tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC May 10, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT
service phone records still relevant to the 2016 race now, if they ever were? and will the d.c. madame lawyer risk jailtime by happens next, we have no idea. our coverage, this primary night continues now with lawrence o'donnell. >> rachel, can you come join us for a little election chat? >> yes, i'll be there. >> donald trump and bernie unbelievable are both projected winners but bernie sanders isn't much closer to catching hillary clinton and donald trump isn't much closing to you nighting the public party. >> i think with somebody like donald trump you would see a race to the bottom across our country. >> less than 48 hours to go before donald trump meets with house and gop leadership. >> he is not ready to endorse the presumptive nomty.
>> it will take more than a week, just to prepare and unify this party. >> we have a nominee. it looks like he may be competitive. >> can he win over the establishment? i think he will beat them. >> secretary clinton is campaigning in kentucky today. >> there are real differences what i believe and the presumptive republican nominee. >> trump is an internet -- >> you know, you don't have to vote anymore. save your vote for the general election. forget this one. the primary is gone. >> yes. it is an aspiring message, it reminds me of patrick hen's immortal battle cry, give me liberty or forget this one. i don't give a crap. >> it's another big night for the presumptive nominee, donald trump, the latest from the nbc decision desk. it shows both bernie sanders and donald trump have projected win.
bernie sanders picking up a comfortable win over hillary clinton there and a much bigger win for donald trump who was essentially running unopposed. he picked up more delegates in nebraska where he is protected winner in the republican primary. bernie sanders, his victory speech will be delivered in oregon where bernie sanders is campaigning for next week's oregon primary, expected to be speaking there soon. addressing his win in west virginia. we will go to that when he does speak. joining us now, msnbc political correspondent steve kornacki. steve, what are the exit polls telling us? >> two interesting things revealing things. one in west virginia. we broke it down among hillary clinton voters in west virginia. who would you vote for in the fall, hillary clinton against donald trump? all of them saying they would vote for clinton. a few saying they would be for trump. choke this out, if it's sanders
against trump, who would you vote for? look at that. more than a third of them said trump. you have donald trump supporters in this democratic, voting for sanders. and self-identified trump voters, we asked who would you vote for, 73% for sanders, 33 for clinton. >> steve, we're going to have to leave it there for a moment. bernie sanders is speaking in oregon. bernie sanders in oregon. let's pick up what he has to say. >> thank you, thank you, salem! [ cheers and applause ] hello. thank you!
salem, thank you. and it sure sounds like salem, oregon, is ready for the political revolution. [ cheers and applause ] this is a great turnout and i want to thank all of you for being here. let me begin by giving you some pretty good news. [ cheers and applause ] last week, last week we won a really great victory in indiana. [ cheers and applause ]
and tonight, it appears that we have won a big, big victory in west virginia! [ cheers and applause ] and with your help, we are going to win in oregon next week! [ cheers and applause ] and i want to take a moment to thank the people of west virginia for the tremendous victory, i think it ends up being a double-digit convict very tonight. [ cheers and applause ] this is a state, west virginia, where hillary clinton won by 40
points against barack obama in 2008. [ cheers and applause ] west virginia is a working class state. and like many other states in this country, including oregon, working people are hurting. and what the people of west virginia said tonight, and i believe the people of oregon and kentucky will say next week. it is that we need an economy that works for all of us, not just the 1%.
the people of this country are sick and tired of working two or three jobs. they are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, they are worried to death about the future of their kids, and they do not want to see almost all new wealth and income going to the top 1%. the people of west virginia, of kentucky, of oregon, want an economy that works for all of us. [ cheers and applause ]
they want to have the united states join every other major country, and guarantee health care to all people as a right. [ cheers and applause ] they want to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, and create 13 million jobs. and the people of west virginia, and the people of kentucky, and the people of oregon, understand that in the year 2016, we have got to make public colleges and universities tuition-free. [ cheers and applause ]
and at a time of massive income and wealth inequality where the top 0.1% owns as much wealth as the bottom 90%, the people of oregon, the people of oregon, and kentucky, and west virginia, know, that it is high time for the wealthy and large corporations to start paying their fair share of taxes. [ cheers and applause ] with our victory tonight in west virginia, we have now won
primaries and caucuses in 19 states. and let me be as clear as i can be. we are in this campaign to win the democratic nomination. and we are going to fight for every last vote in oregon, kentucky, california, and the dakotas. [ cheers and applause ] now, we fully acknowledge, we are good in arithmatic, that we have an uphill climb
ahead of us but we are used to fighting uphill climbs. [ cheers and applause ] we have been fighting uphill from the first day of this campaign, when people considered us a fringe candidacy. and our message to the democratic delegates who will be assembling in philadelphia, we may have many disagreements with secretary clinton, there is one area we agree. that is, we must defeat donald trump.
