegates, people switch from clinton to obama, they jump ship. i'm convinced that's what they would do again. there's no reason to now because their candidate is winning in pledge delegates. >> for any race it creates an air of inevitability. let's say jeb bush loses in a few constitutes and is still 500 delegates up. because when you add the
superdelegates. jeb would still be getting money. his people would say just hang in there. it creates a dynamic that always favors, and it was meant to, the party establishment. >> right, but as gene said, if senator sanders were winning in pledge delegates, the superdelegates would listen. and also, let's keep in mind that the problem that bernie sanders has is not that superdelegates are all with hillary clinton. it's that he went through southeastern states where the bedrock of the democratic party of african-americans who did not go for him. so it powered secretary clinton to huge victories that allowed her to rack up pledge delegates. the fact he doesn't have the lead in pledge delegates is the problem. >> all right. as we pull out of the weeds here. ted cruz continued to clean up in delegate contests this
weekend. >> good thing paul manafort came on. no, seriously. this guy is a fixer. he's an insider, man. >> he's claiming to fix the wrong thing, in my opinion. i don't know what's going on, but my gut is that he's actually going for the -- >> he's actually very good. if you look at paul manafort, he came in to do the delegates and decided he'd do everything else and take over the campaign. >> you aren't supposed to be talking about him. you're supposed to be talking about the candidate. >> the rnc is going, i know you think donald trump is like what you see on tv, but -- i'm telling you, he does what every washington consultant does. pets, condescendingly pats the candidate on the head and says, listen, now that i'm in charge here, don't worry. everything is -- i've heard this a million times. consultants come in and he leaks the story. it gets out there that he's the savior.
he leaks the rnc meeting and so while he's doing all of this -- it's what they all do. every washington consultant, it's in their dna. i'm going to go in. i'm going to fight an internal war and take over. >> they may be good at what they do but their ego cannot help themselves and they must let the world know. >> he's talking to reporters, leaking stuff. and the one thing he's supposes to, do mark halperin, he doesn't do. he failed miserably this weekend. >> his campaign installed supporters through local election events in maine, south carolina and utah. hang on, halperin. this raises some new questions about the man brought on to specifically help with these delegate battles. that's his job, right? >> he's good at it. he's good at it. >> paul manafort who downplayed this development. >> nothing to see her. >> the only vote that matters is
the vote that's cast when the roll call is call. on saturday, ted cruz won zero. not 36. zero delegates. what was done on saturday was simply confurming the results of primaries. most of the conventions yesterday were set in stages a month or two ago. and before, frankly, i was involved. >> he got absolutely pounded. absolutely pounded. what's he supposed to do? mark halperin, you going to spin for the establishment? >> for the insurgents in the trump campaign. >> no, he's come from washington to clean trump up and he's leaking that he's the grown-up and that trump has been a clown and that he's going to make trump a grown-up. >> on the delegate issue, what he just said is true. it's too late for him to fix some of the things that have already happened and set in motion in terms of the delegate process in some of these states. if trump gets to 1400 delegates,
which he and the campaign are telling people, none of this will matter. what matters is changing trump's image in order to become a strong general election candidate. what he said to the rnc, i don't think trump disagrees with. >> trump does disagree with it. >> he mocked it publicly but they have a good cop/bad cop routine going. still ahead -- big crowds didn't translate to a win in new york but that hasn't stopped bernie sanders from turning out thousands more this weekend. the senator from vermont isn't taking his foot off the gas. plus, inside congress' money machine. we'll talk to one congressman who has had enough of it and is banning members from making direct fund-raising appeals. first, bill karins with a check of the forecast. >> this is our peak tornado season. it looks like tuesday is our big day and possibly friday. let me take you through the math. first off, the worst weather
