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tv   With All Due Respect  MSNBC  May 13, 2016 3:00pm-4:01pm PDT

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that. >> we're out of time. going to do it for this week. we'll be back monday with more m mtp daily. "with all due respect" starts now. p. the donald dos and don'ts. each reenforcing their worst case as a rule nvulnerabilitiev. last night the clinton foundation helped arrange for a for profit company with folks with close connections to the clinton. included is a woman named julie
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mcmahon who the journal describes as a close friend of mr. clinton. the washington post early this morning published newly found audio for more than two decades ago. the paper says trump pretending to be his own spokesman calling himself john miller when talking to a people magazine reporter about his first divorce and interactions with other women. this morning on the today show, trump denied that the voice was his. >> they have obtained a recording with a voice of someone that they say is, in fact, you. someone pretending to be a pr person. this is from 25 years ago. let me play a portion of the tape for you. >> what's your name again? >> john miller. >> what is your position? >> handling pr because he gets so much of it. >> the person talks about his
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dating exploits and his divorce and things like that. the simple question, are you aware of the tape? is it you? >> no. i don't know anything about it. you're telling me about it for the first time. it doesn't sound like my voice at all. i have many, many people that are trying to imitate my voice. you can imagine that and this sounds like one of the many scams. doesn't sound like me. it was not me on the phone. when was this, 25 years ago. >> in the early '90s. >> you're going so low to talk about something that took place 25 years ago. i guess you're saying under a p presumed name. >> that's trump on his controversy. he was asked to respond to the clinton foundation controversy. >> i know it's a rough story. people have been talking about it for a couple of years. that's right next to my golf club. i have a great club a few minutes away. people have been talking about
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that for years. i have no idea what went on. i don't. it's a bombshell, it's no doubt about it. >> hillary clinton has not responded. the clinton foundation released a statement saying the wall street journal piece misleads readers. here is bill clinton responding last night on a rope line in kentucky. >> did cgi break the law? >> no. i haven't had chance to read it carefully. i think my foundation -- >> you deny they broke the law in any way? >> yes. >> neither of the stories exploded way i thought they would based on the topics. maybe one or both of them will pick up steam. right now would you say or either represent a threat? >> they are both on brand. with trump, it's what did this
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whacky guy do next and with clinton it's the foundation and all this stuff. the trump thing has more fire. are we afraid of the unknown of trump or the known of clinton. how whacky is he. visualize that you're donald trump and you're posing as somebody else calling to give good press not only about donald trump but say about woman. that's nuts. >> he's acknowledged in a court document he's done this in the past, played his own p.r. guy. reporters in new york have talked about he did it. >> what he should have done, when i had an ad agency, we had 50 employees and would hire someone with a british accent to
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come in. >> he should have had fun with it. >> to hide behind it and say you didn't do it, neither one of them are damaging blows. because they are bizarrely on brand but long term, if i'm putting stuff this my pocket, this is a bit harder. >> they're both dog bites. trump whacky, the clintons, something weird is going on. i think they both have legs. on the trump thing, he's going to have to answer directly. did you ever do this? is it really not your voice? how do you know it's not your voice. on the clinton side, this thing comingles all sorts co-mingles all sorts of things. it's going to come back. >> it's so baited in. the trump stuff is more interesting and digestible. you glaze over with the clinton stuff. you hear e-mails with clinton
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and foundation stuff. it's kind of boring and muddling. the trump stuff is fun and easily digestible. the fact that both the clinton is boring and the trump stuff is unknown. >> what do you think trump will say when asked about it more directly? >> the big wall foot for trump whether it's howard stern interviews, i was an entertainer, grow up. the lopsided coverage of those news stories is a luster of the other things. the press, no surprises, more interesting in many trump than any other human being alive. is this a danger to hillary? >> i think it is. the clinton high command. we said are you worried that trump can dominate the news
