tv MSNBC Live MSNBC May 24, 2016 7:00am-8:01am PDT
more of the old lady. i'd like to see her go back to her more you know social side. (vo) pro plan bright mind promotes alertness and mental sharpness in dogs 7 and older. (ray) it was shocking. she's much more aware. (jan) she loves the food. (ray) she wants to learn things. the difference has been incredible. (vo) purina pro plan bright mind. nutrition that performs. good morning, i'm jose diaz-balart in new york. we are following breaking news in pennsylvania. bill cosby is inside a suburban philly courtroom right now.
the 78-year-old actor arriving just a short time ago for a crucial hearing to determine whether he'll go to trial for allegedly drugging and sexually assaulting a woman in 2004. nbc's janet shamlian is live outside the court house in norristown, pennsylvania. janet, what's happening inside that courtroom? >> reporter: jose, good morning to you. as of about ten minutes ago, the hearing had not started yet. it was scheduled to start at 9:30 eastern time. the unknown at this point is whether andrea constad is in court. we saw bill cosby come in 45 minutes ago. a few minutes after his attorneys. he was guide by an assistant but looked strong, was wearing a suit. when he exited his suv he waved to a crowd of supporters here. this is a preliminary hearing. it is the very first time bill cosby is appearing in court on criminal charges. today a judge will decide whether there is evidence enough to go forward with the trial and
the bar is fairly low here. the prosecutors will lay out a case but only a shell of a case. and if andrea constad is not here today, they will be able to read into testimony her comments from her deposition back in 2006 when she accused bill cosby of drugging her and then sexually assaulting her at his home in 2004. that was part of a civil case that was settled out of court. but last year a federal judge came and unsealed those documents and that is when the current district attorney here filed felony charges against bill cosby. so we're waiting to see what happens. it will not be a multi-day hearing. we should know by the end of the day. there are several options for the judge. she can decide not to proceed or set a court date after listening to the testimony here. >> this is the only case cosby is involved in currently, is it? >> reporter: so there are 13
women in three states that have some type of case related to either defamation, sexual assault or sexual battery. additionally civilly he is being sued by his insurance company, aig, which claims it is not responsible for paying his legal fees or any damages to women that are awarded. jose. >> janet shamlian, thank you very much for being with me. i want to bring in ari melber. ari, good morning to you. there are no courtroom cameras and reporters aren't allowed to post updates on twitter. from a procedural standpoint, take us through what's going on inside there. >> what's happening inside right now is the prosecution is making its case that there is basically a prima facia reason to go forward. that they have exceeded probable cause and they have the grounds for a trial. they could put forward testimony out of court which normally wouldn't be allowed at a trial, but they could put forth
statements by the accuser in this case regarding the 2004 incident. they could try to put together other material that supports their theory of the case or try to submit evidence of what mr. cosby has said about this. video or physical evidence was allowed but from the paper records that i've reviewed they don't have that. all of that is the prosecution's burden. they either meet it or they don't. the case either goes to trial or is dismissed. the defense doesn't have to do anything in there. we don't know because we're not allowed in the courtroom. we have people inside who aren't allowed to live e-mail or tweet or anything like that so we'll only know later what's happening. but the defense could get up and try to cross examine witnesses or present their own evidence, they just don't have to. >> and we don't know if andrea is taking the stand or not. >> we don't. it's an interesting one, because the way pennsylvania does this, you have this dry run and you could bring in the accuser or key witnesses, but then obviously you can imagine in terms of the straight strategy,
the chess match here, that previews the key accuser, the key witness for the defense. so bill cosby's attorneys would love, as any good defense counsel would, they would love to use today's appearances to gather more information about what the prosecution is going to do in the future so they can rebut it. >> ari melber, thank you very much. i want to bring in nbc's craig melvin who's covered this case from the beginning and former prosecutor, karen de soto. karen, if you were representing cosby, what would your strategy be today? >> i practiced in pennsylvania so my whole thing is a fishing expedition. i use a probable cause hearing to get as much information as i can. it is a very low standard. the judge usually puts them through. but if i'm successful i might be able to throw out a couple counts or try to get the charges lesser instead of indecent aggravated sexual assault i would go for indecent assault. >> what are the differences as
far as what are the possible penalties. >> well, the possible penalties, obviously one is lesser than the other. you take away the aggravated so it's less time. even with the aggravated in pennsylvania, he's a first-time offender so it's not going to be between the five and ten years, it's going to be a lot lower than that. if they win their trial and he gets to the sentencing phase. we're not even there yet. but as a defense attorney, this is my one opportunity, unlike a civil case. i don't get an opportunity to do depositions. so this is it for me. as much information as i can get out of the witnesses, i can. unfortunately a lot of the times the victims do not testify because pennsylvania is allowed to read in hearsay testimony. >> craig, put things into perspective for us. how big is this case for cosby? >> well, america's one-time tv dad, america's dad is out on a million dollar bond. that's a pretty big deal. here's the thing, though. there's a chance that this thing gets thrown out today after the preliminary hearing.
