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show which i'm going to be recording later today, donald trump has agreed to debate me, and i look forward to that. >> i would love to debate bernie. he's a dream. well, i said, i said last night on jimmy's show, it was a question that was posed. i said i want to debate him but i want a lot of money to be put up for charity. what i will do, if we can raise for maybe women's health issues. >> you saw the show last night. you saw what i did for you. >> you made it possible for us to have a very interesting debate. >> that's right. >> about two guys who look at the world very, very differently. >> i would love to debate bernie. but they have to pay a lot of money for it because look, i'm in first place. i've won i might say something over $10 million. >> apparently the price was wrong. good morning. welcome to "a.m. joy." yesterday donald trump settled the question of will they or won't they after a week-long tease of a potential debate with
bernie sanders. on friday afternoon, trump threw cold water on the whole thing with a statement that read now that i'm the presumptive nominee it seems inappropriate i would debate the second place finisher. the networks like to make a killing on these events and are not proving to be too generous to charitable causes. in this case, women's health issues. therefore, as much as i want to debate bernie sanders and it would be an easy payday, i will wait to debate the first place finisher in the democratic party, probably crooked hillary clinton or whoever it may be, unquote. trump's reversal sparked these delightful chicken trump memes. what is the fact of the debate between the presumptive republican nominee and the guy who's in second place for the democrats and highly unlikely to actually become the nominee say about the state of the democrat this election season? joining me, "new york times" national reporter yamish, jamal simmons and in philadelphia, senior editor for the atlantic, david frum.
thank you for joining. you have been following the sanders campaign very closely. this is bernie sanders reacting to trump finally deciding that he will not debate him. take a listen. >> i heard that he was going to debate me, then i heard that he was not going to debate me, then i heard that he was going to debate me. now you're telling me that he is not going to debate me. well, i hope that he changes his mind again. mr. trump is known to change his mind many times in a day. >> do the sanders campaign actually believe that donald trump was agreeing to a real debate, were they gearing up for something real or was this just publicity on both sides? >> they were really gearing up for something real. this shows that bernie sanders is really desperate to try to get as much media attention as he can ahead of this california june 7 primary. you see bernie sanders kind of saying what are you afraid of, trying to get under his skin, trying to really force trump to say something and trying to really kind of get trump to say yes, finally, okay, fine, if you
really want to challenge me, i will do this. really, this is about bernie sanders really being upset at the fact that he's second place in this race and he's really upset about the fact that he doesn't have the number of pledged delegates that he really wished he would have. i think this is really just a desperate ploy on the part of the sanders campaign to really try to get as much attention as possible. >> is this because they don't have as much cash in the bank to buy ads so they are trying to do things like get a debate going because it gets them on tv and since hillary clinton won't do it, you are basically saying they want to substitute a debate with donald trump for being able to, say, buy ads? >> in california it's really, really, really expensive to buy television advertising, upwards of $10 million to actually kind of make a dent in that state. they have only invested about $1.5 million. they are only on in los angeles and sacramento and i think in another city. so they are only on in three cities which is a drop in the bucket. this idea they are trying to generate free media is their way to say since we can't afford to
be on california in a paid media way, we will try to get as much attention in this way and of course, it's pretty fair to say that donald trump has -- is kind of someone who can get a lot of media attention so being able to get onstage with him would definitely have people talking about bernie sanders for a couple days. if he can do that before june 7, the polls are showing that california's in a tight race, he could maybe kind of somehow get over on hillary clinton. i think it's fair to tell your viewers that even if he won california, it would still be very hard for him to win the nomination or beat hillary clinton who is only 80 or 90 delegates away, including super delegates she already has. >> that is i think the point that you have seen increasingly. i will go to you on this, jamal. the question of what is the sanders campaign's point at this point? what are they trying to do? because i'm not clear on what a debate between bernie sanders and donald trump would do other than marginalize, quite frankly, hillary clinton as her two
opponents essentially both beat her up for an hour in a debate. what do you see as the point at this point of what the bernie sanders campaign wants? >> i think what was just said about getting attention is absolutely in the right zone. as a friend of mine said yesterday, who wouldn't want to see the bernie sanders versus donald trump fight? it's like mixed martial arts, boxing versus wrestling. i think everybody would probably tune in. they were right about that. but it would have the impact of i think continuing to trivialize this presidential contest. i think that is the problem for both trump and sanders. for hillary clinton, she is trying to argue she's the one who is presidential, she's got the stature, all that. it would have left her out of it for a minute but depending how it went, it might have actually been to her benefit to prove she was not actually in the circus. >> that's an interesting take. you also at the same time have the sanders campaign now formally filing a letter
objecting to two of the people who will be running committees at the democratic national convention, governor dan malloy and barney frank. the letter says both have been aggressive attack surrogates for the clinton campaign. their criticisms of senator sanders gone to idealogical disagreement, et cetera. you have that happening at the same time that fans of the bernie sanders campaign, supporters of theirs, are filing an injunction against the secretary of state in california to try to get more time for non-affiliated voters to be able to register for the campaign. this just seems to be all-out war between the democrats at this point. am i reading that right? >> listen, i think there's a real concern starting to develop among people in the party and frankly, even fairly liberal democrats who are really sympathetic to bernie sanders that he is maybe going a little too far. when you endorse the challenger to the sitting chair of the democratic party in a primary,
that's something that people look at askew. if you go after barney frank, one of the most popular people in the democratic party when it comes to kind of the left wing of the party. when he was in congress, he was really leading, almost the champion of that kind of part of the party. remember in massachusetts, there were a lot of people who were on the liberal side who wanted governor patrick to appoint him to the senate seat when it was open. the sanders campaign may be going a little too far in their fight by taking on some folks that people in the party really like. >> david, i want to give you opportunity here. we have been talking throughout much of the last year about the civil war inside the republican party, trump versus never trump, people who can't accept him and people who can. what we are now seeing it appears is a similar civil war on the democratic side. >> let me put it this way. if you are republican, schadenfreude is the only freud you get. thank you for that. i don't understand why donald trump doesn't do this. from his own point of view, he
should. first, it extends, enhances and enlarges the mayhem inside the democratic party. that's good for him. in the second place, the longer he keeps bernie sanders in the race, the farther and deeper and more permanently he pushes hillary clinton to the left. the thing he has to be most terrified of is that hillary clinton seals up this nomination, picks bob ruben as her running mate or somebody like that, then says to every suburban republican in the country you may not like me but i'm a force for stability and by the way i believe u.s. treasury bonds should be paid in full and on time, unlike the republican challenger wants to create mayhem in financial markets and pull away the whole center ground of american politics. the longer and deeper bernie sanders is in this race, the harpder it is for hillary clinton to do that. the final thing, one of the most profound reasons why donald trump should do this from his point of view is that what we are seeing is the big theme of this year has been partisan divides matter less in america today than they used to do.