this morning, northern minnesota, north dakota. later today some severe weather headed to chicago. yesterday those severe storms were in areas of kansas. little minor outbreak. a couple of reported tornadoes. some large hail that came down. golf ball size, pea size. a little damage done but nothing horrible. so today's threat, milwaukee, chicago, peoria, springfield, late afternoon storms, gusty winds, large hail. then we get into tuesday. this is more of our classic outbreak signatures. this area in orange and red is a moderate risk. enhanced risk and yellow is a slight risk. this is almost all of tornado alley up i-35. the area of greatest concern for strong tornadoes and maybe long track tornadoes, the ones on the ground for miles. those tend to be the most deadly. from hastings, nebraska, across 80, southwards crossing
interstate sfaent to interstate. it should be late afternoon. we should have good visibility. these are the areas the helicopter pilots fly in. if we have them we'll hopefully see them and give people heads-up time. 4:00 p.m. is about the time we track those. and then a damaging wind threat. that's tomorrow. we'll talk more about that as the event approaches. first today, beautiful day on the east coast. enjoy some more beautiful weather in washington, d.c. more "morning joe" when we come back. there are two billion people who don't have access to basic banking,
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clinton could be better than another republican? >> it's possible. it's possible. >> you couldn't see yourself supporting hillary clinton, could you? >> well, her -- we would have to believe her actions would be quite different than her rhetoric. let me put it that way. before we'd support some of the republican candidates, we'd have to believe their actions would be different. >> that's quite remarkable. it really is. and it's honest. and he's saying what i've heard a lot of republicans say, mark, which is a lot of republican fund-raisers quietly tell me, voting for hillary. >> have no choice. >> keep the house and senate in republican hands and support hillary. there's an article about a lot of business people say hillary clinton may be their safest choice for the centrist policies they are looking for.
whoever the republican nominee is must change that. and to build support not just from ceos but small business people around the country. if the republican party is not seen as the party better for business, they cannot win. >> we've heard and have been saying it on the air now for months and months and months that's we have people, mainly small business people coming up to us and whispering, i'm going to vote for trump. that's something you never hear from the big money people. >> i do not hear a vote for cruz. >> all the people that contribute to the republican party and have been driving it for years. almost to, and i would say a man that i've spoken with say i'm voting for hillary. first time i've ever voted for a democrat. i think that will probably change but right now, that's what a lot of them are saying. >> charles koch is not going to vote for or give money to hillary clinton. everybody is overreading that interview. he's saying if she actually is lying to everybody this whole time about her beliefs then
maybe if, in fact, she had difference beliefs under that, he'd vote for her. >> what he's saying if it's between hillary clinton and donald trump, he's not going to vote for donald trump. he might not vote for hillary clinton -- >> and ted cruz is not super popular in their donor world that they have. but their activists and grassroots groups do like ted cruz. a difficult position. >> maybe charles would write in somebody. or vote for -- probably would vote for -- >> barry goldwater. >> vote for whoever is on the libertarian line. i don't see him voting for trump or clinton. >> clinton took to twitter saying she was not interested in endorsements from people who deny climate science and try to make it harder for people to vote. so she doesn't want the koch vote. >> she certainly takes an awful lot of money from people who drill oil and make a lot of
money doing these same exact thing that the koch brothers do. so that's very interesting. >> is that fair? >> also the kochs are not deeply involved in groups or give money to groups that fight voting rights. it's not really one of their causes. in fact, they've been at pains to say that's not us. it's not our cause. it's interesting one for her to pick. coming up -- british invasion. we'll talk to the man who remade the united kingdom's conservatives. is what he did for them what the republican party needs to do for themselves this year? plus, much more of the news the cruz and kasich campaigns are teaming up to stop trump. that's straight ahead on "morning joe."