[ cheers and applause ] and i am very happy to tell you we will defeat donald trump. [ cheers and applause ] and if you look over the last month or six weeks at every national poll, bernie sanders defeats donald trump by big numbers. [ cheers and applause ] but it is not only national polls where we defeat trump by bigger numbers than secretary clinton. it is state poll after state
poll after state poll. [ cheers and applause ] just in the last day, just in the last day, two national polls have us beating trump by bigger margins than secretary clinton. four state-wide polls. in pennsylvania, in pennsylvania, ohio, florida, and new hampshire, and every one of those polls we beat trump or do better against trump than does secretary clinton. [ cheers and applause ] but the reason that our campaign is the strongest campaign against trump is not just the polls, it is that our campaign is generating the energy and the
enthusiasm that we need to have a large voter turnout in november. [ cheers and applause ] democrats and progressives win national elections when the voter turnout is high, when millions of people are prepared to stand up and fight back. that is what our campaign is all about. [ cheers and applause ] i am very proud to tell you that taking on virtually the entire democratic establishment, senators, and governors, and members of congress
and mayors, despite all of that opposition, we have now received well over 45% of the pledge delegates. [ cheers and applause ] bernie has entered the familiar stage of his speech. rachel, you were with him on vermont on friday and why change what's working? he said we're in it to win it? >> it's interesting this point of a sanders campaign. he says we're in it to win it and told me if they don't have the pledge delegate healed at the end of the race they will go to the convention anyway and fight for the platform so that will become the fight. it'll be interesting to see. if at the end of the race he stays in not just through california and dakotas but through washington, d.c. i dent thou don't know what he wants other than to win. he is running to win.
if and when i think he does not win because i think hillary clinton does have an insurmountable lead i don't know honestly what he'll try to get. his stump speech hasn't changed one iota and does not seem to be building an organization that would directly capitalize on what he's doing. that's why he continues to be super newsworthy even though the delegate map isn't changing. we don't know how it will end. >> steve kornacki, what more can you tell us about the democrats. >> i just got a bit of news in nebraska. what you're look at here is what happened in nebraska back in march. they had caucuses there. bernie sanders won the caulks big. this is the one that counts and gave out delegates for this but had a primary in nebraska. democratic primary, nonbinding no, no delegates at the stake but gets at the heart of a major argument the clinton campaign has been making.
primary and caulks you have more people vote and it helps hillary clinton and hurts bernie sanders. this is the caucus from march. bernie sanders wins it by 14 points. they are still counting the votes. 40% is in but hillary clinton right now is getting 59% of the vote, bernie sanders is getting 41%. i can tell you the decision desk here at nbc is not going to call the race but let the returns come in but the associated press about 15 minutes ago looked at the returns and said they are calling nebraska for hillary clinton in the democratic primary. this is significant because the turnout here looks like it's going to be three to four times larger than it was for the caucus that bernie sanders won. so you think of those small states where bernie sanders racked up big margins and caucuses whether idaho, alaska, utah, places like that. the clinton campaign has been saying if those state has primaries where you don't have
to give up hours of time, you could just show up and work they've been saying more people vote, we do better. if you look at these results in nebraska what we are seeing and they're still counting our decision desk won't touch it. only the appreciated press has. if you go by what the press says it bolsters what the clinton campaign says, a primary in nebraska, a completely different result at least from what we're seeing from the caucus. >> we're also joined by eugene robinson and kathericatherine r and steve schmitt. gene, here we have this mixed result for hillary clinton tonight in a campaign that seems inevitable if you do the delegate math. >> yeah. >> but there's something about watching bernie sanders go out there and give victory speeches that has to be unnerving to the clinton campaign. >> got to be unnerving. got to be annoying. it's got to be a lot of things,