idealogical divides matter almost nothing. what really matters are fault lines of race and sex. that is what has split apart the republican party and that is what is driving the democratic race, with men and whites gravitating to sanders and women and non-whites gravitating to hillary clinton. the harsher and more sharply that donald trump can tap with bernie sanders' assistance on the fault line within the party, the more opportunity for donald trump to pull away disaffected while male and democrats to him in the general election. >> i want to come back to you, jamal. the question i always have, is the threat of bernie sanders as david puts it that he keeps pulling hillary clinton to the left and won't let her get to the center or is it the opposite? there was an interesting piece essentially saying the sanders insurgency has been helpful to democrats because it prevented forces on the left from leaving the democratic party, that he's had a larger platform from which to criticize hillary but has given left wing and socialist politics a larger home in the
party by running as a democrat, he prevented a left wing third party from using the same case and grievances against hillary clinton to make a more -- to create more access and support a ralph nader-like candidacy. is the risk more that hillary clinton stays to the left or that she loses the left? >> yeah. i disagree with my friend david frum on this one. it's all about how you understand the electorate today and i think that's not the electorate of the 1990s or the early 2000s. there isn't this great swath of swing voters sitting in the middle waiting to be wooed. hillary clinton's best hope to win this campaign is to find a way to solidify the bernie sanders forces, bring them into her campaign. there are not enough republicans who are willing to vote for hillary clinton in november to make up for the bernie sanders voters who may be upset. she's got to find a way to bring those voters in. my argument is, elizabeth warren will help her do that. not a bob ruben type or moderate senator from some state. she really needs somebody that
the left feels an investment in so they will come on board her campaign and help her win in november. >> you are doing the reporting on the bernie sanders campaign. do you get the sense in following sanders and his supporters that they feel they have more in common with hillary clinton or with donald trump? on trade he's like trump. they agree on high tariffs. they both agree on not cutting social security. does the sanders sort of base have more in common with trump or hillary? >> the base still has a lot more in common with hillary clinton than they will ever have in common with donald trump. the numbers show the vast majority of sanders' supporters would back hillary clinton. the issue i'm having and the issue people are starting to see is that in january, when i started covering bernie sanders and i would ask people will you vote for hillary clinton, they would say of course, she's part of our party, if bernie doesn't do it, i will do that. my story this week was about the fact that people are now visibly angry at hillary clinton, those bernie or bust signs are way more frequent.
people are calling her a corporate puppet. when he mentions hillary clinton people are booing in the crowds. i wrote a whole story about how people are hoping the fbi investigation takes her down. people are really starting to get angry. i think that while it's sometimes hard for the polls to catch up with that, as someone who has been on the ground and been to hundreds of rallies, i would say people are starting to get really angry at hillary clinton. i don't think they are making some mad dash for donald trump but there's a possibility that bernie sanders, because he's independent before this, people don't see that loyalty to the democratic party and that bernie sanders, if he's out of the race, his supporters might have to say we are now democrats and we are going to now join this party that was never really quite bernie sanders' party to begin with. >> last question, i will give you the last word on this, david. isn't the greater risk for democrats sort of a tea party of the left? that essentially it's the left of the vote that is in danger of exiting much more than there's any chance tha a significant number of republicans would vote for hillary clinton? >> i think we may need to retire the terms right and left. i agree with jamal, this is not the electorate of the 1990s but
neither is the trench warfare of 2000 to 2014. donald trump has shattered the republican map. he is a radical. there are a lot of people, republicans who are conservatives in the sense of i think bonds should be paid on time. we shouldn't blow up nato. donald trump scares me. those that he is actually putting the whole game into a very -- this is a new chapter. this is not the obama years. this is a new chapter. yeah, the tea party of the left is a danger but the greatest danger from a tea party of the left is it does to the democrats what the tea party of the right did to the republicans, pull us away from the middle ground of american politics and from the great mass of americans who have more to lose than to gain. remember, more voters have something to lose than to gain. donald trump and bernie sanders, both appeal to those who have more to gain than to lose. >> very interesting discussion. wish it could go on longer but we are out of time. thank you very much, david. great to talk to you. up next, as prominent republicans fall in line behind
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my sense is i'm going to go to the convention and i don't know if i'll have a role in the convention but i have a lot of people going there that were supporters. >> if donald trump asked you to speak on his behalf, you would do so? >> yeah. i want to be helpful. i don't want to be harmful because i don't want hillary clinton to be president. there's something i can do to help that from happening and is helpful to the cause, i would most certainly be honored to be considered for that. >> florida senator marco rubio has changed his mind. the man who was once one of
donald trump's rivals and fiercist critics and referred to trump as dangerous says he's now ready to unite the republican party around the presumptive gop nominee. apparently he would be honored to pitch in. rubio also says he would release his delegates to vote for donald trump at the von convention. the news came at an awkward time, being the same week trump gave one of his trademark speeches in anaheim, california. >> build that wall. build that wall. build that wall. build that wall. build that wall. build that wall. build that wall. build that wall. >> when trump also appeared in new mexico, where protesters interrupted his rally. >> oh, isn't that nice? get him out of here. get him out. bring him home to mom.
go home to mommy. go home to mommy. >> when he had this to say about new mexico's republican governor, susana martinez who also happens to be one of the most prominent hispanic women in american politics, particularly in the republican party. >> we have to get your governor to get going. she's got to do a better job, okay? your governor has got to do a better job. she's not doing the job. >> joining me now is adrian carascillo of buzzfeed. alphonso, i want to play more of what marco rubio had said about donald trump before the time when he is now endorsing him. >> i believe donald trump as our nominee is going to shatter and fracture the republican party and the conservative movement. he's so erratic. to think you are going to make someone like that commander in
chief. >> this is a frightening, grotesque and disturbing development in american politics. >> what we are dealing with here, my friends, is a con artist. >> the problem is leadership has never been about taking people's anger and using it to get them to vote for you. if it is, it's a dangerous style of leadership. >> have you seen his hands? they're like this. >> erratic, grotesque, disturbing, a con artist, dangerous. these are the things marco rubio has said. your group is called the latino partnership for conservative principles. can marco rubio claim to have consistent principles and go from the things you just heard to saying he would be honored to help donald trump become president? >> well, you know, politics is a messy process, especially this time around where it's almost surreal what has happened. i think that in that interview with jake tapper from cnn, marco was very clear that this is a very complicated decision.
he said that -- he outlined during the primary all the disagreements, policy disagreements he has with donald trump, but yet there's one thing that unifies the immense majority of conservatives and republicans is that we don't want to see hillary clinton in the white house. now, as you know, i denounced trump very forcefully in public, said i wouldn't vote for him, i wouldn't campaign for him. i stand by that decision to this day. but to me, the alternative, hillary clinton, is at this point very toxic. i don't think latino voters are flocking to, as polls show, to hillary clinton. so it's just very complicated. but i will say that if mr. trump were to change his tone and perhaps open himself to some form of legalization that would open the door for some of us to be able to support him. look, you're going to find -- >> hold on a second.