let's bring in casey hunt. your reporting on the cruz and kasich campaigns teaming up to attempt to stop donald trump, and you said last night, quote, this is a huge deal. explain. >> it is a huge deal, right? these two camps, both the candidates themselves and all the people that work for them were openly feuding in the hallways at the rnc meeting. both hitting back and forth insisting the other one should get out. throwing accusations both way. the trump team went down there and convinced a lot of people that donald trump is likely to get this nomination locked up before cleveland. and it became very clear that the thing that was standing in the way of a donald trump nomination was the fact these two candidates, you know, could potentially get together. that was the only way that was left to them. now this, of course, ted cruz's people think john kasich is a
liberal and that should tell you about the lengths they're suddenly willing to go to make sure this happens. it's potentially too little, too late. they were trying to get something like this to happen for quite a while. and we're at the point now, you know, where donald trump is -- he's got an argument, right? that they are suddenly trying to take away what these voters are telling the republican party they want to do. i think you'll see that start to play out over the course of the coming days. i think the question is whether or not kasich can step up and actually pull this off. whether cruz can win in indiana. is it too late there? don't forget early voting. kasich's name has been on that ballot for several weeks. >> kasie hunt, thank you. >> donald trump boils it down to one word, collusion, and says it several times. does that work? >> i think his whole message, and he's right is that huge fraction of the party elite
hates hum and wahate s him and wants him to lose. it's like in military wheonopoly collude. >> i flip the board when i'm losing. so trump puts out this statement. again, he is just dead on message since the system is rigged. and the system is rigged was a great two-week run. and by the way, we trademarked that because we did it on the monday. but collusion? that's a great word. like this is what the republican party has been doing all along, playing into his hands. this matchup on a sunday night gives them an entire week to talk about. >> just when he was losing steam he got supercharged by his rivals. two things have to happen now for this to be worth it. one is the money that wants to stop trump needs to come in powerfully. they need millions of dollars of
tv ads in the next week. kasich said early voting has started. and his name is on the ballot. ted cruz has to have a message. ted cruz has to tell the voters in indiana -- >> what is ted cruz's message? >> donald trump say liberal. >> guess what happened? guess who came up with the word collusion and all of this that fits perfectly with the donald trump brand. donald trump. >> i agree. i think trump goes into indiana with a two-barrel message. one is they are colluding. the other is, i can fix the economy. cruz needs a message. >> his message was i'm the outsider. i'm the outsider. he's not anymore. he is the party establishment. they are all lined up -- >> which is like the establishment should be so proud of. >> that ted cruz is now the best hope of the establishment? when did that happen? >> still ahead, dialing for dollars -- >> -- the republican establishment, that's devastating to its core message.
>> and graduate feat for donald brand. it's like the mitt romney speech. i could have saved him a lot of time out there in salt lake making that big speech. >> and it helped donald as well. >> like we said. that morning before the speech, this is going to help donald. this is going to do nothing except make you look kind of weak. >> trump got creamed in utah. >> oh, okay. >> he did. >> there you go. that's what it was about then. i'm sure that's exactly why they did that. you think it is? >> one of the reasons. >> i agree with mark. it helped the anti-trump forces. >> in utah. >> in general, i think it was the starting point for rallying all these disparate people together who oppose trump. >> okay. >> did they just admit it's like three people and a chihuahua -- >> those people were all fighting each other. they all came together.
>> if cruz beats trump in utah, this is a different race. dialling for dollars. it's a huge part of a congressman's job. one representative is trying to put an end to it. we'll bring in florida's congressman dafvid jolley who seems will be to give up his seat over this fight. >> you're making the electability argument in 1964. a pennsylvania governor made the same argument against barry goldwater. he said i'm more electable and the delegates didn't listen. why are they going to listen now? >> because goldwater got smoked. we lost everything.