if that does happen, you correct me if i'm wrong, the chances are low. >> very low. unfortunately, he made so many admissions, and he made admissions not only himself in depositions but also to the victim's mother. so if he testifies, then he's going to get the higher counting and it's going to go forward. >> and that's the thing. so now you're going to have presumably after this, this thing moves forward. keep in mind we're talking about the 2004 incident with the woman who at the time was a temple university employee who viewed cosby as a friend and mentor. she goes over to the suburban mansion and the claim is that she was not just drugged and assaulted, but that she was unconscious. that he used three pills. he has denied all of these allegations. but this was a case that had been resolved civilly. all of a sudden, dozens of women come forward. only after that do they decide to open this case. they also opened it because the statute of limitations was staring them in the face as
well. >> and they opened it because this was a platform for the district attorney. i'm going to prosecute bill cosby. obviously we're all sad and upset, this is bill cosby who was an icon, but the fact that somebody was using this as a campaign platform i think is very disturbing. >> i think the most important thing is justice either way. who is hurt and who isn't hurt, the important thing is justice. but let's talk about that 2004 to 2016. why now? >> why now? because it was a campaign platform. he said if elected he would prosecute bill cosby. this case was reviewed by the prosecutor. this is going to be a bone of contention in the preliminary hearings with the discovery, because as part of the civil case, the prosecutor allegedly said that they would not go forward with charges. so there's a lot of disturbing things there. >> i've spent some time on the phone with constand's attorney. this is not a woman who had been clamoring for the limelight. >> didn't come forward.
>> no, no. so it would be surprising, to say the least, if she were actually in that courtroom today. but when i talked to her last, she -- again, she led me to believe that this was something that happened years ago, that andrea constand had moved on with her life. she in recent years had come out of the closet, she's a lesbian, and really had no desire to be a part of any of this. and then all of a sudden dozens of women come forward. one or two of the women then approach her and basically say, you know what, you need to be a part of this effort, and that's kind of how she wound up in it. >> karen, explain how something can be solved and resolved legally and then it comes back. >> well, that's going to be one of the questions for this trial. there's going to be a motion to dismiss based on the fact that the prosecutor already reviewed it and threw it out and whether or not that is going to stay.
it only happens in cases where you have these type of jurisdictions that allow district attorneys to campaign. he did use it as his campaign -- almost like his slogan. >> we're talking tv commercials. there were tv ads. >> nothing subtle about it. >> nothing subtle. so that's how it comes back, because in the law, at least when you talk about justice, there is an element that after it's reviewed, there's a final decision. it doesn't usually come back 10 or 15 years later, so this is highly unusual. >> one of the things that was striking as we watch cosby go into the courtroom almost an hour ago now, seeing him today he didn't have his walking stick. the first time we saw him, he nearly fell. he tripped up walking down the sidewalk. the next time we saw him, sunglasses and the walking stick. his aides have told me that he can barely see out of one eye and then he's practically completely blind in the other. and of course the image being similar to the image dennis
hastert a few weeks ago, if you recall. dennis hastert facing charges in a wheelchair. so you've got to wonder -- i wonder sgl wonder. >> well, as an attorney for many years, a lot of my clients take ill. it is a very stressful situation. does that play positively on the jury? a lot of them get sick, say they can't go through a trial. they're in wheelchairs. >> what, karen, in your view is cosby's biggest challenge right now? >> himself and his admissions. he made some very serious admissions, both in his deposition and also to the victim's mother in this case. so a jury hearing all of this. now, of course one of the elements that we've been talking about, is all of that past testimony going to be allowed. the answer to that is probably not. she is the only -- this victim is one of the only few victims who actually went and filed a criminal complaint. so sort of doing that, that testimony is not going to come in. but even without that it's very compelling.