what makes you think he would do that? he's running his campaign based on having his fans chant "build the wall." that's what gets them going at rallies. what makes you think he would ever change his mind about that? >> how many times has donald trump changed his mind during this primary? >> you think he would jettison the basis of his campaign to win a few more latino votes? >> no, but hillary is at 60% which is not obama levels. that's troubling. >> let me ask you a question. marco rubio made the same case you did, the reason he is for trump now, even though he said he was dangerous, is he says if you can live with a clinton presidency for four years, that's your right. i can't and i will do what i can to prevent it. if you believe somebody is dangerous, that it would be dangerous to allow them to have control of the fbi and the nuclear codes, would you say that it is worse to have somebody who is not in your party and who you oppose for partisan reasons than someone
dangerous? >> no, hillary clinton is dangerous. >> how is she dangerous? how is she dangerous? >> oh, well, the clintons. >> how is she dangerous? >> in terms of economic policy, it would perpetrate economic policies that would keep latinos in unacceptable levels of poverty with higher unemployment levels than the national average. she is dangerous for those of us who believe in the right to life. she wants no restrictions on federal funding -- >> so she's a standard democrat. you just described a standard issue democrat. on the other side, on the other side you have your guy, marco rubio, describe donald trump as erratic, as somebody who you can't trust with our national security. you are saying it's more dangerous to have a standard issue democrat than somebody you can't trust with our national security? are those two things even equivalent? >> well, yes. >> they are? >> i think she is definitely more dangerous. i know what hillary clinton will do to this country. >> what would she do that's more dangerous than somebody who is
so erratic they would use the fbi to go after their enemies, somebody foreign leaders have described as erratic and frightening? >> we just had an inspector general of the state department saying that the secretary of state had a rogue system -- >> she is dangerous because she had a private e-mail server? >> yes. >> okay. my mind is blown. adrian, you are out there reporting on what the latino community is thinking about when it comes to donald trump. is there a sense that hillary clinton and donald trump are somehow sort of equal opposites, that latino voters are choosing among a or b? >> remember in 2008, this is something people forget, hillary beat obama two to one among latino voters. this year in places like texas and florida, which have about a quarter of the latino population, she won about 70% of the vote in the democratic primary. that's not to say she doesn't have pockets of resistance, particularly what has happened with bernie being in the race, some of the younger hispanics and millenials, 50% of hispanics
are millenials and 25% of millenials are hispanics. that's key to remember. there is some overlap there. so that's been a pocket that bernie has had stronger support. but the hispanic community has known the clintons for a long time and really, alphonso knows this, because of the things trump has said, it's gone to a point where they don't like him, they really don't like him and you know, i have heard people tell me they hate him. stuff like that, out on the street. so that's really the problem for trump, where people were thinking he's going to make a pivot and i know a lot of people are saying if he makes that pivot, then maybe. but he's not making a pivot. he's talking about taco salads in tweets. he's sending a video to the hispanic evangelical, the largest hispanic evangelical group and is not even mentioning that they arechristian, or not even talking and that's an area where if he's going to have any chance, it's going to be among hispanic evangelicals that are opposed to clinton on social issues. >> you also have donald trump,
the latest of his twitter sort of broadsides calling the protesters that protest against him thugs who are flying the mexican flag, said the rally inside was big and beautiful but outside, criminals calling protesters criminals. as you said, the i love hispanics taco bowl tweet, attacking susana martinez, considered a rising star in the republican party. in your view, could donald trump clean that kind of thing up? all that is on record, public record, by simply make a pivot toward more conservative economic policy? >> it's tough to pivot. you talk about the growth and opportunity project in 2013 after the republicans lost in 2012 and they said if your first sentence is not more inclusionary, if you are not just being welcoming, if you are saying you want hispanics to leave, they won't listen to your second sentence. so that's really the problem for trump. people imagine some pivot but this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. if he's going to start talking about slightly pivoting here or he met with a hispanic pastor
and he indicated that the pastor believed that he believes immigration is more than the wall. but that message is not getting to hispanic media because trump does not do interviews with hispanic media. in spanish language media where they have been hearing for a year that he's basically the biggest latino villain since pete wilson, they are not hearing that message. what he's doing by attacking martinez and things like that is he's only reinforcing that. >> i will give you the final word on this, alphonso. which of the two candidates do you trust more to conduct america's foreign policy? hillary clinton or donald trump? >> well, you know, i believe that we can be the policemen of the world. i'm afraid that she may be very hawkish. i just don't know where hillary clinton stands on many issues when it comes to foreign trade. >> it sounds like you're saying donald trump. thank you very much. thank you both. still to come, a closer look at who bernie sanders is
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coming up, the dnc cut a deal that will give bernie sanders more input in the democratic party platform. who has he picked to bring to the table? >> justice is what love looks like in public. tenderness is what love feels like in private. brother sanders is not a crusade for justice but he's tender. he has a sweetness. (pilot talking to tower on radio) once you get out here... there's just one direction... forward. one time: now. and there's just one sound. you and us...
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democratic party that our ideas, our vision, is the future of america. >> that is bernie sanders saying he's the future of the country but in the democratic party, the democratic national committee has given a big concession to bernie at the philadelphia convention. bernie sanders will now get five seats on the committee that will draft the democratic platform. hillary clinton, because she's expected to be the winner, will get six. debbie wasserman schultz, the dnc chair, will get four. let's talk about who those people will be. on team clinton, team clinton has covered the areas of health, right, she's got one of her closest aides and allies, i should say, former president of the center for american progress, somebody who has been key to the issue of health care reform is on the list. wendy sherman, national security and wendy sherman is the former state department official under secretary for political affairs
at the state department and her specialty is in things like nuclear negotiation. we have also got labor represented on the hillary clinton committee. we have got paul booth, a very important labor union, he also gets on to the committee. you have representative gutierrez and the issue of immigration, very important to the democrats coming up in the fall. he's a big advocate of that. we have the issue of civil rights represented on hillary clinton's committee and this of course is alicia reese, a state representative in ohio. she is leader of the legislative black caucus. and carol browner, former director of the white house office of energy and climate change. my messy handwriting here. climate change represented on the hillary clinton committee. very interesting, too, hillary clinton, four women, four women out of her six people. let's go to our next contestant. we will look at team debbie wasserman schultz. she tapped three either current
or former members of congress. elijah cummings, who is a very popular member of congress. he has been doing battle with darrell issa on the house government oversight committee. he is somebody whose become the leading voice of democrats in the house minority. we have got here bonnie schafer, the only non-member of congress who is on the list. former ceo of clare's stores representing business on this list. barbara lee, of course, who is the leading voice of the anti-war democrats. she was the lone voice against the authorization to use military force after 9/11 but she also has a lot of other issues including civil rights. she sits on the house budget committee and is a member of the poverty caucus. very important there. lastly, howard berman, a former member of congress from california. he is somebody with a lot of foreign affairs national security experience. that is team debbie wasserman schultz. to team bernie. team bernie sanders, notable in the fact there's only one woman
on the list but he does have a couple other interesting people that he's added to the list. he's got two people representing the muslim community. of course, here we have james zogby, founder and president of the arab american institute. you have one woman on the list. let's go through these individually. so founder and president of arab american institute. the sanders campaign is making palestinian rights a big issue in the democratic platform so he's on the list. you also have congressman keith ellison, one of two muslim american members of congress and head of the house progressive caucus. he represents the most liberal democrats who are actually in the house. you also have author and environmentalist bill mckibbon. they talk climate change a lot in the sanders campaign.
this guy is a leading voice on the issue of climate change. deborah parker is the only woman on bernie sanders' list. her big issue, native american rights. she has been a big voice for native american rights. one thing that's notably not on the list, somebody whose specialty is wall street reform. we do not have that on the list. what we do have is this guy. activist, professor, cornel west. an extremely controversial figure, to say the least, because of the things he says about president barack obama. he's been a strong let's just say opponent of the president but his big issue has been poverty and social justice. let's take a listen to one of the things he's said about barack obama. >> we end up with a republican, rockefeller republican in black face with barack obama so that our struggle with regard to poverty intensifies.