it's not fun, right? this was not actually -- i understand what steve kerr nacke said and i think that's a good and valid point to make, however this was a beauty contest tonight in nebraska. it did not count. >> no one campaigned. voters knew it. >> how energetic are you about getting to the polls. >> exactly and when it counted, bernie sanders won so this is not a great night for hillary clinton, even though because bernie sanders is going to gain, what, 3 delegates, you know, a net of three delegates or something, this is just insignificant progress in trying to erode her big delegate lead. so that's basically unchanged and there's another primary off the board so she's got to feel good about that yet it's hard to feel good when you're quoted as delivering a victory speech. you can't get rid of this guy. he keeps going and as rachel just said you don't quite know what his end game is, what he
wants. he runs as if he intends to win yet there doesn't seem to be a way to win. >> at the very least he keeps hillary from pivoting toward the center. in another atmosphere at this point at this month she would probably pivot toward the center has bernie wants to keep her tethered left. >> if clinton tries to run to trump's left -- >> where is the center? >> that's my question. >> she came up renewed for the public option. halfway to medicare for all at this point in the race. >> let's see if there is a center from the republican perspective. steve schmidt, where is the center if either of the three wanted to find it? >> look, let's look at the carried interest loophole. republicans have made this a major point of conservative
orthodoxy against any type of tax increase including justifying and very difficult to justify it essentially different tax rate if you work in the financial services industry. donald trump said no to that. he's rejected the free trade premise of the modern republican party. he is to the left of hillary clinton as we conventionally define it with regard to the iraq war and with regard to the libya intervention so as we've gotten used to presidential politics over the last several cycles with a pretty predictable issue set, pretty good sense where the 50 yard line is on this election scrambles a lot of that up. >> rachel, it seems to me the trump chain is such a fog of i don't even know what you call it. can't call them positions exactly. that i -- it's not clear to me voters have a fixed notion on the map of right to left where donald trump is. >> to catherine's point, you end
up having the play out of the playbook and talk to your party's ideological end and come back to the center. >> i think trump is a rorschach test and lets people project whatever they want to project upon him. if you want to hear he's going to raise that, he has said something to justify that. and i think that's why it's so hard to pin him down on policy. because he wants to be everything to everyone. he wants to let people project whatever their fantasies and desires but on the greatness of america here to come. >> when he writes stuff down he steps to right down right wing stuff. his tax policy is really, really -- >> yeah. >> then he takes it back. i think that's -- that was a great way of putting it. he is a kind of a rorschach test.
at the same time i think we have an idea of the traditional left/right spectrum and trump doesn't play on that ax significance. he plays on a different axis. >> celebrity axis, something from this, part of the celebrity or populist axis. >> isn't hillary clinton stuck, though, with the more traditional frame that people use to look at politicians meaning they actually are flapping her in left/right bash dawes they can because they are positions are coherent and clear. >> explicit. >> how fool iron of her to be coherent and clear. >> when it comes down to it, i was looking back today at some of the criticism of that donald trump has levied guns republicans. he criticize the paul ryan and mitt romney and basically always basically criticized republicans from the left. i don't know how he'll criticize hillary clinton besides being super sexist which we've seen.
i'm not sure it'll be predictistic of his govern iing will be. hillary clinton has to sort of ignore that and run her own campaign and make the best positive case for herself regardless of this unoable beast. >> you have to redefine the phrase committed to because, in fact, he made it clear his commitments are not -- >> day to day, hour to hour. >> we'll take a quick break here. rachel, thanks for staying. >> thanks for having me. >> gene, thank you for joining us. coming up, the struggle for republican party unity. what does paul ryan need to hear from donald trump this week?