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designing a world where people come first. steve, you're going to tell us what's wrong with politics in the united states. >> how long have i got? >> we have a three-hour show, but why don't you give us your view. >> how do we put people first in the u.s.? >> it relates very much to the anger and passion and energy you're seeing this election. the problem is four years down the road, whoever wins, nothing much will have changed but none of the candidates are looking at the fundamental issue. the systems and structures we've used to run the modern world have become too big and bureaucratic. >> too frustrating. >> it's the scale of it. the way we try and solve poverty or run schools or even the way corporations work. they're not just about governments. the way they treat their workers and customers. the way we raise children and the food we eat. >> how do we strip it down to size? >> this starts with literally that. breaking things up and
distributing power so that it's closer to the people who really care about things. in the case of businesses, for example, not just about breaking up the banks. it's about breaking up the telecom companies, the giant food businesses and agriculture companies. the health insurance companies. they all need to be broken up. also in government it's about saying the debates over education, common core this and whoever, are just completely irrelevant. when you look at the way kids are being educated today, it's totally out of date. we have this factory system. >> before we move into education let's go back to breaking up corporations, stripping them down to size. how disruptive of that is of the economy? and how do you do it? >> it's certainly disruptive of the economic elites just as any kind of attack on the way things are run today can be annoying and disruptive to the people in charge. what it really means is you have more opportunity for new companies, for innovation, for
start-ups, for those trying to challenge the powerful interest to actually create more jobs and design now products that are better and more closely related to the way we want to live today. >> we can fig aure out when the banks started to fail. when did this happen in corporations and government? when did this era of consolidation really start -- >> in more human in the book, i tell the story of how this has happened and how the world has become so bureaucratized. it goes back many decades to the second world war where you saw the rise of the giant corporation and the management of these techniques to run things according to the central plan. that's been going on for decades. it's not a recent thing. >> crowd pack is the crowd sourcing for campaigns that you found in small donors find candidates. what insights did you find from
that approach to politics that's fueled the book "more human." >> the first chapter is about politics. the power has gone from the individual and actually ended up with these power brokers who have all the control over what matters. that's what you're seeing in the campaign that people have had enough of. and that explains, i think, the sanders phenomenon and trump as well. none of them are really talking about the fundamental reform that will actually do anything about it. what i've tried to do with crowd pack, my start-up is do it through the marketplace by creating a platform for political engagement. you can find a candidate they want to support, give them money. you can run for office yourself without relying on the big machines. politics is just one chapter in the book. i go through every issue and say
what do we need to do to deal with this dehumanized world we're living in. >> your chapter on food is something that everybody should read because it's to your point but also makes you really realize what's available to you out there and the opportunity to do something better that people really want. the new book is "more human" designing a world where people come first. steve hilton, thank you very much. it could take $100 million for someone to win the florida senate seat up this year. but if it does, one man running for the seat says count me out. congressman david jolley is next with his attempt to keep members of congress from becoming telemarketers. we'll explain. n vests... or not in vests. this is my retirement. retiring retired tires. and i never get tired of it. are you entirely prepared to retire?
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about a dozen tiny offices equipped with a phone and computer line a corridor. this is where members of congress sit behind closed doors and plow through lists of donors. dialing for dollars. outside in the main hallway is a big board where the amount each member has raised for the party is posted for all to see and compare. >> it is a cult-like boiler room on capitol hill where sitting members of congress, frankly, i believe are compromising the dignity of the office they hold by sitting in these sweat shop phone booths calling people asking for money. their only goal is to get $500 or $1,000 or $2,000 out of the person on the other end of the line. it's shameful. it's beneath the dignity of the
office that our voters and communities entrust us to serve. >> that was republican congressman david jolly last night on "60 minutes" pushing back against the current system that requires them to use large portions of their time to call people for money. he's also a candidate for florida senate seat. good to have you on board. >> great to be with you. >> how can they do it without money? >> that's a good question. we all know the amount of money in politics. we all have different ideas, different solutions. this is about the amount of time it takes to raise it. let's pull the curtain back and realize you have members of congress spending 20 to 30 hours a week -- >> is that's what you elected them for? >> you are paying them $174,000 a year and they are shirking, shaking down the american people for money instead of doing their job. >> it's depressing. >> it is. >> what's the solution then? >> i introduced the stop act. i've wrestled with conservative
solutions to campaign finance. this is more a congressional reform. in 30 states, judges who are on the ballot are prohibited from directly solicitting money. our state legislators are prohibited from directly soliciting money. i introduced the stop act. it's four pages. i joke every member can read it before they vote on it. it prohibits the direct selection of a campaign contribution. challengers are left out of this bill. >> how do you raise money? >> so your campaign would still exist. you'd still have a fund-raiser, campaign manager. they could still operate the campaign committee but the member would put down the phone and get back to work. >> you just can't ask for money yourself. >> if your issue is border security, national security, tax reform, you are frustrated because nothing is getting done, right? that's because you have a congress that's not even doing their job.