>> that's a pretty rough assessment. >> that's what we have. >> let's talk with alicia reese, joining me on the phone, ohio state representative who is a member of the dnc platform drafting committee. how do you expect the working relationship to be between yourself and somebody like cornel west who has been such a strong opponent the president? >> well, first of all, thanks for having me. i think that i have been on several panels with dr. west. although i am state representative from ohio, the battleground state and the 33rd district, but my roots come from i'm also national board member of the national action network and grew up in rainbow push, so my roots are civil rights but i have been able to take those roots and also be elected where i actually went on the ballot and was elected as state representative president of the black caucus. one of the things that we have been able to do in ohio is take what's been said in the barber shops and beauty shops and take
them in and fight for various rights and as you know, i have got a movement going here in ohio, certainly plan to bring it to the platform committee on voting rights. we are the only state right now that has a constitutional amendment that we trying to get on the ballot to put voting rights in the constitution and have over 100,000 signatures. i think we would be able to work together in this platform drafting committee. >> does it say anything to you that of the people who supported bernie sanders, you have a big supporter who went out a limb to support senator sanders, nina turner, former state senator from ohio, did it surprise you that neither of them were the choice to be on the platform committee, that it was dr. west instead of one of the two of them? >> well, i can't really speak for the mind of bernie sanders. we interviewed both candidates, bernie sanders and hillary clinton, and i think the reason you just mentioned, some of those are not on his platform
drafting committee is probably the reason that our 13 african-american legislative black caucus members in our interview with hillary clinton that we endorsed hillary clinton and she handily won ohio, because we really think it's important that we be at the decision-making table. i think this platform drafting committee gives us a great opportunity for many years i was going door to door, getting people out to vote for democrats on platforms that i had no input on. and now to have an opportunity where hillary says that the president of the ohio legislative black caucus, the battleground state of ohio, we are going to be at the table, not only at the door saying this is the platform but also at the table shaping that platform, and i think that was one of the issues i had with bernie sanders in terms of us being at the decision-making table to help draft it. so we have moved beyond just the speech but we are actually in a powerful position. and hillary clinton in her campaign has african-americans
and women who are in the decision-making position. i think that's key as we talk about who's going to be our next president and will we have a seat at the table in the decision-making process and i think with this appointment it shows at least for our folks in ohio that hillary clinton certainly is not just talking but walking the walk. >> how important the end of the day is the platform? obviously it's a document drafted every time there's a democratic national convention or republican one. how much does it actually in your mind matter when it comes to a president making policy? >> well, i think it's important. i think it's important particularly now with donald trump, who's going to be the nominee for the republicans, people want to know where do we stand and what are our differences. so i think the platform piece will define us. that's why i'm calling for unity. we have to unify if we are going to beat donald trump. the republicans have unified and are having their convention in ohio. i can tell you being on the
ground in ohio, they are getting ready to go. so as democrats we can't spend all our time fighting each other, beating up each other and we don't make it to the championship fight which is winning the white house in november. i'm calling for unity and i know that i'm confident under our chairperson, elijah cummings, and our chairwoman at the dnc, debbie wasserman schultz, that we will walk out united but i think this is a clear message to us, let's not get knocked out in the preliminary and we don't win the championship fight which is in november. we must stop the republicans and i think the platform will help us as we go door to door define who we are and why it's so important. this election, our survival will be on the ballot. i think people need to wake up to that. our survival will be on this ballot in november. >> thank you very much, state representative reese. appreciate it. up next, the dnc chair hangs on for dear life. . i'm a police officer. paramedic. the value of nissan's...
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we have important challenges here that this election is about. i'm not going to get involved in conversations about personality. i told you that debbie wasserman schultz has the respect of her colleagues in the house for her hard work to unify and to win the elections. >> nancy pelosi might be one of the few democrat whose has debbie wasserman schultz's back at least publicly. more and more democrats on capitol hill have been discussing whether to push her out of the chairmanship ahead of july's convention as a way to mollify bernie sanders supporters. wasserman schultz is not granting tv interviews about the matter. we asked her to join us this week and she declined. but she did tell the "washington examiner" on wednesday she is not at all distracted by the criticism.
just in covering the sanders campaign, is anything short of debbie wasserman schultz's ouster going to calm the sanders forces ahead of the convention? >> i think that anything short of that is going to continue what we see now which is really a lot of dysfunction and anger coming out of the sanders campaign. he's already said publicly that if i'm the president, i will remove her and i think that anything short of her kind of leaving, it can continue -- they can continue to argue that she's biased, that she's kind of always been backing hillary clinton and that she's always been kind of very angry at this idea of an insurgent candidacy such as bernie sanders. it's interesting because when you look at how he's been fighting the party, it's really been about debbie wasserman schultz. he's been taking her on one-on-one. it's one thing to say the party is not treating me fairly and we should have more debates and i don't like the way the primaries are held. it's another thing to say that i'm going to remove you from your job if i am president. i think that that's a very
personal issue and that's kind of going into this area of really contentious, we didn't think was going to happen with the democratic party. it's really adding fuel. i think this is very personal. i don't foresee debbie wasserman schultz leaving office and they pick somebody new. i'm not sure nina turner or somebody. i don't think they will be able to do that. the sanders campaign is not really going to be satisfied unless she's gone. >> jamal, because there's also the question on the hillary clinton side of where does it end, if you give in on this, the next set of demands are that barney frank also removed as head of the platform committee and dan malloy be removed as head of the rules committee or i think it's vice versa. there are all these demands that do feel in a way like they are about settling personal scores. the anger at dan malloy is because he's criticized bernie sanders on guns and on that lawsuit the sandy hook families had. the issue with barney frank is
his personal criticisms of bernie sanders and you have this wasserman schultz thing. where would it end if they give him debbie? >> it seems like sanders is in the middle of throwing off these sort of hand grenades and lobbing them into the democratic party. your last segment, you talked about cornel west being on the policy committee? that is literally a rhetorically grenade that is set to go off at any moment. endorsing debbie wasserman schultz's primary opponent, same thing. i was with chair schultz this week. she was not that worried about this. here's a technical point. it's really hard technically to remove a democratic party chair and appoint a new one. there are 441 members of the de democratic party who have votes and they actually elect the party chair. the president can make a recommendation. so to go through removing a party chair, selecting a new party chair and to do all that in the next 60 days before the convention would in fact, what happens at the convention, the new nominee gets to place his or
her people into the committee and they end up making most of the decisions. i'm not sure it's a fight anybody's ready to have. >> at the same time, though, you have all these headlines that kim out this past week about democrats on capitol hill actually discussing whether it might be better to just go ahead and do it. she doesn't seem to have a lot of organic support, debbie wasserman schultz, and it does feel like there's so much criticism of the way she's conducted her job that maybe people might throw her over. do you get that sense? >> i get that sense that there are people who want to criticize her anonymously. most of the reporting i have seen has been people kind of giving quotes on background, not wanting to put their name in print because to me that tells me if you are really about criticizing debbie wasserman schultz you would be like jeff weaver or bernie sanders on national television saying we should remove her. the people who are saying that -- criticizing her are not ready to put their name out there. that's really important. the other thing i think is really important is the fact that when i think about kind of
how she's going to be changed and how it's going to happen, you don't really see how you will be able to remove her. that's also something that's really an issue. >> we are out of time. quickly. quickly. >> just keep in mind there are a lot of negotiations here, who the vp is, policy stuff, the chair. there's a lot of things for hillary clinton. >> you will come back in the next hour. coming up, we will travel back to the '90s to check what bill clinton and donald trump were up to. why some states hold a prime arkansas instead of a caucus. (engine winding up) (pilot talking to tower on radio) once you get out here... there's just one direction... forward. one time: now. and there's just one sound. you and us... together. telling the world... we're coming for you.
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>> donald trump in north dakota this week said the 1993 suicide of clinton white house lawyer vince foster should not be part of the campaign. of course, that was after trump himself brought it up and it's part of an apparent strategy to dredge up every clinton scandal and rumor from the 1990s. trump gave credence to a long-discredited conspiracy theory that the clintons murdered foster because he knew too much about the controversial whitewater real estate deal. trump told the "washington post" the theories are quote very serious and that the circumstances of foster's death were quote, very fishy . on thursday, foster's sister fired back writing in the "post" trump cynically crassly and recklessly insinuated that my brother may have been murdered. how wrong. how irresponsible. how cruel. trump was apparently also planning to attack hillary clinton for her alleged role in whitewater. his campaign accidentally sent an e-mail to politico asking an rnc researcher to work up information on the real estate deal as soon as possible.
bill clinton's past is not out of bounds to trump, either. his campaign released a video with the voice of the women who accused the former president of sexual misconduct. >> i was very nervous. >> no woman should be subjected to it. >> he starts to -- i tried to pull away from him. [ laughter ] >> that followed an appearance on fox news where trump took it to another level. >> in one case, it's about exposure and another case, it's about groping and touching against a woman's will. >> and rape. >> and rape. >> trump is referring there to the allegation made by an arkansas business woman that bill clinton sexually assaulted her in 1978. she made the allegation after she denied in an affidavit that any assault took place. clinton was never charged and denied the allegations when they were first made.