>> do you see any way to compromise with donald trump, that will not be a betrayal of conservative ideas and -- ? of course, i do. >> who do you suggest conservatives society for? >> well, look, we'll get into this whole thing. what i want to see is all conservatives rally together to win this election and to defeat hillary clinton and make sure we put conservatives in the supreme court, and keep congress, this is the mountain we have to climb. >> that was paul ryan today in an interview with "the wall
street journal." receive corkornacki is back wit us. >> well, they feel their party is divided right now. you can see in west virginia a third of them say this is a party that's going to stay divided after this primary process in nebraska. that number is nearly half of the electorate on the republican side. same thing when you turn around and ask them what do you think that's going to mean for the fall. the vast majority says we'll win anyway in the fall and express confidence. something else we can tell you for con tech, take a look at this. donald trump, a number that will have to be adjusted when all the votes come in tonight and go up because he won big. he won 40.2% of all the votes in the republican primaries and say that's a low number. a lot of non-trump votes and could be read that way. look at the last republican nominee. four years ago, mitt romney when he clinched the nomination, when his last remaining viable opponents dropped out of the race he was basically where trump was, 41.5% and look at this if you go back to 2008 when
mccain clinched it he was under 40%. the 41.5 for romney and 39.9 for mccain trump basically followed a model we've seen a bunch of times. >> thanks, steve. and joining us now rory cooper, senior adviser for the never trump super pac also with us ken cuccinelli from the state of virginia. rory, where does never trump go now? >> well, you know, first i'd look at a couple of things. on the exit polls tonight that's largely a self-selecting group so i don't know what we can pull from that. one interesting thing if you look at the exit polls on the democratic side and disaffected voters looking at bernie sanders as an alternative, i think hillary clinton might owe donald trump a big thank you for her primary win. because you're looking at a race that probably would have been lost by her if it isn't. because donald trump is sucking up all the media attention from
her own character flaws. so what we'll be doing at nevertrump.com and never trump pac is continue to shine a light between what the conservative movement is all about and what donald trump is all about which we feel there's a football field worth of distance between those two things. >> ken cuccinelli, how is that football field worth the distance going to be closed? >> well, as is typically the case, that lies really in the hands of the presumptive nominee. what is he going to do? what positions is he going to take and i would note eugene robinson said something interesting earlier, we have redefine committed talking about donald trump's positions. you ask what does he have to say to paul ryan? it isn't the saying that is really going to cut the mustard here. we need to see over a long period of time an under fire commitment to smaller government, more freedom type principles, conservative principles and that's not something that donald trump has
really excelled at in the past and so that's how you attract disaffected republicans, it's with principles. it isn't with more, you know, more showmanship. that isn't going to cut it. >> let's listen to what paul ryan said today about the upcoming meeting. >> i don't go into thursday with huge expectations other than just to have the kind of conversation we need to start having so we are getting ourselves on the same page as a party. we don't know each other. we talked once a few months ago on the phone and it was a very good conference and i walked him through our agenda project in the house and a very mresant exchange with him. >> we have never seen anything like this and i got to say i think paul ryan is hamming it just perfectly from his perspective. distancing himself from trump, his mission is to remain speaker. he only does that if he wins the house but the most important
thing is winning that house. if that means separating from trump, that's what it means. >> especially if he's afraid that trump's very high unfavorables will hurt the down ballot races and if he aligns himself with trump that could put himself in trouble or the broader view of the party and those other house and senate campaigns who might be in trouble and who could potentially be hurt by the very negative views of trump. >> steve, here are a couple of things we can be sure donald trump does not know. number one, the speaker of the house is more powerful than a presidential candidate. number two, the speak her of the house is more powerful than the president of the united states whenever the speaker of the house chooses to be on matters of legislation. is there any possibility that anyone can make that understood by donald trump before he walks into the speaker's office. >> what he is counting if he's counting on anything besides his gut instinct, it's that the republican electorate, the
actual rank and file voters, some evidence out there they are a lot further along when it comes to rallying around donald trump getting behind his candidacy than the leaders in washington, a lot of the sort of group leaders out there that we've seen. national poll out that shows right now put trump against hillary clinton, republican, how are they voting? 84% of republicans say they'll vote for trump over hillary clinton. that's not quite where he needs to be but that's getting close. mccain was at 90, romney, 93. that's where you need to be in the low 90s so he's already pretty close to that and you look to his path to the nomination, a lot of noise about, well, he didn't get 50% but is in line with what we've seen before so i suspect if we start seeing a couple of polls and saw a few today but if we see more like we saw today within striking distance of hillary clinton there will be a lot of pressure from the rank and tile that wants to beat hillary clinton on the leaders to get on board and beat hillary clinton. >> rory cooper, donald trump is
finally revealing what i've been saying for many, many years which he cannot afford a presidential campaign. he's going to go for fund raises just like everybody has else before him but there is no real trump apparatus for fund raising in the kind of big money they'll node to fund raise. how do they make up that ga >> i don't think they are going to and will have a big problem and to steve's point i don't think romney or mccain anywhere near donald trump unfavorables when it comes to women or hispanics or married women and at the paul ryan meeting, listen when, it comes to the fog of donald trump, he can come and say that he will support any policy position that you may like but you really don't know whether or not he's going to change his mind five minutes later this talking to someone he. what he has to demonstrate he has serious contrition over his major character flaw, conservative movement not just a set of policy principles
although that's a major part but moral leadership and have the values for someone you don't have to turn the tv off when your children will in the room. that's hard to demonstrate to republican leaders and secretary clinton they want to tie themselves to and what will hurt him with republicans in the general election independents which is is this somebody that we believe should be president of the united states? before we go, i want to turn this thought exercise in the other direction. let's imagine that paul ryan wants to support donald trump, really, really wants to support him. what would be the principles and policy positions paul ryan would have to publicly abandon in order to support donald trump? >> well, certainly it isn't so much any particular position except that donald trump has been on both sides of so many issues, whether it's tax, whether it's various parts of immigration, trade, life, certainly a core issue for paul ryan.