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against you. they said our job is to not let that happen. i got to say, some days trump does not benefit from the news but this, these early day show, if he wants to be the story, he can be. i think that puts her at a disadvantage. her message is sunk in now. >> it's very simple. donald comes on. you lean in. hillary comes on, you lean back. network programmers, that's it. america bought the trump pilot, now they want to see the show. it's his to win or lose. say what you want. we're going to watch trump all the time, morning news and night. that can blow him up or blow him up. >> she says i want to be in news every day. i don't want trump to lead every night. i don't want it to always be a trump piece. what can she do? >> she's got to be great counter puncher. the counter program has to be smart. you have to wait. you'll have something to play with every day. >> her best tv effort will never
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be as good as his. >> she's got to be on message. >> he could be the lead every day and blow himself up. he could also be the lead and the country says this is the story. this is the guy. if i were her, i would be on saturday night live next weekend doing something fun. she's pretending she's someone else. she's got to stay in her lane. she's a serious person but kind of have some winks at his expense. obama has been very good, i think he's been the best attack dog. >> trump will do interviews when there's controversy swirling around him. when she has controversy swirling, she doesn't want to talk to the press. her people are in a bunker about it with her. i think it's going to be hard for her. there's a lot of opposition
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research that comes out about both of them. trump will still be out front domina dominating. >> the good and bad news is the airways are his. there's nothing hillary clinton is doing to take the cameras away from donald trump because he's much more entertaining. >> she could go on fifth avenue and shoot somebody. she could light herself on fire like a buddhist monk in vietnam and it's what trump think about hillary clinton lighting herself on fire. >> she gets elected an something happens in the news, she's going to comment and going forward, the cameras will still -- donald trump represents 50 million americans. he's going to be weighing in. >> she'll be saying those immortal words, trump lives. when we come back, the candidate who likes to brand everything. we'll ask donny for his expertise after these words from our sponsors.
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when it comes to presidential campaigns, the guidesing theory of this program is clear. the candidate who bests controls his or her own public image and defines the opponents image wins, period. carl rove was the latest to weigh in. he wrote this week that the key to this election is quote, candidate success and emphasizes their principle selling points and undermining each other's. lucky for us, we have our brand man here onset. walk us through the trump brand audit. >> it's pretty clear what he wants it to be. the king of deal making. a strong leader who doesn't get pushed around and a straight talking guy who tells it like it is. >> pretty clear what the clinton people want you to think about
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trump. they use phrases like loose cannon. not presidential. a con-man and a raging narcissist. >> i'm going to go back to what i say. this is about fear on both sides. if you're trump, you want to alleviate the fears. you're john wayne. you're a sheriff coming into town and you're there to protect the little guy. blow up the town if you need be. the ends justify the means. basically, everything he needs to do is i'm strong, i'm in charge. don't be afraid of me. >> i'll be clear because i don't want them to miss the understanding. the danger for her is you look at that negative list.
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those negatives have positives. i want a guy who is a loose cannon. i want a loose cannon dealing with putin. >> either the loose cannon will clean things up or be the barry goldwater ad. you guys have talked about this, election is coming down to suburban women, married women. if i was running clinton's campaign, everything would be about mommy, you can't put your kids in harms way. honey, your husband may not come from work. he is martin sheen of the dead zone. you don't want him saying it's my -- he's scary. >> you'll hear not just the clintons say but you'll hear suburban women say it, you'll hear military people. everybody will say it. a lot of people i talk to say if
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the price of trying to change washington on a loose cannon, we're willing to do it. >> the thing is, it's too high of a price if it can end the world. that's what you sell. that is, you say what happens if he has a bad morning and he calls putin and says too risky. >> let's talk about the clinton brand now and the brand she's trying to build and reenforce. >> i'm sorry. senator and secretary of state. it emphasizes the history making possibility of having the first female possibility here in the state. also a practical, pragmatic style of governing and strong will and strength. >> here is what the trump team is trying to sell. corrupt hillary. that's the moniker he uses all the time. she's also been fighting the frames that she's out of touch.