let's bring in eric bollert and nancy giles and jamal is back with me in washington. nancy, i will start with you on this. what trump is trying to do is to essentially talk to women and talk women out of supporting hillary clinton by using bill clinton circa the 1990s. is that a strategy that could work? >> i think it could because i think he thinks the democrats don't have the jojones to come back at him in the same way. if you look at him now and in the '90s, this guy's own record with women is let's just say dubious. although i have been thinking about it watching him and listening to how he talks about women, and i think he thinks everything is great. i think since he has a hot wife and hot ex-wives and is surrounded by hotness, that in some way, his valuing women by their appearance is like a cool, okay thing with him.
the fact that he might have been cheating on wives or whatever, that doesn't matter. but it's bizarre and a weird strategy, but unfortunately, because i think there is an association people make with the clintons women and just general uneasy feeling. >> kate macould it make people differently about hillary clinton because she didn't stand up with women who made these claims? >> i think it can work. when hillary clinton first ran for the senate, a lot of -- i lived in new york at the time, now live in jersey. i was a new york voter. i was amazed by how many other really smart, thoughtful women, democrats, said they wouldn't vote for her for the senate because quote, she should have left him. i was like what? what does that have to do with anything? it didn't make sense. we're weird. >> to you, jamal, just as a strategist, first of all, donald trump has terrible numbers with women, obviously. the obvious thing for hillary
clinton to do is to run very heavily on the idea of an aspiration of a woman in the white house. anything that undermines sort of the clinton brand with women, could it be an effective strategy from a strategic point of view? >> i would say buckle your seat belt, put on a parka. this is going to be the most mud-slinging campaign we have probably seen in 15 years, because both sides have a lot of ammo and will be hurling things at each other. what donald trump is doing very well strategically is he's playing offense. it looks like every night they must have a meeting and decide what they are going to throw at the other candidate the next day. they wake up in the morning, he puts out a tweet or whatever and they go at it for the rest of the day about whatever donald trump said. the clinton campaign has got to adjust to that. they have to figure out how they lob these grenades back at trump to get him off of his game. right now, they are playing -- the clinton campaign is playing too much defense, maybe because bernie sanders is still in the race. they have to get back on offense.
>> but there is a role for the media to play here. the media does come into force. we know the media has had a toxic relationship with the clintons for a very long time, if not from the very beginning of their public careers. let me play just a little vintage "hardball" from 1998. >> i really like this guy. i think clinton is probably too nice a guy in a certain respect. i really believe -- >> now let's play donald trump again talking with chris matthews in august 1998 specifically about ken starr, who investigated the sex life of bill clinton. >> and what can he say? then he goes and admits everything. then they come out and say he didn't admit enough. at some point, it has to stop and even starr, he's taken something from nothing and brought it in but it's got to stop. it's enough. >> what should we in media do with that dichotomy of trump
attacking the clintons on the basis of sex now and what he said back then? >> that would be a good starting point. haven't seen much of that in the last week talking about how not only did he say nice things about the clintons, he said ken starr is out of bounds, leave the clintons' sex life alone. trump now realizes that if he talks about bill clinton's sex life or scandals, the press loves it. >> why do you suppose that is? >> it's a whole other show, right? it's this dysfunctional relationship with the clintons. they resented him the day he came into office, what's this young guy doing in the office, we can be president if he's president. that type of thing. teak the party in a different direction. whole bunch of different reasons. he realizes that if he talks about it, he will get headlines, he will get coverage. the press has made clear they are absolutely agreeing that bill clinton's sex life from 20 years ago should be part of a t presidential campaign. the mistake he made was vince foster. he went too far and got real push-back from the press. which is interesting.
he didn't realize there were demarcation lines within the press. sex is fine, is he going to hurt his wife, what's hillary going to do. once trump started talking about the suicide, it seemed -- >> that's too far. >> yeah. it was ghastly and a lot of people in the press said we are not going to do that. we will do a lot of things, we won't be digging up dead bodies in a disgusting way. vince foster's sister wrote that piece. if you notice, the '90s stuff kind of evaporated. i think it's whatever roger stone e-mails donald trump in the middle of the night, he wakes up and that's their strategy only for 24 hours. >> the question is on the '90s stuff, there was obviously vince foster's sister came out and said it was a ghastly lie but there was a lot of investigation that took place by the media but there was also with the sexual allegations. what's the responsibility of the media? do we relitigate some of those cases or are they considered closed? >> i would like to think they
were considered closed but look, if you are going to relitigate them, find something new. that's the part about, i hate to use the term the media, but that's where i'm getting so annoyed. the "new york times" article, for instance, on trump revealed nothing except that when you looked at a lot of the charges that were flung sort of loosely at him, one could make similar charges with clinton almost, bill clinton, i'm talking about. but do some real digging, find out real things like how bad he is as a businessman or where trump university got its credentials. >> we will talk about that. you set us up nicely for the next block. i will give jamal one more crack at this. what should the hillary clinton campaign be doing differently and do they have to own up to bill clinton's sexual past affirmatively as a way to move past it? >> i always thought that hillary clinton running, including some of the record the clinton administration was a danger because of some of this stuff. since the clinton administration she's been a united states senator, secretary of state, she has a whole record of her own for 15 years to stand on.
i want to see her talk more about that record in the senate and as secretary of state as she runs for president more than what happened in the 1990s. the danger here is that there are a bunch of young voters under the age of 35 who really don't know a lot of details about a lot of this, so donald trump introducing this does open the door, this is the danger, does open the door for them to start learning in a bad way about the tail end of the clinton administration, abowith getting all the good stuff clinton did like reducing poverty and creating jobs. those are the things she wants people to talk about. they have to message that. >> young voters using the google and finding out things they don't like. my guests will stick around. trump wants you to remember who bill clinton was in the '90s but who was trump back then? let's hop in the time machine and ask people from that era. >> you don't mind me saying, they say he went into default. i'm in default for the past year. only by a month or whatever. i'm not afraid of it. >> in some ways he represents i guess what america's about.
>> he's helped people along the way. he doesn't just take, take, take. it's been give and take. >> he's always going to be that, he's always going to have to borrow. >> he has nice shoulders. >> the worst thing is getting involved with marla maples and ivana. that situation. >> best thing that could happen is if he moved to another country, got out of new york, because his name is too big, he's got to start somewhere else. everyone is getting mad at him here. >> in the end he's just another rich guy who's had his day in the sun and maybe it's setting. ♪ uh oh. oh. henry! oh my. good, you're good. back, back, back. (vo) according to kelley blue book, subaru has the highest resale value of any brand.
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shower, walking to work, you thought donald trump, you have won every battle you ever thought, why not run for governor or president? you ever think about that? >> people want me to all the time. >> what about you? >> i don't like it. think how controversial it could be. think about me with the women. >> that was classic "hardball" featuring donald trump and chris matthews back in 1998. the decade of the '90s has come up repeatedly in this campaign with donald trump reintroducing the scandals that rocked the clintons during bill clinton's two terms in the white house. turns out trump's '90s record not so clean, either. eric, nancy and jamal are back with me. let's talk about donald trump. let's go through these in order. on women, the daily beast recently ran a piece in which they talked about a book that was written in which ivana trump made some really pretty scary allegations. she says her remarks re-emerged when the daily beast reported in july 2015 that donald trump, she claims she was essentially
raped. she says -- she claimed she was raped by donald trump during an incident when they were married. she then later sort of took it back and said i recently read some comments attributed to me from nearly 30 years ago at a time of high tension during my divorce from donald and she said the story was not real. but there's a documentary that we actually feature called trump, what's the deal where they talk about the way donald trump related to women including ivana. it's not specific on the sexual allegations but take a listen. >> everyone that works for donald spends 50% of their time worrying about incurring donald's wrath except for one person. ivana trump. she spends 90% of her time trying to worry about how not to get donald to yell at her and how not to incur his wrath. >> when trump bought the plaza hotel he made her president. her salary he said would be $1 a year and all the dresses she could buy. a way of complimenting her and putting her in her place at the same time.