i mean what is he todayy and proving some constancy and some expectation of consistency after election day is critical and i don't know how donald trump does that except to power through for five months and not give ground when he's being beaten on by the media and hillary clinton. >> ken and rory and steve, thank you all for joining us. coming up in the war room. has the clinton campaign figured out how to respond to donald trump's attacks?
time for tonight's war room, the presidential campaign war room is where the top campaign officials plan the strategies to handle their candidates' most important challenges where you want to be in a campaign. the clinton war room strategy has been to avoid having their candidate respond directly to donald trump's attacks. here's how hillary clinton handled it tonight. >> insulting women, i don't care what he says about me. i care what he says about other
successful women, women who have done their part, we are after all 51% of the country. [ cheers and applause ] >> today donald trump tweeted the clintons spend millions on negative ads on me and i can't tell the truth about her husband? don't feel sorry for crooked hillary. but the trump war room shifted its attacks to benghazi with a new instagram video captioned hillary has bad judgment. here it is. >> we've seen rage and violence directed at american embassies over an awful internet video. >> she lied to me, she told me it was the fault of the video. >> she said we are going to have the filmmaker arrested who was responsible for the death of your son. >> so she did say to you that the bengazi attack was caused by protests. >> absolutely. >> i don't know why that is funny.
>> with 183 days left for campaign war rooms joining us tonight in the last word war room, steve schmidt and ben le bolt, veteran of the obama war room. what about not directly responding to these kind of trump attacks. >> if i were in the war room tonight what i'd say is the strategy so far has been donald trump goes low and we go high, we focus on substance in the urgent issues before the american people. but winning campaigns are also about compelling contrasts and compelling choices and we need to make a further pivot to make clear that when donald trump attacks women, he doesn't respect women and therefore is not going to stand up for you, with his policies. he's attacked hispanics, he's attacked many others during this campaign and taking each one of those moments to say, this is romney's 47% tape on steroids, i
think it's really important that the campaign stoppeds to those sorts of moments. >> steve schmidt in the clinton war room you're looking at the game films of the republican primaries. do you see any attacks against donald trump or responses to trump attacks that worked? >> not by any of the republican candidates, but the general election will be different. there were five moments coming up. the vice presidential pick, the convention speech and three debates and donald trump will have to clear a plausible commander in chief threshold so when hillary clinton looks at that, there are 282 electoral votes, 12 more needed to win. if she can keep him from recovering with women voters, very difficult for him to win, if she can disqualify him as a plausible commander in chief on grounds of fitness and that is
the real issue that is holding these republicans back from endorsement, it's not an ideological issue, it's not that he put out mean tweets about this person or that person, it's real questions about his temperament and that's how i expect that she'll go at him and do everything she can to open the door, i suspect to moderate republican women and moderate republicans saying, hey, we haven't always agreed but there is a home for you in this campaign. >> let's listen to what hillary clinton said tonight. it fits a little bit of what steve was just saying. >> when you are running for and serving as president, you'd better mean what you say. so when he casually says he doesn't care if more countries get nuclear weapons, i shudder. when he says he wants to withdraw from nato, the most successful military alliance in history, i say and what are we going to substitute for it? so i got to tell you, i am if
i'm fortunate enough to be the nominee i am looking forward to debating donald trump come the fall. >> ben, they're obviously working on a lot of polling that indicates there's a lot of fear of a donald trump presidency out there. inordinate amount of fear among voters. >> i think from a message perspective it's important to lock into one narrative. either donald trump is extreme or he's unsteady. and it's important to stick with that singular kri teague of his foreign policy throughout the campaign. because he has said some very extreme things at the same time he's been all over the map which suggests he'd be an unsteady commander in chief. >> what a pro-clinton super
pac is doing using bits of donald trump from howard stern. let's take a look. >> because nobody respects women more than donald trump. ♪ >> she came to my wedding.