the problem is, is that there's no forensic evidence and she came forward a few months after it happened, so that's going to be problematic. but the admissions are devastating in this case, jose. >> craig melvin and karen de soto, thank you very much for being with me this morning. appreciate your time. ahead we're going to turn to politics and the race for the white house. presumptive republican nominee donald trump wrapping up his attacks. not that they're against bernie sanders or hillary clinton. >> i was very nervous. no woman should be subjected to it. it was an assault. >> will going after former president bill clinton help trump pull ahead in the polls? we're talking about that next here on "msnbc live." ♪ you should hire stacy drew. ♪ ♪ she wants to change the world with you. ♪ ♪ she can program jet engines to talk and such. ♪ ♪ her biggest weakness is she cares too much. ♪ thank you. my friend really wants a job at ge. mine too. ♪ i'm a wise elf from a far off shire. ♪ and sanjay patel is who you should hire. ♪
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in the mud. donald trump going on a tear hitting hard at the clinton not on the ballot, former president bill clinton. the presumptive gop nominee resurfacing decades-old allegations of a murder conspiracy and sexual misconduct. trump posted an instagram video showing clinton smoking a cigar while you hear voices of women who have accused him of sexual misconduct, including monica lewinsky. >> i'm only responding to what they do. they have been nasty. she's been very nasty. i said i'd like it to be on policy. i don't like doing that but i have no choice when she hits me on things, i just have no choice so you have to do it. it's unfair. >> well, our political team is here this morning also with an exclusive interview with bernie sanders. first nbc national correspondent peter alexander in washington. peter, what has prompted trump to bring up these allegations? >> overnight donald trump called the clintons dirty players that when he's hit he has to fight back the way i fight back. those are his words.
frankly it's unclear what provoked this latest round of attacks. in effect as it relates to his likely opponent, hillary clinton, trump's team really wants to make this a referendum, this campaign a referendum on the clintons' past. in conversations with trump aides they very clear about this deliberate effort to overwhelm her campaign message with the decades of controversy that have surrounded the clintons as well. examples they say demonstrate that she is unfit for the presidency. bill clinton's sex scandals and her handling of them as an enabler as trump describes it. they're trying to capitalize on that to reflect on hillary clinton's character. that's what's behind that instagram video. simply put, they want to turn that part of clinton's unique appeal, her being a woman, into league a liability to show she didn't stand up for other women. trump's position on clinton's sex scandal has changed. in the late '90s he even expressed sympathy for clinton's plight. here was one unique exchange
between trump and chris malt tts in august of 1998. take a listen. >> did you ever have a flicker when you were taking a shower, walking to work where you said donald trump, you've won every battle you ever fought. why don't you run for governor, why don't you run for president. >> people wanting me to all the time. >> what about you? >> i don't like it. you think about him with the woman. how about me with the women. they might like my women better too. >> that exchange again from august, 1998, right back in the middle of the sex scandals that surrounded bill clinton. the most recent effort to relitigate the clintons past is questioning whether vince foster's death in 1993 was in fact murder, not suicide. that's a widely dismissed conspiracy theory. trump was asked about it by "the washington post" and he called those circumstances very fishy. >> this whole existence of video, man, it's going to be interesting. peter alexander in washington, thank you very much. let me bring in nbc's kristen
welker who was in los angeles this morning. kristen, good morning. what is the clinton campaign saying about how the former president's past is becoming part of the rival's message? >> hey, jose, good morning to you. well, the clinton campaign is continuing to insist they are not going to engage in these personal attacks with donald trump. they're not going to get down into the mud or the gutter with him, as they would put it. instead they're focused on policy. secretary clinton trying to draw sharp policy distinctions with him. we have seen that play out on the trail as she's talked about issues like immigration, fair pay, that wall that donald trump has proposed building, and of course his muslim ban. and then just today a new line of attack, jose. they are hitting him in a few ad for saying during the housing crisis that actually it could be a good thing, that he could benefit from the housing crisis. they're essentially trying to paint him as a billionaire businessman who doesn't value or
care about working class voters. what's interesting about this tactic, jose, it's very similar to the tactic that president obama took back in 2012 during his re-election campaign against mitt romney. remember, he tried to paint him as a gordon gecko figure. that worked. the question is will this strategy work this time around. i anticipate we'll hear a whole lot more about this from the clinton campaign. we're also told that her top surrogates are going to be out in top battleground states talking about donald trump's business background, his record, and of course these very controversial comments that he made about the housing crisis. >> hillary clinton doesn't have to worry just about trump, right? >> oh, that is right. she is in this two-pronged fight with senator sanders who is showing absolutely no signs of letting up or giving up. he is campaigning vigorously here in california. he would have to win this state by huge margins just to have a shot at the nomination. i did a one-on-one interview with him yesterday, jose, in