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establishment politician and her presidency would represent barack obama's third time. finally, she's in the pocket of wall street special interest. what does clinton need to do to reenforce her positives and try to keep trump from trframing he. >> safety. >> things are pretty good. we got to change things, but i'm safe. he's not. i'm safe. i've been there. i will continue to do it. i'm safe. honey, your kids will come home. he's not safe. i'm safe. >> people vote on emotion. first female president. there will be people who vote on that and be inspired. what else can she talk about to have people see the brand that's not just safe and boring but emotional. it's all negative. >> it's all negative trump. the positive of that is safety. brands are about authenticity. in reality, at best she's boring. at worst, she's untrustworthy. you make the status quo sexier
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than the fear of the unknown. unknown as won in six of the seven last elections. hope and change were all you need. those were blank pieces of paper. bill clinton was a blank piece of paper. you make that wrap sheet too scary. >> they're already calling her an enabler. there's a reason for doing that. the smoking gun, i would be worried about is jeffrey epstein. went to jail for getting massages from 14-year-old kids. if any way bill clinton was in the same space of that, hillary will go down with that. >> that's part of corrupt and untrust untrustworthy. >> that's part of yuck. i think my kind of intel tells
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me that's because -- then it's not just you stood by your fi filllandering husband, that's an ugliness we have not seen anywhere. that's what i would be worried about. >> they'll both have surrogates and all sorts of ways to get at the message. who is a better political athlete in defining their own brand and going on the offense ? is it close? >> donald trump is one of the best branding human beingings, communicator communicator communicators, the guy blows me away. i can tell you his strengths, his weaknesses. i've never seen a more clearly
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defined, managed brand than what this guy does for himself. it's authentic. >> when we come back, donny and i will explore the veep station options for donald trump and hillary clinton after this quick commercial break. e*trade is all about seizing opportunity. and i'd like to... cut. thank you, we'll call you. evening, film noir, smoke, atmosphere... bob... you're a young farmhand and e*trade is your cow. milk it. e*trade is all about seizing opportunity. sign up at and get up to six hundred dollars. quite like the human foot. introducing the 255 horsepower lexus is 300 all-wheel-drive. with twenty-five percent more base horsepower. once driven, there's no going back.
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brands of the likely nominee, hillary clinton and donald trump. they'll have three major opportunities to define themselves in the general election when they pick their running mates. first up is the veep stakes. there's lots of personalities to be considered. let's start with trump. what kind of pick do you think would do him the best in terms of enhancing his brand? >> he can go deeper on his brand or do a brand extension. the traits he's got already, which is strong, masculine, protective, all things or he can do a brand extension which is woman on a ticket. someone more of a moderate in certain areas that contrast with him that extends his brand. i think there's one candidate that checks off every thing and it's tom rich. he was a congressman. he was a governor. he need a guy that looks a certain part. what was so great about the
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clinton-gore campaign, he didn't need another southern but it was too good looking young, southern guys. i think he fits -- and guess what, he's part of one of the three swing states that are most criminal. >> and he has a blue kcollar background. he has a state background. very valuable. let's talk about hillary clinton
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from a brand new perspective. what do you think she will pick to help her brand? >> does she go deep in her brand or extend it? i think she does more of a brand extension. hillary is kind of boring. at best she's boring. what do you do? i go castro. i go a sexy young hispanic. mitt romney got 30% hispanics. he got killed in the election. if you now have a young, appealing hispanic male on the ticket, i think that could be a nail in the coffin. i think that's her first choice by far. i think you need some sizzle. >> here is why i don't agree. ridge is qualified to be president and no one will doubt it based on his resume. castro has a great future but i don't think you can pass him out today. you take too big a risk. you ruin the part of the brand that says we're ready. with all due respect to the
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career he's had, he's risky. >> trump is so risky as president, that you put mar risk averse candidate there. because hillary is there, you're not thinking, i don't think people vote on one gunshot away, got forbid. i think they vote on the overall gestault of e two people. >> trump will make his pick late. he may make it at the convention. the democrat convention is literally the following week. that gives clinton a small window. she needs a really big wow pick. people will still be talking about trump's pick when she makes hers. whoever trump pick s a wow pick. picture trump and ridge on stage. picture hillary and cane. he's a competent guy versus castro. she needs sex appeal and newness. the other thing she could do,
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but she wouldn't, pit bull. andrew cuomo. some street fighter who is her attack dog. it will make her look weaker because trump will say she can't fight her own battles. >> i think she may find a prominent republican to join her on the ticket. maybe a woman. that will be a wow pick because it would be a republican, a woman and be doubling down on the historic first. >> who would that be? give me name. >> i don't know who would be willing to do it. maybe a female business person. any female would just shake up the race and if it's a republican -- >> not warren. i think warren hurts her. >> she wants someone she wants to work. i don't think she wants to spend four years working with elizabeth warren. that's my hunch. >> the wow factor would be huge and emphasize the message we know is big which is this is
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crossover appeal. >> if she could find someone like that, i don't see the names the, if you could pull it off, wow. >> there may be some retired senator or governor. >> we know the list. in theory, that's great. name three. >> i'm working on it. i'm not sure and b. >> i've got one. >> nancy. >> how about oprah. >> she's not a republican. coming up, it was a very big week for the republican party unity project. we'll talk about that with michael steele. >> why does he get a super man thing? i get stupid glasses.