>> he treats people i have seen people treated horribly including his own family by him. extraordinary verbal assaults. >> amazing '90s hair. >> i was thinking about the hair, too. >> but the sort of thread that runs through a lot of the stories including the "new york times" story didn't reveal anything new but what it did reinforce is this notion of treating women as something sub-equal. ivana, you can run the casinos but i will give you $1. >> and dresses. >> so they don't have actual financial independence. >> i have read more than one occasion that part of the strain of their marriage had to do with the fact she really liked the work and she wanted to talk about the work and he want interested in a woman talking about the work. it was all about him. anything that sort of diverted from that, he lost interest. it's amazing to me that somehow, ivana has silenced herself, marla maples, i have been writing where's marla, why doesn't anybody get her on the
record? tiffany, the daughter he had with marla. i don't even know if there's pictures of her. the one thing that's clear i think is he does care about his daughter, although the remarks he's made about if she wasn't my daughter i would date her, that is very creepy. just based on that, i don't want someone like that in any position of power at all. i don't get a handle on him really respecting women outside of whether or not he perceives them to be attractive because of course, his idea of attractiveness is not everyone's idea of attractiveness. >> jamal, on the issue of what democrats ought to be doing or can do in this asymmetrical battle against donald trump, his product, his sort of background in terms of his business, he represents himself as a very successful businessman. we spoke with harry reid who cast major shade on that, saying he doesn't think he's successful at all. trump had a lot of products that he's created that didn't do well. he had trump university that's the subject of an ongoing lawsuit. help trump airlines, whose life span was 1989 to 1992.
you had something go trump.com which was supposed to be a search engine that was similar to google. that lasted for one year from 2006 to 2007. trump magazine from 2007 to 2009. the daily beast did this really amazing story about a vitamin supplement sort of multi-level marketing company that trump put together. i want to play a little bit of the video where he's selling you on the idea of taking these supplements and selling them as a business. >> the economic meltdown, greed, and ineptitude in the financial industry have sabotaged the dreams of millions of people. americans need a new plan. they need a new dream. the trump network wants to give millions of people renewed hope and with an exciting plan to opt out of the recession. let's get out of this recession right now. >> opt out of the recession. that wasn't in the '90s. >> so loud. >> the trump campaign --
>> he's yelling. >> they issued a statement saying that clip which was played was inaccurate, misleading, it wasn't true. so i had to put that out so there it is. jamal, is that something the democrats can actually use? can you go back, people fail in business. failure is part of the process. is it useful to democrats that he's had so many odd failing businesses? >> i think it's funny, people have talked about how hillary clinton speaks and her voice. i was making a joke there but donald trump yells all the time. he's the most peculiar speaking style of anybody that i can think of on the national stage. listen, i think barack obama, the president, has really found a way to go at trump which is just to belittle the guy. it is not an accident that every single product that he does has his name em blazoned on it in huge letters. he clearly has a lot of ego wrapped up in the work that he does. so the more we can belittle that, i think the more democrats will get a chance to get under his skin and keep making
mistakes. i think the american people, we are not going to spend $100 million trying to convince people something new about donald trump that they don't already know. the republicans won't be able to do that against hillary. the question is can we keep his numbers from growing of the people who are kind of soft republicans who just kind of had an icky feeling about the guy. that will be a big focus. >> i don't know that that's necessarily the case. most of the media coverage of him throughout his career has been glowing and sort of rev erential. there are things in that documentary about him mistreating polish immigrant workers, regular working class blue collar guys who were made to strip wires with their bare hands and come in contact with asbestos, messing over the contractor who redid the rink in central park, not paying him. that kind of stuff is kind of new to people. >> we talk about this double standard all the time. he doesn't treat women well and he's a failure at business. the clintons failed at
whitewater, lost money, that was an eight-year, $40 million investigation. you just rattled off nine businesses which were a complete failure. obviously he wasn't in government at that point. but you would think, i think this has been the press's biggest failure. they are getting better. if you go from last june to february, very little vetting 101. what's his business, how did he make his money, who does he owe favors to, what shady connections does he have. there was none of that. people like david k. johnston, tim o'brien have written amazing books about his life. people need to read those. >> there was a point in the '80s and '90s being rich made you a celebrity. lifestyles of the rich and famous. that is one of the reasons he gets such good coverage? >> that and he had the tv show so he had the double dose of celebrity. again, i think for the first three months, okay, he will have that celebrity glow. we have been doing this a year and we are still not really getting down to the nitty-gritty. how is he allowed to set the standard for this conversation
about how clintons treated women when his past is like that. every article should have three paragraphs explaining how trump -- >> we can do an entire segment also on the birther thing which has been let go. >> oh, my goodness. >> it's a huge test for the media covering one of our own because he's in the media. >> that is insidious. >> nancy, always so great to see you. up next, back in 2004 republicans used same sex marriage to galvanize their base to turn out for the presidential election. will that strategy make a comeback in 2016?
before i had the shooting, burning, pins-and-needles of diabetic nerve pain, these feet played shortstop in high school, learned the horn from my dad and played gigs from new york to miami. but i couldn't bear my diabetic nerve pain any longer. so i talked to my doctor and he prescribed lyrica. nerve damage from diabetes causes diabetic nerve pain. lyrica is fda approved to treat this pain, from moderate to even severe diabetic nerve pain. lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling or blurry vision. common side effects are dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs, and feet. don't drink alcohol while taking lyrica. don't drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. now i have less diabetic nerve pain.
but more important are the faces we will always remember. with booking.com's range rebel and key can wing it all the way to jordan and chelsea's wedding. rumble! road trip. there she is. uh oh, oh, oh, oh, what? so here is our road trip itinerary. what's this? a bunch of different places... nah, bro. we gotta go off-script. rip to shreds every motel, cabin and teepee, between here and the wedding. now get out of my seat. alright. (screams) road trip! whahhhh hahaha... road trip! the battle over transgender rights is becoming one of the most contentious issues in this election year. 11 states filed a lawsuit challenging the obama administration's directive that public schools must allow transgender students access to bathrooms that correspond to their gender identity.
on friday, kentucky said it will jump into the fray as well. the lawsuit accuses the administration of conspiring to turn workplaces and educational settings into laboratories for a massive social experiment. nine of the 11 states involved in the lawsuit are run by republican governors. some political analysts believe the issue could be used to galvanize the gop's conservative base in november. it would not be the first time the culture wars have played a key role in an election year. back in 2004, republicans faced a challenge of re-electing president george w. bush in the midst of an increasingly unpopular iraq war. >> i don't want to sound like i make no mistakes. i'm confident i have. >> what did they do? they took advantage of the backlash that began in february 2004 when san francisco's mayor gavin newsome began issuing marriage licenses to same sex
couples. in defiance of california law. >> if we were to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever, our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in america. >> backed by conservative christian activists and with the help of a little model legislation, republicans put constitutional amendments banning same sex marriage on the ballot in 11 states including perhaps most importantly, ohio. all 11 of the bills passed. all of them. more than 20 million americans voted on the measures and in some states, the marriage bans won by two to one margins, as some democrats and independents sided with conservatives. >> i think this election showed very clearly that the american people overwhelmingly reject any redefinition of marriage and want it to remain between a man and a woman. >> some analysts believe the bills helped put bush over the top. especially in ohio, where he beat john kerry by just 136,000 votes out of nearly six million.
beyond securing bush's re-election, republicans also picked up four senate seats and delayed the nationwide adoption of same sex marriage until the supreme court struck down the marriage bans in june of 2015. coming up, why do some states have both a primary and caucus? (engine winding up) (pilot talking to tower on radio) once you get out here... there's just one direction... forward. one time: now. and there's just one sound. you and us... together. telling the world... we're coming for you. ♪ everything your family touches sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products.