santa monica. i asked him about a whole host of issues, including that democratic debate that he had proposed, the clinton campaign saying they're not going to engage in it. i got his reaction. take a look. >> hillary clinton is not going to participate in the debate here in california. it seems as though this is yet another example of her already moving on to the general election. >> well, that's one way of looking at it. the other way of looking at it is that she is really insulting the people of the largest state in our country who have a right to hear a vigorous debate on her views versus my views and how it impacts california. and in fact the rest of the country. so i am disappointed, although not surprised. she had agreed to do this debate and now she has chosen not to do that and i think that's unfortunate. i happen to think the media in general does not do a great job in covering the most important issues facing our country. debates are one way we can do that. >> a lot of democrats are -- they want you to finish this fight and then they say if in
the end, if you don't win, what they'd like to see is something similar to what happened in 2008. they would like you to join forces with secretary clinton to campaign vigorously for her just as she did for barack obama back in 2008. would you pledge to democrats that you're going to campaign for secretary clinton? >> first of all, my focus right now is to win the democratic nomination. and i think one of the factors that we have favoring us is, as you may know, there was just an nbc poll the other day. i think yesterday. what the nbc poll said that hillary clinton was three points ahead of three points ahead of donald trump, we were 15 points ahead. that is consistent with other national polls and statewide polls as well. so right now the case we're going to make to the convention, to the superdelegates, many of whom came on board clinton's campaign before the first ballot was cast, that we are the strongest candidate to beat donald trump and that is something that has got to happen. >> an a.p. article came out
saying you're predicting a messy convention. what does messy means? >> messy means the media often takes words out of context. the context of that was that democracy is messy. that people will have vic russ debate on the issues. >> will the convention be messy? >> of course it will be. that's what democracy is about. if you use the word "messy" it means people will be engaged in vigorous debate. we don't have that that often in the united states. but i think that's what a convention is about. >> now, as for that debate, the clinton campaign saying today that they want secretary clinton to focus on campaigning here in california and also on the general election. it's another indication that she has pivoted largely to the general election, but you can expect both candidates to be barnstorming this state ahead of the june 7th primary. in fact senator sanders told me last night that he plans to get as many as 200,000 people out to rally before the folks weigh in
here in california. jose. >> kirstristen welker in los angeles, thank you very much. terry mcauliffe is under a federal investigation regarding campaign donations. the governor spoke just moments ago addressing questions about this fbi probe. >> there's no allegations of wrongdoing. they're entitled to do an investigation. it relates to this valid donor who had been a green card holder since 2007 and we fully vetted him. >> were you aware of these allegations prior to the report yesterday? >> no. >> msnbc's kasie hunt joins me with more on this breaking story. what else did the governor say? >> jose, good morning. that was terry mcauliffe just earlier this morning talking for the first time about an investigation that he didn't even know was happening. and of course that investigation looking into donors to his 2013
gubernatorial campaign. one in particular that's been identified, a chinese politician and businessman, but who does have u.s. permanent resident status, which would make him eligible to be able to give campaign donations. but some of these questions, jose, a little bit more broadly involve terry mcauliffe's connections to the clinton family, and particularly the clinton global initiative and foundation that terry mcauliffe has been somewhat involved with. he was a board member there. and there's some overlap between some of the people who have donated to cgi and people who donated to his campaign. justice officials have told our pete williams that's the area in which this investigation is focused on. they also say this has nothing to do with hillary clinton's separate investigation of her e-mails. of course mcauliffe has been very close to the clintons for many, many years playing a number of official roles in the clintons -- hillary clinton's campaigns, at the democratic national committee during the clinton years, et cetera. so of course at this point
hillary clinton's campaign has not had any comment on this investigation into terry mcauliffe. one of their spokes people was asked about it yesterday and said they have yet to see the report but so far this morning no additional response, jose. >> so here's the question, casey. if this gentleman, apparently born in china but a u.s. legal resident, if he has under that fact that he's a resident able to donate to campaigns, why is he being investigated for this guy, who is a u.s. resident? >> the question just seems to be about the connections between how these donors came to be and whether or not there is a connection that's inappropriate in how they started out as cgi donors, ultimately became donors to terry mcauliffe's campaign. so we're still looking into additional details of this investigation and obviously they're coming out one at a time but we certainly will bring you the latest if we find out any more information. >> kasie hunt, thank you very much. ahead, a race against time
as a search for egyptair flight 804's black boxes continues in the mediterranean. this as new reports emerge suggesting forensic evidence points to an explosion onboard the plane. we'll have the very latest on the investigation from cairo right after a short break on "msnbc live." i like the bride more than the groom. turquois dresses... so excited. did all her exes get invited? no one's got moves like uncle joe. ♪ should i stay or should i go? ♪ when it's go, book with choice hotels and get a free $50 gift card for staying just two times. book direct at choicehotels.com. you always have a choice.