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joining us from washington,
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d.c., michael steele and from 30 rock msnbc kacie hunt joining us. i want to ask you both the same question starting with mr. steele. what happened this increase that increase the probability you think of donald trump getting elected president? >> the fact that he was able to walk into washington and pretty much command the stage. i think it sent a strong signal across the country on a number of fronts. one, the establishment ocht party is willing to meet with him and talk with him and work with him. two, that it was reported by you and others that he sat in that meeting and did the important thing and that was listen. he did not come in bragadocious and waving the flag. i thaug it was good in teought . >> say the day before all those lovely sweepstake poles come out
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and it was a ten-point spread, would he have gotten the same rosy carnation like response or people been a bit more backed off? >> that's a good question. i think it would have been a little more reserved. i think the polling helped him. the narrative going into that meeting was that donald trump was getting trumped by hillary clinton. he's getting bae inting beaten at that meeting. when that hit it sent a did i have message this this thing could be competitive. some of us said long before then that i see this as a 50/50 race now. i think it's real opportunity for both of these candidates who are flawed as we awe know . it would have been a slower response. >> it helped a ton. i think that was the biggest luck he's had since he became the presump titive nominee.
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the polls more than ever at any election with this candidate are going to start to become to dictate the action. >> from the point of view of the clinton cam bapaign did they th trump had a good week. are they looking for division in the republican party. >> i think they are trying to push as aggressively as they can this narrative that the republican party is still divided and will continue to be divided. you saw a bit of noise from the never trump people that something they are looking at. i think the challenge for the clinton campaign is going to be pushing back against whatever it is that donald trump tries to sell as the new version of himself. you're seeing it with muslims. you're seeing these, the leases
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that we were getting that feel like maybe you could have sent that on wednesday but things have changed a little bit. i think reminding people of that and keeping it fresh will be really tough. i think their challenge, it used to be she could go to chipotle and everybody would follow her every step and that's not the case between now and november. >> if we were going to do a weekly score card every friday, it's going to be did trump do good or bad. hillary will be on the sidelines. mike, i'd love to ask you about the tax thing. i was emphatic about the tax thing. >> aren't you always cuckoo on morning joe. >> donald's a friend. i like donald. i think we have one job or one job is to pay our taxes. if he cannot display basically his simple job as an american, our one responsibility, he does not deserve that office. >> let's listen to trump.
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weigh in on whether you think that some of us that he seemed a little rattled about what's going on here. >> what the financials don't show is your tax rate. they don't show whether you paid a low tax rate. >> i try hard to pay as little tax as possible. i've said that for the last two years. i fight very hard. this country wastes our money. they take our tax money and throw it down the drain. >> what is your tax rate? >> it's none of your business. you'll see it when i release. >> that last line, the tone of that. we have heard him snap but that seemed a little bit peevish. >> it was a bit but i think you didn't expect it. it resonates around the country. there's tno one i talked to inside washington that thinks this is a basic deal. they like the fact that it's like, fine. besides, what do you think it's going to do. what does it change? after everything that donald trump has said in this campaign, all the stuff that's happened at
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his rallies, you think releasing the tax returns will be the kryptonite. >> if he pays 12%, nobody cares. that's what rich guys do. if he gives zero dollars to charity. i think that leaves something. i'm going to go back talking about earlier, the fear of the unknown. now you have the guy who is the fake p.r. guy. you make the unknown, so shaky and all those pieces together. >> you're speculating yourself into a tizzy. >> cuckoo not tizzy. >> let me ask you about the wall street journal story. are they surprised it didn't get as much attention as we thought it would. >> it represented major
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distraction for the clinton campaign. i think in broad picture, details of today's story, if there are stories like this continuely between now and november, it will prevent the clinton campaign it will be a problem. i think they think this is going to be a very close election and so a certain extent, there's still major question marks about how to make sure you take them out. every day they are not focused 100% on doing that is not a day as good as it could be. >> i'm still confused about where clinton's allies are on this. do they think it will be a close election or do they think they will break his back and blow him out.