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like claim free rewards... or safe driving bonus checks. even a claim satisfaction guaranteeeeeeeeeee! in means protection plus unique extras only from an expert allstate agent. it's good to be in, good hands. the results are in. after the recanvas of the kentucky democratic primary at the request of the bernie sanders campaign, hillary clinton's still the winner. the sanders campaign responded with a little shade in their statement, saying we accept the results in kentucky. we are very pleased that we split the delegates in a state with a closed primary in which independents cannot vote and where secretary clinton defeated barack obama by 35 points in 2008. shade. the kentucky primary was the second election that had democrats seeing double this week, because hillary clinton also won a primary in washington, the same state where bernie sanders was declared the
winner of a caucus in march. confused? msnbc's steve kornacki will clear it up. >> you have heard bernie sanders say this a bunch of times. when there's high turnout we win, when there's low turnout we don't do that well. the interesting thing is we have had a couple tests, couple experiments in this primary season and caucus season that have put that claim to the test. i'm not sure the results match up. check this out. these are the states bernie sanders has won that are caucus states. he's racked up enormous margins in some of these. his biggest delegate hauls have come out of big wins in caucus states, sometimes winning states by 40 points. these are the caucus states he's won so far. here's the interesting thing. in two of these caucus states, nebraska and this week, washington, there have also been primaries, primaries were held later. the caucuses were the official contests, where the delegates were given out. nebraska and washington have their own official state primaries, democratic and republican primaries.
they require in those states that you put the presidential race on the primary ballot. no delegates are given out but every democrat who turns out to vote in the state primary votes in the presidential race. it's a preference vote. that's when they call it. check out these really interesting results. this is this week in washington state. they had the caucus back in march and it was a landslide. bernie sanders beat hillary clinton by 46 points. bernie sanders had been pointing to this win a lot this year because he's been saying take a look at a state like washington, i won by 46 points. the super delegates in that state should honor that 46 point win that i had. they have no business voting for hillary clinton. but then this week, washington held its primary, its nonbinding primary. and hillary clinton won the primary. here's the key. turnout for the caucuses in march, it was just over 200,000. turnout for the primary this week, remember, this is a mail-in primary so they haven't counted all the ballots yet, that's why you see the asterisk
there, turnout will be about four times higher. three or four times higher in the primary than in the caucuses. you got a much higher voter turnout. you got a much broader collection of voters participating in the democratic primary in washington state and when they were given the option, do you want to vote for hillary clinton or bernie sanders for president, more checked off hillary clinton's name. in the primary -- the caucus, it was a 46 point win for bernie sanders. in the primary, right now it is a six point advantage for hillary clinton. not all the ballots are cast yet but that's a much, much, much higher turnout and it favors hillary clinton, not the only state where we have seen this. nebraska, look at that. the caucuses in march, bernie sanders won by 14 points. they also had their own nonbinding primary. waits it was a couple weeks ago. hillary clinton won that. more turnout, about four times higher turnout for the primary than the caucus. it's the same thing. bernie sanders has won a number of these caucus states, most of the caucus states don't turn around and have the primaries as
well. but in the two states where we have seen it, the two big win caucus states for bernie sanders where they then held primaries were a lot more people turned out, hillary clinton's two for two in those. >> thank you very much, steve. joining me, media matters senior fellow eric boehlert and jamal simmons. jamal, how is that small d democratic? let's go back and look at washington state one more time. 230,000 people voted in the caucus, bernie sanders won. 1.4 million people and counting because they're not done, voted in the primary, hillary clinton won. why is it the state of washington, why is it fair for them to award the delegates based on what 230,000 people, the majority of them decided versus the majority of 1.4 million people? >> you ask a really good question. i wish i had a really good answer for you. here's the thing. everybody knew the rules. as a friend of mine told me who
was part of this meeting, when bernie sanders, martin o'malley, hillary clinton and all the staff teams went to the dnc, they were given a three-ring binder which had the rules for every state, primary and caucus. they all knew what to do going in, how to win and how the delegates would be allocated. what's interesting to me is that bernie sanders' troops now say the system is rigged, they are working against his interests. here you have cases where hillary clinton wins pretty decisively in a primary but gets less delegates than bernie sanders does which i think argues against the sanders case, the system is rigged in favor of hillary clinton. >> pete, you have a radio show in which you talk with a lot of bernie sanders supporters. >> yeah. yeah. yeah. >> i'm sure you hear all the time the system is rigged. in a way, don't the caucuses rig the system in favor of an insurgent candidate like barack obama or bernie sanders? >> i think they definitely do. i also have traveled a lot across the country, when we took the radio show to college campuses, these young kids who
are really passionate, many of them joining the political movement for the first time, they don't understand necessarily how it works. one thing they have often is more time and they are passionate conditiand can argue. i don't like caucuses. they sound like a way to alienate yourself from your communities. i don't think -- most of us can't make them. we are busy. most people prefer going and voting in a primary. bernie wins in caucuses, loses in primaries. hard to make the argument even for myself who has been a big bernie supporter that caucuses are more democratic. >> what you have is the sanders campaign wanting to push back against the rules of the game that they say are against them. they want a change to the super delegate system. they want changes to the personnel who will be at the dnc. they haven't asked for changes in the caucuses. >> i think the issue, i think the number of delegates is all settled. the clinton campaign isn't complaining that they got robbed in washington. but going forward, i think there
should be a question about these caucuses. i'm not sure who going forward is going to ferociously argue we have to have caucus. here's the problem. democrats line up up and down the line when republicans try to make it harder to vote. when they close polling places, i.d. laws, because people shouldn't have to spend three hours to vote. well, that's pretty much what a caucus is, it seems to me. >> but they know more, eric. their opinions are more valid than those who just go and vote in between other priorities. why are we not giving people who have more time to do the research and to read, those people's vote should matter twice. >> i want to stay with this idea of knowing the rules in advance. i will stay with you, pete. bernie sanders backers have filed an emergency injunction in federal court in california, even though they knew the rules, they knew when the deadline was to register. you have to register and pick a party. it can be temporary. you can do it just for a day.
now they want the deadline moved back. they want the rules essentially changed so that people who didn't make the deadline who are unaffiliated can vote. what do you make of that kind of action in which we are saying nope, we knew the rules but change them? >> i can't defend it. i want to but like jamal said, people did know the rules for the most part. we can talk for hours about where we feel like hillary had the advantage and so on. but i'm happy and i want all these bernie supporters out there who are going to just hate on me for saying these things, here's what we won. we won by having as you covered earlier all these great folks that are going to be invited, at least five, to the platform committee. it's amazing that bill mckibbon will be at the platform committee. this is a huge win. all you bernie supporters, understand the significance of that. most people don't pay attention to mat foplatforms. that's a huge triumph for progressives. >> you know, jamal, there is this sort of ongoing debate about the fairness of the
process. one of the ones i hear the most on my twitter feed, i hear a lot from my friends in the sanders camp, they are usually not happy with me but they respond and talk to me and closed primaries comes up a lot. as a democrat, as a democratic strategist, why should democrats allow people who are not democrats to vote in their primaries? >> yeah, exactly. that's exactly right. the reality here is the democratic party is an institution and people join the party, affiliate with the party, then get to have a say in who the democratic party nominee is. i'm all for addition. i want the new people bernie is bringing. i want them to participate. i want them to join the democratic party and have their voices heard. i think senator sanders ought to encourage them to do that. i tell you, i'm very sympathetic to senator sanders' arguments. the question is to me, if he doesn't win this primary, will he remain a democrat and will he help other democratic nominees or candidates for senate in the house up and down the ballot?