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today egyptian investigators are meeting with family members of the victims who died onboard egyptair flight 804 as they begin to take steps in identifying the remains of their loved ones. ayman mohyeldin is in cairo with more details on this tragedy. ayman, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, jose. yeah, this was a report that came out today from the associated press citing one unnamed egypt an official saying that initial forensics examination or analysis conducted on some of the body parts that were brought to cairo concluded that this was a result of the explosion that was onboard. now, it's important to emphasize nbc news has not independently
verified this. the egyptian medical department put out a firmly worded statement denying this saying this is baseless and went further warning that people and media in specific should not report this out of the interests of national security and threatening the state's interests, so to speak. but they are saying this report is absolutely false. but more importantly, the aviation minister yesterday told my colleague, bill neely, here, that in fact all of the dna that has been submitted and gathered and the body parts that were gathered, it was still way too early to determine any kind of conclusi conclusive result as to what that i have caused this, which is the question on everyone's mind. the investigative committee that is leading this charge said they had begun analyzing information with regards to the plane, the maintenance records of the plane. they're even going so far back into looking at the training records of both the pilots, the flight crews and all relevant information that they have requested from the french and greek government.
so again today not a lot of hope in terms of trying to find any more specific information as to what brought the plane down. on the family side, we learned today that some dna testing has begun in cairo today to try and identify some of those body parts that have been gathered. about 18 packages worth of wreckage have been brought back to cairo and are now being analyzed at that forensics lab. >> it seems with every day that passes, it seems that there is less and less focus on what it actually could have been that brought this plane down. >> reporter: the government here is being very tight-lipped about it. they're constantly ushrging the media and everyone to consider all scenarios. that's what we've heard in every single statement that comes out. whether it is the forensics or investigative committee or even the presidential office, the emphasis is being to hold back, to wait and see what the information is. but we were talking about some
of the information that has come out from europe, including that acars report and even the audio streaming that was picked up by an independent website that controls air traffic control communication, all of that stuff is coming out outside of egypt and that adds a little to the frustration here, certainly for those that are asking the government to comment on them. they are very tight-lipped about it. sometimes it is a day or two when they comment on it and when they do, as in the case of today, they are denying some of those reports as being baseless and inaccurate. >> ayman mohyeldin in cairo, thank you very much. we are staying on top of breaking news. right now comedian bill cosby is inside a philadelphia area courtroom. he is in a preliminary hearing that will decide if there is enough evidence for his criminal case to go to trial. he is accused of drugging and molesting a woman in 2004. he said the conduct was consensual. chief legal correspondent ari melber is watching this hearing very closely. ari, we have to wait for a break for an update on what's
happening inside but lay out what the prosecution is trying to prove here. >> big picture, there has been a lot of talk about bill cosby's alleged sexual misconduct, alleged sex crimes. what's happening today is significant. the video you're looking at on your screen, this is the first time bill cosby has gone to court to face actual evidence in a criminal trial. these are live pictures. we're looking at people streaming out of this courtroom. we don't have any information yet because under court order with the threat of contempt or jail time, we are not allowed to say anything until the recess. i see gloria allred walking out of court among others. she represents many of the accusers. as we look at these live pictures, and any minute we may get our first reports of what happened inside the court, what is significant and new today is the criminal evidence being put forward for the first time. everything else has ooifeither procedural or these civil suits while important to the accusers are not criminal proceedings
where the government holds anyone accountable for an alleged crime. the prosecution would be walking through why they say they have a case today, the kind of evidence, testimony, past statements and why they say they should go to trial. >> ari, talk to me about the fact that this was dealt with in 2004, that there was a resolution to this legal low and yet it's back in now. >> great point. there have been a lot of different accusations. this stems from andrea constand who says that in 2004 she had two incidences where she had unwanted sexual contact by bill cosby pursuant to a drugging of her, and that is what the probable cause affidavit and the materials put forward so far say. now, there was a civil suit about this. that's on the civil side, that's like anyone can sue anyone personally. they resolved that and the suits as they usually are were resolved confidentially. so while we know there have been depositions and other things that have come out of that civil process, that was on this side, right? that is saying, okay, they settled that.