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>> i think they're still in wats and see mode. thai waiting to see what they will do over the summer to try to attack trump and go after him. i think they think it's very important that they say now it's going to be a close election. complacency is really their enemy here. if their voters think she's got this, it's real problem. i think they want to prevent that starting now. >> you and i agree that trump had a good week with that trip to washington. if he said i think i had a great week, but what should i be concerned about? >> making sure he redirects the brand message and get back to talking about policy to the extent he can and the extent he has in the past. bring that back in the conversation. get off the conversation about who doesn't like him and what percentages are against him and focus on a forward looking message as he entered the campaign and as he corrected
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several times tlouts the campaign. if he does that then he can continue to build up these positive weeks going forward. >> can i ask you a question? do you think he has the ability to go deep on policy? there's a classic -- he's a type of business leader, they don't have the ability nor the desire to go anywhere but up here. some guys just don't -- they have add. i'm not saying he has that. you can sit with him -- >> i've had talks with him about things like nato and he goes deeper and more thoughtful about the public opinion and the substance and for whatever reason he shows in public. i think he almost doesn't want to show that side. he wants to be 30,000 feet. he understands much better than he lets on. >> why wouldn't he? >> maybe he is will. >> maybe he's waiting to do it in the debates and stun hillary clinton. are we done guys? i'm asking the control room. yes, we are. thank you for coming on.
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donald trump says data targeting voters is quote, overrated. we'll have our very own here to rate the analysis of trump's. if you're watching in washington, d.c., you can listen to us on bloomberg, 99.1 in the district. we'll be right back. vo: across america, people are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes with non-insulin victoza®. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar. but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®. he said victoza® works differently than pills. and comes in a pen. victoza® is proven to lower blood sugar and a1c. it's taken once a day, any time. victoza® is not for weight loss, but itay help you lose some weight. victoza® works with your body to lower blood sugain 3 ways: in the stomach, the liver, and the pancreas. vo: victoza® is an injectable prescription medicine that may improve blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes when used with diet and exercise.
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joining us now for our weekly by the numbers segment, our political mad scientist here to unpack the reality of what trump says his plan will be. thanks for coming in. what do you think is behind trump saying he's not going to go big on data but big on events? >> he laid out a coherent theory. he sees this as a candidate centric exercise through mass media. that comes out of the type of branding, self-promotion environment that he's familiar with. think about the way he would have approached something like the apprentice. the goal of the apprentice was to get in front of as many
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people as possible. there's no downside to put a billboard for the apprentice in front of people who might prefer to watch will and grace. there's a huge down side to putting a get out the vote message this front of hillary clinton supporter if you're donald trump. he very much bringing the same sensibilities that you want to bring a big audience through mass media and applying it to the logic of politics. it's about realitying there's peop -- realizing there's people you don't want to communicate with. >> he spends $1.9 billion of media exposure. he's making a mistake here. it's not an either or. these guys have talked about on the show, it's going to come down to a few special groups. all of marketing today, all of advertising, used to be you're on a 60-second commercial and
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billboards. it's what's going on here and what's showing up on the phones. i don't think he has a choice. i don't think he has time to do it. this is the one strategic thing that can cost him the election. do you agree with that? >> it's hard to imagine you run a modern campaign without thinking about individually targeted communication. he did get through the primary. he hardly did any knocking on door, phone calls. i can see why he thinks he has a winning approach. it's difficult in waning election environment to imagine you rely solely on free media and some sort of crudely purchased television program. >> let's talk about skill. his bigst event for people in the nomination fight.
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>> who goes to a candidate's events? one assumes it's likely people who are already their supporters and most likely those who are already intending to vote. campaigns want to talk to people who are persuadable, probably not likely to be going to a large scale candidate rally. people who are up for grabs or passive supporter who need to be mobilized. if somebody is going to an event, you want to get to be people who aren't likely to vote. >> i wonder if you can do that at the scale and scope. even going up to 30,000 people in a rally to 70,000 people is
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negliab negligble. >> you have 15 million by tend of the primaries. it will be 120 homillion people voting. coming up, donny reviews the news and us after this. moderate to severe crohn's disease is tough, but i've managed. except that managing my symptoms was all i was doing. and when i finally told my doctor, he said humira is for adults like me who have tried other medications but still experience the symptoms
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it feels like every week is bigger than the last. there's almost too many news events and we covered a lot of them on the show. we're not perfect. that's why we asked donny to step into his ombudsman shoes.