will he participate in the party process or did he just use the democratic party to get his message out during this campaign and will he go back to being an independent. >> i'm one of those people who got alienated. i want you to tell me to my face, you should have known as an independent, you are not registered as a democrat, you would have had to change that a year ago. i couldn't vote for bernie sanders and i'm in the media, i cover politics, i'm a comedian. i'm not as smart as you guys but i should have known that? maybe it should have been my individual responsibility to know i needed to be a registered democrat but i didn't know it. and nobody told me. >> wait a minute. it's not your responsibility. well, in some ways it is your responsibility to figure it out. but it's really the sanders campaign responsibility because they are the ones who knew the rules. if they are going to be appealing to people they should have been educating their voters about how to participate. >> i would have had to change that a year ago. >> he was running -- this is one of the questions, jamal makes the point, the deadline was last october. bernie sanders has been running since last april. they have known new york was coming the entire time. so if you didn't get a piece of
mail which is what campaigns typically do, you get a phone call, a mailer, there will be something dropped at your door. if the campaign didn't do that, is that a failing of the campaign? >> i guess so. i did not get that memo. i interviewed bernie before on the show. i never heard that from anybody. i sat outside my place crying with a bernie sanders sign and i was arrested because you can't do that. >> is there an argument to be made that democrats should open up their process to independents and that it would sort of enrich the party to have people like pete be able to vote without having to formally become democrat? >> you look at this patchwork approach we have gone through, some states have primary and caucus, you think let's pick one. we could probably get rid of the caucus. there's not a real -- >> except you have to make states pay for the primary. that's the problem. the parties pay for a caucus. the state won't pay for a primary, you're stuck. >> you get past the caucus, you think how will we pick between open and closed primary? there is never going to be agreement on that. that debate will go on and on.
>> that gives us more to talk about. thank you very much to all of you. up next, the president makes history and later, we will tell you who won the week. >> the best way to bring joy into your life on weekend mornings is to watch joy reid right here on msnbc. you show up. you stay up. you listen. you laugh. you worry. you do whatever it takes to take care of your family. and when it's time to plan for your family's future, we're here for you. we're legalzoom, and for over 10 years we've helped families just like yours with wills and living trusts. so when you're ready, start with us. doing the right thing has never been easier. legalzoom. legal help is here. fight heartburn fast. with tums chewy delights. the mouthwatering soft chew that goes to work in seconds to conquer heartburn fast.
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let's go to jamal. who won the week? >> i got to say at the end of the day it's trump. trump drove the narrative. he drove the message. he had this great thing with bernie, the possibility of the bernie-trump debate. i think he really drove the whole campaign this week. >> how dare you, sir? let's go to -- >> he stole my answer. >> what? two people think trump on the week. >> i also think trump won the week. a lot of that has to do with the
fact hillary clinton is still kind of having this terrible week, this idea people are still talking about her e-mails, this idea she's still fighting off trump while fighting off bernie. if this debate had happened and there was bernie on the stage and trump on the stage and hillary nowhere to be found when people had these issues of the fact they feel like she doesn't answer questions already, i think that trump clearly won the week. and i think he's kind of playing the democratic party, which is something i think no one would have been able to see several months ago. >> go back quick before we get to our final, go back to you, jamal. did hillary clinton win in a sense by that debate not happening? >> she won by that debate not happening, it was better than the alternative for her. but i will say on this i agree. the one thing hillary clinton is good at is debates. i'm not sure why they keep ducking debates. it's their best format. >> they want to starve the sanders campaign of oxygen. >> i think that's the answer. you just gave the answer to jamal's question. why do you have guests? i mean, i just want to -- why am i here? >> i get lonesome in the studio
and i need someone to talk to. who won? >> i'm glad to be here and i think out of the box i think this one -- and it's not hillary, and it's not trump. it's the president of the united states who went to vietnam and went to japan. and i thought that trip got a lot of attention, as it deserved, and especially in vietnam where he announced a whole bunch of things in talking about the trade deal. obviously in japan, hiroshima, the first president to go to hiroshima, i think president obama just continued to do what he does. and i want to say on my radio show this week sam waterston of "law & order" said president barack obama is the greatest president in a generation. i happen to agree. i didn't always feel that way about this president. i think we're going to miss him. i think that's why approval rate is going up. >> there's great consensus among democrats and independents they're going to miss him. his temperament is so perfect. >> he's -- what he's had to deal with and he remains cool, i don't know anybody like that. anybody. >> at the same time he also drives conservatives crazy.
jamal, bring you back into this as well because going to hiroshima, that's just the kind of thing -- >> apologizing. >> exactly. he seems to be apologizing for america. in the end, jamal, do you see republicans who are anxious about trump looking back at this guy's presidency and saying, you know what, he had a first class temperament at the end of the day. we kind of miss him. >> i think it's going to take time, four, five years down the line when people have let go some of the political animosity, i think barack obama will be regarded as one of the greatest presidents that we've had. certainly the greatest president of this century and maybe the last hundred years because all the things he did to unwind the mistakes that george w. bush made and got us into trouble, we said at the time when bush went into iraq it's going to be a generation for us to get out of this. it's taking us a generation to get out of and it barack obama is part of the way we will do that. >> what's interesting too is, you know, one of the things donald trump is running on is that he too wants to correct the mistakes of the george w. bush administration. it's amazing how toxic -- >> oh, stop.
he's not running on anything. when you say he wants to do this, who knows what he wants to do. >> that's a good point. >> that's the point. that's what's fun ability analyzing this campaign, you have no idea what donald trump thinks. i want to undo this, unwind that, you have no idea. this is tremendous, that's terrific, it's not serious. that's why when you look at president barack obama and what he's doing especially in this trip, that's why i think he won the week because he takes the bully pulpit, he takes air force one to asia to make this pivot as they say. >> yep. >> and, you know, in the future if there's a trump president, where exactly is he taking air force one to bring attention? that's a huge concern to us. >> we know he's doing it in all goals -- >> go to north korea, this place is tremendous, i wouldn't change a thing. >> that brings me to my actual correct answer. >> oh, it is. >> i say elizabeth warren. i probably could say her every week because elizabeth warren, i think, gave the textbook clinic on how you treat donald trump. i think it goes to something you were saying, pete, you don't treat him as sort of a traditional republican presidential candidate, or even as a serious person.
she has used ridicule and also used social media in exactly the same ways that donald trump uses it to troll him mercilessly. and i feel like she's teaching everyone something. >> and he has since called her goofy, pocahontas, and this is my favorite, she's got a big mouth. that's how you know someone's getting under his skin. >> elizabeth warren for v.p. >> there you go. >> the issue is kind of this idea you don't know what trump's plans are. you know hillary clinton is a policy wonk. she was secretary of state. hillary, you're smart, but the point is donald trump kind of understands my pain. so i think elizabeth warren kind of trolling him is a little -- >> we'll let you go home now. that is our show for today. thanks for joining us. tune in tomorrow for "a.m. joy" same time, same channel, we'll talk to levar burton of the new
revival of the "roots" and next alex witt takes a look at what hillary clinton may be looking for in a running mate. hillary-warren maybe. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ this is how it begins... with a mighty roar... that tells the world... we're coming for you. when your symptoms start... distracting you? doctors recommend taking ...non-drowsy claritin every day of your allergy season. claritin provides powerful,
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in means getting more from your car insurance with the all-powerful drivewise app. it's good to be in, good hands. good day everyone. i'm alex witt here in new york at msnbc world headquarters. happening now a big storm sweeping right toward the southeast u.s. a tropical system threatening the carolina coast this holiday weekend with hundreds of thousands in its potential path. join me right now with the latest on that storm system meteorologist bonny schneider. how is it looking, bonnie. >> this just in, we have the latest advisory to tell you still a tropical depression. tropical storm bonnie has not formed just yet, but it will later this afternoon. take a look and you can see the bulk of the convection or the thunderstorms are working their way further off to the north and west. in fact, the movement has slowed down a bit in our latest advisory 13 miles per hour. earlier it was moving a little faster at 14. this was to be expected. and also a lot of this