what we see now is a criminal prosecution that is about the same incident but this is the first time the government has gone forward with it. one other point about how these all interrelate because people at home are trying to keep track. they think we've heard a lot about different allegations, it is precisely the civil suits that forced bill cosby into depositions under oath to discuss these kind of accusations. that, according to this prosecutor, paved the way for what is a much later than normal prosecution. indeed it came in right before the statute of limitations over a decade later and that is because in one of those civil depositions as people may remember, bill cosby did admit to obtaining drugs and obtaining them in the context of what he described as potentially use on women. and so that was not -- i want to be clear, not an admission of guilt in this current case where he has maintained his innocence through lawyer statements, but did provide, right, the kind of evidence that this prosecutor said showed there was a pattern and practice of obtaining these
drugs, quaaludes among others. so as we watch the live pictures of what it looks like the first recess of this morning's proceedings, all of that is what built to the point that we got this now first criminal charge. >> we are expecting to see mr. cosby himself momentarily. talk to me about the repercussions that this procedure today, this process starts today could have on the other cases. you're talking about, for example, in the other cases there's a lot of information, but not in this case. so what precedent does this set for the future? >> well, you know, it's not my style to be too dogmatic, jose, but i would say from what we know, this is the only game in time for a criminal prosecution. and that is because many of these other accusations have been explored, they have been reported on, they have been combed over and most are too old to be pursued in the places where they allegedly occurred.
on the bill cosby side, his lawyers have said that's all a disservice to him. they emphasize when we talk to them and quote them, he's never been convicted of criminal wrongdoing or before today than even been through a proceeding charged with it. they say old and unaddressed. this is the place, pennsylvania, where the allegations are recent enough, so this is the place we look at the earlier footage of bill cosby when he was arriving today, this is the place where there could be a criminal charge. >> so the fact that the statute of limitations is over on most of the other cases, if not all, precludes that from going to court in a criminal sense? >> that's correct. and that is basically, i think, the key here is you basically say barring something else that we don't know yet, which is always the caveat we use, this is the only place where the clock was still ticking for a criminal charge. >> all right. so what happens then if this case goes forward, because we were talking to karen de soto earlier this morning right on this hour and she was saying the probability is that this case
could go forward, maybe with a lesser charge, but something will go forward. what does this mean for mr. cosby? >> instead of answering that question, i have breaking news. i'm going to go ahead and read from tom winter, our nbc reporter who was in the courtroom this morning. we've been waiting for the first recess to get this report. he reports that miss constand, the accuser here, read from a statement here. i'm going to quote a little bit from what we know was offered as evidence in this morning's proceeding. she says mr. cosby invited me up to the house wearing comfortable clothing. she says he entered a room wearing sweat pants. we had nothing to eat, we were just conversing, talking about changes in my life. he told me to relax. but then ultimately she said, quote, he came down and he had pills in his hands and urged me to take them. i'm quoting from andrea constand in this hearing that just let out. he told me to take wine. i told him i hadn't eaten all day. he told me to just take the wine. and then we're learning just
moments ago in this proceeding, she describes in her statement that she had blurred vision. she says mr. cosby told her to lay down, that she was scared. she says, quote, everything was blurry and dizzy. she was lying down. she says that was the last thing she remembered for a period of time. she had, quote, no sense of time and then she described in some detail, i'm not going to read this part explicitly, but she describes what she alleges was unwanted physical sexual contact. again, this now being the first time we've seen that in a criminal proceeding just moments ago. >> ari, take me through this legally. if mr. cosby and his team said everything was consensual and in this deposition or in this statement she says that she was handed these pills and then took them with some wine. legally, is there anything there that the team could say, well, that is consensual? >> i think that will be a big part of the debate here.