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>> you may know me from big idea, today show, the today show. >> donny is here. spend a lot of time in front of the mirror. >> my new scripted comedy, donny and the apprentice. i'm on television a lot and spend a lot of time thinking about television. i'm been watching "with all due respect" all week. i have some interesting thoughts. let's start where all political news starts these days with mr. donald trump and even many trump his interview on this week was kind of a shocker when it came to the republican party. >> does the party have to be together? does it have to be unified? i'm very different from everybody else that's run for office. i don't think so. >> doesn't have to be unified? >> i don't think so. >> that's the look of a guy order add ruben sandwich and was told there's no russian dressing. the media swarmed d.c. because
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the donald was in town for his big meet and greets with reince priebus and paul ryan. we had great team coverage. i like to use some comedy and you got one of the great contemporary comedians mr. lindsey graham riffing on the comedy of immigration. >> i don't give a crap about your financial plan if you're going to deport my grandmother. >> anita dunn and the great jeff daniels. >> i'm not going to let you go to the airport without giving me an answer on this question. >> he's not the best case scenario, john. that's my answer. >> nice throwback to the news room. i love the show. season three just okay. there's one story you didn't cover. >> you believe in aliens or you don't. one presidential candidate can't seem to stop talking about them. is hillary clinton winning the ufo decmographic.
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>> get on this story. i've been on it since 2004. >> you really wanted to understand who we are as a culture, like who we are as a society, year 2004. it's an ad. >> i'm sure the democrats will have an ad lampooning mr. trump posing as a fake pr guy in the early '90s. you can't make this stuff up. >> donny, john baron is on the phone for you. >> johnny, boy. i haven't heard from you in a while. what have you got for me? >> donny giving us honest. >> lindsey graham, he and trump talked, extended talk about foreign policy. i thought in a week where trump didn't get enough credit for a lot of finesse moves. >> i think it's incredible considering how much they have gone through and how much donald trump has dragged lindsey graham
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through the mud or tried to, gave his cell phone out. lindsey graham has taken every pot shot. the two of them have a phone call and graham admitting he asked some pretty decent foreign questions. unsurprising he's still not going to be voting for trump. >> i'm going to rule out that lindsey graham will say trump is the best choice. >> coming in and covering this one, i'm amazed at how much the republican party can trash donald trump, call him dangerous, say he's untrustworthy and shouldn't have the nuclear codes and an idiot which is what they have been calling him and saying we're going to support him. >> part of it is you meet the guy and he's incredibly
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charming. he's a celebrity for a reason. politicians get elected and become celebrities. he as a very regal way about him. that's what's going to be happening more and more and more. he's the ultimate salesman. he knows how to make somebody feel special. i wasn't voting for trump. i said something about he might win iowa. he calls me up. you're one of the people who talked me into running. i'm like what, i never talked to you. by the end of the conversation, i'm like can i help you this any way. >> he's got a donny quality. >> not for the first time i'm going to say to you for all that trump has done, he's done something we've not seen. he goes on the today show and says it wasn't his voice. >> we have seen him do this. we saw him do that when he was talking about the voter pledge when he had everyone raise their hand. he claims he didn't see that
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one. there were a number of other circumstances. to say he hasn't heard about it is quite striking considering in 1990, he did a deposition that said, yes, sometimes i call and pretend i'm a p.r. agent named john baron or john miller. he gets away with it. why? i think from talking to folks on the road, they believe not just the system in washington is rigged, their day-to-day life is rigged. they call their cable company an get an answering machine or can't disconnect because the corporations above them want to take their money. they can't let their kids go to school with the peanut butter and jelly because other kids might get sick. they feel like what has happened to this country. they like that somebody is saying something crazy and not backing down from it. they also, last point, don't trust us. >> thank you. we'll be right back. u listen wh:
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>> big thanks to donny for being here. see you monday. digging into donald's baggage. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. heard trump's unsavory chatter with howard stern and he won't release his past or present tax returns. did he think none of this would


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