>> that's going to be a race to get the best fund-raiser. >> so campaign finance is a supply and demand problem. this is the demand side. the supply side is the money. >> sure. >> there are proposals out there in congress right now for various kinds of small donor matching, public subsidies, taxpayer subsidies, mostly from democrats. what's your opinion of those things to take off some of the pressure to raise the money in the first place? >> so i would be happy as a republican to join a coalition to address campaign finance reform. how do we protect the constitutional right of any one to participate? what i want to do is the british model. take political ads off of television using the fcc regulation. how about that one? but this -- that will take years to get to a bipartisan campaign finance reform package. this is about getting congress back to work. we can do this right now. if we cultivate the constructive anger of the american people that you have a part-time
congress and a full-time world who is failing to even show up and do their job, we can pass the stop act. >> i love that you're doing this. members of congress when they complain about how much time they have to do that they say just don't do it. are there criminal penalties for members who violate it? >> this falls into the fec code. the initial penalties are civil. but based on egregious violations, it can be referred to a prosecutor for criminal. i joke next time a member of congress calls you for money, call the police. >> could you ask them for money? >> you can update people on the race, attend, talk about what's you are doing but you can't make the -- >> can you spend time in that boiler room asking them how important your campaign is. >> you wouldn't have to do that because the only reason you walk across the street to do that is the ask. if you aren't making the ask you can sit in your office. >> some members go over there and don't make the ask.
>> it's illegal in your congressional office to solicit funds. if you aren't solicitting funds you can call constituents all day long from your office doing your job. >> that's a horrible process and i was horrible at it. i raised most of my money in the district face to face because i did not want to walk over there and sit in a cube and call these people. >> i'm trying to give my colleagues breathing room. i'm not trying to beat them up. i'm beating up the system. i voted for you joe in pensacola, florida. and because you went on public television. you had these half-hour shows on public television to get your message out. >> exactly. >> today's world is dominated by high finance and it's wrong. let's get congress back to work. >> it was public access. it was $50 a half hour. >> that's right. >> because nobody would go on it because it was supposedly so -- >> like color bars? >> and i just bought 24 hours
and i would just talk and have my sign behind me. call me. >> he was an outsider running against the chairman of the county commission. you came with this message of reform and let's fix washington. why is it that only retiring members of congress are willing to lament the amount of time they spend raising money? they all write books. >> do it while they're in there. >> and they're selling you a book for $30. they're still trying to get your money. let's pass the stop act. >> i'm sure you've gotten a great response. >> i'm not dumb. i went to the american people first instead of my leadership. they'd kill it. we've got the stop act.com. call, e-mailior congress. members of congress have been calling you for years. now it's time for you to call them. >> one of the answers, too and this will upset democrats and republicans. first of all, you need to raise the individual limits so you aren't callering everybo inin i
everybody. transparency immediately. the second they give you that big check you scan it and put it out there. it gets rid of the dark money. gets rid of the need to sit in there forever. so you know who is giving you the money, and they can write bigger checks because right now it's a scam. you get hunting dogs giving you checks. >> that's right. >> have you heard from your colleagues on this? everybody makes these complaints off the record but never on the record as you are. >> we have six co-sponsors. that's six more than i anticipated. >> amazing. >> i asked members and colleagues to support it. they said i'd love to but i can't. i went to my democratic opponents in the senate race in florida and said if you'll co-sponsor this i won't push you to take the pledge to stop raising money. i no longer directly solicit money but i beg my democratic
supporters, co-sponsor it and i'll say you don't need to take the pledge now. >> but they're in the race. >> congressman, thank you so much, and good luck. appreciate you dropping by. >> congressman david jolly, thank you. that's does it for us today. >> we want to talk about what we learned today. >> i learned that congressman jolly has a good idea. >> yeah. >> what have you learned? >> that prince has many great songs he's written but maybe a few more than joe believes. >> i just said he's the greatest performer alive. that was his strength. >> steve kornacki picks up the coverage after a quick break. have a great day, everybody. wish your skin could bounce back like it used to? neutrogena hydro boost water gel. with hyaluronic acid it plumps skin cells with intense hydration and locks it in. for supple, hydrated skin.
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