the types of charges he's facing include both a lack of consenting and explicitly drugging someone, which under pennsylvania law as in most states means that you can't exercise meaningful consent. we can see a preview of the cosby strategy in these proceedings because they are trying to question her approach, her, shall i say, depiction of what happened. as you mentioned, whether this might have been a different type of interaction. i can tell you previously cosby's lawyers have basically called into question the idea that he drugged her at all and the counter story was these were aspirin or over-the-counter pain medication. i will read to you again what we're just getting in from the hearing, that the cross examining lawyer, that would be cosby's lawyer, did go in and ask certain questions about what she said transpired. asked about other incidents where they had dinner together.
mentioned -- got her to admit that she brought certain clothing and incense. these are the kind of things that we would expect in a full trial will be litigated and debated in more detail. they had a friendship, they both agree on that. they had consensual platonic nonphysical encounters repeatedly. was the allegedly physical encounter consensual or not. that's something bill cosby's lawyers may try to bring into doubt. >> thank you very much. ahead, bernie sanders showing no signs he plans to drop out of the race for the democratic nomination any time soon. now he's issuing a warning of a, quote, messy democratic convention. >> will the convention be messy? >> of course it will be. but everything -- that's what democracy is about. >> but how could a messy convention impact a democrat's chances for a win in november? we'll talk about that after a short break.
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democracy is messy. people will have vigorous debate on the issues. >> will the convention be messy? >> of course it will we. that's what democracy is about. >> how can you argue that this primary battle is not in in ways hurting her in a general election and hurting her numbers? >> first of all, first of all -- well, i guess if we take your assumption and clinton supporters assumption that the logical conclusion, you know what we should do? we should go back to a monarchy and not have any elections at all. >> that was bernie sanders making it clear to our own kristen welker that he plans to fight all the way to the democratic national convention which is set to become exactly two months from tomorrow. joining me, nbc political analyst, ed rendell. governor, good to see you. also the chairman of the dnc during the elections in 2000. how are you? >> good. i'm also the chairman of the host committee, so it's great to hear all that stuff. >> it's just a long list of
things. absolutely. governor, sanders says it's going to be messy. does that mean open for debate? does that mean it's just some issues that we're not agreeing with and will take it to the end? what does that mean, messy? >> well, that's the key question, jose. how would you define messy? first of all, let's be clear, bernie sanders has every right to stay until the last primary. hillary clinton did it in 2008. bernie sanders has every right to have his name placed in nomination. that's been the case in most conventions. in some ways his delegates want to cast their vote for bernie sanders. i remember in 2008 i was governor and hillary clinton carried pennsylvania and we wanted to vote for hillary clinton. she came on the stage after new york had voted and moved that it bow made unanimous by acclimation and we didn't get our chance to cast our votes for her and were disappointed. so contesting in that way is appropriate. bernie sanders should have a
demonstration as his name is placed in nomination. that should be raucous and upbeat. i'm going to stand on my feet and applaud for bernie sanders even though i'm a clinton delegate because i think he's done a wonderful job for american democracy. all those things are pluses. if there's a platform debate and some of the platform planks are taken to the floor for debate and vote, that could be contentious but not necessarily messy. the only thing i would construe as messy is if someone, whether it's sanders delegates, clinton delegates, whoever, if someone tries to disrupt the convention and drown out the speakers. i think everybody should be respectful of the speakers on both sides of these issues. let them talk, let them communicate. if there are fights on the floor, it wouldn't be the first time. in 1980 the kennedy and carter folks, we had battles over the platform. wouldn't be the first time. >> now, earlier this month you said that sanders supporters should, quote, behave and not
cause trouble at the convention. he ndrew nearly 7,000 people to his rally last night. why not just let this play out? >> of course, i think it should play out. i absolutely think he should go to the end of the primary process. but one thing the sanders supporters should understand, they think the process is rigged. they don't like the superdelegates. well, if there were no superdelegates, jose, hillary clinton would win the nomination because she has a substantial lead. she'll win a majority of the elected delegates. >> would you support that being the definition of winning, not by superdelegates that already have their mind made up before the first vote is cast? would you support that to be the definition of someone who gets the nomination, who just gets the delegates, not the superdelegates necessarily? >> if we went -- going forward if there was a vote and we can only recommend the convention to the dnc, the regular dnc meeting
that takes place twice, three times a year. if we recommended that there was a platform plank recommending we get rid of superdelegates and make it solely on the basis of elected delegates, i would vote for it. >> ed rendell, it's always a pleasure to see you. thanks for being with me this morning. right now comedian bill cosby inside a philadelphia area courtroom. more on today's preliminary hearing to decide whether there's enough evidence for his criminal case to go to trial when we come back. it takes a lot of work... to run this business. but i really love it.