she ate like a pig and seriously the wedding cake was -- it was like missing in action. >> does she have a good body, no. does she have a fat ass, absolutely. i have no respect for her. i think she's highly overrated but when i came out and, you know, you could see there was blood coming out of her eye, blood coming out of her wherever. >> steve that's not from the clinton war room. that's from a super pac they can't coordinate with but is that helpful? >> i don't know that it's helpful or unhelpful. i suspect that most every american woman in this country is going to vote has made an impression of donald trump over the course of the -- over the course of the campaign and i think what we've seen is the real diminishing effect of the 30-second ads as conveyers of negative information. the back and forth between the candidates on the hourly basis in the news cycle, the massive
should the democrats celebrate donald trump's being the presumptive nominee or fear it? "the washington post" editor fred hyatt comes down on the side of tear saying they need to be running smart but scared now for the next six months. joining us catherine rampell and jonathan allen, head of community and content for side wire. the co-author of hrc, a book about hillary clinton. jonathan, we have these new battleground state polls in three states. i think we'll get them up on the screen here. pennsylvania, florida, ohio and what we're seeing there is donald trump basically tied with hillary clinton in pennsylvania and florida and in ohio, we see if they put it up, hillary
clinton with falling behind donald trump. the margin of error is three points so outside the margin of error. bernie sanders doing better in pennsylvania with a lead over trump and in ohio and florida, bernie sanders is essentially tied with donald trump within the margin of error in both of those states. so, jonathan, if that kind of polling holds that's a whole new story for the democrats. >> i think a lot of democrats thought through the republican primary that it would be a great thing to get donald trump than what we've seen is donald trump has decimated everyone in his path. the republican primary electorate is different from the general election electorate. if they think it's going to be an easy election for hillary clinton whose favorable numbers are bad. not as bad as donald trump's but still pretty bad. >> catherine, you have to get
more of them. you can't make assumptions based on one but there has been a consistent -- bernie sanders has had much bigger leads than that and we've seen his lead narrow now. but those numbers for hillary clinton are very alarming. >> they are very alarming if you're hillary clinton or if you're -- if you're aghast at donald trump, over the many things he stands for or doesn't stand for. >> the 47% afraid of donald trump. >> right, you know, i think what it comes down to as jon said her many unfavorables are quite high. if not for donald trump she would be historically at the extreme end in terms of favorability or rather unfavorability but have the fact that the american population has historically high levels of distrust in the government, in washington, d.c. i mean we actually have poll data going back like 50 years that shows americans are very, very unhappy with their political leadership. they're very unhappy with the direction that this country is going in.
there's poll data to confirm that, as well and to some extent hillary clinton or not to some extent, to a large extent hillary clinton is associated with the establishment, with the status quo, with obama's policies, if americans are unhappy with the direction that the economy that the country is going in and hillary clinton represents that, regardless of what donald trump stands for they're going to be a little turned off by her and they're going to vote for the candidate who claims to be putting his thumb in the eye of the establishment. >> jon, as the superdelegates stare at these polls and if we do as i say this is one poll, if three, four weeks from now, five weeks from now there is a bunch of polls indicating this same kind of thing, at some point the superdelegates are going to start to get nervous about what's happening here to their presumptive nominee. >> i think democrated elected officials by their nature are nervous people, lawrence. >> yes, they are. yes, they are. >> i think david plouffe used to call them bed wetters in the democratic party wringing their
hands and, well, wetting their bed as cording to him. i think that the bernie sanders pomming is generally viewed among democratic elites as something that would change if he suddenly started getting hit. the democratic campaign is as acrimonious as it's been among the supporters of the two candidates and actually hasn't been that negative by historical standards and some concern if bernie sanders were to get into a general election against donald trump he might -- those numbers might fold pretty quickly. i don't see or hear or nor am i able to report any movement among superdelegates at this point nor do i expect it. >> catherine, the sanders campaign still, though, insists as they did at the beginning of the show, bernie sanders himself, in it to win it. and so -- and no one figured out what else he might be in this for. >> that's true. as i mentioned before i think part of what he might be angling for is to keep hillary clinton
from tacking toward the center and might be part of it and not just hillary clinton but the democratic party and explicitly said at the doesn't have the delegates going doesn't have the delegates going into the convention, one thing he will be pushing for is to shape the party platform more in his image, in his more progressive mold, fighting for universal health care, for child care, $15 an hour minimum wage, things like that. so even if he's not ultimately victorious on that level, perhaps he'll have some influence on the other matters. >> that will have to be the last word tonight. thank you both for joining us. msnbc's live primary coverage continues now with chris hayes. ♪ good evening. from new york, i'm chris hayes. bernie sanders tonight winning another primary over hillary