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for more on the bill cosby hearing, we go right outside the courtroom. that's where janet shamlian is. janet, tell us what the very latest is right there. >> reporter: well, the procedure started about 9:30 this morning and immediately bill cosby's attorneys argued against the admittance of what's called hearsay evidence. that is in the absence of the accuser, andrea constand, that statements from her previous deposition would be allowed to
be read perhaps by a detective in court. cosby's attorneys saying that this deprived him of due process of being able to question this accuser, why she had waited up to a year to make these complaints, and just to be able to respond to some -- to whatever she said. now, hearsay has been admitted on previous occasions in these preliminary hearings, so the judge allowed it. and they went ahead and read a detective's statement from about ten years ago, 12 years ago actually, 2004. this is a woman who took the initial complaint from the woman, andrea constand, who filed these charges against bim cause bill cosby. they went through what andrea had said they time to the police detective and at that point that is where we are in this procedure. they did take a short break and they are back at it again now. >> i want to bring in defense attorney, former prosecutor, karen de soto.
karen, you've been reading the notes from the courtroom. what do you think? >> well, jose, like i said, when i would do these preliminary hearings, the best part of them from the defense standpoint is that you get the information, you get to see the victim, you get to question them, you get to cross examine them. so it's no surprise that they're going to try to read in the hearsay evidence in this case. but from a defense standpoint this is devastating and something i would argue until, you know, they threaten me to sit down because, again, this is our only opportunity as a defense attorney to get the information. unlike the civil case, you do not get an opportunity to do depositions, so this is it. your preliminary hearing is the only time that you get to see how the victim presents, cross examine them and extract information. >> and boy ty the information t we've been given and been looking through, is there anything that strikes out at you? >> well, this is the information already disclosed to the public through the indictment process and the charges being filed, so
no. this is her statement. the only other statement or live witness that i would want to see is her mother, because, again, this is a preliminary hearing. this is different from a regular hearing. you need to meet all of the elements under the statute, and this is aggravated indecent sexual assault. so at the very least, a defense attorney would try very hard to knock it down to a lesser included charge. if possible that's what you do as a defense attorney in pennsylvania in these circumstances. so all of the evidence that's here as a defense attorney i already have already. >> karen de soto, thank you very much. appreciate your time. and that wraps up this hour of "msnbc live." thank you for the privilege of your time. tamron hall picks up our coverage next. ♪
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try new alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. they work fast and don't taste chalky. try new alka-seltzer hearmmmm. incredible.ies. looks tasty. yodon't have heartburn. new alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. enjoy the relief. good morning, everyone. i'm tamron hall coming to you live from our msnbc headquarters in new york. we have some breaking news to report to you out of pennsylvania. that is where a judge is right now deciding whether bill cosby
will face trial in the criminal sex assault case he was first charged with back in december. outside the court house today, a crowd of spectators and supporters gathered, some even applauding as the 78-year-old comedian entered the building surrounded by assistants and bodyguards. his wife, camille, was not seen with him. this was the first and only criminal case against cosby who faces dozens of accusations and allegations of sexual assault or misconduct, all of which cosby has denied. the charge in this case surrounds this woman, andrea constand. new just moments ago we learned a statement from constand was read inside court accusing bill cosby of sexual assault. he is accused of drugging and molesting the former templ university employee at his home back in 2004. in a civil suit related to the same allegation, cosby said in a deposition the encounter was